Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

sightless: someone forwarded me this. what do you think of it? i agree and disagree with some of the things in there [url]http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=13941[/url]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

GO CAMPBELL'S SOUP!!!

[URL]http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/81526/Goodbye-1-Billion-Salary-Hello-Campbell-Soup[/URL]

[quote][URL="http://finance.yahoo.com/q?s=CPB"]Campbell Soup Co.[/URL] was the only stock in the S&P 500 that escaped yesterday's historic sell-off. That’s right: 499 fell, and just one rose.[/quote]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

what's interesting is that, as far as dobbs goes, he's at least a little bit more informed than most of america is, you know...the one's who don't want this passed. if dobbs is a dumbshit, what then of the rest of america?

if someone competent and studied could explain how quickly this correction would last...i'd probably not support any form of bailout.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;656229]Hey everyone did you see it. We all woke up today and everything is fine. Still no bailout, wallstreet is up almost 300. We don't need a bailout. The major players got together yesterday and caused a financial meltdown to scare the shit out of everybody to further push the bailout.

Remember we must say no to this bailout or we will be much more trouble then we are now.

Let's put it this way has anything that the Bush Administration said ever really panned out??[/quote]

it's rosh hashannah dude. most people in wall street took the day off. as did the market, which waits to see what the government will try to do next. it means nothing. also, see Miroslav's post.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=Miroslav;656452]GO CAMPBELL'S SOUP!!!

[URL]http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticker/article/81526/Goodbye-1-Billion-Salary-Hello-Campbell-Soup[/URL][/QUOTE]

You want to know something really funny? When shit started to go south yesterday, [URL="http://www.wonkette.com"]Wonkette [/URL]implored its readers to go [URL="http://wonkette.com/403122/world-collapsing-rapidly"]buy canned goods[/URL] when the shit hit the fan, and lo and behold, [URL="http://wonkette.com/403133/wonkette-canned-soup-index-wcsi-soars"]Campbell's soup kicks ass[/URL]!

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

^that's because commodities are going to skyrocket. I posted about cambells yesterday in GYY. it's a damned assured thing.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

When they push the bailout on us again, they should make a major modification to it: they should give us equity in the firms that we bail out, and it should be proportional to just how crappy the firm is and how favorable the nominal bailout amount is to them. In other words, you take our cash and give us crap, and we will take your firm. The ownership stake at least poses a real upside to the broader public over the longer term and will help defray the costs. Furthermore, it has a punitive aspect to it that punishes those who are in the worst shape - and discourages them from getting a free ride and avoid folding, like they should.

My point is: it should be a targetted and somewhat punitive process sufficient only to stave off collapse, not a blank check to give everyone a free ride.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

^^^ then the lobbyists on the inside will own it. It will still be corrupt.

[B][U]For the Bailout[/U][/B]

George Bush - Loser that nothing he has done has worked McCain - Loser I don't think I need to say more Paulson- used to be CEO of Goldman Sachs Bernanke - said a year ago that the housing sector was fine

And we are supposed to believe these idiots guys?? Come on don't give in to the fire and brimstone speech that we all heard after 9/11. If we don't act now then the house of cards will collapse. Please. We should be saving our bullets for later on when it gets really bad. We have to take some lumps and here they are before us.

[B][U]Against the Bailout[/U][/B]

Joseph Stiglitz - Nobel Prize winning economist Jim Rogers - Legendary Investor Ron Paul - Need I say more

I think it is obvious whos side we should be on. Corporate cronies or good honest people. For all you out there saying that "whoever is against the bailout doesn't know what they are talking about" here is a great article from Joseph Stiglitz (Nobel Prize Winner Economics, and John Bates Clark Medal) who is thinking the same way I am apparently.

[URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/sep/30/marketturmoil.wallstreet[/URL]

It will be funny to here what everyone has to say about this now with such credibility backing me it will be very difficult if not imposiible to counter.

Here is a great interview with Jim Rogers as well.

[URL]http://www.cnbc.com/id/26969555[/URL]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=Miroslav;656579]When they push the bailout on us again, they should make a major modification to it: they should give us equity in the firms that we bail out, and it should be proportional to just how crappy the firm is and how favorable the nominal bailout amount is to them. In other words, you take our cash and give us crap, and we will take your firm. The ownership stake at least poses a real upside to the broader public over the longer term and will help defray the costs. Furthermore, it has a punitive aspect to it that punishes those who are in the worst shape - and discourages them from getting a free ride and avoid folding, like they should.

My point is: it should be a targetted and somewhat punitive process sufficient only to stave off collapse, not a blank check to give everyone a free ride.[/QUOTE]

highly highly doubt that will happen... just looks like they added more explanatory things that have nothing to do with the mortgage problem...

"The sweeteners include tax cuts, Alternative Minimum Tax relief and raising the FDIC insurance cap to $250,000."

Sounds like this is just a buffed up more bullshit version of the earlier draft.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;656770]For all you out there saying that "whoever is against the bailout doesn't know what they are talking about" here is a great article from Joseph Stiglitz (Nobel Prize Winner Economics, and John Bates Clark Medal) who is thinking the same way I am apparently.

It will be funny to here what everyone has to say about this now with such credibility backing me it will be very difficult if not imposiible to counter.[/quote] Just to clarify - I don't have a problem with the way Stiglitz and most other real economists argue against the bailout. There are valid ways and also invalid ways to argue against (or for) the bailout. I've really only really had a problem with how you argue for it.

Also, it have to say that it strikes me as short-sighted of you to pick just one individual on your side and say "Look, (fill in the blank) is against the bailout; therefore, my opinion is now difficult if not impossible to counter." This is really not valid supporting evidence your own opinion on this matter. The fact is that there are many bright, famous, and expertly trained people on both sides of the argument - for and against the bailout. Warren Buffett, for instance, is for the bailout. This is not a black and white issue, and reasonable, intelligent people may look at the same facts and still disagree on their intepretation of the future.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

And by the way, here is a GREAT article that everyone should read - by someone [I]against[/I] the bailout:

[URL]http://www.thecuttingedgenews.com/index.php?article=796&pageid=89&pagename=Features[/URL]

He's right about how we got into this mess. He's right that Greenspan and government meddling in the markets fundamentally caused this mess. And he's right that Paulson is no hero, and his ilk should be hung out to dry. And he's right that institutions should not be too big to fail, and that the government has created a moral hazard by bailing people out.

You might ask: why am I agreeing with him, if I've been supporting the bailout so far? Because, as Rep. Jim Marshall recently said, "we can't go 'cold turkey' on credit." I absolutely think that we need to get to the state of the world where people bear responsibility for their actions and there are never any bailouts again, but I fear that we can't do it overnight without destroying our economy, given how far down this path we've gone.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Hey to be honest with everyone here I am against the bailout but even if the bailout had to happen I would be ok with it as long as:

1. Proper plan was put together to show how they are addressing the problem
2. The people responsible for why this happened are held accountable and their assets stripped and thrown in jail. Whoever is responsible (not just individuals but corporations) for this should be tar and feathered.

Number 2 is my biggest thing.

Oh ya Miro Buffet would be for the bill of course.. Buffet is a snake and would sell his mother for more profits.. I don't listen to one thing Buffet has to say.

Kucinich said a great thing today "We borrow money from banks, to give to banks, so they can give us $700 billion in toxic debt from all over the world, I couldn't vote for this." He also stated that this bill was immoral.

The smartest and real economists know that you have to address this issue from the bottom up not from the top down.. none of that money is going to trickle down to lowly US citizens. Top down is a bandaid. Bottom up is building on a strong foundation.. no foundation no nothing.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

So...the revised bailout passed. One of you finance nerds explain what this means to me now. What has changed?

Tbh, even with my limited financial knowledge, I was ready to hunker down for the fire and brimstone- fuck wallstreet.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

sad that they had to add a bunch of other bullshit that has nothing to do with the bailout in order for it to pass.... but then again its american politics =\

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Jenks;657033]So...the revised bailout passed. One of you finance nerds explain what this means to me now. What has changed?

Tbh, even with my limited financial knowledge, I was ready to hunker down for the fire and brimstone- fuck wallstreet.[/quote] They just added a bunch of stuff in an attempt to sweeten the package for Main Street - and thus to make the House more likely to pass it when this goes back for a vote. For one thing, you should get temporary FDIC protection up to $250K. There are also a veritable shitload of tax breaks in there for just about anything you can imagine, which may perhaps benefit you as a consumer or as a business owner.

Of course, the downside of that is that it will just further increase the federal deficit. Oh well, the next generation of kids can work hard to pay it off.

As far as the original $700B bailout part, I think it's very similar... I think it has two oversight boards now. Anyone know if they included equity stakes in it? If not, they should have. My primary concern with it is that in our rush to avert financial collapse, we may go too far the other way and give a free ride to everyone and his brother in the banking world. I want it both ways; I want enough of a bailout to stabilize things, but not such a big one that the moral hazard problems become enormous and seriously impede the de-leveraging of the nation, which needs to occur over time.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

ugh. it passed the Senate. Onto the House for approval. I think it is going to be win-win. I can only hope the house says no. I can only hope.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=Miroslav;657054] Main Street - .[/QUOTE]

^Stop saying this, please.

I know it's Obama's fault. i'm really sick of it.

"...from Wall Street to Main Street!!" :lol: :Die:

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Out of the 700 Billion dollars ... why can't it be divided to Americains? In average each person would gain 250,000.00 after taxes.

I vote with my money.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=asdf_admin;657071]Out of the 700 Billion dollars ... why can't it be divided to Americains? In average each person would gain 250,000.00 after taxes.

I vote with my money.[/quote]

do honestly trust americans to prudently use it, save it, and pay back the loans? 8)

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[COLOR=white]I don't think our total population is made of Tony Montana's. Though that might create them.[/COLOR]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

gee $250K temps on the FDIC and THEN they can borrow money from the Treasury...

anyone want to bet a few more banks fail in the interim?

I hope the House doesn't pass this...I really really hope....

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=asdf_admin;657071]Out of the 700 Billion dollars ... why can't it be divided to Americains? In average each person would gain 250,000.00 after taxes.

I vote with my money.[/quote] If you accept the premise that there is a serious liquidity crisis systemically crippling the financial system in this nation, then giving you that money will not do much good...you'll lose the vast majority if not all of it anyways.

[quote=FM;657130]gee $250K temps on the FDIC and THEN they can borrow money from the Treasury...

anyone want to bet a few more banks fail in the interim?

I hope the House doesn't pass this...I really really hope....[/quote] Alas, you're probably out of luck. I get the sense that they will repackage this thing as many times as it takes.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think we're in very dangerous territory whether we pass it or not... Danger in passing it comes from the standpoint of our Constitution; danger in not passing it comes from our money system. It looks pretty horrible either way...but you all know my thoughts on this already.

Here's a sobering read: [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/01/beck.future/index.html[/URL]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=asdf_admin;657071]Out of the 700 Billion dollars ... why can't it be divided to Americains? In average each person would gain 250,000.00 after taxes.

I vote with my money.[/quote]

how do you figure you get 250K? only 2.8 million would get that 250K (before taxes). if we say 200 mil people will each get a share of the 700 bil, that is $3,500 per person.

[quote=Miroslav;657253]If you accept the premise that there is a serious liquidity crisis systemically crippling the financial system in this nation, then giving you that money will not do much good...you'll lose the vast majority if not all of it anyways.

Alas, you're probably out of luck. I get the sense that they will repackage this thing as many times as it takes.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think we're in very dangerous territory whether we pass it or not... Danger in passing it comes from the standpoint of our Constitution; danger in not passing it comes from our money system. It looks pretty horrible either way...but you all know my thoughts on this already.

Here's a sobering read: [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/01/beck.future/index.html[/URL][/quote]

i read that this morning. actually a pretty good article fom beck

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

everybody should get the $3,500 to help out with the inflation problem everyone in the US is going to feel. Warren Buffet interview last night on Charlie Rose was for opening the faucet whenever there is a problem. Then asked about inflation and he admitted that inflation is going to be a huge problem in the coming months.

It is unfortunate that the US government isn't listening to the people. According to the calls made to senators and emails to the House website was 95-1 not in favor of the bailout. Now that it is the first quarter of a football game and the US has used all its trick plays it is apparent that the fallout will be much greater now.

What else is funny is it passes the Senate and the market is still down -235..

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;657300]everybody should get the $3,500 to help out with the inflation problem everyone in the US is going to feel.[/quote] I'm sorry, I know you don't like it when I do this - but I have to correct your statement above. You have it backwards. Printing up cash to give everyone $3,500 is not going to help out with the inflation problem - [I]it's going to cause the inflation problem[/I].

You can look at inflation in two parts: monetary inflation and price inflation. Monetary inflation is an increase in the overall money circulating supply. Price inflation is what you see at the stores when stuff costs more and more. It generally well accepted that the former inflation (monetary) to a large degree leads to the latter (price) over time. To take an extreme example: if everyone's salary were to double tomorrow, Subway is going to wise up quick and not just keep charging you only $5.00 for a footlong. Your real purchasing power will remain constant. Warren Buffett knows this, and this is why he was conceding that inflation may be a problem in the future.

Btw - it's no different with the bailout bill. It, too, risks pumping up inflation...as does any action by the government that floods the market with money. Of course, the other side of the coin is that if we do nothing and the economy folds, we could see aggressive deflation. And that's probably even worse.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;657253]Alas, you're probably out of luck. I get the sense that they will repackage this thing as many times as it takes.

I have mixed feelings about it. I think we're in very dangerous territory whether we pass it or not... Danger in passing it comes from the standpoint of our Constitution; danger in not passing it comes from our money system. It looks pretty horrible either way...but you all know my thoughts on this already.

Here's a sobering read: [URL]http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/01/beck.future/index.html[/URL][/quote]

very true after seeing round 1 and now what they've been adding and slipping into this version...doesn't pass even by the slimmest of votes, try again.

If it doesn't pass, we're looking at that 8-9000 Dow range which would more then wipe out the entire recent bull run in a little over a year.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=runningman;657300]everybody should get the $3,500 to help out with the inflation problem everyone in the US is going to feel. [/QUOTE]

can you please stop talking out of your ass... please.

if you had even 1 economics class in college (assuming you went to college) you would know if you print more money or give money to people, prices rise.

its basic economics 101.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

great i can't wait for more expensive gas and everything to cost more.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

what is fucking killing me is the amount of "pork" spending attached.

when they (congress) were sitting there, staring at potentially the worst thing ever to happen to the world since hitler, who was the first person to tack on some outside spending, who allowed this (party leaders), and why the fuck did they find it neccessary to stall the bill , facing impending doom. i mean that this bill should have been hammered through with no tack on spending. every senator and rep who has an ammendment on this bill should be thrown in prison. and you know what, next month america will prove its stupidity by giving these two parties even more power....

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=runningman;657381]great i can't wait for more expensive gas and everything to cost more.[/QUOTE]

yup.

if you increase the money supply, in the short run, yes more money = good.

in the long run, ie. more than 1-year, prices will rise because of it.

oh yea, do you honestly think the government will give you 3500$ tax free? you have to pay taxes on it.

just like that retarded "stimulus" check everyone got earlier this year, yes it makes people feel good to get money, but you have to pay taxes on it because it is considered income... which is why the whole stimulus crap, i think, was retarded.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

umm. we are not increasing the money supply.......we are shifting cash to maintian an asset.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

^^ In simple theory, yes. But in reality, it will probably never be that simple. There is major concern that this bailout will further weaken the US dollar. In general, weak currency tends to lead back to inflation over time.

btw, everyone's been bringing in their expert against intervening in the markets... so here's one of the experts for it! None other than Warren Buffett, who has arguably demonstrated that he's not the stupidest human on the planet when it comes to economics and finance.

It's a sobering read. In his view, $700B may not be enough. His idea of teaming private investors together with the Treasury has merit imo.

[B]Buffett: My fix for the economy[/B] [URL]http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/02/news/newsmakers/buffett.fortune/?postversion=2008100214[/URL]

[quote]"It will cost more to solve this problem today than it did two weeks ago," said Buffett, referring to when Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson's first proposed that Congress help rescue Wall Street following the collapse in recent months of Lehman Brothers and Bear Stearns and the sale of Merrill Lynch. "It's that bad. If we don't get it solved next week, I may go back to delivering papers."[/quote]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=Miroslav;657393]^^ correct.

btw, everyone's been bringing in their expert against intervening in the markets... so here's one of the experts for it! None other than Warren Buffett, who has arguably demonstrated that he's not the stupidest human on the planet when it comes to economics and finance.

It's a sobering read. In his view, $700B may not be enough. His idea of teaming private investors together with the Treasury has merit imo.

[B]Buffett: My fix for the economy[/B] [URL]http://money.cnn.com/2008/10/02/news/newsmakers/buffett.fortune/?postversion=2008100214[/URL][/QUOTE]

i gotta read that later on today... saw it breifly on cnn.com

and for the record, i am very indifferent about this bailout thing.

yes i see the point in helping our credit resources but the future is not written in stone, so i dont know if getting our money back will happen or not.

i also do not like it that they had to put other crap in there that has nothing to do with the bill in order to get people to pass it, but i have voiced that opinion earlier in this thread. =\

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

also, i think you can watch that Charlie Rose interview (as well as all of his interviews) on his website for free:

[url]http://www.charlierose.com/home/[/url]

very very informative interviews, Charlie Rose is quite possibly the best interviewer i have ever seen.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Charlie Rose is awesome.. I think he is the real deal or at least the closest thing to the real deal when it comes to the media.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Just passed by the House as well

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Was it the version with the extra $150billion of pork attached?

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=MJDub;657946]Was it the version with the extra $150billion of pork attached?[/quote]

You betcha!! ;) Ask any hockey mom and she'll tell ya!!

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

thank goodness the 1929 great depression will not happen now.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Huggie Smiles;657977]thank goodness the 1929 great depression will not happen now.[/quote]

lol

2009 great depression?