[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Its sad to see people believe that the US attacked Iraq to protect the world from Evil Saddam , you guys are in deep shit in Iraq so let's see how you can get out of it, by the way wait soon for a new episod of the defamation Saga , Iran owns the nuclear bomb and we have to bomb them.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=Bululu;445732]Its sad to see people believe that the US attacked Iraq to protect the world from Evil Saddam , you guys are in deep shit in Iraq so let's see how you can get out of it, by the way wait soon for a new episod of the defamation Saga , Iran owns the nuclear bomb and we have to bomb them.[/quote]
It's equally sad to watch the world sit by and do nothing after they have demanded that a country disarm itself, and allow inspectors to verify it. What is the point of drafting 17 resolutions, and never taking action? What is the lesson taken away by other countries? Ignore the UN.... because they will never take action. Fuck them, right? :roll:
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Well I for one do not feel any more comfort with the fact that Bush possesses a higher or even equal amount of wmd capabilities as Saddam did... and if I was in a position of power in any country named i.e. Iran, Iraq or N. Korea...I would refuse to disarm or allow weapons inspectors in! Why the hell should I allow them to look under my bed! I mean look at Iraq today are people there any happier, have they received any benefits of the democracy...no...you can argue that not enough time has passed. But nevertheless...its even worse than it was before...I mean far from that I support Saddam or the Iranians but at least Saddam kept the different factions in check...same as many before him (Stalin in the USSR, Tito in Yugoslavia...) as soon as he was removed they all claimed their piece of the pie if they tried that nationalist shit while he was around they were clipped and it hurt...
I mean I even spoke to some Iraqis that arrived to the UK recently and they claimed that devisions were never this strong even while Saddam was around...
Also I believe its beneficial to the west (and when I say the west I don't just meant the US) to have a destabilized situation in the middle east so that they can protect their own interests i.e. Oil...while preventing Arab's from getting organized and getting whats due to them...more money.
This is clear if we look at Saudi Arabia where fucking psychos are in power (one of which I met...a son of a sheik went to school with me and showed me photos of dog hunting with an M1 tank!!! absolutely insane- a gift of the US govt)....they stay in power through US protection.
Actually if you look just look at this [URL]http://www.isis-europe.org/ftp/Download/arms%20exports%20post%209%2011%20-%20ESR%2011.pdf[/URL]
I think you might get a clearer picture!
Re: All this talk about Iran...
In response:
The USA has so much more WMD capability, it's not even funny.
So you don't think the United Nations should have any weight in global affairs? OK.... fine. I agree with you 100%. So let's disband the UN, then.... because if it isn't going to have any bearing, why even have it in the first place?
The issue of benefits to Iraqi people depend largely on who you ask. Certainly the sunni people are not very happy. But the Kurds and Shi'a populations are quite happy to have Saddam gone.
About oil? You bet your fucking ass it's about oil. And I'm fucking glad someone is worried about it..... because oil is the single most important factor to human life on this planet...... PERIOD. Without oil, we die..... end of story. This isn't some joke.... oil is like the lifeblood of the modernized world. Every time I listen to someone complain about "no blood for oil" I just laugh... because they don't even get it. They don't understand how important oil is to our world. If you cut off our oil supplies tomorrow, it would be less than 1 week before this planet descended into total anarchy. Millions and millions of people would die, from starvation and exposure to the elements. Economies would collapse. It would be the end of the world. So..... yeah.... we're fighting over oil. And I'm fucking glad we are, because I want to keep living.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
When I talked about the US and Saddam having WMD's I was just making a point that I think both Bush and Saddam are practically equal lunatics and that I don't sleep any better at night knowing that Saddam has(had) them or that Bush does...so I wasn't talking about quantities.
Yeah OK oil is crucial but who are you or anyone else to decide the faith of the world as you so bluntly put it?
I for one would prefer not to have someone else fighting for oil in my name so thank you but no thank you...
If you look at arms sales by the US post 9/11 you will see that the US sold apache helicopters to Turkey which it openly announced will be used to fight the Kurdish rebells the US is so eager to save in Iraq...hipocracy at its best form.
Who made you or George W. in charge of deciding what the world needs or doesn't need and how to best satisfy those needs?
O.K. it might be what we rely on so heavily (the US more than others) but why is it you who decides who gets to live and who has to die, who gets to eat who gets to starve?
Policing the world is an exclusive duty of the west in which the US takes incredible satisfaction?!:what
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=subterFUSE;445965]In response:
The USA has so much more WMD capability, it's not even funny.
So you don't think the United Nations should have any weight in global affairs? OK.... fine. I agree with you 100%. So let's disband the UN, then.... because if it isn't going to have any bearing, why even have it in the first place?
The issue of benefits to Iraqi people depend largely on who you ask. Certainly the sunni people are not very happy. But the Kurds and Shi'a populations are quite happy to have Saddam gone.
4.[B] About oil? You bet your fucking ass it's about oil. And I'm fucking glad someone is worried about it..... because oil is the single most important factor to human life on this planet...... PERIOD. Without oil, we die..... end of story. This isn't some joke.... oil is like the lifeblood of the modernized world. Every time I listen to someone complain about "no blood for oil" I just laugh... because they don't even get it. They don't understand how important oil is to our world. If you cut off our oil supplies tomorrow, it would be less than 1 week before this planet descended into total anarchy. Millions and millions of people would die, from starvation and exposure to the elements. Economies would collapse. It would be the end of the world. So..... yeah.... we're fighting over oil. And I'm fucking glad we are, because I want to keep living.[/B][/quote]
The imperialist is strong with you, padawan.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
YOU WANT TO KEEP LIVING Over the fucking dead bodys of other people you dick head ?????
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=Bululu;446253]YOU WANT TO KEEP LIVING Over the fucking dead bodys of other people you dick head ?????[/quote]
Don't act like you are all pure and innocent. You live in Europe. If you didn't have access to oil, your fate would be identical to what I described.
I'm just being honest about the situation. Oil is so important, we can't hardly begin to fathom what life would be like without it.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Lets keep it civilized boys and girls...
I mean none of us have any more rights than the other one...so relax... Fuck me some people I swear...
Its just a matter of opinion so calm down...
This is a global issue which effects everyone...I personally wouldn't like/prefer to go to war rather than pay some extra dollar per barrel but hey its my oppinion...I'm not necessarily right to think so and maybe the govt are doing whats best for us and not for the arms or car manufacturers and the oil companies.
Maybe its all just a big coincidence that Iran has just bought 25 F-16 (made in the USA) fighter plane's and that haliburton got all the reconstruction of Iraq contracts which it sales (yes sales) to the highest bidder...
[IMG]http://img02.picoodle.com/img/img02/7/2/18/f_F16054m_4aca059.jpg[/IMG]
Good luck trying to find an adequate answer to this little baby...:o:
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Dear subter ,for my daily consumption of gas I pay twice the price that you pay to drive your beautiful polluting SUV in the US , did I say my government needs togo to war to make price cheaper for me ?????
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=Bululu;446472]Dear subter ,for my daily consumption of gas I pay twice the price that you pay to drive your beautiful polluting SUV in the US , did I say my government needs togo to war to make price cheaper for me ?????[/quote]
Gas for cars is only 1 of the many uses industrialized nations have for oil. Nearly every product bought or sold gets tied back to petroleum consumption in some form.
Ever watch the stock market? Have you ever noticed how oil prices have an inverse relationship with many stocks for manufacturing companies? If oil prices drop, the stock prices for many companies go up.... and vice-versa. Why is that? It's because the price of oil affects the costs of production, which affects profitability.
Oil is used for heating. It's used in manufacturing almost everything we use. Without oil, were are all in serious trouble. Not being able to drive our cars is just one problem among many, many worse ones. Oil is probably the single most important resource to life in the modern world. It is scary to think about the consequences of a crash in supply. During the 1970s oil embargo, the price spiked only a few % points.... but the economic effect was the biggest downturn since the Great Depression. Just try to imagine what might happen if prices increased by a huge amount?
Yes.... you pay more for fuel. And you live in a small country, so you probably drive shorter distances. But do you also eat food each day? You live in Switzerland, so I'll bet you have to consume energy to heat your home. I assure you that many of the basic things you use throughout your daily life are dependant upon oil at some stage. That's the point I'm making. Even if you don't own a car, oil still affects you. About the only way oil doesn't affect someone is if they live in some isolated corner of the world with no technology. Maybe some deserted island in the Pacific, which has been untouched by man.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
All dem there plastic bottles too.;)
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=Lorn;446496]All dem there plastic bottles too.;)[/quote]
Yep. Just about any manufacturing process is affected by oil.
Check out this little example: Watch the stock price of XOM (ExxonMobil) vs. MMM (3M) or NWL (NewellRubbermaid).
Almost guaranteed to see an inverse relationship with oil prices. If oil prices go up, then MMM and NWL go down. And the roles reverse if the price of oil drops.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Ok a little listen stock market lesson from mr Subter again :) , before I continue arguing with you , a thing which I did with alot of people before you sir on this board, all your plastic products justify the lives of 100's dieing everyday because you sir want to keep on living and enoying your hamburger inside a plastic container and drinking your coke from a plastic bottel ??? a simple answer of YES or NO would be enough so I can start really debating with you because up until now , your stocks and wanting to keep on living arguments are plain bullshit for me .
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=Bululu;446542]Ok a little listen stock market lesson from mr Subter again :) , before I continue arguing with you , a thing which I did with alot of people before you sir on this board, all your plastic products justify the lives of 100's dieing everyday because you sir want to keep on living and enoying your hamburger inside a plastic container and drinking your coke from a plastic bottel ??? a simple answer of YES or NO would be enough so I can start really debating with you because up until now , your stocks and wanting to keep on living arguments are plain bullshit for me .[/quote]
You are trivializing the issue. You seem to think that I'm talking only about having luxury items, when this isn't the case at all.
We all need oil for so many basic necessities in our lives.... you included. It's about heating the homes of millions of people, who otherwise might die from cold. It's about getting food and water to millions of people who might otherwise die without it. It powers the economies on which our very societies are built. The list goes on and on... but you don't seem to get the big picture. :roll:
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Still avoiding my asnwer ( god everytime I decide not to argue again about this subject it happens again) , let's start from the very first begining , if you don't have something you don't go and take it from the others by force right ?? you buy it , am I right about this ?
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[QUOTE=subterFUSE;446551] We all need oil for so many basic necessities in our lives.... [/QUOTE]
OK, this is true, oil is a critical part of our existence. We are, in the words of the president, "addicted" to oil. The real question, though, is do we just feed the symptoms of that addiction by going and getting more of it, or do we attack the problem at its root by trying to figure out ways to make the things we want to make and do the things we want to do through other means?
Personally, I think it's high time we did the latter. Our dependence upon oil puts us in a real bind at times. People other than environmentalists ought to care about our use of oil, because it forces us to engage a part of the world that seems to be populated by people that hate us.
We can continue to shrug our shoulders and go bomb the most feeble country that has oil when we need it, or we can actually do something innovative and tell the MidEast to kiss our collective ass.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
^^^^^ Add to that all the climate change that is happening right now , this is only the begining , Money spent on brining DEMOCRACY to Iraq should have been invested on R&D to find better solutions, but Mr Haliburton will loose Stock value so no for R&D and yes for War , its time to fucking act and find real solutions.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
james, please say something with an opinion in it. stop dancing around it. lets have it. i can find the facts, what do you think the solution is? and "i dont know" or "long term dialogue" isnt a valid answer.
at this time, the economic, social, military, religious, and relationship factors regarding the middle east are so far beyond the point of waiting and talking. some form of action is required. not a full blown war, but two options do indeed exist. at least two.
and people stop ignoring the fact that the whole region is, always will be, and always has been a giant clusterfuck for the last 1700 years. i forget who said that the muslims were working hand in hand with europe and bolstering science, but i think mike moore syndrome popped its head in there. yes, i hate to coin the religion as a whole, but its time to call it like it is. maybe if we opt for choice 2 up there, they will be forced to clean thier own house when EVERYONE turns thier back and money on the region.'
and bululu, you threw out hallibruton. bro, they are a contracted construction firm specializing in oil rig safety. they arent even that big of a company on the world stage. they are a focuses company that, by happenstance, has dick cheney working for them 25 years ago. they were involved in the middle east then, and they will be involved later, they workd everyone on the planet. stop thinking they are working behind the scenes, inserting governments so they can nail down a multi million dollar operating deal. they dont keep the oil, they just operate rigs. most of the time, the profits form the oil they touch, go to the homecountry or landowner of the oil source. i.e. iran, iraq, mexico, canada......
Re: All this talk about Iran...
I already know the solution us or them.. just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't real..
Also I think the USA Canada Great Britain and Mexico should join together and call it the United Union of the West or something. Make it known its us vs. them..
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[QUOTE=thesightless;446651]james, please say something with an opinion in it. stop dancing around it. lets have it. i can find the facts, what do you think the solution is? and "i dont know" or "long term dialogue" isnt a valid answer.[/QUOTE]
Not sure which of my posts this is referring to. I thought my last one pretty clearly set forth an opinion. Oh well... :NotMe:
Re: All this talk about Iran...
the rooting the problem or the kissing our ass part?
if the rooting the problem out, i want your ideas on executing that. i.e. will it be a military intervention done proerly whereas we aid the formation of a government that is willing to play nicely on the global scale? maybe some action against governments like NK, who btw, in case we forgot, set off a nuke last year without notice., or iran, a gov't that claims it has no ill will in its nuclear aims, even though it refuses to show proof? how?
i know you are far too intelligent to not have a defined opinion and ideas on how to act, so give your honest opinion, i dont care if it is a call for another hitler whose target is the muslims this time around. but back it up.
if it is the kiss our solution, then how? are you willing to share my POV on that idea. a true starvation of the society via trade barriers and economic isolation? maybe forcing the value of a shipment of grain to the middle east equate to a whole barrel of oil? the complete abandonment of funding to these places? the prevention of so called western business investment in the middle east? pretending they simply dont exist past oil trade until they agress on a country who is acting properly on the global scale?
there was a lot more to this post the first time around, but my router went as i hit the reply button and lost it all. i just want some more details on your idea for a solution, not just telling us what we already know. the middle east, is, will be and has been for 1700 years, a royally fucked up place that cant keep its own house in order.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
Oh. I thought it was obvious which path I was advocating, but I guess not... :lol:
My point is that we need to put ourselves in a position where our very existence doesn't hang in the balance of the world's oil supply, and I don't mean it in terms of a military solution or an us-vs-them posture. I don't really have time to go into it right now and will try to put something forward later, but chew on this in the interim:
Suppose that we had taken the amount of money that has been spent on this war in the last year alone and had instead invested that into technologies to reduce our need for petroleum. If that had happened, and we had had some success, would we even be in Iraq right now? If subterFUSE is correct and our need for oil has such an impact on our policy abroad -- and for what it is worth, I think he's basically right -- we can change our policy by taking it upon ourselves to change our own needs.
Put another way, think about how much money we've spent over the past 4 years because we are forced to give a shit what happens in the Mid East. Wouldn't you like to not care?
More later.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
even if we begin oil alternatives right this moment, (they already have begun, for years now), it is essentially guaranteed that it will take a few decades to get the planet on board. so how do we address it it int he meantime. the period of time where false hopes and well wishing during talks and UN resolutions that have no effect is long gone IMHO, and right now, the pussies are stepping to the forefront and the dicks and pussies are rapidly being covered in shit.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
I read what you guys were saying while I was away... I have to say that I agree with what clearly must be done and that is to decrease the west's dependence on oil through new technology. Look at Germany for example it had a green govt and as a result produces twice as much renewable energy as the US.
Furthermore the mid east can never be starved into submission for simple reason of mother Russia while Putsky or anyone like him is in power he will not honor the embargo and will be more than glad to sell wheat or anything else for that matter. I give Putin my full support on most things he has done and most things he is doing...
Why would he stand aside and watch as the west starves the mid east...free market economies and all...or does that apply only when it suits the west?!
The reason why this solution has not been applied is quite clear...if you take into account that the US govt did not sign the Kyoto Treaty (went as far as not admit global warming was happening...I mean wake up people) and that most of Bush's campaign money comes from oil companies, weapons manufacturers and other big business that rely on oil heavily the picture becomes very clear...
Its cheaper to finance a sympathetic govt than it is to change your whole business!!!
The President of the United States and most of the US Establishment are money hungry cunts that only care about filling their own pockets in the short run and having as much power over the faith of others with a simple aim of exploiting them!!!
its clear that almost no one with any amount of power in Washington gives a shit about anything mentioned above...these problems could have been solved EASILY!!!
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[QUOTE=thesightless;446741]even if we begin oil alternatives right this moment, (they already have begun, for years now), it is essentially guaranteed that it will take a few decades to get the planet on board. [/QUOTE]
Yes, things have been under way for quite some time, but I'm not convinced that they have really been being pursued in earnest, at least not as they should have been. We've always heard of oil companies buying off competing technology before they can become a threat to their business. If that's the case, there ought to be tons of great ideas that haven't been pursued.
Conspiracy theories aside, though, I've always believed that if push came to shove, we could probably adopt alternative technologies much quicker than you might think. I'm suggesting that we need not wait until we're truly fucked before we really start looking into ways to wean ourselves off of oil. Its already led us into a disastrous war, now is not the time to sit around with our thumb up our ass waiting for the other shoe to drop.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=runningman;446688]I already know the solution us or them.. just because you don't like the answer doesn't mean it isn't real.. [/quote]
You are right. History sure testifies to this way of action.
[quote]Also I think the USA Canada Great Britain and Mexico should join together and call it the United Union of the West or something. Make it known its us vs. them..[/quote]I wouldn't be surprised to see something like this happen in this century.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=thesightless;446651]james, please say something with an opinion in it. stop dancing around it. lets have it. i can find the facts, what do you think the solution is? and "i dont know" or "long term dialogue" isnt a valid answer.
and people stop ignoring the fact that the whole region is, always will be, and always has been a giant clusterfuck for the last 1700 years.[B] i forget who said that the muslims were working hand in hand with europe and bolstering science, but i think mike moore syndrome popped its head in there. [/B]yes, i hate to coin the religion as a whole, but its time to call it like it is. maybe if we opt for choice 2 up there, they will be forced to clean thier own house when EVERYONE turns thier back and money on the region.'
[/quote]
Reading comprehension wasn't your strong point was it?:roll: :lol:
I think it's pretty clear by that statement that you don't necessarily read and comprehend information as well as the majority of the population. I understand your ideas, but your presentation is as good as a pile of Sub's crap.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[URL="http://www.melaniephillips.com/diary-new/"]Melanie Phillips[/URL] has some thoughts on the subject. An interesting read.
Got to love that feisty old British hack :lol: :lol: :lol:
[quote]February 15, 2007
The war against the west
As has often been remarked, the capacity of the intellectual classes to deny the need for action against tyranny never ceases to amaze. If you want to tap into British denial of the need to confront the threat from Iran, listen to last night?s [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/religion/moralmaze.shtml"]Moral Maze[/URL] on BBC Radio Four. Particularly astounding was the suggestion that we should stop ?demonising? Iran ? and of course, there were the inevitable claims that America is fabricating evidence that Iran is involved in Iraq in order to whip up a false case for invading Iran just as it ?fabricated evidence? for invading Iraq. Leave aside the case for war with Iraq for a second ? the idea that America, which is in such difficulties in Iraq, would actually choose to embark on an all-out war with Iran at this juncture, with all the appalling risks involved, not least to the world economy, simply in order to ?cover up? its difficulties in Iraq, is bizarre in the extreme.
It is not helped, of course, by the appallingly ham-fisted way in which the Bush administration has presented its evidence about Iranian roadside bombs blowing up coalition soldiers in Iraq. No sooner than the munitions were unveiled complete with serial numbers when General Pace, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, popped up to say ?that does not translate that the Iranian government, per se, for sure, is directly involved in doing this.? The [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/02/15/world/middleeast/15prexy.html?_r=1&hp&ex=1171602000&en=937f14147ac50c59&ei=5094&partner=homepage&oref=slogin"]New York Times[/URL] today reported a further statement by a clearly irritated President Bush that elements within the Iran government had supplied these bombs, but he did not know whether Iran?s highest officials had directed the attacks:
[quote]Mr. Bush?s remarks amounted to his most specific accusation to date that Iran was undermining security in Iraq. They appeared to be part of a concerted effort by the White House to present a clearer, more direct case that Iran was supplying the potent weapons ? and to push back against criticism that the intelligence used in reaching the conclusions was not credible.
Speaking at a news conference in the East Room of the White House, Mr. Bush dismissed as ?preposterous? the contention by some skeptics that the United States was drawing unwarranted conclusions about Iran?s role. He publicly endorsed assertions that had until now been presented only by anonymous military and intelligence officials, who have said that an elite branch of Iran?s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps known as the Quds Force has provided Shiite militias in Iraq with the sophisticated weapons that have been responsible for killing at least 170 American soldiers and wounding more than 600.
?I can say with certainty that the Quds Force, a part of the Iranian government, has provided these sophisticated I.E.D.?s that have harmed our troops,? Mr. Bush said, using the abbreviation for improvised explosive device. ?And I?d like to repeat, I do not know whether or not the Quds Force was ordered from the top echelons of the government. But my point is, what?s worse, them ordering it and it happening, or them not ordering it and its happening??[/quote]This is hopeless. How can the west be defended when America is not even able to present a coherent case for the involvement of Iran in Iraq? The evidence of this involvement has been known for years. This was finally rammed home when a group on Iranian officers was captured in Iraq, whose documents left the Americans aghast at the vast extent of Iran?s involvement in Iraq ? which these officers apparently said had been sanctioned at the highest level. The Quds Force, indeed, reports straight to the Supreme Leader of Iran himself. The problem, as ever, is the US administration is deeply divided over this evidence and what to do about it, as it has been over Saddam Hussein and the war in Iraq, with the intelligence community trying to cover up its own incompetence and elements within the military deeply unwilling to open up another front against Iran.
Meanwhile, Iran speeds towards genocide, with people still scoffing that it?s ?only rhetoric?. I recommend people to read this [URL="http://www.jcpa.org/text/ahmadinejad-incitement.pdf"]case[/URL] for the indictment of Ahmadinejad on the charge of incitement to genocide ? including the excellent footnotes and their references ? to judge whether it we should regard it as ?only rhetoric? or whether it is imperative that we act now to prevent a second holocaust or the world being held to ransom by a nuclear-armed apocalyptic messianist with genocidal intentions.
We have been under attack by Iran since 1979, when Khomeini came to power and declared war upon the west and his intention to wipe out Israel and Islamise the world. Throughout three subsequent decades of Iranian attacks on western interests, we did virtually nothing. Now, with the clock at five minutes to nuclear midnight, we are still in disarray. Washington is mired in vicious internal in-fighting. Our elites continue to demonise America and Israel, thus paralysing our politicians and paving the way for a second holocaust. Meanwhile, we plunge ever deeper into total irrationality, with demented conspiracy theories about 9/11 being given a respectful hearing ? as[URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/mainframe.shtml?http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio2_aod.shtml?radio2/r2_vine_thu"] here[/URL] on BBC Radio 2?s Jeremy Vine show and [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/vine/yoursay_thu1.shtml"]here.[/URL] [URL="http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/shows/vine/yoursay_thu1.shtml"] [/URL] When are we going to pull ourselves together? [/quote]
Re: All this talk about Iran...
what didnt i read in this [QUOTE]It wasn't muslims that destroyed African nations. It wasn't muslims that brought disease to the new world and collapse of some of the greatest empires in the world. While Europe was sifting through the dark ages, Persian nations were hard at work helping to uncover science hand-in-hand with Europeans. Everything that is occurring now is occurring because either the Americas or Europeans were hardcore imperialists. I think this quote serves it's purpose[/QUOTE]
dude, the middle east and north africa were the site of wars every century since about 600 AD. early on, they were based on the ideas of religous rule expansion. when were they working hand in hadn
Re: All this talk about Iran...
^^^Yeah but you have to appriciate the fact that that early in history they had mastered the art of mass slaughter!!!
No seriously though they WERE more advanced than europe in the begining...
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stop trying to help me in this question please, you are making me sound like i am blaming the islamic church for each of the worlds evils. hardly, all i did was see a half fact, i.e. one that was partially true, but was missing a lot. the persian empire did make gains, but they were not working hand in with the europeans. disease was around for millenia before american and european imperialists, in fact, there was war on the african continent's northern end since about 600. 90% it was a result of an agression of an arab or persian dynasty.
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[quote] The war against the west[/quote]
Interesting.
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[quote=thesightless;446918]since about 600. [/quote]
I believe the year of note is actually 622 C.E.
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I am really loosing the point of this whole argument....wasn't this something to do with the current events...
p.s. those F16's come from the proud country of Venezuela courtesy of our dear friend Hugo Chavez! Who has aquired himself a brand new set of su 37 the worlds no.1 aircraft...He said that he wants to sink at least one US aircraft carrier in case of US invassion.
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1o3rov7cB4[/youtube]
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=davetlv;446925]I believe the year of note is actually 622 C.E.[/quote]
I am a complete athiest.... but I think that using Common Era, and Before Common Era instead of B.C. and A.D. is so freaking gay. :lol:
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^^^ agreed
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[quote=thesightless;446893]what didnt i read in this
dude, the middle east and north africa were the site of wars every century since about 600 AD. early on, they were based on the ideas of religous rule expansion. when were they working hand in hadn[/quote]
And what great power wasn't? The whole European block was at war and was about conquest, whether it was with the Nords, the Mongols, or even the Persians. You give way too much credit to Judeo-Christian nations. The point I'm trying to make is that whether you're Christian or Muslim, the equation is still the same: both were vile and both carry the same weight of guilt.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=thesightless;446918]stop trying to help me in this question please, you are making me sound like i am blaming the islamic church for each of the worlds evils. hardly, all i did was see a half fact, i.e. one that was partially true, but was missing a lot. the persian empire did make gains, but they were not working hand in with the europeans. disease was around for millenia before american and european imperialists, in fact, there was war on the african continent's northern end since about 600. 90% it was a result of an agression of an arab or persian dynasty.[/quote]
Wait hold up...so you're saying that those nations that the Arabs fought against just happened to own that land? They didn't conquer it? Bullshit bro. Stop slinging shit out your ass.
As for the disease, imperialists caused this little thing called a pandemic in new territories. Oh wait, and what did they come to the new land in the name of?
Anyway, back to topic, I have to side with Toasty.
From my own personal opinion, the only reason I agree with us being there, if this is even a correct reason, is to help Israel if shit hits the fan. Other than that, we can easily eliminate oil dependency. It's a matter of putting the iron fist down, which Bush is too pussy to do.
Re: All this talk about Iran...
[quote=subterFUSE;446947]I am a complete athiest.... but I think that using Common Era, and Before Common Era instead of B.C. and A.D. is so freaking gay. :lol:[/quote]
Well then its a good thing that one of the board fags wrote it, its it!:Gay::Gay::Gay: