Re: God

well that's the thing... Im not saying it's a coincidence...hence why its less understandable. So if it's unexplanable.. what is it?

People associate miracles with the belief in God.. but if they dont beleive in such a "higher being" what would you say of such an example of someone being cured of cancer without medicine being a factor?

I mean there have been stories of this right?... I dont have articles or uh "proof", but I think we've all heard of such stories.

Im not sure Im making any sense here..lol

Re: God

I understand you, but what you're trying to get to is that since science can't explain why someone with cancer was suddenly cured that that must be god's hand. That's where you're allowing your faith and belief to "jump to a conclusion". You've begun with a belief in a god and a god that performs miracles and in the absence of any other explanation that becomes your default one.

I can't give a better explanation of why the person was cured of cancer, science is no help here, but in the absence of scientific knowledge is there nothing else other than god?

Re: God

[quote=BureOne;545138]

What do non-beleivers think about Miracles? Call it something else, what do you think of someone having cancer and then the cancer dissapearing?

:what[/quote]

Would you call cancer in itself a miracle? If not, then what ever process caused the cancer another process exits to stop it. For example, many cancers are caused by DNA mutations. Further mutations can occur to silence the genes leading to cancer. I would never consider the remissions of cancer a miracle.

Re: God

[quote=rubyraks;545204]I understand you, but what you're trying to get to is that since science can't explain why someone with cancer was suddenly cured that that must be god's hand. That's where you're allowing your faith and belief to "jump to a conclusion". You've begun with a belief in a god and a god that performs miracles and in the absence of any other explanation that becomes your default one.

I can't give a better explanation of why the person was cured of cancer, science is no help here, but in the absence of scientific knowledge is there nothing else other than god?[/quote]

I would call it a miracle from God or a "higher being" if people dont like the word/name God involved, what would others call it is what Im curious..

Re: God

I've never seen someone use math, physics, and chemistry to explain religion until now. but even after pulling all three into the argument, it still ended with "you can't see it, you just need to believe in it"

:roflmao:[/quote]

don't forget the Dr. Dre quote at the end. I'm with pickles on this one, how can you use math, physics and rap lyrics to explain the difference of believing vs. not?

Re: God

[quote=threehills;545215]Would you call cancer in itself a miracle? If not, then what ever process caused the cancer another process exits to stop it. For example, many cancers are caused by DNA mutations. Further mutations can occur to silence the genes leading to cancer. I would never consider the remissions of cancer a miracle.[/quote]

wha? I dont think cancer is a miracle.

So if there are dna mutations that cause the ill virus/disease cancer.. and science and medicine can see it; detect it.. why can't they see the other mutations that stops it like you say? I would think they can see the dna mutation that stops it as they can see the one that starts it...

imo, people create excuses not to consider or call it a "miracle".. in any case; I think we all would agree whatever stopped the cancer, good for the one who had it :lol:

Re: God

^so am I to understand that since you've convinced yourself to call cancer remission a "miracle", that all other terms of explanation (ie. coincidence, nature, etc.) are unacceptable?

Re: God

i agree w. beach bum, now if I could just find what page in this book his post is on again...

Re: God

^^^ lol <---- my best contribution to this thread to date :D

Re: God

[quote=rainman;545221]don't forget the Dr. Dre quote at the end. I'm with pickles on this one, how can you use math, physics and rap lyrics to explain the difference of believing vs. not?[/quote] Had to add the dre quote in there, was feeling it at the moment...and by the way I will give you one example that you can think about....the spiders...who gave that small insect the ability to create huge amounts of thread to build their houses? not me not you, not itself...someone created it just like your heart pumping blood in perfect rythym beat by beat...delay could cause death,,the clouds being filled up with water and travelling hundredes of miles just to go pour them some where else to keep the balance and bring life to others??still no God??...study the mechanism of clouds and how complex the process is...the ozone layer,,,gravity,,,,how is it glowing light on earth while we live in a dark universe?? all a coincedence...or u can say nature but who is nature??

Re: God

^I'd like to combine these threads for the freshies - lol [URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19322[/URL]

Re: God

[quote=Jibgolly;536121]am i really expected to believe that i was created two-thousand years ago while science proves that humans have been around for far longer? [/quote]

I'm not sure where you got this information from. But 2000 years ago is the supposed time of death of Jesus, not when humans were created.

Myself personally. I do believe in a 'God' that created all things, and still lives within all things 'living'. This comes from personal experiences and my own conclusions, not from a book or a building. Though I don't see God as a person or being, but more of an entity like energy and water in our physical world. And beyond that a spiritual entity. I think God speaks to us through reactions to our actions (kind of like the karma idea). thus we have 'free will' and we learn the right of that will through those actions and reactions. We can see these reactions to ourselves or within ourselves or upon others. I don't believe we need a book to tell us how to live, it's all written inside us, it's just a matter of living, questioning, and learning for yourself the path of least resistance and greatest happiness for yourself and those that surround you. I don't believe Jesus is the only way, but one of many ways. Jesus was a great man that lived a life worth living after, but he's no more than a man like you and me. There are many great examples of 'Godly' people in our history and present.

Re: God

[quote=trick12;545323]Had to add the dre quote in there, was feeling it at the moment...and by the way I will give you one example that you can think about....the spiders...who gave that small insect the ability to create huge amounts of thread to build their houses? not me not you, not itself...someone created it just like your heart pumping blood in perfect rythym beat by beat...delay could cause death,,the clouds being filled up with water and travelling hundredes of miles just to go pour them some where else to keep the balance and bring life to others??still no God??...study the mechanism of clouds and how complex the process is...the ozone layer,,,gravity,,,,how is it glowing light on earth while we live in a dark universe?? all a coincedence...or u can say nature but who is nature??[/quote]

:deadhorse:

where is cowardly?

Re: God

[quote=rubyraks;545244]^so am I to understand that since you've convinced yourself to call cancer remission a "miracle", that all other terms of explanation (ie. coincidence, nature, etc.) are unacceptable?[/quote]

unacceptable as a miracle (the forest fire example)... I dont think it would constitute of one imo; like you said, maybe a mear coincidence of good weather., but maybe to the person who's home was about to be charred... maybe its a miracle to them... this is indeed a tough one.

I think something soo extreme as "unexplainable", like being cured from cancer, or aids (I dont think that's happened) but something so unimaginable that it bends the laws of science, physics what have you; can maybe be constituted as a "miracle",

something someone can explain and give a pretty good assumption why it happened the way it did; maybe some "proof" then that might not be considererd a miracle.. :what

Re: God

[QUOTE=trick12;545323]Had to add the dre quote in there, was feeling it at the moment...and by the way I will give you one example that you can think about....the spiders...who gave that small insect the ability to create huge amounts of thread to build their houses? not me not you, not itself...someone created it just like your heart pumping blood in perfect rythym beat by beat...delay could cause death,,the clouds being filled up with water and travelling hundredes of miles just to go pour them some where else to keep the balance and bring life to others??still no God??...study the mechanism of clouds and how complex the process is...the ozone layer,,,gravity,,,,how is it glowing light on earth while we live in a dark universe?? all a coincedence...or u can say nature but who is nature??[/QUOTE]

clouds are nothing but moisture. rain happens when the clouds become too saturated with moisture. clouds move because of wind. wind happens because air moves from high pressure locations to low pressure locations. gravity is caused from earth spinning on its axis. earth has daylight because it faces the sun. when we don't face the sun, it's dark just like the rest of the universe. none of it is a coincidence but instead is very explainable...

let's assume "God" created spiders and humans. how does that prove that Heaven exists? that there's life after death? that he's constantly causing fires, putting out fires, moving clouds, watering life, destroying lands with tornadoes, growing potatoes, rotting tomatoes, hiding rainbows, making rivers flow, providing light, curing cancers, taking life, creating life, and constantly watching/judging/punishing/curing/diagnosing each of 6 billion people all at the same time, 24 hours per day? I can't even keep track of 6 people at a time when playing The Sims but this guy is the explanation for everything? :lol:

"Hey, how exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sun set? How exactly does the posi-trac rear end on a Plymouth work? It just does."

Re: God

[quote=picklemonkey;545474]clouds are nothing but moisture. rain happens when the clouds become too saturated with moisture. clouds move because of wind. wind happens because air moves from high pressure locations to low pressure locations. gravity is caused from earth spinning on its axis. earth has daylight because it faces the sun. when we don't face the sun, it's dark just like the rest of the universe. none of it is a coincidence but instead is very explainable...

let's assume "God" created spiders and humans. how does that prove that Heaven exists? that there's life after death? that he's constantly causing fires, putting out fires, moving clouds, watering life, destroying lands with tornadoes, growing potatoes, rotting tomatoes, hiding rainbows, making rivers flow, providing light, curing cancers, taking life, creating life, and constantly watching/judging/punishing/curing/diagnosing each of 6 billion people all at the same time, 24 hours per day? I can't even keep track of 6 people at a time when playing The Sims but this guy is the explanation for everything? :lol:

"Hey, how exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sun set? How exactly does the posi-trac rear end on a Plymouth work? It just does."[/quote]

lol, your right pickle.. I mean it all just does. It all just works. For the past 31 years it has all worked out for me too.. sun rises and sets.. we have winter and fall, rivers flow, rivers freez

We each have our own beleifs.. its crazy to think "A God" keeps track and control of everything in this universe.. unimaginable.. It even says in the bible he knows how many strings of hair each of us have on our head.. I mean WTF!..

But weather you beleive or you dont.. we will all find out when we die. Maybe I'll be a hawk after and you a maggot, maybe we go to a heaven or a hell.. and maybe nothing will happen, just seize to exist.

Im sure he even knows how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop! :lol:

Re: God

[QUOTE=BureOne;545444]I think something soo extreme as "unexplainable", like being cured from cancer, or aids (I dont think that's happened) but something so unimaginable that it bends the laws of science, physics what have you; can maybe be constituted as a "miracle", [/QUOTE]

so then every black hole that exists in science must be the hand of god? What's to be said for future scientific knowledge if you've already determined that what science can't explain today must be the hand of god?

[QUOTE=BureOne;545444]something someone can explain and give a pretty good assumption why it happened the way it did; maybe some "proof" then that might not be considererd a miracle.. :what[/QUOTE] so you must prove it's not a miracle, when proof of an actual miracle, in terms of cause and effect, is itself lacking?

Re: God

what's to be said?.. I dont know.. maybe that science can't answer what it can't explain?..

Re: God

^How do you give that thought any historical reference then? Science thought the world was flat for quite a long time, does that make it a miracle when they discover it's actually round?

Re: God

:)

no, I guess if it's answered it's answered and theres logic to it. Science has obviously advanced since then (whatever that means). I by no means am one to proove that something is in fact a miracle, because you can't prove it.

My initial post was that no one (at least from browsing quickly on this thread) has mentioned faith as being a factor in beleiving in a God.

I dont think there is a straight answer to any of these questions, observations, suggestions etc.. If people beleive in "God" its because they most likely have faith. some probably have "experienced" what the call a personal touch of the hand of God" and what not and are probably the most loyal in preaching the word and existence of a "God".

imo, I beleive that there is something more.. call me naive gullible or whatever; I just beleive that there's something out there.. just like those who believe there is life in Mars or aliens out there I guess...hahah and those people are sometimes referred to as wackos!.. haha go figure.

Re: God

[QUOTE=BureOne;545516]My initial post was that no one (at least from browsing quickly on this thread) has mentioned faith as being a factor in beleiving in a God.[/QUOTE] Well I guess if that's your point, then I, for one, am entirely in agreement with you.

I don't believe that there's something out there, but that's because I lack the faith. I used to tell people my beliefs and religion (and actually so much more) would be so much easier if only I had the same faith that many others seem to have. I just can't take that step.

Re: God

[quote=picklemonkey;545474]clouds are nothing but moisture. rain happens when the clouds become too saturated with moisture. clouds move because of wind. wind happens because air moves from high pressure locations to low pressure locations. gravity is caused from earth spinning on its axis. earth has daylight because it faces the sun. when we don't face the sun, it's dark just like the rest of the universe. none of it is a coincidence but instead is very explainable...

let's assume "God" created spiders and humans. how does that prove that Heaven exists? that there's life after death? that he's constantly causing fires, putting out fires, moving clouds, watering life, destroying lands with tornadoes, growing potatoes, rotting tomatoes, hiding rainbows, making rivers flow, providing light, curing cancers, taking life, creating life, and constantly watching/judging/punishing/curing/diagnosing each of 6 billion people all at the same time, 24 hours per day? I can't even keep track of 6 people at a time when playing The Sims but this guy is the explanation for everything? :lol:

"Hey, how exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sun set? How exactly does the posi-trac rear end on a Plymouth work? It just does."[/quote]

nice

Re: God

[quote=picklemonkey;545474] "Hey, how exactly is a rainbow made? How exactly does the sun set? How exactly does the posi-trac rear end on a Plymouth work? It just does."[/quote]

Thats why He's God and your not, coz he could track all 6 billion people that we know of and maybe others that we dont know of,,U gotta agree with me that everything hap[pens for a reason, that belief in God is what makes Him this reason....he created us, so why cant he Judge us?? I mean think positive, he gave you things that keeps you alive, air you breath, u think its natural that u come to earth and find evrything u need to live,,,,ok well why is it earth that humans exists on and we cant live in any other plant...He knows what we need and provided it for us in one huge planet(to us,,to the universe=minute), Plants to take our Co2 and covert it to our source of living O2,,,this is nature and since God=nature, therfore this is God who provided this...evrything related and in perfect harmony...tornados and such stuff are also signs of his power..the same that He provided evrything with His power, He can take it all away with His power...Peace.

Re: God

[quote=AndyH;536198]I dont believe in god or any religion and resent the fact that virtually all wars have been related to religion is some way. I do think that Buddhism has alot going for it and particuarly like that there is no 'god' to pray to or be scared of. It is more of a philosophy then a religion.[/quote]

Buddhists hold Buddha in as high regard as any other religion holds their god. They take his teachings as if it were the gospel, the build shrines, temples and statues to praise Buddha. A large amount of Buddhists even wear amulets around their neck with tiny figures on Buddha in them. They definately pray to Buddha, they spend a lot of time doing this.

Walk past a Buddhist shrine and you will see they offer food and drink (fruit and red fanta especially!) by placing it in front of the shrine as an offering.

The only difference is they don't believe he's a creator, but that's not really the definition of a god anyway.

Re: God

[QUOTE=trick12;545643]U gotta agree with me that everything hap[pens for a reason[/quote] sorry to be so blunt but I think that's retarded

[QUOTE=trick12;545643]that belief in God is what makes Him this reason....he created us, so why cant he Judge us?? I mean think positive, he gave you things that keeps you alive, air you breath, u think its natural that u come to earth and find evrything u need to live,,,,ok well why is it earth that humans exists on and we cant live in any other plant[/quote] how many other planets have we tried living on? :lol: you're basing your entire faith on the fact that we haven't been able to visit another planet? :CrackUp:

do you believe that we can't live on another planet because of science? or because God told you?

Re: God

what if Your afterlife is what You imagine it to be, or believe it to be? that simple...or complex.

The power of the imagination is under-estimated.

Re: God

[IMG]http://podcasts.thestranger.com/files/2007/04/jones-tom-photo-tom-jones-6227825.jpg[/IMG]

Re: God

^^^:CrackUp:

Awesome!!!

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[IMG]http://bestpicever.com/pics/pic_192224001184712984.jpg[/IMG]

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dude, that poster....hilarious.

...AND MORMONS..... haha!

Re: God

i would like to see everyone that just said "i dont believe in God" say it, and what i mean with say it, is denying it inside a church, synagogue or any other sacred place, i can almost bet you wouldnt do it because of that small question that pops into your head every time you say/think about it. "what if he really exists?", like someone said before, it must be lack of faith or i guess it could be that you deny it because you ask for some miracle and "He" didnt do it, so in response you chose not to believe. I consider myself a rational person and i rarely beleive in not science based facts but because of that i see really egoistic the theory that we are the highest beings around here. IMO

Re: God

I love God and He loves me.

Re: God

[QUOTE=djsethnichols;545807]what if Your afterlife is what You imagine it to be, or believe it to be? that simple...or complex.

The power of the imagination is under-estimated.[/QUOTE]

:lol: why do religious people need to use their imagination to believe in their religion?

Re: God

[QUOTE=hansh20;545955]i would like to see everyone that just said "i dont believe in God" say it, and what i mean with say it, is denying it inside a church, synagogue or any other sacred place, i can almost bet you wouldnt do it because of that small question that pops into your head every time you say/think about it. "what if he really exists?", like someone said before, it must be lack of faith or i guess it could be that you deny it because you ask for some miracle and "He" didnt do it, so in response you chose not to believe. I consider myself a rational person and i rarely beleive in not science based facts but because of that i see really egoistic the theory that we are the highest beings around here. IMO[/QUOTE] you wouldn't find me walking into a church and denying it to a pastor. I have no reason to 'prove' to my disbelief to him, and if I did try I'm sure he'd do nothing but try to convert me to his religion

Re: God

the term atheism is interesting in itself, as all it indicates is the lack of belief in supernatural dieties. i think its intersting that atheists walk around literally describing themselves in the negative.

nobody walks around and says "i'm a non-racist" or a "non-republican" or a "non-cubs fan". i think the term should not be used anymore, tbqh. it's not something to be expressed, but rather lived. it would be better of if we non-believers stopped using the term altogher as it prevents the religious to intellectually spar on ideas and theories, as opposed to say, "oh you're an atheist? well anything you utter cannot, by fact, be true."

Re: God

^^ i agree totally. i have never used the term atheist to describe my beliefs. i simply choose not to believe and feel that anyone labelled as an atheist is looked down upon and viewed in a negative light. not believing in any form of religion doesn't mean anything other than i choose to find my own source of information and use this regarding pretty much every aspect of my life.

quite simply, i find it hard to listen to someone who tells me i am going to hell for not believing the same idealogical beliefs that __________ (insert religion here) follows, and at the same time ask me to give money to the church as well as ask me to change my beliefs so that i can then force them down everyone else's throats. nah, not into it.

Re: God

[quote=picklemonkey;545968]you wouldn't find me walking into a church and denying it to a pastor. I have no reason to 'prove' to my disbelief to him, and if I did try I'm sure he'd do nothing but try to convert me to his religion[/quote]

i think i never said the word pastor, i only said "walk into a sacred place", IMO the people whos sure about their beliefs dont need to talk or make a discussion out of it, they just know there is nothing else out there and have nothing to prove.

Re: God

[quote=picklemonkey;545968]you wouldn't find me walking into a church and denying it to a pastor. I have no reason to 'prove' to my disbelief to him, and if I did try I'm sure he'd do nothing but try to convert me to his religion[/quote]

i think i never even mention the word pastor, i said "walk into a sacred place", IMO the people whos sure about their beliefs dont need to talk or make a discussion out of it, they just know there is nothing else out there and has nothing to prove.

Re: God

^ Disagreed: to say that is probably a disservice to society in general. In essence, if you know what you believe, shut up about it. This, of course, does not produce the change in the world. Martin Luther King was not quiet, despite his beliefs. I get the feeling you expect some people to just sit idly by and watch as a majority tyranizes the rights of the minority. If so, I'll have to disrespectfully disagree with you on that.

Re: God

[quote=88Mariner;546002]^ Disagreed: to say that is probably a disservice to society in general. In essence, if you know what you believe, shut up about it. This, of course, does not produce the change in the world. Martin Luther King was not quiet, despite his beliefs. I get the feeling you expect some people to just sit idly by and watch as a majority tyranizes the rights of the minority. If so, I'll have to disrespectfully disagree with you on that.[/quote]

Martin Luther King talked about human rights, here we're talking about "the not existence of a higher being", i do not see what this think has to do with the "majority tyranizes the rights of the minority-thing", one thing is believing in God and another way much diferent is to practice a religion, besides we are not changing the world with a topic that has been discussed since the begining of human kind.