Re: The Devil

the bible contradicts itself on its own.

Re: The Devil

No, it's not just about the people being imperfect man...there is no such thing as perfection, only in the perception of a man or woman, and even then nobody will be able to give you a description because it is subjective.

Anyway...Jenks was right with his short short answer.

What consolation is it that for example Western countries are still leeching on LDC's, extracing their natural resources to keep their economies growing, thus causing millions of people to die from diseases (expensive medication), hunger, war, poverty etc etc?? Fucking nice idea for a devout Christian African kid to lose it's parents, get recruited into a child soldier army, lose a limb and get traumatized beyond belief, get caught by the opposition and get tortured to death?

Great fucking God you have, but you can have him dude. I will not have anything to do with a 'supreme being' that is supposed to give the world rules to live by and then is too damn weak to do something about this mess. If he's that weak, then screw him. He deserves a big ass punch in the nose, should he exist anyway.

(Yep...that question brought up my real anger with religion and Gods in general again...sorry mate, but that one came from my guts)

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE]the bible contradicts itself on its own.[/QUOTE]

no it doesn't. it's actually you Jenks that contradicts the text. For all the bible is truly words. You are the subject that adds or subtracts value to those words. That is the beauty of reading.

Re: The Devil

Actually asdf, the bible says plainly contradicting things. I don't have to read anything into this stuff.

[url]http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra[/url]

Re: The Devil

[quote=toasty]... and contradictory with other versions of the Bible. The Bible itself actually wasn't [B]written[/B] 2000 years ago -- it was passed down orally for the first 400 years or so. And we're supposed to believe that they got it -- with "it" being the absolute literal Word of God -- down verbatim? Try keeping a story consistent through two retellings. Sorry, no sale.[/quote]

Actually that is not quite the correct descripton of the Bible.

There was no oral passing down of the Bible for a few reasons.

1. If you understand the Bible explanation on how it was written then you understand that men could not have messed it up.

2. The Law of Moses was given to Moses on the mountain by God........ The Ten Commandments were not the only thing given to Moses.

3.God spoke through prophets that recorded the words God gave them. They wrote on scrolls.

4. The Bible was penned over a period of 1400 - 1800 years by 40 men.

5. The actual Bible was authored by God and not man. God gave the men the words to say. The men only penned what the Holy Spirit guided them to write.

That is the Biblical explanation on its origin.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]Isnt it posssible that people being imperfect can misunderstand and misuse something if we just take other peoples word on what it says?[/quote]

Its not just possible - it actual and it happens every time you read the Bible.

Unless you are fluent in ancient Hebrew and have an original edition of the good book in its entirety, then you are subject to those same imperfect people you mentioned above.

I'd venture to guess the only Bible you have read is one written in English (not knocking you here, just making a point), it is a translated copy and one that is as flawed and as "misunderstood" as anything by Darwin or whoever wrote the first paper on carbon dating.

Re: The Devil

Based on cdj's 5 points, lol, this is where i bow out of this discussion for good, as it is a waste of time because you'll just get the same thing over and over.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]What consolation is it that for example Western countries are still leeching on LDC's, extracing their natural resources to keep their economies growing, thus causing millions of people to die from diseases (expensive medication), hunger, war, poverty etc etc?? Fucking nice idea for a devout Christian African kid to lose it's parents, get recruited into a child soldier army, lose a limb and get traumatized beyond belief, get caught by the opposition and get tortured to death?

(Yep...that question brought up my real anger with religion and Gods in general again...sorry mate, but that one came from my guts)[/quote]

However you are blaming God for things man has done. God does not meddle with the acts of men. If man wants to do evil things to his fellow man then it is the mans choice.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]Actually asdf, the bible says plainly contradicting things. I don't have to read anything into this stuff.

[URL="http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra"]http://ffrf.org/books/lfif/?t=contra[/URL][/quote]

Jenks, I assure you I can give you an explanation for anything you think the Bible contradicts itself on. And I will go to that site to take a peek around.

But first I want to ask you if you agree with the only way to see if the Bible contradicts itself is to go to the Bible to see.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]Actually that is not quite the correct descripton of the Bible.

There was no oral passing down of the Bible for a few reasons.

1. If you understand the Bible explanation on how it was written then you understand that men could not have messed it up. [/quote]

But in order to do that you have to believe that the Bible is the word of the "one true God". For those who believe, it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy: "I believe what the Bible says because the Bible says what I believe".

[quote=cowardly dj]2. The Law of Moses was given to Moses on the mountain by God........ The Ten Commandments were not the only thing given to Moses.[/quote]

And the myth of the life/flight/destiny of Moses is one that was in use in various forms loooong before the Bible.

[quote=cowardly dj]3.God spoke through prophets that recorded the words God gave them. They wrote on scrolls.[/quote]

Then why are there such varying accounts depending on which sect you follow? The Essenes and the Gnostics for example both claimed to hear the word of God yet their writings are like night and day.

[quote=cowardly dj]4. The Bible was penned over a period of 1400 - 1800 years by 40 men.[/quote]

The Bible (in its various forms) was written, rewritten, edited, deleted, reformed and rehashed countless times by countless people for hundreds of years.

[quote=cowardly dj]5. The actual Bible was authored by God and not man. God gave the men the words to say. The men only penned what the Holy Spirit guided them to write.[/quote]

But, like I said before, it all depends on which "stenographer" you believe. If you take the Bible in its current incarnation, you are reading the work as approved by the Council of Nicea centuries ago. What about the Book of Thomas? Book of Mary? Book of Enoch? Legitimate chapters of the Bible in their day that were snuffed out of existance because they didn't fit into the designs of those in power.

[quote=cowardly dj]That is the Biblical explanation on its origin.[/quote]

And as such, no real explanation at all.

Re: The Devil

Look how many different conversations I am having in this thread.........

Re: The Devil

Jenks. I gave that site a whirl. And I can see it's valid points, but I also know how man can manipulate text, facts, data, and statistics to his own doing. This text is from a non-believer perspective, so in due course the whole book of God is fiction. I am sure that if you were to use the context that these verses came from perhaps there would be an explanation and justification. I am not here to preach, nor defend my own faith. For I myself have issues with certain parts of the Bible.

It is hard to explain something that has really no physical element. To believe in God and his book is not an easy thing. Things in my life have lead me to the path of faith. I feel I am blessed for what I see and feel. It does not make me better nor worse. It is my strength. I hope what I fight for and what I believe to be true, and it it really comes to that ... truth. In my heart I feel it is right and true. As much as I wish I could share that with other people, I know I can not. Nor do I think it is my duty. Upon my death, the truth of my faith and believe will be either granted or it will not. Until that time, I will continue my God loving ways until my own last breath of this planet air. No text, no words, not anything will ever take that away from me. Strange it is, and strange it will be.

Re: The Devil

OK again it is misunderstood that I am trying to convert you guys to Christianity by using the Bible which none of you believe is credible. That is not the case.

So when someone says something about the Bible.....(for instance saying the Bible was written by men).... you must know what the Bible says about the subject and not a man. I dare to venture that very few of you if any who are in these conversations have a Bible near you and have referenced it against what I type. Being aware of that I answer Bible questions with Bible answers.

It is all about the explanation, not the belief.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]Jenks, I assure you I can give you an explanation for anything you think the Bible contradicts itself on. And I will go to that site to take a peek around. [/quote]

Thanks but no thanks CDJ. I have no interest in having you rehash what the bible already says. If i want your views, i'll just go open the king james, and it's all right there. I do not mean any of these words to be offending, but i feel you are capable of thought beyond bibilical text as has been evident in the many religious discussions on this board. [B]I respect your wish to live your life by the bible[/B]. I am spiritual, not religious. We have nothing in common. I stated my views on "god" back on page one (which i'm sure you passed right over.)

I will tell you tho, i have read the bible. I grew up southern baptist (lol, yes the worst kind) and my degree is in literature. I spent a semester reading the bible as a literary piece of work. Taken in that context, the language is indeed amazing, very poetic, and a fantastic story. That's where it stops for me tho. Christianity just doesn't do it for me. I have a better grasp on Buddhism than anything else, and that's a philosophy i can wrap my head around, which i would hope you would respect.

So, all of that said...should you pick up some musical discussion or discussion about Chuck Norris, or cooking dumplings in another thread, i'll surely engage you, until then tho (which is likely never because you stated the only reason you're here is to provide biblical information) we just don't have anything further to discuss, and is a grand waste of energy.

Re: The Devil

[quote=asdf_admin] I am sure that if you were to use the context that these verses came from perhaps there would be an explanation and justification. [/quote]

asdf.... that is exactly right. In context it all makes perfect sense.

Of course you can not say that to a person who is talking about a book that they do not think is credible.

Most athiest look at the Bible and do not see anything but a book. That is what hinders them from examining it and actually checking into it. It would be like me reading Shakespear. I would not make it past the first page.

So a Christian on the other hand sees the Bible and believes it was written by God and is infallable.

Those are based on belief. I assure you that if any athiest were to sit down with a Christian and study both sides of the story based on the fact that it was not to convert the athiest then the Bible would be proven to be flawless by its own rights. That is where the athiest looses sight. They can not understand how a person can believe a book. An athiest can not sit down with a Christian and be given an explanation on the Bible based on the Bible because they do not know how to look at the study in the reference if you were studying something like The Lord of the Rings.

They can not differentiate in a study of a book for flaws and a lesson on faith.

In understanding the Bible in depth one can easily see its is flawless in its words...... but you just have to chose to believe if God exists. That is where faith is separated in mankind.

The athist's war is not over the Bible, it is over the existence of God. There is nothing another person can say to an athiest that can change their mind on God's existence. To argue points of the Bible is an argument of faith. the text is only black and white and paper. The context of the document is what is argued over.

An athiest will need something more than the Bible to believe God exists. They look for proof in the way only their human mind can understand. If you can not see it, hear it, touch it, taste it, or smell it then it does not exist.

So my only response to an athiest on believeing in something the senses can not experience and can only be something in your mind then I say......

Have you ever seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard time? Do you believe that time exists? and if so then please explain why?

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]So, all of that said...should you pick up some musical discussion or discussion about Chuck Norris, or cooking dumplings in another thread, i'll surely engage you, until then tho (which is likely never because you stated the only reason you're here is to provide biblical information) we just don't have anything further to discuss, and is a grand waste of energy.

8)[/quote]

I disagree Jenks. It is always good to have you in the discussions. I am not trying to get you to see the Bible as the truth. When talking to you I always take into mind that you do not believe in God. I am not trying to use the Bible to convince you of anything.

I enjoy your conversation as a man to man conversation. It has always been that way for me since I first heard you were an athiest years ago in another discussion

Re: The Devil

I'm not an atheist. I'm agnostic in a sense. I believe in a higher power, i just don't believe in your god.

"God" is the spirit of all things. Energy, Bob. ;)

Re: The Devil

hmmmm my mistake I thought you were. I apologize for my misconception

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]

Have you ever seen, touched, smelled, tasted or heard time? Do you believe that time exists? and if so then please explain why?[/quote]

Time is just a rate at which you are traveling .The faster you move in any direction the slower you move in time . Everyone moves at the speed of light at all times ( nice one to put to the boss if he says ure going too slow). If you walk 5 miles to work , once at work can you taste or touch those five miles no. But you know damn well you have traveled them .

Don't confuse tangable and provable with myth and hearsay.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]Actually that is not quite the correct descripton of the Bible.

There was no oral passing down of the Bible for a few reasons.

1. If you understand the Bible explanation on how it was written then you understand that men could not have messed it up.

2. The Law of Moses was given to Moses on the mountain by God........ The Ten Commandments were not the only thing given to Moses.

3.God spoke through prophets that recorded the words God gave them. They wrote on scrolls.

4. The Bible was penned over a period of 1400 - 1800 years by 40 men.

5. The actual Bible was authored by God and not man. God gave the men the words to say. The men only penned what the Holy Spirit guided them to write.

That is the Biblical explanation on its origin.[/QUOTE]

Oh, that explains it. My bad. Nevermind.

:roll:

Seriously, which version is the correct version? Because even a cursory reading of any two versions of the Bible, you pick 'em, will reveal that that are not word for word identical, or even close...

And if one is correct, what then of the others? Blasphemy? Heretical? Close but no banana?

Re: The Devil

[quote=toasty]Close but no banana?[/quote]

[IMG]http://img40.echo.cx/img40/8527/poopbananavi1dx.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://jackandbooperschateau.ibforums.com/html/emoticons/banana-rock.gif[/IMG]

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]How do you know that Napoloen existed?[/quote]

How do you know that Jesus existed...other than "The Bible tells me so." It goes both ways.

Has any shred of evidence been found that Jesus the man actually walked this Earth?? No

There are books about Paul Bunyon...did he exist?? There are books about Pecos Bill...did he exist?? But noooooo...because it's "THE BIBLE" and millions of people over thousands of years have said it's real...well then it must be, right?? I believe in the Bible about as much as I believe in any other tall tale.

[quote=cowardly dj]and a man you have never met before who had the first thought about carbon dating is good enough for you?[/quote]

And a man [B]no one [/B]has ever seen before and no one can produce any physical evidence of and who talks to people thousands of years ago, but not today, and who walks on water and raises the dead and parts an entire ocean and makes the blind see and all that crap, is good enough for you?? At least I can see what science tells me.

The Bible could be entirely made up for all you know. Have you ever honestly concidered that the bible could be the most famous, most popular and most followed work of fiction ever?? Honestly, how do you know that the Bible is true, and that the events that it depicts really happened?? And don't answer with another question. Other than your faith and belief in what is in says, there is not one shred of evidence that the events or people in the Bible ever happened. Sorry, but blind faith in fairy tales is not enough for me to base my life on.

Re: The Devil

^^evangelion, I agree with the sentiment 100%. I would note, however, that as a purely historical figure, Jesus' presence on this planet is pretty well documented. I gather that he's referenced in a number of other texts, Roman, I think, that don't necessarily have any religious significance or have him doing anything miraculous. His divinity is of course a more debatable issue, but whether or not he was actually on this planet is not, as far as I'm aware.

Re: The Devil

Just a thought, Is god like the greeks ? They invented sanitation ,philosophy ,astronomy ( though egyptions may argue) , medicine ,democracy and pro competitive sport . They thought they'd done their bit and put their feet up for 2,400 years .

God did it all at once then piss all for 13 billion years .

Mustn't be many jobs in the celestrial diety section of the paper for him to apply for . Just a thought

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]asdf.... that is exactly right. In context it all makes perfect sense.[/QUOTE]

Busted CDJ: here you are doing it yourself, extracting just that little piece of a bigger whole that will help you prove your point ;)

As for the eveil men doing evil things and God not meddling with that: pretty lame excuse IMO. In fact, almost all excuses I've heard on every 'why' question about Christianity or God is countered with and equally nothing-saying answer so far. But what can you expect when taking a fantasy-book literally...Hardline Christians have has all the arguments we are throwing at you for centuries, and therefore are pretty well trained in dodging them with rhetorics. 'Guided by the spirit'...sure...or maybe it was a tumor causing delusions for all I care.

I'm getting a bit cynical here yes, almost unavoidable in discussions like there I'm afraid.

As for Jesus's presence: he has indeed walked the earth and his whereabouts and presence have been recorded my multiple written sources at the time. Looks like the Romans were good for something after all huh...introducing literacy and at least keeping scores of records.

Something else here: Jesus was a Palestinian. Then why the fuck is he always depicted as being a caucasian huh?

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=Yao] Something else here: Jesus was a Palestinian. Then why the fuck is he always depicted as being a caucasian huh?[/QUOTE]

I love this, because this always gets some folks whipped into a serious froth. The idea that Jesus wasn't lily-white or that he may have even been -- gasp -- black is too much for some to handle (not referring to anyone on here, mind you, just religious folks in general). I've always thought it was absurd, though, given where Jesus lived geographically, to think that he wasn't olive-skinned or darker. Was Jesus black? I've got no problem believing that, but I think dark-skinned is more likely. The idea that he was a garden-variety white guy, though, as he's often depicted, just strains credibility, IMO.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao] Something else here: Jesus was a Palestinian. Then why the fuck is he always depicted as being a caucasian huh?[/quote]

And why is God always depicted as an old guy with a long white beard draped in a while robe. Looks a lot like a certain thunder-throwing big man from Greek mythology, doesn't he?

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]Something else here: Jesus was a Palestinian. Then why the fuck is he always depicted as being a caucasian huh?[/quote] Ever since I was a little kid I've wondered the same thing. I would always think "Wasn't Jesus from the Middle East??" And wonder why he had a light brown beard and hair. :lol:

Re: The Devil

there are no descriptions of physical appearance of God of Jesus to extract an image. What you see in print is peoples rendition of Jesus and is not at all scripturally sound doctrine.

Blameed God for mans duties again.

Re: The Devil

I'm not blaming anyone for anything. The Jesus I've alway seen hanging in churches and in books looks like the dude in the movie. Not like your average middle-easterner.

Re: The Devil

Yeah, I wasn't blaming God here either man, chill out. This distorted image of Jesus is totally man's doing.

You should've seen the faces of my African (and VERY religious) friends when I told them Jesus could never have been a white man. I asked them why they thought he was white, and they said because he always appears white in images and drawings. So I said: he lived in Palestine, where people are dark skinned. He can't have been white, logically thinking.

It confused the hell out of them, but maybe I helped them raise some questions that need to be asked, too...

Re: The Devil

my friends from the middle east, Iowa to be exact and he's not black

[IMG]http://img484.imageshack.us/img484/9504/8662p0078xh.jpg[/IMG]

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]Busted CDJ: here you are doing it yourself, extracting just that little piece of a bigger whole that will help you prove your point ;)[/quote]

OK lets say you have read a book more than once. You are talking to someone about it who has only read part of it or may not have even read it. Lets say one of them comes up to you and the book comes up in the conversation. They say something that you know from reading it that is not in context and flow of the book. Where are you going to go to show them what that paragraph means? Are you going to use the book as a means to define the context of the book you are talking about? If yes then are you taking that paragraph and using it to your needs just to prove a point? No! It means what it means.

Unless you have direct access to the author, all you have to describe the contents of a book is that book.

People who say that the Bible contridicts itself because they read verses like "judge not lest ye be judged" and in another verse they read "judge with righteous judgement"

Do not judge....judge...... what is the message here?

So if a person is told not to judge lest they be judged themselves and then are told to judge righteous judgement the it is obvious that it is 2 different types of judgement being talked about here.

I will explain this and won't charge you for my time

judge not lest ye be judged = that which you judge other people is the standard you will be judged by. The measure you use to judge others is the measure you will be judged by Example: if you are walking through a store and see someone who is overweight and you make fun of them then you have no right to get upset when people say your teeth are yellow and crooked.

judge not lest ye be judged

Re: The Devil

CDJ could you please list all offences for me in the bible where it is acceptable for the person to be stonned to death or killed in another such manner .. Just so i could judge all the contradictions on judging

Re: The Devil

Some serious dialogue use to happen in the old days hey! I wonder what has happened to change that! And I saw some names that i havnt seen for ages giving excellent arguments.

My five cents - There is a trinity, God the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit and there are angels and demons and a Devil.

I have seen the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and i have seen people under the power of demonic activity.

i may not be living to my full potential as a christian but I still believe.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=nick007;1004041] I have seen the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and i have seen people under the power of demonic activity.

[/QUOTE]

do tell

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=nick007;1004041] I have seen the manifestation of the Holy Spirit and i have seen people under the power of demonic activity.[/QUOTE]

its called psychiatric ward m8, this is 2011 :lol:

Re: The Devil

When i was a policeman in the early 90's i was in the occult related crimes unit for about 18 months where we dealt with a lot of children who were dabbling in satanism, killing cats in blood sacrifices, taking blood oath with the devil etc and we would take them to churches if they wanted help to try and come out from it.

A couple of examples

I knew a particular pastor of a local church who was quite well known for his deliverance ministry (exorcism but not the catholic way) where he would just pray over people and these demons would manifest themselves with different voices (once witnessed a girl speak and act about 50 diffent ways (personalities or demons) within 3 hours. And all he would say was "in the name of jesus get out " and they would leave and the next one would manifest and he would start again.

Wewere helping a young girl when she excused herself and went to the toilet. When she came back she said in a mans voice that she was going to die because she had drunk toilet cleaner. As I rushed to go and check that it was true my bible fell off a chair and open on Mark chapter 16 which says 'they will drive out demons in Jesus name and drink deadly poison and will not be harmed, they will lay hands on the sick and they will be well" and watched as she vomited all the cleaner up and as we prayed for her she was fine.

All i am saying is that I have seen these kind of things with my own eyes and it is pretty difficult not to believe that there is a spiritual realm around us fighting for and against us.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=thebanned1;1004080]its called psychiatric ward m8, this is 2011 :lol:[/QUOTE]

Wouldn't it be interesting if you were wrong.

Re: The Devil

nick007 that is an amazing story!