Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]I was not avoiding the question. In fact it is not a question at all. It is a weapon. You have taken something from my past and are using it in an attempt to discredit me, the things I am saying and my future posts.[/quote]

I'm not doing anything but trying to figure how somweone who is going to say the things that you have said, that you will "pray" for those of us that don't believe in what you believe in and all of that nonsense, can have the balls to do so after telling some long winded story about fucking some chick. Did you think no one would remember?? The first thing anyone said when you came back was "Got anymore stories for us " or "Your shit story was funny as hell." Yet you still have the audacity to come in here and tell us we are all going to hell because we don't follow your brainwashed religion or believe in your make believe "god." I ask you again...how does that work??

[quote=cowardly dj]But the question itself is a good question. It has merit and depth despite the manner in which it was put across.[/quote]

It was put across in the manner of someone being sick and tired of religious people pushing their beliefs on others when they are no different than the people they are trying to "help."

[quote=cowardly dj]First you say it is hypocrisy. This is a word that is used over and over again in the wrong context. Here is the best description for hypocrisy: insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have. Saying something is wrong as you do it with no intent to stop. Example, a parent who smokes and tells their children not to smoke as they light up in front of them. That is hypocrisy.[/quote]

Hypocrisy is saying one thing and doing another. Spin it however you want.

[quote=cowardly dj]1. I was not a faithul Christian until about 2-3 years ago. Anything in my past that was contrary to what I speak of now are two seperate scenarios and can not be combined. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure they are both fruit but not of the same tree.[/quote]

Right...so "god" washed away all of your sins. The sins that you felt well and comfortable sharing with thousands of strangers on the internet. Then we're supposed to take your "holier-than-thou...I'll pray for you" bullshit seriously?? And I'm trying trying to discredit you?? You already did that yourself.

[quote=cowardly dj]2. I am not pretending to follow God, I do follow God and what he says.[/quote]

And "god" led you right into that girl's pants, huh?? :roll: So because you've "found god" that gives you some right to come her and talk us down like we are some kind of barbarians and you are the missionary trying to show us the way to "salvation??" Here's a quick tip...SAVE IT!!!

[quote=cowardly dj]Does that clear anything up for you?[/quote]

Uhhh....no

Re: The Devil

every thread cdj posts in turns into a heated debate :ROFLMAO:

we should just banish god from this forum. like i've done with my life.

can we discuss this stuff without getting hostile? All I want is scientific proof that the Christianity is nothign but a cult, and all the true Christians want is more cult members. neither one of us will be happy, because both believe in different things. can't we just go for two weeks without a cdj vs ms debate?

Re: The Devil

When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story.

Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up. Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the résumé of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this.

So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

[I]-George Carlin[/I]

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you.[/quote]

Only Carlin could put it in such perfect words:RockOn:

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]When it comes to bullshit, big-time, major league bullshit, you have to stand in awe of the all-time champion of false promises and exaggerated claims, religion. No contest. Religion easily has the greatest bullshit story ever told. Think about it. Religion has actually convinced people that there's an invisible man living in the sky who watches everything you do, every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a special list of ten things he does not want you to do. And if you do any of these ten things, he has a special place, full of fire and smoke and burning and torture and anguish, where he will send you to live and suffer and burn and choke and scream and cry forever and ever 'til the end of time! But He loves you.

He loves you, and He needs money! He always needs money! He's all-powerful, all-perfect, all-knowing, and all-wise, somehow just can't handle money! Religion takes in billions of dollars, they pay no taxes, and they always need a little more. Now, you talk about a good bullshit story.

Holy Shit!

But I want you to know something, this is sincere, I want you to know, when it comes to believing in God, I really tried. I really, really tried. I tried to believe that there is a God, who created each of us in His own image and likeness, loves us very much, and keeps a close eye on things. I really tried to believe that, but I gotta tell you, the longer you live, the more you look around, the more you realize, something is fucked up. Something is wrong here. War, disease, death, destruction, hunger, filth, poverty, torture, crime, corruption, and the Ice Capades. Something is definitely wrong. This is not good work. If this is the best God can do, I am not impressed. Results like these do not belong on the r?sum? of a Supreme Being. This is the kind of shit you'd expect from an office temp with a bad attitude. And just between you and me, in any decently-run universe, this guy would've been out on his all-powerful ass a long time ago. And by the way, I say "this guy", because I firmly believe, looking at these results, that if there is a God, it has to be a man. No woman could or would ever fuck things up like this.

So, if there is a God, I think most reasonable people might agree that he's at least incompetent, and maybe, just maybe, doesn't give a shit. Doesn't give a shit, which I admire in a person, and which would explain a lot of these bad results.

[I]-George Carlin[/I][/quote]

:CrackUp: THANK GOD (I mean Geoge Carlin) He did this skit when I saw him @ MGM in Vegas. Fuckin [SIZE=2]hilarious [/SIZE]

Re: The Devil

[quote=picklemonkey] can't we just go for two weeks without a cdj vs ms debate?[/quote]

If we went for two weeks without a cdj vs ms debate, i hate electro debate, and sasha sucks debate...

honestly there wouldn't be much to talk about, we'd just all be posting silly pics in the nonsense thread.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=Jenks]If we went for two weeks without a cdj vs ms debate, i hate electro debate, and sasha sucks debate...

honestly there wouldn't be much to talk about, we'd just all be posting silly pics in the nonsense thread.[/QUOTE]

Pickles ! :lol:

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]we'd just all be posting silly pics in the nonsense thread.[/quote]

And what's wrong with that?? ;)

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj] People have been trying to disprove the Bible for as long as it has been around. There has never been a single flaw found in the Bible.

I am working on a paper I will put up here soon I hope. It will be called the Bible vs. the Koran.

When you put the Bible next to any other religious text you will soon see the infallability of the Bible and how mans invented religions are just that........invented.[/QUOTE]

Oh come on. The Bible isn't right because other religions are wrong. That's just absurd. That presupposes that one of these religions is "right." Why does one have to be right? Why can't they all be wrong? It's a false dichotomy...

Honestly dude, I think you'd have a lot more success if you just came out and said, "listen, I believe in God. I believe that He has a plan for me and that following Him is the right thing to do." No one could really quarrell with that. They might not agree with you, but hey, that's your belief and it's tough to argue with it; I doubt you'd be have as much criticism raining down upon you.

The way you frame the debate, though, creates this adversarial atmosphere that seems to follow all of your posts. It is hard not to take the holier than thou attitude, if you'll pardon the pun, as a personal affront...

Re: The Devil

^Now that's well said toasty. I've been thinking all along that really what this whole discussion boils down to is faith...some have it and some do not. I could respect faith, even though I don't quite have it, but when you try to disguise faith as fact that's when I lose the respect.

If cdj would just realize that his factual discussion regarding the bible is predicated at least even minimally in faith we'd have an entirely different conversation. You can't tell me you could prove as a fact that Jesus walked on water or that he changed water into wine or that Moses split the Red Sea or Jonah survived inside a whale or Lazarus arose from the dead, etc. etc. These are things you may have faith and believe in, but there's absolutely no proof whatsoever that these events truly occured.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=rubyraks]I could respect faith, even though I don't quite have it, but when you try to disguise faith as fact that's when I lose the respect.[/QUOTE]

^^ now you in turn have nailed it yourself too Ruby, IMO. And Toasty made a good point as well for that matter.

And as a scientist in the making, I am not supposed to trust one source to tell me something: I need more sources that back it up. I need proof, real damn hard proof. And proof is not just some guy telling me something happened in a book that was written almost 2000 years ago. As for the Bible itself: it's too damn contradictory with what I see happening around me.

And if this whole life is a 'no pain no gain' thing, then it's pretty much like the initiation rites for a fraternity: fucking childish. I'd be like a toy in that case. This makes me question not my own purpose of existence, but also that of CDJ's God and heaven and all that's connected to it. What's the purpose of it all? Or is God just finding ways to avoid boredom in this big ass universe? How to explain the skeletons that clearly point to an evolutionary direction huh? God created this mess in 7 days but still somehow we manage to determine that this planet alone is almost 5 bln years old. How long is a day on God's calendar?

I'm always wondering if people still have that split-second chance to say 'FUCK!' when they realise the light just goes out at the end of the tube when they die, and they realise it was all a lie. Good thing you can't experience the feeling-incredibly-screwed-over-sensation when you're dead....

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]This makes me question not my own purpose of existence, but also that of CDJ's God and heaven and all that's connected to it. What's the purpose of it all?[/quote] It's a convenient, premade way to explain the unexplainable. Instead of coming up with your (not you, the "believers") own ideas on why we are here and how we got here, just follow the Bible, and believe "god" made it all. Easy enough...right??

Not for me :|

Re: The Devil

To be fair, some of us asked for CDJ's opinion(s), he didn't begin this thread to shove his views down our throats. Its a subject he takes interest in and I welcome his opinion, and enjoy the differing views everyone brings to the table. Some of you guys need to lighten up on the guy. If you don't agree with him (as I don't) continue the debate but tone down the ridicule.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=Yao] And proof is not just some guy telling me something happened in a book that was written almost 2000 years ago. As for the Bible itself: it's too damn contradictory with what I see happening around me. [/QUOTE]

... and contradictory with other versions of the Bible. The Bible itself actually wasn't [B]written[/B] 2000 years ago -- it was passed down orally for the first 400 years or so. And we're supposed to believe that they got it -- with "it" being the absolute literal Word of God -- down verbatim? Try keeping a story consistent through two retellings. Sorry, no sale.

This is highlighted by the fact that there are numerous different versions of the Bible. In fact, there are substantive differences between the different versions, Which one is the actual Word of God? Answer: it doesn't matter. It's allegory, it's symbollism, it's a group of stories that purports to outline a good way for us to live our lives. If following its teachings makes you happy, then by all means, go forward. If you follow what the Bible says (at least its broad themes of loving your neighbors, doing unto others, etc.), you probably [B]will[/B] be a good person -- a tad dull, perhaps, but a good person nevertheless.

Re: The Devil

[quote=toasty]The Bible itself actually wasn't [B]written[/B] 2000 years ago -- it was passed down orally for the first 400 years or so. And we're supposed to believe that they got it -- with "it" being the absolute literal Word of God -- down verbatim? Try keeping a story consistent through two retellings. Sorry, no sale.[/quote] Same here. But knowing this, some people still base their lives on it. :what

[quote=toasty]If you follow what the Bible says (at least its broad themes of loving your neighbors, doing unto others, etc.), you probably [B]will[/B] be a good person -- [B]a tad dull, perhaps, but a good person nevertheless[/B].[/quote] :CrackUp:

Re: The Devil

I'm still waiting for an explanation on those bible flaws I found/posed :what

Re: The Devil

Don't hold your breath...

Re: The Devil

[quote=picklemonkey]I'm still waiting for an explanation on those bible flaws I found/posed :what[/quote]

umm translation errors? :|

Re: The Devil

We are heading into December so time for me to do my Santa Clause theory . Santa Clause for kids Religion for adults

The legend of Santa Clause goes back to Saint Nicholas in Germany i know but the actual view we have of him was designed by Coca Cola . The reason he is there is to promise kids that by being good all year they will recieve presents which will bring them happiness . In short . Something happened that was blown out of proportion then it was exploited for money and then it was used as a tool to control . ( Don't get me wrong i love christmass but who's ever had their parents saying you won't get this or you won't get that unless you start behaving ) We use christmass because it's a yearly and tangable thing (suited for kids) . Religion is a longer time frame with less tangable rewards (so not suitable for kids) .

Sain't nicholas was an ordinary guy to start with who had a good heart and did a bit of good in his lifetime. But myth , legend , exageration , and people profiteering has given us a lie we tell to control others . See any simmilarities . Does it ring any bells YO HO HO

Re: The Devil

bah. you are all wrong. faith is in the heart and mind. you can not prove it, and you can not dis-prove it. no matter what text you use. it is a human choice to believe, because it is a choice, you can not convey that faith is a good or bad thing. we all make choices, some good, some bad. as we make a choice(s), there is another valid point of how we act upon that choice as well.

it really becomes a dead end road. the left is strong as the right. God made it that way.

Re: The Devil

In Holland we actually celebrate BOTH figures: Santa Claus though was an import figure in Christmas, but Saint Nicholas (Sinterklaas) is an unofficial holiday here, celebrated on 4th and 5th of december in the evening. Usually the 5th is presents evening, on which Saint Nicholas and his black henchmen drop presents for the good kids down the chimneys in the night. So that evening parent give their kids all kinds of presents, and as you get older and the myth goes away it turns into small presents evenings, or people build all kinds of weird things to hide their presents in and write poems (surprises). It's really cool actually, much more involvement than Christmas. And you can seriously pull some nice pranks with the surpise-presents :D, like hiding the present really deep, or mixing the filling with peanut butter thru which your victim will have to go with his/her hands to find the present, lol. I love that shit. Or you send someone on a quest in order to find their present. You can make a boat, a bicycle, or a giant penis with one infected swollen testicle to hide the present in (last one referred to a colleague who suffered from that at the time of Saint-Nicholas evening).

You should start doing that in the States too :D

Oh, and the biggest fun it all is keeping your construction secret, as well as the one the present is meant for. It's a damn soap the days before, cheating and sneaking to find out that shit.

Re: The Devil

Polar Express IMO.

Re: The Devil

Ure right ASDF faith is in the heart and mind . With that i have no problems. But stories of devils and gods are man made . An inner belief is selfmade not distorted , twisted ,cohersed or manipulated in order to achieve something. I have an inner belief that is probably way off the mark but it is a belief ( matter came from somewhere i believe that that matter could be god himself ) i am probably totaly wrong but it is a feeling , i don't think god anylonger has a consciousness or a care about us he just intentional exploded in order to create all that there is . my problem is about ppl believing in something as real as pixies at the bottom of the garden just becuase someone said they seen some there . just cos it was wrote down it don't make it true . ppl should think about what they believe .instead of thinking about what others believe

Re: The Devil

If Smith is the opposite of Neo, and you believe Heaven exists, then, yes, Hell too exists.

Re: The Devil

[quote=neoee]To be fair, some of us asked for CDJ's opinion(s), he didn't begin this thread to shove his views down our throats. Its a subject he takes interest in and I welcome his opinion, and enjoy the differing views everyone brings to the table. Some of you guys need to lighten up on the guy. If you don't agree with him (as I don't) continue the debate but tone down the ridicule.[/quote]

I am glad I am not the only one here who sees it this way.

as far as people saying that if I would just say it is a matter of faith then the conversations would be less hostile............. I have not brought any hostility to this forum. It is those who respond to my post with hostility,

will be back in a few to start answering some of the posts

keep up the good work mates.......... It has been an encouragement to my faith to have had these in depth discussions.

It needs to be clear that the only reason I post in here is to supply the information. What you guys do with it is up to you. I am not so silly as to think I can make any of you believe. That is up to you to decipher the evidence.

Re: The Devil

I wanted to add one thing before I go shower......... I too am as human as the rest of you. Yes there are things in my past I have done that dishonor God and what he has done for us. There are times in the past when my faith has been not so strong. I too have wondered if there can really be a God. The reason was I did not know as much about God and the Bible as I do now. So to find out I started to look into it very deply. Going outside the Bible for answers. I thought that if the Bible was the ony thing that was there to prove God existed that I was not sure what I was believeing in.

There comes a point when you study the BIble that it starts to become very clear that it is true and its doctrine are sound and that God exists. There are things that exist outside the Bible taht prove its truth. I have tons of this stuff here on my desk and in my library.

It takes a person who is willing to admit they can be wrong about their beliefs to find out they may be right. There is nothing wrong with searching out the answers to our existence. There is however something wrong when you look to the creation to define itself. That alone is enough for many people to believe in God.

1. We are here
2. We had a beginning and we have an end.
3. Man has not foound a single answer to where he came from since he stated looking.

What defines faith? Believeing something simply because others say it is so........... or finding out for yourself?

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj] 2. We had a beginning and we have an end.[/quote]

I don't know what you're made of, but i do not have an end, as energy cannot be destroyed. The human body is a vehicle for energy, when i'm finally done with this vehicle, i'll move on, but i won't end.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj] 3. Man has not found a single answer to where he came from since he stated looking.[/quote]

No offense CDJ, but doesn't that kinda negate everything you've said up to this point? If man has not found a single answer to where he came from, then how can Christianity be the [I]only[/I] answer in regards to man's creation?

Re: The Devil

[quote=BSully828]No offense CDJ, but doesn't that kinda negate everything you've said up to this point? If man has not found a single answer to where he came from, then how can Christianity be the [I]only[/I] answer in regards to man's creation?[/quote]

I said man has not found an answer. I did not say the answer did not exist.

Why look to man to answer a question about where he came from? Seriously consider that concept. Even if we label our answer "science"............ isnt it still man defining his existence. Man invented the science. A deep thought inside yourselves will tell you that even you have manipulated things to get the answer you want out of something.

Statistics can be cheated. I am going to put a concept out here that I have lived by and it is a topic of a book I am writing. There is only one true statistic. The possibility of anything happening is only 50/50. No matter what it is. It will either come to pass or it will not. The example I use to best describe it is the car vs. plane battle.

Which is safer way to travel. I will prove to you that both are equal.

What are your odds of surviving a car crash?............ 50/50... you do or you do not. There is no halfway survive or halfway not survive a car crash. What are your odds of surviving a plane crash?.........50/50.... you do or you do not There is no halfway survive or halfway not survive a plane crash.

So if you had to guess who made the statistic that plane travel was safer than auto travel, knowing the true odds of survival, who do you think twisted the odds to make plane travel look safer? The auto industry????

In all actuality, we know as much about ourselves and our existence as a dog does. We can no better define how we came to be than a dog winning the nobel prize for best guess. Man is not perfect so anything made by man can not be perfect. That which is perfect can not come from anything imperfect. They are opposite like the N and S Pole.

1. We are here
2. We have a beginning and an end
3. Do you know where you came from?

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj] Why look to man to answer a question about where he came from? Seriously consider that concept. Even if we label our answer "science"............ isnt it still man defining his existence. Man invented the science. A deep thought inside yourselves will tell you that even you have manipulated things to get the answer you want out of something. [/quote]

Man invented the bible and religion as well.

Re: The Devil

[quote="toasty"]Oh come on. The Bible isn't right because other religions are wrong. [/quote]

Not the reason for the paper. Obviously if someone does not believe in God then why would I try to prove God's existence through a means they find discredible.

Maybe it is for those who do believe in God who may read this as well. Or not. 50/50 chance I am telling the truth, or not. ;)

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]Man invented the bible and religion as well.[/quote]

but you can not prove that, it is just speculation about something you do not want to believe exists.

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks]You can't tell me you could prove as a fact that Jesus walked on water or that he changed water into wine or that Moses split the Red Sea or Jonah survived inside a whale or Lazarus arose from the dead, etc. etc. These are things you may have faith and believe in, but there's absolutely no proof whatsoever that these events truly occured.[/quote]

How do you know that Napoloen existed?

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]but you can not prove that,[/quote]

you cannot prove the opposite either.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]you cannot prove the opposite either.[/quote]

So who is the authority then?

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE]So who is the authority then?[/QUOTE]

you are.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]. As for the Bible itself: it's too damn contradictory with what I see happening around me. [/quote]

Are you basing that feeling on what the Bible says or what you see other people who call themselves religious doing and saying?

Re: The Devil

^both imo.

Re: The Devil

[quote=evangelion]It's a convenient, premade way to explain the unexplainable. Instead of coming up with your (not you, the "believers") own ideas on why we are here and how we got here, just follow the Bible, and believe "god" made it all. Easy enough...right??

Not for me :|[/quote]

and a man you have never met before who had the first thought about carbon dating is good enough for you?

A man who sailed around in a boat and looked at some animals is good enough for you.

a man this and a man that......... we are not perfect creatures, so nothing perfect comes from us. It is not possible. it is like sun shining in darkness.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Jenks]^both imo.[/quote]

and being a man that has done things contrary to God and know that I now speak of God all the time..... I am well aware that it is a bad thing to judge the Bible based on the acts of people. If you want to judge the Bible then you should use what the Bible says about people and how they should act rather than what people say the Bible says on how they should act. Isnt it posssible that people being imperfect can misunderstand and misuse something if we just take other peoples word on what it says?