Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]If God wants a star to shine on a single piece of your hair on your head he could.[/quote] What kills me, is you really believe that. God can do anything and everything. He can shine a star on my head (which me, you, or anyone else has NEVER seen), but he can't cure AIDS, stop war or end poverty. Seems like a good use of his powers.

You know what really bothers me the most about all of your recent "teachings" CDJ?? It is a prime example of the hypocrisy that most religious people show in one way or another. Wasn't your "King Shit" story about trying to fuck some chick?? Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you were not married to this girl. And I'm also going to guess that being as "enlightened" as you are in god's holy ways that sex outside of marriage is a sin. A sin that someone so devoutly Christian would never willingly commit. So tell me, devoute Christian and spreader of the "good news"...how does that work??

This should be good

Re: The Devil

wow this thread sure went all over the place.... and in some really absurd ways at that......

First and foremost, ask which side of you, you are questioning the most important issue here i.e. "is there a God ?"

My religious side convinces me of it based on teachings and beliefs but my scientific side toys with the idea. Isnt is very very likely that a higher intelligence thats been alive in the universe a cool 7 billion years longer than us has developed some remarkably "nifty" scientific abilities i.e. changing weathers, moving mountains, resurrecting the dead, expanding the number of liveable, viewable and interactable dimensions, teleportation, time travel etc. etc. and that we're probably some obscure experiment in a petre dish with whom they're controlling everything there is to control ?

Ok that was a bit overthrown but honestly, in all likelyhood, there probably isnt a "God" especially in the image we've portayed in this thread. There is a higher power, but thats just what it is, a power, he is not bearded in white robe hanging on a cross or sitting in Gold laden clothing and jewellry adorned by the Hindu Gods. Heaven and hell are possibly corners of the universe that the quantum of positive and negative energy reside without actually touching and negating each other out. The residual forces from a dying body be it positive or negative will most likely be drawn to those corners of the universe, consequently, you have a distorted image of heaven and hell. Seriously, there are so many things when we look through a telescope that we realize could quite well be the reality behind the distorted perception of religious books... case and point.... Dark Matter.

Thanks to Jenks, I saw "What the bleep do we know" and the woman raised an unrealistically excellent point in regards to God. If God, seriously as technologically advanced as he is, taking into consideration the complexity of the universe and the immaculate balance in which everything in the cosmos is, looking at his achievements on our very own earth with the specatucalar precision in which mother nature does everything that the does, the incredible phenomenon of Gaia and so many other countless items too complex to list in this post, if this God at the end of the day, sits in his chair to judge if you go to heaven or hell, has in fact wasted an incredible amount of his ultimate super powers in making a decision so poor when in fact the results of your actions (i.e. Karma) could have easily punished you on earth for what you have done.

God could well be a power, a form of "balancing" energy around us consequently affecting and balancing all that interacts with it. We as forms of energy are not excluded.

[quote=cowardly dj]If God wants a star to shine on a single piece of your hair on your head he could.[/quote]

CDJ there is no way that God will come to earth in a shining light and a flowing robe and drop a star on your strand of hair unless his last name was copperfield. I do believe in God, I dont believe he will do that. There has never been any instance so remotely similar to say it can be done. Making a blind woman see or a crippled walk is one thing, but to think that the fine balance of the cosmos can be toyed to that extent even by God is incomprehensible.

And this is probably the very reason that the learned / priests in most religions found it so much easier to tell the masses "its an act of God" simply because it way past their level of understanding as well

Re: The Devil

A nice movie to watch in this respect is "The Discovery of Heaven", after a famous book by a Dutch writer. Tells about the workings of heaven to create a human that can bring back the tables with the 10 commandments.

The book is undefeated, but they say the film is pretty well done in fact. So check it out. One of the main parts is played by Stephen Fry, if anyone here knows him. Brilliant actor.

Re: The Devil

I still haven't seen what the bleep.., been recommended to me multiple times. Great post E, gave me some more material to add to my views.

[quote=CDJ]If God wants a star to shine on a single piece of your hair on your head he could.[/quote]

CDJ, I think the following quote sum's it up:

"God does not play dice with the universe." -- [B]Albert Einstein

[/B]What I think Einstein meant by that statement is that even God follows the rules he's created (physics).

Re: The Devil

i see my reply went over well in this thread...you all entertain the believer idea....

Re: The Devil

[quote=neoee]I still haven't seen what the bleep.., been recommended to me multiple times. Great post E, gave me some more material to add to my views.

CDJ, I think the following quote sum's it up:

"God does not play dice with the universe." -- [B]Albert Einstein[/B]

What I think Einstein meant by that statement is that even God follows the rules he's created (physics).[/quote]

That makes sense to you neoee because it is the truth. He does not go outside his own rules but I ask, How do you know what his rules are if you have never sought them out?

Let me put it to you like this. I have heard it asked before if God could make a rock even he can not lift, or could God make 2 mountains side-by-side with no valley between. The simple answer is this: All you know about your existence is what the creator has allowed you to know. Outside of that it is all speculation. Man is not infallable, science, invented by man, is not infallable. To ask if God can do someting like make a rock so big that even he can not lift it, or make a star to shine on Jesus, or shine on your head is putting man's fallable ideas of nature and its limits on the creator who made the limits. That is foolishness.

Would God go outside his own limits to prove a point? No. A true scholar of the Bible knows that God has no limits but he has limited what he will do on earth. He has told us his limitations he has placed on interaction with the earth. That does not mean that he can't, it just means that he won't.

God has not said he would stop aids, or stop suffering, or make this world a better place. What would be the joy in looking to heaven as a place of eternal rest if you had nothing to compare it to. I can name at least one phrase you and/or someone you know has said many times that echoes the concept I speak of here....[I]No pain, No gain[/I]. If that is not a saying that was taken from the concept of suffering for the better good then I do not know what is.

Re: The Devil

No response to my question, huh?? Figures...

Re: The Devil

[quote=dek0021]i see my reply went over well in this thread...you all entertain the believer idea....[/quote]

you do too, you just do not know it yet.

think about this:

you have to acknowledge that fact that something has to be able to exist in order to suggest that it does not exist.

Just another infallable proof of God's existence outside of the Bible. You can not say God does not exist without entertaining the idea He might.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]That makes sense to you neoee because it is the truth. He does not go outside his own rules but I ask, How do you know what his rules are if you have never sought them out?

Let me put it to you like this. I have heard it asked before if God could make a rock even he can not lift, or could God make 2 mountains side-by-side with no valley between. The simple answer is this: All you know about your existence is what the creator has allowed you to know. Outside of that it is all speculation. Man is not infallable, science, invented by man, is not infallable. To ask if God can do someting like make a rock so big that even he can not lift it, or make a star to shine on Jesus, or shine on your head is putting man's fallable ideas of nature and its limits on the creator who made the limits. That is foolishness.[/QUOTE]

Hmm...my athe?stic counterpart for this thought is that nature may be well beyond man's comprehension, therefore I do not try to explain my lack of knowledge by attributing it all to a higher being. ;)

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]God has not said he would stop aids, or stop suffering, or make this world a better place. What would be the joy in looking to heaven as a place of eternal rest if you had nothing to compare it to. I can name at least one phrase you and/or someone you know has said many times that echoes the concept I speak of here....[I]No pain, No gain[/I]. If that is not a saying that was taken from the concept of suffering for the better good then I do not know what is.[/QUOTE]

It was however directed at gain in this world, I'm sure :D

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]you have to acknowledge that fact that something has to be able to exist in order to suggest that it does not exist.[/QUOTE] :ROFLMAO:

Let's imagine a black long-hair cat with white spots around his body. he has an erect herpes-infected horse penis grafted onto his head like a unicorn, an MJ mullet growing on its head, bad electro emitting from his ass, and iPods as paws. this cat is the nicest cat that has ever walked the earth, had the best heart, and never meant any harm toward anybody. regardless, people treated him like shit. they spit on him, threw rocks at him, and eventually nailed him to a cross and burned him.

this cat isn't real, and he doesn't have to exist in order to suggest that he doesn't. I created an image of how he looked and treated others from my description... the more descriptive picture given, the better we can picture him and his personality in our head. The cat never existed, but I'm still able to suggest that without evidence or proof a creature like this never walked the earth. the same goes with God. The world has been telling detailed stories of him for centuries, and we have all painted a picture of him in our minds with details on how he looked and acted. it doesn't mean he existed... it just means we understand the concept without having to see it.

he doesn't exist, btw :lol:

Re: The Devil

CDJ If God existed . Correction my appologies .. I'll start again. If religion explained Gods existence then why would there be so many , there are good righteous muslims/hindu's/jews and christians . Plenty of devoute people from other sects and religions too . All these ppl want to live their lives in accordance to gods laws and teachings . All of these religions state that by following a different religion you will be denied passage to paradise. Or in Hindu's / Buhdaisim case it will determain what form you come back in in your next life . Here's my point if religion was valid and God cared he would bring these ppl under one banner and not let them spend a wasted life of false worship . God may exist but "[B]your"[/B] god dosn't

Re: The Devil

I just had this thought.

I know that God exists because there is no substance or base to any other religion or god or diety and especially man's thoughts. Every man is for himself. Think about anything you do in your life is for you. Look how we manipulate the people around us to make our life easier. It is inherent in every single person on the planet that has ever lived. I challenge anyone to find something they are doing that will not in some way be beneficial to them. If you look deep down inside yourself you will know what I mean. Mankind is selfish in every aspect of its existence. The Bible says it is our core sin. So having said that here is why I think the Bible is right about the creation of man. Let me paint you the Biblical version of why man is so selfish in everything we do. Genesis 3 tells us that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit which is in the middle of the garden because when thy do they will die. Eve was tempted and here is what she was told "and the serpent said to the woman,"you shall surely not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open and you will be like God , knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5). Eve had a choice. She was told not to eat by God and she was told to eat by satan. She chose to eat. She wanted to be like God. She made a choice for self over other. It was the first sin spoken of in the Bible. It is the core sin of all mankind. It is the sin that broke our bond with God. All we do as people is do for ourselves. We are even so selfish as to take the lives of other people for a few dollars. All humans are motivated by the same thing---self. If The Bible is the only literature on our creator that exists that describes our core humanism and has no flaws in it's desription.

Find me anything anyone does that is not self-motivated

Look how foolish man is to think he can define and describe his own creation. It is like windows XP telling microsoft "you did not program me. I evolved from a single nanobit of information." No matter how hard the program tried and how convincing some lines of the program seemed, can the program really tell the programmer how it came to be?

Re: The Devil

[img]http://img372.imageshack.us/img372/4724/notlistening5rg.jpg[/img]

how does pregnancy happen? it starts when two different cells fuse together... from there, the cells constantly divide and grow until a fetus exists. imo the same thing happened when man and woman came about... some cells fused together from some freak accident like lightning or something, and over the next however million years just evolved until we reached what we are today.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]Just another infallable proof of God's existence outside of the Bible. You can not say God does not exist without entertaining the idea He might.[/quote] I've mentioned this before in another thread but here it is again. We are the ONLY known species which can contemplate our own deaths. I mean just think about that for a sec, no other animal even realizes it is going to die someday. Now with that in mind, because we are so advanced (relatively speaking) are we simply aware of God or did we just create him to help ease the fear of the unknown after we die?

[quote=cowardly dj]That makes sense to you neoee because it is the truth. He does not go outside his own rules but I ask, How do you know what his rules are if you have never sought them out?[/quote] After reading your reply it got me thinking a bit about quantam physics, how we can look at something one second and its one thing and look again and its another (states), so I guess we are still learning his rules from a scientific perspective, but I still doubt their could be any way in which the star scenerio could be realized, but there's still the chance that I'm wrong.

I was reading this paper on time travel not too long ago. The paper theorized how previous known states could not be changed. Eg., if your dad exists today you cannot travel back into the past and kill him since he exists in the future. Why I bring this up is because when the parting of the red sea was looked at they found where Jesus split it was the shallowest part and also with the right wind it could certianly have happened. Now back to my previous states being known comment. Since the state of the riverbed was unknown by anyone it was changeable, had it been known, it would not have been. This is what I mean by God playing by his own rules. But again the star scenerio, as mentioned previously by others, is outside of the rules that govern our universe. At least as we currently understand them.

As to seeking God's rules from a religious prespective, I have sought them out. Its the very reason we are having this discussion. I am open to different views from others. Its how I have chosen to seek out the truth. I don't believe one book contains all the answers, nor do I believe that there are really any right or wrong paths only ones that allow me to believe in a God. I've gone from previously considering myself an aethist to beliving, that in itself is a huge step. Many religions will tell you that God is infinite, as such I believe that he would not produce only one path to him, rather all paths lead to him.

Anyhow I've rambled long enough but before I end, you failed to address my failed grade analogy and I'd really like to know your take after having considered my view on it.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]I just had this thought.

I know that God exists because there is no substance or base to any other religion or god or diety and especially man's thoughts. Every man is for himself. Think about anything you do in your life is for you. Look how we manipulate the people around us to make our life easier. It is inherent in every single person on the planet that has ever lived. I challenge anyone to find something they are doing that will not in some way be beneficial to them. If you look deep down inside yourself you will know what I mean. Mankind is selfish in every aspect of its existence. The Bible says it is our core sin. So having said that here is why I think the Bible is right about the creation of man. Let me paint you the Biblical version of why man is so selfish in everything we do. Genesis 3 tells us that God told Adam and Eve not to eat of the fruit which is in the middle of the garden because when thy do they will die. Eve was tempted and here is what she was told "and the serpent said to the woman,"you shall surely not die! For God knows that in the day you eat from it your eyes will be open and you will be like God , knowing good and evil" (Genesis 3:4-5). Eve had a choice. She was told not to eat by God and she was told to eat by satan. She chose to eat. She wanted to be like God. She made a choice for self over other. It was the first sin spoken of in the Bible. It is the core sin of all mankind. It is the sin that broke our bond with God. All we do as people is do for ourselves. We are even so selfish as to take the lives of other people for a few dollars. All humans are motivated by the same thing---self. If The Bible is the only literature on our creator that exists that describes our core humanism and has no flaws in it's desription.

Find me anything anyone does that is not self-motivated

Look how foolish man is to think he can define and describe his own creation. It is like windows XP telling microsoft "you did not program me. I evolved from a single nanobit of information." No matter how hard the program tried and how convincing some lines of the program seemed, can the program really tell the programmer how it came to be?[/QUOTE]

Well, like, in nature the most selfish animal survives. Pretty simple. Jesus was an Utopist.

Re: The Devil

if you guys think the star scenarion is impossible then I would like you guys take on the time God stopped the sun from going down so one of the battles of his people could be won.

Yes God actually stopped the sun in its tracks to make the day longer.

The designer always knows the "back doors" to its creation.

Re: The Devil

[quote=neoee]I've mentioned this before in another thread but here it is again. We are the ONLY known species which can contemplate our own deaths. I mean just think about that for a sec, no other animal even realizes it is going to die someday. Now with that in mind, because we are so advanced (relatively speaking) are we simply aware of God or did we just create him to help ease the fear of the unknown after we die?[/quote]

If you read the Genesis account of creation you will see that after Adam and Eve ate, they became mortal. God designed Adam and Eve to live forever. When God told them not to eat of the fruit or they would surely die, He did not mean instant death like it was poison or something. It meant they would die eventually after their body failed. Death came to man through sin. We know from that one sin, we will all eventually die in the body but our soul lives on in one of two places.

It is part of us now and we can not deny it. Why do you think you look for more after this life. It is your programming.

we were designed to live forever. That is why we are the only species to contemplate our death.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj] [COLOR=black][COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]Look how foolish man is to think he can define and describe his own creation.[/COLOR][/COLOR][/COLOR][/quote][COLOR=black]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]If man is (and I agree with you here) incapable of defining and describing his own [I]creation[/I], then how the hell/heaven/purgatory can he define and describe his own [I]creator[/I]? Continuing with your WXP analogy what is the easier process to understand: the process of creating an Excel spreadsheet or the process of the computer programs that create the images you see on the screen?[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]For us, creating the spreadsheet is as easy as point and click ? want to create an intricate formula to count up a series of values? Auto format cells for specific results? Click the icon, input the data and presto. But define and describe the process going on within your computer ? the way that little machine translates a series of 1?s and 0?s to create everything from font to function. All we do is hit a key on the keyboard and within an instant the computer has received the signal, translated the information, created the corresponding symbol and presents it on screen. The sequence of procedures that takes place within my computer is totally beyond me, and I suspect beyond most people as well. [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]By the same token, creating life is as easy as that spreadsheet: [/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]Step 1: Insert rod A into slot B [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]Step 2: Remove [/COLOR][/COLOR] [COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]Step 3: Repeat with vigor.[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]Now try and tell me the [I]process[/I] behind it. Not the physical process ? science has done a good job of that ? but the personal (or, if you like) spiritual process. How that little zygote goes from a pair of cells to the creature that walks the earth complete with its own appearance, personality, wants, fears, ect.. ect..[/COLOR][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][COLOR=silver]It is a process beyond anything our minds are capable of handling yet you say organized religion ? check that ? your and [I]only[/I] your organized religion has somehow figured it out? Impossible. I?m sorry CDJ, you can?t say that man is foolish for trying to define and describe his creation and in the same breath say there is only one true description and definition for his creator. [/COLOR][/COLOR] [/COLOR]

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]if you guys think the star scenarion is impossible then I would like you guys take on the time God stopped the sun from going down so one of the battles of his people could be won. [B] Yes God actually stopped the sun in its tracks to make the day longer.[/B]

The designer always knows the "back doors" to its creation.[/quote] You have got to be kidding me.

Seriously man, if the Bible told you god was green, made of Jell-o and good to eat you'd probably believe that too. :roll: Remember what it was like to think for yourself. Those were good days, weren't they??

Re: The Devil

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver][FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]Here's a few thoughts about the Bible that should be considered no matter WHAT you believe:[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]1 -- Like I’ve said before, the Bible (and with that Christianity in general) was not the first to use the symbols like the garden, forbidden fruit, virgin birth, death and resurrection as the sacred tenets of the faith - not by a long shot. The ideas preceeded Christianity by more than a millennia, the authors (plural) of the Bible were just presenting an updated version of an age old story.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]2 -- When the Bible was originally written there were scores of different versions running around with completely different takes on some of the main themes. For example, one said that the father and the son were one in the same (total blasphemy by today’s “standards”). That sect of Christianity had an ardent following that rivaled the sect that said otherwise. It had just as many followers, churches, priests and pulpits as the other but spoke a totally different idea. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]There were literally dozens of groups just like this running about which kept the religion fractured. The leading minds of the time came together to form the Council of Nicea, which was in essence a huge editing session. At this assembly the members of the council literally handpicked which books would make up the official Biblical canon. Imagine that! The pages that have defined the course of Western Civilization were created by a group of men sitting at table trying to figure out how best to keep the power they had at the time.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]3 -- Believe it or not, but the Bible was not originally written in English – astonishing, I know. And anyone who has studied a foreign language knows that not all words and phrases have a 1:1 correspondence from one language to another. It should come to no surprise then that the original language of the Bible, Hebrew, has lingo that aren’t found in modern English or old English for that matter. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]Did you know that in one of those versions of the holy text I mentioned in #2, there were no words that translate to the words “good” or “evil”. Not [I]one[/I]! My that puts quite a spin on the overall message, doesn't it? Instead of “good” or “evil” the translation was for words that meant “ripe” or “unripe” – which leans towards the more agricultural symbolism that was prevalent in the religions that preceded Catholicism. The idea was that life was a cycle of renewal and that which may be “bad” in not [I]eternally[/I] bad but, like a rotten fruit, bad in its current form. That fruit will perish though and return to the earth, the [I]Mother[/I] earth and be born again, born anew (resurrection…hmm that theme found anywhere else in the good book?). [/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]For centuries people have dissected every letter of every word found in the Bible, looking for some greater meaning. They’ve even found codes and patterns that point to some great system of messages within the pages. They’re looking so close that they fail to realize that those words were not originally photocopied and faxed, but handwritten by men in dark rooms with cramped hands and tired eyes. Those writers had ideas of their own, taking a little creative liberty here and there or maybe making some corrections that they see fit. An exact science this was not, neither then should its study be. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver][COLOR=black][FONT=Arial][COLOR=silver]What is important is the meaning that lies beneath the names and places – all the trivial minutiae that clutters the pages and dilutes the message. All of that nonsense is what splinters the world religions and has caused grief and anguish for centuries. Those who wave their particular book and claim it to be the one and only one way have missed the message entirely and ruin that which they claim to honor most – the idea of “God”.[/COLOR] [/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT][/FONT][/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR][/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: The Devil

it is a hoax. you all are going to hell, even I.

Re: The Devil

7 pages totally off topic. ;)

You may well find that the Forbidden fruit refers to carnal knowlegde, hence once it was obtained it was a sharp exit from eden.

So any ideas on this Satan fella?

Re: The Devil

all I know she likes it hot and is a mean gal. Also she is red because of the fire down there. I think she is Indian or has Indian blood. I am not sure. Would not want to meet her in a dark alley.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]if you guys think the star scenarion is impossible then I would like you guys take on the time God stopped the sun from going down so one of the battles of his people could be won.

Yes God actually stopped the sun in its tracks to make the day longer.

The designer always knows the "back doors" to its creation.[/QUOTE]

^^ Holy fuck...next thing you're telling it's the Brothers Grimm that wrote the Bible.

:Preachin:

Re: The Devil

i remember my own faith stating the world is flat. also planet earth is the center.

this is my exact issue with faith. people are wrong. God is right.

man has been so wrong so many times, even with his own God.

blah.

My God judges, not me. It is not my job nor place.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Morgan]So any ideas on this Satan fella?[/quote] He/it is a fairytale, just like god. Told to little children for thousands of years to make them behave. Told to lesser intelligent people by more intelligent people for thousands of years to control them into believing that if they followed their ideology they would not go to hell...which is also a fairytale. Believed in by millions of others to give them a reason to be a good person and live a good life.

None of these which I believe in or need.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]1. God is a man and made man in his image and made man first.

2. God made Eve as a "helper" for Adam.

3. Eve sinned first by falling to the temptation. Her punishment and all the women after her were to follow behind man. Pain in childbirth is a direct punishment for Eve's sin for all women. Since God made the decree that woman was mans helper man naturally has the role of leader.[/QUOTE] So what you're saying here is sexual discrimination is actually a biblical thing and there's nothing wrong with that? and that's an all-loving god, right?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]You have to spend time examining each and looking for flaws. The overall content of the claimed religion. I for one do not want to be caught on the wrong side when it all ends so I spend a HUGE amount of time outside work into looking at the Bible and its claims and all the other religions and their claims. The Bible is the only one that is consisten throughtout, flawless. There are flaws in every single religion outside of the Bible and its God. There have been no proven flaws of the Bible EVER.

I can show you the flaws in any religion. Just ask.[/QUOTE] So based on that, there can't be any flaws within Judiasm either since Christianity builds upon the Old Testament...which accorcing to you is flawless. So how do you decide between the two. If they're both flawless, what makes Christianity more "correct"?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]the word knowledge is often misused to mean knowledge equal to God's. That is not the case it refers to the knowledge of good and evil. To sum it up in easy terms it was a load of guilt Adam and Eve felt for doing what God asked them not to do. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fruit. It was the concept of chosing to obey or not to obey. A free choice for them and us as well.

as far as the do whatever else you like.... Adam and Eve were created sinless and designed to live forever. They were never goin to die. so to them do whatever you like did not include any sin until they ate of the tree and their eyes were opened[/QUOTE]

Are you here limiting the meaning of the word "knowledge" to just right and wrong? Isn't that nothing but changing the terms to fit your argument. And even with your changed terms, so you're saying first thing god says is I don't want you to know right from wrong, you just need to listen to me. If I don't know right and wrong and my only option to know that is through god, aren't I then limiting my ability to choose (without an understanding of which actions have which consequences leaves no real choice...just a guess)?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]religion has not spawned a single war. man has using his take on religion to do what he wanted in his greed.

there is an absolute truth to God and his word. To know this truth you have to study it in great depth. It has to be your sole existence. If you do not then you can misunderstand something about it.

This has happened time and time again and will always happen. God's word can not be blamed for man taking it and twisting it to meet his needs. Instead of looking to blame religion for the wrong, why dont we blame the person who misunderstood and misused it.[/QUOTE] Why don't we blame the god who created man and allowed him to have these misunderstandings? Why does this god allow these misunderstandings to perpetuate and grow over time rather than putting an end to them?

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]you have to acknowledge that fact that something has to be able to exist in order to suggest that it does not exist.

Just another infallable proof of God's existence outside of the Bible. You can not say God does not exist without entertaining the idea He might.[/QUOTE] Are you actually serious here? Cause I could just as easily reverse the logic of this argument to show how "infallable" proof of god's non-existence is based on your reasoning.

Re: The Devil

:RockOn:

Re: The Devil

[img]http://img415.imageshack.us/img415/9646/dogma10ys.jpg[/img]

ok... bear with me on this. more than one religion says that if you don't believe their religion, you're going to hell. that means, if you don't believe christianity, you're going to hell... and if you don't believe in catholicism, you're going to hell. don't forget both religions are the "right" one. therefore, isn't everyone going to hell? so why not just be agnostic and quit being scared about the fires of hell.

Re: The Devil

[quote=evangelion]You know what really bothers me the most about all of your recent "teachings" CDJ?? It is a prime example of the hypocrisy that most religious people show in one way or another. Wasn't your "King Shit" story about trying to fuck some chick?? Now I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you were not married to this girl. And I'm also going to guess that being as "enlightened" as you are in god's holy ways that sex outside of marriage is a sin. A sin that someone so devoutly Christian would never willingly commit. So tell me, devoute Christian and spreader of the "good news"...how does that work??

This should be good[/quote]

I was not avoiding the question. In fact it is not a question at all. It is a weapon. You have taken something from my past and are using it in an attempt to discredit me, the things I am saying and my future posts.

I am happy to anwer any questions but this clearly is not a question.

But the question itself is a good question. It has merit and depth despite the manner in which it was put across.

First you say it is hypocrisy. This is a word that is used over and over again in the wrong context. Here is the best description for hypocrisy: insincerity by virtue of pretending to have qualities or beliefs that you do not really have. Saying something is wrong as you do it with no intent to stop. Example, a parent who smokes and tells their children not to smoke as they light up in front of them. That is hypocrisy.

What you have done here is taken a word and put your definition on it and tried to corner me with it.

So keeping in mind the definition of hypocrisy I do not qualify as a hypocrit for 2 reasons.

1. I was not a faithul Christian until about 2-3 years ago. Anything in my past that was contrary to what I speak of now are two seperate scenarios and can not be combined. It is like comparing apples and oranges. Sure they are both fruit but not of the same tree.
2. I am not pretending to follow God, I do follow God and what he says.

Does that clear anything up for you?

Re: The Devil

[quote=picklemonkey]ok... bear with me on this. more than one religion says that if you don't believe their religion, you're going to hell. that means, if you don't believe christianity, you're going to hell... and if you don't believe in catholicism, you're going to hell. don't forget both religions are the "right" one. therefore, isn't everyone going to hell? so why not just be agnostic and quit being scared about the fires of hell.[/quote]

Anyone can say their way is the right way. I can say that you have to pick your nose 5 times a day facing the south pole or you will suffer greatly forever and ever. Just because I say semething does not make it so. It needs a base.

I have a question to ask anyone:

How many things do you have to find wrong with somthing to discredit it?

one....two....ten.....????

People have been trying to disprove the Bible for as long as it has been around. There has never been a single flaw found in the Bible.

I am working on a paper I will put up here soon I hope. It will be called the Bible vs. the Koran.

When you put the Bible next to any other religious text you will soon see the infallability of the Bible and how mans invented religions are just that........invented.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]Anyone can say their way is the right way. I can say that you have to pick your nose 5 times a day facing the south pole or you will suffer greatly forever and ever. Just because I say semething does not make it so. It needs a base.

I have a question to ask anyone:

How many things do you have to find wrong with somthing to discredit it?

one....two....ten.....????

People have been trying to disprove the Bible for as long as it has been around. There has never been a single flaw found in the Bible.

I am working on a paper I will put up here soon I hope. It will be called the Bible vs. the Koran.

When you put the Bible next to any other religious text you will soon see the infallability of the Bible and how mans invented religions are just that........invented.[/QUOTE]

You can stop working on that paper as far as I'm concerned CDJ: I'd be willing to read it if it would give me a little more insight into either religion, but to me this will look as if you are comparing Lord of the Rings with Star Wars and try to prove that one of the two is better because the other story contains 'flaws'.

[img]http://www.imgshost.com/uploads/4e95d086ab.gif[/img]

Re: The Devil

DT 6:5, MT 22:37, MK 12:30, LK 10:27 Love God. DT 6:13, PS 33:8, 34:9, 111:10, 115:13, 128:1, 147:11, PR 8:13, 16:6, 19:23, 22:4, IS 8:13, LK 12:5, 1PE 2:17 Fear God. 1JN 4:18 There is no fear in love.

PR 30:5 Every word of God proves true. 1KI 22:23, 2CH 18:22, JE 4:10, JE 20:7, EZ 14:9 God deceives some of the prophets.

JE 8:8 The scribes falsify the word. 2TH 2:11-12 God deceives the wicked (to be able to condemn them). (Note: Every word of God cannot prove true if God deceives anyone at all; the Bible cannot be trusted if the scribes falsify the word. The first reference is mutually exclusive with the other three. Thus, the Bible cannot be the perfect work of a perfect and loving God since one or more of the above references is obviously untrue. Note also: Some versions use the word "persuade" rather than "deceives." The context makes clear, however, that deception is involved.)

EZ 20:25 God says that he intentionally gave out bad laws. (This means that God-given laws or commandments are sometimes suspect.)

LK 1:26-38 The angel who appears to Mary to foretell the birth of Jesus says that Jesus will be given the throne of David, that he will reign over the house of Jacob forever, and that his kingdom will never end. (None of this took place nor can it now be fulfilled.)

MT 16:28, MK 9:1, LK 9:27 Jesus says that some of his listeners will not taste death before he comes again in his kingdom. This was said almost 2000 years ago. (Note: This and many other passages indicate that Jesus was to come again in a relatively short period of time and not just "quickly" as present day Biblicists assert. All of his listeners are now dead, yet Jesus has not come again in his kingdom. All of the alleged words of Jesus recorded in the Bible are therefore suspect.)

MK 16:17-18 A believer can handle snakes or drink poison and not experience any harm. (Note: Many unfortunate believers have died as a result of handling snakes and drinking poison. This kind of assertion negates the Bible as a useful guidebook for life.)

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]You can stop working on that paper as far as I'm concerned CDJ: I'd be willing to read it if it would give me a little more insight into either religion, but to me this will look as if you are comparing Lord of the Rings with Star Wars and try to prove that one of the two is better because the other story contains 'flaws'.

[IMG]http://www.imgshost.com/uploads/4e95d086ab.gif[/IMG][/quote]

I do what I do for those who want to know, not those who do not. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=Yao]You can stop working on that paper as far as I'm concerned CDJ: I'd be willing to read it if it would give me a little more insight into either religion, but to me this will look as if you are comparing Lord of the Rings with Star Wars and try to prove that one of the two is better because the other story contains 'flaws'.

[img]http://www.imgshost.com/uploads/4e95d086ab.gif[/img][/QUOTE] yeah, i won't be reading it either. I hate to say it, but I already don't believe, and this isn't going to convert me.

I need to just go buy a bible and read it cover to cover. I guess then I'll have "reason" to hate it... other than the fact that it's a story that some dudes wrote.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.[/quote]

You can lead a horse to a mirage, and the horse will wonder, "Where's the fucking water chief???"

Re: The Devil

David had seven brothers. 1 Samuel 16:10-11 David had six brothers. 1 Chronicles 2:13-15

Ahaziah was 22 when he began to reign.
       2 Kings 8:26
Ahaziah was 42 when he began to reign.
       2 Chronicles 22:2

The men with Saul heard a voice, but they saw no one.
       Acts 9:7
The men with Saul saw a light, but they did not hear the voice.
       Acts 22:9

"Modern Christians believe that their god loves everyone, and that they are all equal. However, after Adam and Eve had eaten from the tree forbidden by god, this deity said to Eve "I will intensify the pangs of your childbearing; in pain shall you bring forth children. Yet your urge shall be for your husband, and he shall be your master." (Genesis 3:16). This tells us that, according to the Christian religion, women shall naturally be dominated by men. This kind of behavior is not conducive to a being who believes in inherent equality. Women are repeadtedly treated as objects and told to be submissive in the Bible."

Re: The Devil

[quote=picklemonkey] I need to just go buy a bible and read it cover to cover. I guess then I'll have "reason" to hate it... other than the fact that it's a story that some dudes wrote.[/quote]

yes or you might become amazed how this "story" relates to your everyday life as you read it ;)

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=Jenks][QUOTE=cowardly dj]I do what I do for those who want to know, not those who do not. You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink.[/QUOTE] You can lead a horse to a mirage, and the horse will wonder, "Where's the fucking water chief???"[/QUOTE] :lol:

but seriously, you could also lead a horse to poisoned water and they may drink from it anyways...

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]When you put the Bible next to any other religious text you will soon see the infallability of the Bible and how mans invented religions are just that........invented.[/QUOTE] I'm bothered that you would say this having not responded to my one of my points. The Christian Bible is the Jewish Bible plus additionall texts. Hence if all of the Christian Bible is true so too is the Jewish one. So where's the fallacy in that? How do you disprove Judaism?

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=picklemonkey]I need to just go buy a bible and read it cover to cover. I guess then I'll have "reason" to hate it... other than the fact that it's a story that some dudes wrote.[/QUOTE] You absolutely should...it truly is one of the greatest books ever written (and I'm not making a joke here). It's got everything: drama, action, comedy, romance, births (and damn what a long list of em it has just in the second chapter alone), deaths, self-help, authority figures, rewards and punishments...well worth a read. :Bingo:

Oh yeah and if you're confused about evolution, grab a read of the first chapter...it'll explain it clearly and concisely. ;)