Re: The Devil

They are all wrong. Seriously mate. I'm right, they're wrong, I'm tellin' ya.....

Re: The Devil

sully & ian are both right. yao = the devil ;) .

they are guides, but their claim to divination is part of what separates them from more pedestrian spirituality books. that and age, following and density. don't know the other ones much, but christianity at least claims to bridge that gap between how we live and believe, and Everything after that that we Cannot know and consequently generate extreme anxieties over. these religious works are a guide because they can allow us to live comfortably with all that uncertainty of death and morality and judgement because He'll get you into heaven, the Big Guy's got our backs, but only as long as we've got His... and (much to my chagrin) since god won't come out of the clouds and send us all on holy quests, we've got to have faith that the books are right, or else we go to hell...

Re: The Devil

[COLOR="DarkOrange"]"I hear voices over the radio....from the devil...."[/COLOR] :evil:

Re: The Devil

You're right Ian - they are distinctive and exclusive - but what I was referring to is the underlying message found in all the world's religions. It's basically the "Golden Rule" and just about every religion tackles that idea in its own way. They may use different prayers, symbols, spirits and messiahs but deep down they all involve a message of love for yourself, your neighbor (near and far), your life (here and hereafter) and your creator (insert whatever name you like).

Now where all these different religions get it wrong is in the way the ostracize and target those who see the world differently. "We are better because we follow this path". They take a very beautiful message and twist it to fit a specific motivation (usually involving politics, power and wealth). The Bible, the Torah, the Koran - in the hands of polluted minds they have all been used to defend oppression, brutal conquest, murder and hate - all in the name of God. In that respect they are quite similar.

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao][COLOR=darkorange]"I hear voices over the radio....from the devil...."[/COLOR] :evil:[/quote]

i caught you playing records backwards again, didn't i?

Re: The Devil

:RockOn: guilty.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]You say prove the Bible is real I say you prove it is not.[/quote]

CDJ, I'm not asking you to prove the Bible is the real deal, rather why the other religious texts are wrong. I should mention that not all religions believe they are the only way to God, yours does and as such I think its only fair to explain why the others are wrong. After all they can't all be right, right (based on what the Christian faiths preach)

Re: The Devil

I'll never understand how the inherent fallacy of all religions is so quickly overlooked. When someone could explain to me why it is that all these religions believe that god is all-loving, yet for some reason god has chosen one group of people over another, then I'll believe. Or why the bible and all other related books are written from a strict male perspective? Is that an all-loving god?

What makes a good honest god-believing Christian any better or worse than a good honest god-believing muslim or good honest god-believing jew or good honest god-believing buddhist or whatever you like?

If god truly is all-loving, why does it matter if this person believes in god through jesus, muhammad, moses, etc.? Aren't they all just different paths to a similar end?

And here's another little question I have, is it merely coincidence that in the "bible" that Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the first commandment is not to eat from the tree of knowledge (but you could do whatever else you like)? Seems a little self-protecting to me...

and lastly why oh why, if these religions are all truly based upon love (for fellow men or otherwise), why have they been the cause of more deaths in this world than anything else?

From my perspective, these are merely the tip of the iceberg. There are many many more hypocrisies and fallacies throughout imo.

Re: The Devil

I been out of the loop for 2 weeks , glad to see religion back on the board for discussion ( as long as it's done good naturedly) . My take on the heaven / hell thing Apparently god/allah/buddah (whateva) has promised to take his ppl out of pain suffering and servitude numerous times . He has broken these promises numerous times . He promises if you act in a certain way you will either go up or down

Here's my point .

He lied before so whats to say this isn't an empty promise too

Re: The Devil

My point is not that Christianity is BS...all religions are BS. They are a way to explain the unexplainable. It is universally believed that Norse, Roman, Greek, Native American sun and rain gods and Egyptian gods were all ways of early man rationalizing and trying to explain what was going on around them. So why should that make the Bible and the Christian, Islamic or Hindu god(s) any different?? Because they are the most popular and widely accepted??

People will follow whatever you put in front of them. For proof look at the Shakers, Heaven's Gate, People's Temple and Branch Davidians. Each of them trying to find the same thing...and each of them telling you there's is different than the others. Why are there umpteenth different versions of Christianity?? And every last one of them will tell you that there's is right and the others are wrong. And they all believe in THE SAME GOD!!! :x But no...Protestant and Lutheran are WAY different that Catholic and Baptist. Whatever...sheep.

Some people in this world need to be told what is right or wrong and how to live their lives. It's a crutch. So why not follow the one that others have been following for thousands of years. Got a question about whether something is right or wrong?? Read the Bible/Koran/whatever, it will tell you. Some of us don't need our hands held and can make our own decisions in life.

I've always loved how some people will say that sci-fi movies are stupid because they are "unrealistic" or "far-fetched." Then this same person will tell you that "god" created heaven and Earth in 7 days and all of that crap. And one day he is going to come down from the sky and take all of the people who got suckered into or were made to believe in him and whisk them all away to Heaven and leave all of us "nonbelievers" (I call us realists) here to rot. Now[B] THAT [/B]is far-fetched. :roll:

Re: The Devil

See it all comes back to the Hopi Indians of the America's.. all the other religions are a joke if you ask me.. they sound too businessey come here (church/mosque) give money and maybe you will go to heaven if you live by this book (koran/bible).. horse shit.. the Hopis's are the only ones who have a religion that makes some sense.. Read the book "the mystery of the crystal skulls'' then you will know..

Re: The Devil

Hhahaha....oh well....I guess in the end it all comes down to mutual respect if we don't understand each other.

At least I can have premarital sex :Naughty:

Re: The Devil

[quote=BSully828]

Its my feeling that those who really understand the meaning of faith do not care whether one is a christian, a jew, a muslim, buddhist, taoist, zoroastrian - because the mode of worship is not important, it is the sincerity and honesty [I]behind [/I]that worship that is the key.[/quote]

Very well put bro....

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]do I dare enter this conversation?

sure

well Satan is an angel cast our of Heaven by God. He is the "prince of the world", "the great tempter", along with other names.

One thing that people need to know about God (even if they do not beleive it is still good info) is that when he designed everything he designed it with free moral will. That means the He is not a dictator. When he made good he also made evil. If not then we would be like robots always doing what we are told with no choice in the matter.

There is a heaven and a hell. the choice is up to each person to decide if they are going to follow what God tells them. It is a very basic concept of choices vs. consequences. Just like we tell our children-- if you pick that up I will spank you, or if you do not bring home passing grades you will be grounded. We tell them of the bad to hopefully encourage the good but it is ultimately their choice. God has done the same for us.

The only reason people do not believe the Bible is because they do not want to see it, not because it is not true. Any person who studies the Bible like they studied in college (assuming they were studious) would understand the truth in it. After a while it becomes self-evident in truth.

Fact: We are here.

Fact: We were created, no scientific evidence says otherwise. I challenge anyone to show scientific evidence we came from a gelatinous blob.

Fact: All cultures look for a supreme being. If man were the pinnacle of existence then explain the religious phenomenon that has existed for as long as man has. We are all looking for the greater good we know is out there. It is by design we feel that way.

Fact: All forms of religious doctrine except Christianity have been proven false by breaking down the book/people that/who claim to be their guidance. The Bible is the only one that has stood the test of time. It has been proven true time after time after time even in the highest doubt.

Just because most people do not understand the Bible does not make it not understandable. Imagine if your math prof in trig class gave you the book and said I will be back at the end of the year and there will be a test to see if you studied. Good luck and he left. You have 2 choices 1. Pass 2. Fail There is no in-between here. You can not almost pass or almost fail. The choice is yours. At the end of the year there will only be two types of people in the class, those who studied to pass and those who did not. It will be up to each person to decide to study or not. When the teacher comes back and gives the test it will be plain and clear who studied and who did not. The Bible is the same. IF people put as much effort into learning the absolute truth of the Bible as they did to pass college then there would not be so many false doctrines out there.

The Bible is the absolute truth of everything, it is proven so through time (the ultimate test)[/quote]

well put 8)

Re: The Devil

Im a gambling man .. it's around 50/50 that religion does explain our existence . (Though no religeous books explanation of creation stands up to scrutiny) . Howeva there are 4 major religions . Choose the wrong one and ure still going to hell . There are over 200 minor religions . Choose the wrong one ure still going to hell . 1000's of sect's type religions . Choose the wrong one ure going to hell . The odds are shitty id'e rather just go for the 50/50 and live my life as i choose

Re: The Devil

[quote=Yao]One question though: why haven't you answered or referred to, at any given moment, that letter "why can't I own a Canadian?". It may look like a joke, but it's not. I want you to read it, and tell how it is that you say the Bible is your authority over everything, but you still ignore a lot of commands that are in there?[/quote]

I have looked at it many weeks ago and I already know how to show you the answer to that .

There are a great many verses I could point out to show what I am talking about but to save time I am not going to give them now. If anyone wants some direct scritputes to back up my point then ask and I will post them.

Here goes a quick and absolutely Biblically sound take on the question found in the Why cant I own a canadian thread.

Everything the the writer used was from the Old Testament. The things that were mentioned were things that God required of the Jews. Sacrifices were to take away the sins of the people. God gave explicit orders often down to how to make something to the inch. People were to follow them to the letter or it was not a good sacrifice. That is why Cain killed Abel. God liked Abels sacrifice more because Abels heart was in it. The idea was that God wanted a persons heart in the sacrifice and had nothing to do with the actual sacrifice.

Much of the Old Testament predicts the coming of Christ and describes in detail many of the things that the Jews were to look for to know that he was the Christ. A list of qualifications if you will. The Jews were always looking for the coming of Christ because he was to be the new law and to replace the Law of Moses, (the old law customs that the are mentioned if the article, the 10 Commandments) He was sent to earth with the intent to die for all mans sins past present and future. He knew that he was on earth to die. If you read Galatians you will come to an understanding. There are some mentions in Hebrews as well.

The situations with Christ is basically this. Jews were looking for Christ. Christ came and spent his entire life fullfilling prophesy after prophesy of the coming Messiah. He told of his purpose for coming to earth was to die for mans sins once for all. He was the perfect sacrifice sent by God to cleanse the world of its sins. Since Adam and Eve sinned all man has been destined to die and all have sinned since. Jesus was perfect. In him was no sin at all. He never sinned. He was subjected to every little thought that we are subjected to. He was a man on all accounts just like us. He was tempted by all the sins we are tempted by, yet did none. He died to make peace between God and man and his blood is referred to as the cleansing blood of the lamb. It is represented when you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. You are then added to the kingdom and no man can take you out, however you can chose to not follow Gods commands and remove yourself from the kingdom.

The reason we do not do any of the things mentioned in the Old Testament is because it died on the cross with Jesus. He is the new law and since his coming we follow what was given us in the New Testament.

The Old Testament was a guide (the covenant between God and Moses) to pave the way for Jesus who is the New Covenant between God and Man.

any questions

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks] Or why the bible and all other related books are written from a strict male perspective? Is that an all-loving god?[/quote]

People who say God is an all-loving God are the same people who say God will not hold me to that book he gave us if I am a good person I will go to heaven. They confuse all-loving with all-loving and blind. He is an all-loving, but he is not blind and sees all the wrong we do. Our relationship to God is described as the relationship between a parent and a child. He is our Father and we are his children. He is all loving to us as we are to our children. No matter what our child does we still love it deeply and are just as deeply hurt when they make bad choices. We punish them and love them at the same time. We hold our kids to a certain standard of behavior. God is the same. He loves everyone equally but holds us to a certain standard.

So he is all-loving and also the perfect example of parenting man has ever seen. He is all-loving but holds us to a standard. We chose to hold ourselves to it or not.

Re: The Devil

Good response CDJ - that traslated some very vague 1st century biblical termenology into modern language. But I'm still left with a few unaswered questions. First: why aren't [i]all[/i] Old Testament sins wiped clean?

[quote=cowardly dj]The reason we do not do any of the things mentioned in the Old Testament is because it died on the cross with Jesus. He is the new law and since his coming we follow what was given us in the New Testament.[/quote]

If we are to take this rational as "gospel", then shouldn't the idea of the sin of homosexuality be just as washed away as the sin of working on "the Lord's day"? The new Pope has just [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/22/vatican.gays.ap/index.html"]released a statement [/URL]stating that gays are still unwelcome in the church, apparently the center of the Catholic religion is a bit more selective then your more accepting view. I admit I am not as well versed in this Holy text as you are, if there is equivalent homophobia present in the New Testament then I willingly plead ignorance.

Secondly - and I understand that you are a lone vioce among a sea of dissention - but I would still like to hear your response to my earlier comment on time being the "ultimate test" of a true religion. I made a brief reference to a series of organized faiths that were in existance much longer than the current run of Christianity, I would like to hear your take on those as compared to your previous statement.

The floor is yours my friend.

Re: The Devil

@bsully828

homosexuality is directly spoken against on more than one occasion.

All sins are forgivable but you have to be a member of the Church of Christ, (the Kingdom, the bride of Christ and it is called many other names) established on the day of pentecost. There are very specific guidelines on how to get into that kingdom. Once you meet them you are in for life and no man can remove your name but your choices can take your name out. However here is where it starts to get sticky because some people want to be able to do what they want to do even if it is a sin and so they take certain scriptures and will make a whole new doctrine from them to meet their needs and wants. I will give a good example here. Many doctrives say that all you have to do is believe Jesus was the Son of God and you will go to Heaven if you are a good person. That is not the case. There are very strict guidlines to getting into Heaven.

Forgiveness only comes from a repentant heart. God only forgives if you are actually sorry you did wrong and when you are actually sorry about doing it you will not do it again. Not continuing in sin is the most sincere thing you do. You have to stop doing wrong to get forgivness. It is not given by a Catholic priest. He does not have the power to forgive sins. Only God does and he told us how to have our sins forgiven and nowhere in the Bible does it say to go to a priest and he can do it. . He tells us to turn away from sin. So then if a person sins and ask forgiveness but does it again and again then common sense tells us that he is only asking for forgivness with his mouth not his heart. God know the heart of all people and when you ask for forgiveness you will only get it if your truly want it and are not just saying it. That is how God looks at sin and forgivness.

Re: The Devil

[quote=BSully828]But I'm still left with a few unaswered questions. First: why aren't [I]all[/I] Old Testament sins wiped clean?[/quote]

please elaborate the question for me. I can go a few different ways with this depending on what you are seeking.

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks] Or why the bible and all other related books are written from a strict male perspective? [/quote]

1. God is a man and made man in his image and made man first.

2. God made Eve as a "helper" for Adam.

3. Eve sinned first by falling to the temptation. Her punishment and all the women after her were to follow behind man. Pain in childbirth is a direct punishment for Eve's sin for all women. Since God made the decree that woman was mans helper man naturally has the role of leader.

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks]What makes a good honest god-believing Christian any better or worse than a good honest god-believing muslim or good honest god-believing jew or good honest god-believing buddhist or whatever you like?[/quote]

You have to spend time examining each and looking for flaws. The overall content of the claimed religion. I for one do not want to be caught on the wrong side when it all ends so I spend a HUGE amount of time outside work into looking at the Bible and its claims and all the other religions and their claims. The Bible is the only one that is consisten throughtout, flawless. There are flaws in every single religion outside of the Bible and its God. There have been no proven flaws of the Bible EVER.

I can show you the flaws in any religion. Just ask.

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks]And here's another little question I have, is it merely coincidence that in the "bible" that Christians, Jews and Muslims all believe in the first commandment is not to eat from the tree of knowledge (but you could do whatever else you like)? Seems a little self-protecting to me...[/quote]

the word knowledge is often misused to mean knowledge equal to God's. That is not the case it refers to the knowledge of good and evil. To sum it up in easy terms it was a load of guilt Adam and Eve felt for doing what God asked them not to do. It had absolutely nothing to do with the fruit. It was the concept of chosing to obey or not to obey. A free choice for them and us as well.

as far as the do whatever else you like.... Adam and Eve were created sinless and designed to live forever. They were never goin to die. so to them do whatever you like did not include any sin until they ate of the tree and their eyes were opened

Re: The Devil

[quote=rubyraks]and lastly why oh why, if these religions are all truly based upon love (for fellow men or otherwise), why have they been the cause of more deaths in this world than anything else?[/quote]

religion has not spawned a single war. man has using his take on religion to do what he wanted in his greed.

there is an absolute truth to God and his word. To know this truth you have to study it in great depth. It has to be your sole existence. If you do not then you can misunderstand something about it.

This has happened time and time again and will always happen. God's word can not be blamed for man taking it and twisting it to meet his needs. Instead of looking to blame religion for the wrong, why dont we blame the person who misunderstood and misused it.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]@bsully828

homosexuality is directly spoken against on more than one occasion.[/quote]

Please provide specific passages. Again, I am a layman here in reguards to the Biblical definition.

[quote=cowardly dj]All sins are forgivable but you have to be a member of the Church of Christ, [/quote]

To repeate what Yao, myself and others have said - you can't prove your point by referring to the Bible. The arguement here is that the Bible is not the definitve word on spirituality. Again I refer you to earlier posts where you have been called upon to prove why the Bible superceeds the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Vedas, etc... etc...

[quote=cowardly dj]There are very specific guidelines on how to get into that kingdom. Once you meet them you are in for life and no man can remove your name but your choices can take your name out.[/quote]

How can a being that is beyond all human comprehension rest Its utmost power on a set of [I]human [/I]rules or guidelines? If God created the earth and the Heavens (and science has proved that the "Heavens" extends for galaxies upon galaxies) how can "He" be so completely consumed with the happenings on this tiny speck on the boondocks of the universe?

[quote=cowardly dj]However here is where it starts to get sticky because some people want to be able to do what they want to do even if it is a sin and so they take certain scriptures and will make a whole new doctrine from them to meet their needs and wants. [/quote]

Wait, you mean people take the words of the Bible (or Koran, or Torah or _____ )and warp them to meet their own agendas? Nooooo, i can't believe that :roll:

[quote=cowardly dj]Forgiveness only comes from a repentant heart. God only forgives if you are actually sorry you did wrong and when you are actually sorry about doing it you will not do it again. Not continuing in sin is the most sincere thing you do. You have to stop doing wrong to get forgivness. It is not given by a Catholic priest. He does not have the power to forgive sins. Only God does and he told us how to have our sins forgiven and nowhere in the Bible does it say to go to a priest and he can do it. . He tells us to turn away from sin. So then if a person sins and ask forgiveness but does it again and again then common sense tells us that he is only asking for forgivness with his mouth not his heart. God know the heart of all people and when you ask for forgiveness you will only get it if your truly want it and are not just saying it. That is how God looks at sin and forgivness.[/quote]

Here's the thing though - this entire paragraph is based on the premise that the God of the Bible is all there is. That is just not the case, the entire course of human history proves as much. What it comes down to (and this is where I think you and I agree) is a matter of personal choice. You believe that the Biblical God is the truth beyond truths. Great, fantasitc, you have found a story that strikes a spiritual resonance within you. I, on the other hand, do not find such an accord. Does that make my conclusion any more or less valid than yours?

No, of course not.

You have found what works for you. The facade of God that hits you most deeply does just that - hits [I]you[/I] and you alone. I have found a different path to approach that great unknown. Neither of us is 100% right or 100% wrong - no one, no [I]human[/I] can find that perfect path. The best we can hope for is what works best for us as individuals.

We are arguing the style not the substance - for we all realize the importance of that substance, that deeper meaning. It's not the mask of God that matters, but the feeling He/She/It/They strike within that is important.

Re: The Devil

@bsully828

if you get some time there is a huge amount of reading at these threads that I think you will enjoy.

[URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18976&highlight=cowardly"]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18976&highlight=cowardly[/URL]

[URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19322&highlight=cowardly"]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19322&highlight=cowardly[/URL]

[URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19569&highlight=cowardly"]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=19569&highlight=cowardly[/URL]

Lots of reading there. May take some time but it is interesting stuff. Feel free to ask any questions about anything.

Re: The Devil

Thanks for the links CDJ - Even though I didn't add my thoughts, I was pretty involved with those threads. I'm familiar with the arguments presented but, to be honest, none of those discussions have yet to answer my two most fundamental questions:

1. What makes the Bible a greater authority than any other spiritual work of art?

and

2. If time is the "ultimate test" than what do you have to say about other doctrines that lasted far beyond the current length of Christianity?

If passages within those previous threads answered those questions, then I totally missed it - my bad. If not, then please clarify for my own understanding.

But I'm sorry, but using passages or examples from the Bible do not suffice as a solid answer. That's like saying "I believe what the Bible says, because the Bible says what I believe." Show me how the word of the Judeo-Christian Lord outweighs any other deity [I][B]without[/B][/I] using its own text as proof and I'll being to see your side.

By the way -- I do not mean to present myself as a complete atheist (in case that's the impression my posts have given) but I fail to see how one train of thought is the direct path to that which is, by definition, beyond our comprehension.

Re: The Devil

bsully I by no means take them as anything other than very good questions. You have been very well spoken so far. You have the right to ask any question you can come up with. It is that way with everybody. Some people just dont know how to ask nicely. Their choice.

I will answer the questions and it goes without saying that I will answer them not by using the Bible as its answer. I see the nonsense in that. I will use the book/religion and cave it in on itself. Then along with it I will answer the same question with the Bible and you will see the clear difference and believe for yourself. The truth fears nothing. It becomes so self evident that the Bible is the only true religion that you will spend the rest of your life doing everything you can to make sure you understand it. Trust me ;)

Please keep these things very close to mind when you read the future posts on this subject.

1. All rules apply to all religions/books/people including the Bible (it is not exempt from its own rules)

2. I will declare anything false if only one thing can be found to be false. It only needs one thing wrong to be fallable.

The bible will be seen to be infallable.

I will answer the questions as I can due to this being Thanksgiving weekend. Not much for time as my house is host this year.

But I always make time to talk about religion. It is my life. Speculators say there is a 50/50 chance that religion is true or is not. I do not like those odds. I want 100% so I spend as much time as I can researching. Everything I have come up with has led me to the Bible as the only truth. Now my odds are 100% that religion is true and that the God of the Bible exists and is the only true and living God. It tells its own story.

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj]1. God is a man and made man in his image and made man first.[/quote]

More like "Man created god in [B]his[/B] image"

Re: The Devil

[quote=cowardly dj] Please keep these things very close to mind when you read the future posts on this subject.

1. All rules apply to all religions/books/people including the Bible (it is not exempt from its own rules) [/quote]

All religions/books/people [I]including[/I] the Bible? So the rules that apply to Christianity, also apply to Islam, to Taoism, to Gnosticism etc... etc... If a = b = c then aren't a, b, and c valid in their own right and acceptable as an answer unto itself? If the rules apply to all religions then it shouldn't matter in which way you follow the rules, just that they are adhered to.

I'm referring to "rules" here not in the case specific sense (i.e. one may say you can't eat meat on friday, another that women must be covered head to toe) but in that more broad "Golden Rule" sense that I mentioned earlier in this thread.

Re: The Devil

[QUOTE=cowardly dj]I have looked at it many weeks ago and I already know how to show you the answer to that .

There are a great many verses I could point out to show what I am talking about but to save time I am not going to give them now. If anyone wants some direct scritputes to back up my point then ask and I will post them.

Here goes a quick and absolutely Biblically sound take on the question found in the Why cant I own a canadian thread.

Everything the the writer used was from the Old Testament. The things that were mentioned were things that God required of the Jews. Sacrifices were to take away the sins of the people. God gave explicit orders often down to how to make something to the inch. People were to follow them to the letter or it was not a good sacrifice. That is why Cain killed Abel. God liked Abels sacrifice more because Abels heart was in it. The idea was that God wanted a persons heart in the sacrifice and had nothing to do with the actual sacrifice.

Much of the Old Testament predicts the coming of Christ and describes in detail many of the things that the Jews were to look for to know that he was the Christ. A list of qualifications if you will. The Jews were always looking for the coming of Christ because he was to be the new law and to replace the Law of Moses, (the old law customs that the are mentioned if the article, the 10 Commandments) He was sent to earth with the intent to die for all mans sins past present and future. He knew that he was on earth to die. If you read Galatians you will come to an understanding. There are some mentions in Hebrews as well.

The situations with Christ is basically this. Jews were looking for Christ. Christ came and spent his entire life fullfilling prophesy after prophesy of the coming Messiah. He told of his purpose for coming to earth was to die for mans sins once for all. He was the perfect sacrifice sent by God to cleanse the world of its sins. Since Adam and Eve sinned all man has been destined to die and all have sinned since. Jesus was perfect. In him was no sin at all. He never sinned. He was subjected to every little thought that we are subjected to. He was a man on all accounts just like us. He was tempted by all the sins we are tempted by, yet did none. He died to make peace between God and man and his blood is referred to as the cleansing blood of the lamb. It is represented when you are baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of your sins. You are then added to the kingdom and no man can take you out, however you can chose to not follow Gods commands and remove yourself from the kingdom.

The reason we do not do any of the things mentioned in the Old Testament is because it died on the cross with Jesus. He is the new law and since his coming we follow what was given us in the New Testament.

The Old Testament was a guide (the covenant between God and Moses) to pave the way for Jesus who is the New Covenant between God and Man.

any questions[/QUOTE]

Um...okay...I only needed that last paragraph to get what you were trying to tell me CDJ ;)

And yes i think the letter might be a little bit over the top, but what it still clearly demonstrates to me is the selectiveness with which fundamentalists(1) choose how they define their do's and do-nots.

As an example: last week we had a fundamentalist Muslim woman (!!!) in a show, talking to a few show hosts, and they asked the question why, if all non-muslims should be smited, they did not do so right then and there. The answer was: "That is too much of a hassle now".

Not to compare you to that woman dude, but this answer shows a certain degree of intrumentality: you do what is possible, but the other commandments which are just viable, you don't execute...in this particular case because the task at hand was too big. In other cases because it might be totally unwanted for or unacceptable in the present days.

I mean...you like progressive house, right? Do you visit clubs, or are those totally off limits for you now? A few Christian friends of mine told me it's the music of the devil, that is seduces you into doing evil stuff and that they will certainly never ever set foot in a club, since it's a kind of Sodom and Gomorrah in a nutshell...

What are your thoughts on that? [SIZE="1"] (1) unless some other people I make a clear distinction between fundamentalism, revivalism and militants.[/SIZE]

Re: The Devil

Cdj .. Christ was without sin .Hmmmm. Didn't he let some hooker give him a sensual foot wash using her hair ? ( at least Clinton did it with an intern)

Or did he allow that just for her benefit ?

And I'm with Yao on the laws thing , if the do's and do nots where created by an omnipitant being then they should not whither with time or need updating ..

Re: The Devil

Sully as far as rules goes in the term that I mentioned it is this.... all rules I will use to show you the false doctrines I will use judge the Bible as well. No favorites. I have that much confidence in the Bible that I do not care what you compare to it, from any religion, it will stand the test.

Re: The Devil

Yao, I do not club. I just enjoy the music at home. Music alone has no sin as it is just sound. It is when you start adding vocals that people's thoughts are then brought forward and it is no longer music but music with another element. Like Hydrogen and Oxygen are seperate entities until they join and then they are a new entity. Music is just sound.

Music has no sin. It is the person listening to the music's thought if it is instumental. If there are vocals it is now the thoughts of the singer/writer. Clearly two different things here.

Did I mention that music is just sound and no words and that it was not a sin?

Free the music I say, no more vocals in any genre. Lets start a movement.

Did I mention music has no sin?

Re: The Devil

[quote=BSully828]To repeate what Yao, myself and others have said - you can't prove your point by referring to the Bible. The arguement here is that the Bible is not the definitve word on spirituality. Again I refer you to earlier posts where you have been called upon to prove why the Bible superceeds the Torah, Koran, Upanishads, Vedas, etc... etc... [/quote]

I will get back with that as I am still doing some more research and gathering my thoughts.

Re: The Devil

I believe in God and i believe there is a devil , but it more an evil spirit so limited in power that it's so easy to be beaten by will . I categorize some humans as devils

Re: The Devil

tell me something that people see everyday.......kings see often.....but god and devil never?

Re: The Devil

The star of Bethlehem is most likely a fabrication, consistent with legends of the ancient world that had heavenly events portend the births of great men. In first century Palestine there was no concept of astronomy and natural law as we know it. In reality, as anyone who looks up in the nighttime sky can verify, no star high in the heavens can shine only on a particular town, let alone on a specific house as the Bible claims (Matt. 2:9-11). The Christmas star, rising in the east, moving west to Jerusalem, and then taking a little jog south to Bethlehem and finally remaining stationary, would have defied the laws of celestial motion.

Its a nice story though.........

Re: The Devil

[quote=darkabeatz]The star of Bethlehem is most likely a fabrication, consistent with legends of the ancient world that had heavenly events portend the births of great men. In first century Palestine there was no concept of astronomy and natural law as we know it. In reality, as anyone who looks up in the nighttime sky can verify, no star high in the heavens can shine only on a particular town, let alone on a specific house as the Bible claims (Matt. 2:9-11). The Christmas star, rising in the east, moving west to Jerusalem, and then taking a little jog south to Bethlehem and finally remaining stationary, would have defied the laws of celestial motion.

Its a nice story though.........[/quote]

silly you.......you are tryng to put human limits on Godly events. If God wants a star to shine on a single piece of your hair on your head he could. God did it to show them the locatoin of Jesus.

And for the record there are no Biblical references to when Jesus was born so Christmas is not the time of Jesus birth and should not be confused as a religious holiday. Christmas did not start in religion.

Re: The Devil

[quote=bart_smastard] The odds are shitty id'e rather just go for the 50/50 and live my life as i choose[/quote]

Thats what im thinking.