Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

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Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I think the poll needs a re-think i.e. I would like to see the DJ mag poll limited to people that buy the magazine i.e. you buy a particular issue and get a code inside for one vote.

I still wouldn't necessarily care who won, but the poll would be more representative & credible.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=simonr;998033]the poll would be more representative & credible.[/QUOTE]

Impossible, these days, for some people, money is more important than the quality of music or artists.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^^^ I think it's just that to 80% of the population music is only a soundtrack to what else is going on in their lives. We 20 % are privileged to be able ble to hear what we do :RockOn:

[QUOTE=simonr;998033]I think the poll needs a re-think i.e. I would like to see the DJ mag poll limited to people that buy the magazine i.e. you buy a particular issue and get a code inside for one vote.

I still wouldn't necessarily care who won, but the poll would be more representative & credible.[/QUOTE] Nah then what we we have to bitch about :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=sbando;998015]Exactly, it's just a good lol at DJ Mag, it's a ritual, who cares. Our fave dj's do care, though :).

One thing I need to say: Today's Top100 does't represent club culture anymore, faithful or joke, it's a completely different thing now. To make a comparison, Big Brother's contestants can be hugely famous, as in popular, that doesn't mean they represent anything but themselves. A top 100 poll where you have 75 unknowns, wannabes, retired has-beens, the girlfriend of this, the business partner of that, what for?[/QUOTE]

Well said. What shits me is, credit is being taken for being popular alone, yet it's a DJ poll, the skills of being a DJ; mixing, song selection, tempo control, etc. etc. is not what counts.

The core values of being a DJ is seriously forgotten in this year to year worthless poll. I don't think people really vote for the attributes of a DJ rather just a popularity contest.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I'm wondering what the size of the venues are for the top 10 on this list on average... that may play a role, and the festival scene in general does seem to be at an all time high the past couple years.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^Note that we don't actually know the real numbers, how many votes did these unknowns get? Shouldn't it be much, much more fragmented? Bar the first 15 ([URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL] at 53 is a joke, c'mon, let's stay in the real world!) + the usual suspects (the ones that year after year buy themselves a placement), the rest of the votes should evenly go to at least 200 different names, using logic and statistics!

Instead, a magazine that sells, I don't know, 15.000 copies? 10.000 hard copies each month, is able to gather 600.000 voters from around the globe. REALLY? We're taking for granted that all the votes went to Guetta, Berlusconi, Whatpeopleplay's dog and sister? It's impossible, unless it's a fraud, Florida recount style.

As for the "popularity contest" thing, that doesn't apply anymore, since half of them are barely popular, that's why I think they lost it. How this is supposed to help clubs, it's beyond me. More people thinking this horsecrap is generally representative of dance music today, who will hire [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=53"]Marco Carola[/URL] anymore, apart from Circoloco? To have their floors cleared instantly?

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=sbando;998141]^Note that we don't actually know the real numbers, how many votes did these unknowns get? Shouldn't it be much, much more fragmented? Bar the first 15 ([URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL] at 53 is a joke, c'mon, let's stay in the real world!) + the usual suspects (the ones that year after year buy themselves a placement), the rest of the votes should evenly go to at least 200 different names, using logic and statistics!

Instead, a magazine that sells, I don't know, 15.000 copies? 10.000 hard copies each month, is able to gather 600.000 voters from around the globe. REALLY? We're taking for granted that all the votes went to Guetta, Berlusconi, Whatpeopleplay's dog and sister? It's impossible, unless it's a fraud, Florida recount style.

As for the "popularity contest" thing, that doesn't apply anymore, since half of them are barely popular, that's why I think they lost it. How this is supposed to help clubs, it's beyond me. More people thinking this horsecrap is generally representative of dance music today, who will hire [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=53"]Marco Carola[/URL] anymore, apart from Circoloco? To have their floors cleared instantly?[/QUOTE]

think about what u have said then take a look @ what u do on a daily basis !!!

can i ask you, are you one of the 10,000 who buy the magazine each month ?

i dont yet each year i find out about the poll by means of the internet and by rights i have the choice of voting, what should happen here is that every person who buys the magazine should be given a unique id and allowed to vote using that id but in saying that its not really a fair look on how the world feels about who is the best dj in the world if its only dj magazines readers

every pole like this is completely flawed because i know for a start all i need to vote is have an email and an internet connection, i also know i have access to several of those, put it this way in 2005-2006 i must of voted for [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=5"]sasha[/url] about 200 times in the best essential mix poll... everything has a flaw

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I agree with you, apart for one small wtf

[QUOTE]think about what u have said then take a look @ what u do on a daily basis !!!

can i ask you, are you one of the 10,000 who buy the magazine each month ? [/QUOTE]

I won't try to find an interpretation^, I support artists by buying their tracks from Beatpork and Juno, I used to buy 20 cd's a month. I do vote every year, against any good sense. I went out of my way (as in daily tasks and chores) to support my fave DJ. But you don't support our culture by buying DJMag or Mixmag, lol. They've been putting Guetta and Lady Gaga on their covers for years now. They're to dance music what the NME is to rock music, unfortunately.

Anyway, what you say is close to my own view, actual punters, record buyers, bedroom dj's, fans should still leave a mark in any poll. [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL] is more popular than 70% of those names, hence it's FICTION now, not just a popularity contest.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=sbando;998167]I agree with you, apart for one small wtf

I won't try to find an interpretation^, I support artists by buying their tracks from Beatpork and Juno, I used to buy 20 cd's a month. I do vote every year, against any good sense. I went out of my way (as in daily tasks and chores) to support my fave DJ. But you don't support our culture by buying DJMag or Mixmag, lol. They've been putting Guetta and Lady Gaga on their covers for years now. They're to dance music what the NME is to rock music, unfortunately.

Anyway, what you say is close to my own view, actual punters, record buyers, bedroom dj's, fans should still leave a mark in any poll. [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL] is more popular than 70% of those names, hence it's FICTION now, not just a popularity contest.[/QUOTE]

thing is though m8 u have to think numbers here, the trance head is usually the younger generation with no ties so there are more of them and unfortunately more likely to vote in such a poll, the people who are into hawtin,[url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=5"]sasha[/url] and digweed etc are now the older generation who for the most part are now all married with kids etc so voting on a poll about who is their favourite dj isn't exactly high on the list of things to do in life... i don't believe its fiction if u look @ it in the way in which i do, truth is some of these dj's mentioned would be higher up in the list if everyone who was into the music was actually forced to vote but this is completely insane to think about doing... the voting history speaks for itself over the years as people just follow trends which is exactly why people are running about with iphones and other fashionable items

the basic fact is our generation has had its say many many many times over before and the way i look @ it is that its time we moved over and let the younger ones have their say just as our elders did when it was our turn to take the helm and just because "our" dj's aint so high on todays list doesn't mean to say they are less popular then they were 10-20 years ago its just that the people who rigorously follow these dj's have moved on in life and this is something we just have to accept... the newer dj's are the ones that are keeping the scene alive and of course in 5-10 years there will be a new hawtin or a new [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=5"]sasha[/url] or a new digweed, if no new talent takes the helm then the scene dies quicker than it surfaced... personally i,m getting a little sick of the same old dj's all the time, for the most of then its blatantly obvious that their "energy" died many many many moons ago and i get the feeling that most of them are just stringing it along now as a way of securing their own future... when was the last time u heard anything truly inspiring from the big 4-5 on this forum ? come on man half these guys if not pushing forty are now pushing 50 etc ... can u understand where i,m going with this ?

all u have to do is look how ur music taste has changed over ur lifetime to understand where i,m coming from

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^I agree.... If I asked every one of my friends on Facebook (and they are all industry people from the acting world), who knows [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL], very few if any would respond "yes." However if I asked: who knows "tiesto" or "guetta" well you get the idea. :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=floridaorange;998178]^I agree.... If I asked every one of my friends on Facebook (and they are all industry people from the acting world), who knows [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL], very few if any would respond "yes." However if I asked: who knows "tiesto" or "guetta" well you get the idea. :lol:[/QUOTE]

i get more yes's when i ask have u slept with florida's mum than i do when i ask do u know tiesto :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

p.s. i hold the facebook page of the tiesto fan club ;) :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=floridaorange;998178]^I agree.... If I asked every one of my friends on Facebook (and they are all industry people from the acting world), who knows [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/URL], very few if any would respond "yes." However if I asked: who knows "tiesto" or "guetta" well you get the idea. :lol:[/QUOTE] You need new friends.;) Oh wait, Facebook friends :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=DIDI;998182]You need new friends.;) Oh wait, Facebook friends :lol:[/QUOTE]

thats ur cue to join the darkside di :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

C'mon, are we really starting a big debate on the Top100? [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/url], btw, has been in the top 10 or 15 since men lived in a cave. Ask your friends who [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1136"]Dash Berlin[/url] is.

Richie Hawtin (official page) [FONT=Helvetica][B]570,750[/B][/FONT] like this

Noisecontrollers [FONT=Helvetica][B]165,082[/B][/FONT] like this

Hmmmmm....

And it's not about the first 10 anyway, I agree on that part.

But I don't think there are actually 600.000 young-heads or trance-heads out there who are eager to vote :), that was my point. Last year you had the girlfriend of one of the Poll's main supporter entering the chart. Now she's gone, Gabriel & Dresden at 11, Bob Sinclair disappearing and all sorts of clown-shit. To me it's fake and it hurts dance music by cementing the idea that only celebrities matter and nothing else and it has lost all connections to the dance culture.

As for myself, I'm not a fan of those 5-6 big MS names to begin with and I wasn't complaining :).

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=thebanned1;998184]thats ur cue to join the darkside di :lol:[/QUOTE] :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

Yeah a huge part of it is the surge of popularity of electronic music in mainstream culture with the younger generation in recent years (at least in the United States). There are a lot of people just getting into electronic who only know and therefore vote for only the more popular and well known/promoted artists (like Guetta, [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=446"]Armin Van Buuren[/URL], etc). I'm in university and I see this first hand. Whenever I hear electronic music playing at parties, around campus, etc., 9 times out of 10 it will be mainstream electronic music like [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=334"]deadmau5[/URL], Guetta, Skrillex, [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1136"]Dash Berlin[/URL]. The majority of my friends who are into EDM are into electrohouse, pop trance, and dubstep, and almost none are into other genres like progressive house, techno, psytrance, etc. They all know [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1136"]Dash Berlin[/URL] but practically none of them know [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=2"]John Digweed[/URL]. It just doesn't seem to be very popular with the majority of EDM fans in my demographic.

If you just look at facebook, there are: 24,731,493 fans of David Guetta 3,580,907 fans of Armin Van Buuren 615,834 fans of Dash Berlin

Now compare that to the more popular artists on this forum: 316,490 fans of John Digweed 249,358 fans of Carl Cox 174,227 fans of Hernan Cattaneo

To me it's no big surprise that a lot of great artists have lost position or dropped off the poll.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=sbando;998185]

[url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1"]Richie Hawtin[/url] (official page) [FONT=Helvetica][B]570,750[/B][/FONT] like this

[/QUOTE]

[B]570,740 said to themselves "fuck that i,m not voting in a trance poll " :lol:

there are a number of factors why people don't vote and why people like richie go further down the poll but like i said previously it doesn't mean that they are less popular... @ the end of the day is just a piece of paper that says your dick has either grown or shrunk.[/B]

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

It makes you wonder how many of the voters have been to a club and caught a proper DJ live.

Once you cast the voting outside of the magazine then you hit a maintsream catchment - another option would be to split the poll in two with pre-set names of 'mainstream' and 'underground'.

The RA poll should be interesting.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=Rawrmune;998246]Yeah a huge part of it is the surge of popularity of electronic music in mainstream culture with the younger generation in recent years (at least in the United States). There are a lot of people just getting into electronic who only know and therefore vote for only the more popular and well known/promoted artists (like Guetta, [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=446"]Armin Van Buuren[/URL], etc). I'm in university and I see this first hand. Whenever I hear electronic music playing at parties, around campus, etc., 9 times out of 10 it will be mainstream electronic music like [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=334"]deadmau5[/URL], Guetta, Skrillex, [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1136"]Dash Berlin[/URL]. The majority of my friends who are into EDM are into electrohouse, pop trance, and dubstep, and almost none are into other genres like progressive house, techno, psytrance, etc. They all know [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=1136"]Dash Berlin[/URL] but practically none of them know [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=2"]John Digweed[/URL]. It just doesn't seem to be very popular with the majority of EDM fans in my demographic.

If you just look at facebook, there are: 24,731,493 fans of David Guetta 3,580,907 fans of Armin Van Buuren 615,834 fans of Dash Berlin

Now compare that to the more popular artists on this forum: 316,490 fans of John Digweed 249,358 fans of Carl Cox 174,227 fans of Hernan Cattaneo

To me it's no big surprise that a lot of great artists have lost position or dropped off the poll.[/QUOTE]

exactly

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

At some point, I'm glad to see that, Hernan, not have as many fans as other artists, his music is not for everyone, you need to know it to understand it. :D thats makes it less commercial than most.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I've voted in the Tranceaddict one :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

i dunno man i just get the feeling that much of the passion that our music once had is dying slowly all the time as the guys that are pushing it are getting older and of course music tastes differ now from what they used to be, i,ve been considering looking into some trance recently to try to keep a little bit of drive for what i love going and have been enjoying much dubstep recently which is where a lot of energy seems to be thriving even though its slow down tempo stuff

its like watching an old dog die slowly recently, its really really painfull to watch, no one puts any effort into it any more dj wise etc

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=thebanned1;998405]i dunno man i just get the feeling that much of the passion that our music once had is dying slowly all the time as the guys that are pushing it are getting older and of course music tastes differ now from what they used to be, i,ve been considering looking into some trance recently to try to keep a little bit of drive for what i love going and have been enjoying much dubstep recently which is where a lot of energy seems to be thriving even though its slow down tempo stuff

its like watching an old dog die slowly recently, its really really painfull to watch, no one puts any effort into it any more dj wise etc[/QUOTE][FONT=Times]No, no, no! You have to be kidding!! Things change, but I think they are changing for the better !! :D They may not be doing much in polls but anyone who has seen them lately can tell you our old guys are doing just great. :lol: [/FONT]

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

There's plenty of fantastic music around and today we're privileged to have it for free.

The trick of the Top100 is that every thread about it turns into another thread about it :), fuck the top100, I voted in the one @ Uranus.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=thebanned1;998405]i dunno man i just get the feeling that much of the passion that our music once had is dying slowly all the time as the guys that are pushing it are getting older and of course music tastes differ now from what they used to be, i,ve been considering looking into some trance recently to try to keep a little bit of drive for what i love going and have been enjoying much dubstep recently which is where a lot of energy seems to be thriving even though its slow down tempo stuff

its like watching an old dog die slowly recently, its really really painfull to watch, no one puts any effort into it any more dj wise etc[/QUOTE]

ya went and pissed off Didi dude.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^^^ No he didn't :D It's actually having a different viewpoint. ;) I don't want his viewpoint to be sad :).

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=DIDI;998444]^^^ No he didn't :D It's actually having a different viewpoint. ;) I don't want his viewpoint to be sad :).[/QUOTE]

I guess I misinterpreted the 3 no's and 4 exclamation points :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^^^^ Yeah, guess you did, And the :D and the :lol:.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=DIDI;998458]^^^^ Yeah, guess you did, And the :D and the :lol:.[/QUOTE]

Whoops, I took those as being passive aggressive :lol: :lol: :lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

^^^ I don't do passive agressive. I do direct . I'm surprised you haven't noticed. In fact I even don't like the term passive aggressive.

Just to remind you, here's some direct for you . I like thebanned1, I was sad to see how he is feeling about the scene at the moment. I offered him another view. I think you are being mischievous to suggest anything else. And to keep on about it.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=thebanned1;998405]i dunno man i just get the feeling that much of the passion that our music once had is dying slowly all the time as the guys that are pushing it are getting older and of course music tastes differ now from what they used to be, i,ve been considering looking into some trance recently to try to keep a little bit of drive for what i love going and have been enjoying much dubstep recently which is where a lot of energy seems to be thriving even though its slow down tempo stuff

its like watching an old dog die slowly recently, its really really painfull to watch, no one puts any effort into it any more dj wise etc[/QUOTE]

I think there's tons of great music these days ... since 2006 things have been getting better and better + I'm discovering more than I ever have.

In many respects the best music is still out there in the clubs, not on the pages of DJ mag. Diggers @ fabric last week was as good a night musically as I've ever had, Hernan the week before was top notch too and [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=223"]Josh Wink[/url] @ Paramount earlier this year was another masterclass.

This tired ol' dog still likes dragging his sorry ass out once in a while.

Peace.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=DIDI;998416][FONT=Times]No, no, no! You have to be kidding!! Things change, but I think they are changing for the better !! :D They may not be doing much in polls but anyone who has seen them lately can tell you our old guys are doing just great. :lol: [/FONT][/QUOTE]

i don't agree, i,m sick and tired of listening to the old minimal sounding stuff they are all playing, for me things have been steadily getting worse since minimal because it basically showed up the music for what a lot of it actually was... don't get me wrong there is some great music out there its just no body seems to be playing it in dj sets @ the mo because it doesn't fit

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

Just today, I purchased 2 albums and 4 EP´s, digitally, on Boomkat.

In fact, I´ve never spent as much money in electronic music as I have done for the last year and a half, even when I was buying physical releases.

Techno, for example, has never been so good and strong since the end of the 90´s, as it is now.

People just have to work harder to find the good, amidst the deluge of crap, well represented in that top100.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=thebanned1;998486]i don't agree, i,m sick and tired of listening to the old minimal sounding stuff they are all playing, for me things have been steadily getting worse since minimal because it basically showed up the music for what a lot of it actually was... don't get me wrong there is some great music out there its just no body seems to be playing it in dj sets @ the mo because it doesn't fit[/QUOTE] What Simon said. :) I've heard as much great music this year as I have ever heard. I'm buying lots more tracks this year. I hate minimal , but I haven't heard any lately. thank goodness. ! Perhaps it's just the sheer volume of music that is out there. If there is more good music there has to be more bad music too I suppose.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I think there's often a big difference between the music you buy to listen to at home and the music you listen/dance to when out.

When [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=147"]Jeff Mills[/url] plays his 909 and drops it down to just the kick drum, the crowd go bananas - you can't get any more minimal than that. You wouldn't sit at home and listen to just a kick drum for long though I don't think, you'd go bananas (in a different sense)

"minimal" has become a bit of a dirty word, translating to most people as boring. I wouldn't want to listen to tracks in that style onle all night, not my cup of tea at all.

But Hernan plays minimal tracks, as does [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=5"]Sasha[/url]. If minimal means a beat and a bassline then everyone does, it's a dj tool. The difference is they don't play another after it, then another. They follow it up with a killer track. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book.

You'll remember the killer track but not so much the one before it that created the tension.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=bobjuice;998517]I think there's often a big difference between the music you buy to listen to at home and the music you listen/dance to when out.

When [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=147"]Jeff Mills[/URL] plays his 909 and drops it down to just the kick drum, the crowd go bananas - you can't get any more minimal than that. You wouldn't sit at home and listen to just a kick drum for long though I don't think, you'd go bananas (in a different sense)

"minimal" has become a bit of a dirty word, translating to most people as boring. I wouldn't want to listen to tracks in that style onle all night, not my cup of tea at all.

But Hernan plays minimal tracks, as does [URL="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=5"]Sasha[/URL]. If minimal means a beat and a bassline then everyone does, it's a dj tool. The difference is they don't play another after it, then another. They follow it up with a killer track. It's one of the oldest tricks in the book.

You'll remember the killer track but not so much the one before it that created the tension.[/QUOTE]

Great post.

I also dislike the way the word "minimal" has become a dirty word, guys like Mills and Richie (under his Plastikman name) have been doing very minimal stuff for ages. Guys like Mike Parker and [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=343"]Donato Dozzy[/url] are following those same rules today. Yet I never fail to see a dancefloor destroyed by it (I should know, I play a lot of that stuff). In 2006 and 2007, the word minimal started to be employed as a way to genderfy lack of talent for creating good tunes, plain and simple.

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

I thought this was a thread about nightmares you dream and I'm thinking damn 6 pages, ms? My contribution would've been this recurring dream of fucking up uni and freaking out about graduating :shock::roll::lol:

Re: Your worst nightmare (Top100)

[QUOTE=simonr;998482]I think there's tons of great music these days ... since 2006 things have been getting better and better + I'm discovering more than I ever have. [/QUOTE]

x2.

I actually think progressive is undergoing a new resurgence, I'm hearing melodies and vocals I never thought I'd hear again.

Also, we're talking about different 'minimal': There's the minimal stuff that Hawtin, [url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/djdb.php?id=8"]Magda[/url], Hood, et al play, and there's the 'minimal' used to describe pared down tracks that were being played by progressive DJs but I think they're only 'minimal' in the progressive context, they're certainly not 'minimal' compared to the Plastikman stuff.

And 'minimal' is not used to describe tracks that build a set before a peak.