Re: Lionel Messi

^^ Argentina´s major problem right there... It´s not easy if your coach is Maradrug :lol:

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Brazilec72;851912]Leo is already one of the best players, he is simply unbelievable. Alredy better than Cristiano Ronaldo, Ronaldinho .... and of course all the englands players ...:)[/QUOTE]

what?

[QUOTE=Miguel;852383] To even start contemplating messi as the greatest he has to bring home the world cup, with him being the major ,and I mean MAJOR contributor[/QUOTE]

2 words, george best

an individual's ability and their nation's chances of winning the world cup are not the same thing at all

Re: Lionel Messi

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4775[/ATTACH]

I care not whether their coach abuses drugs or whatever else he may do. He was a gifted footballer no doubt but as one of the most high profile cheats the world of sport has ever seen i'll always have a problem seeing him as anything but that.

A fucking cheat.

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=AchtungBaby!;859265]4 goals in two games this week... PLEASE Lio do remotelly some of this in South Africa and maybe Argentina will have a chance to win the cup...[/QUOTE]

Tenerife? Villareal? lmao, how about him not getting a sniff of the goal in TWO matches against Inter.. hope he has fun watching the UCL Final and the WC final from the comfort of his couch ;)

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;859309][ATTACH=CONFIG]4775[/ATTACH]

I care not whether their coach abuses drugs or whatever else he may do. He was a gifted footballer no doubt but as one of the most high profile cheats the world of sport has ever seen i'll always have a problem seeing him as anything but that.

[B]A fucking cheat[/B].[/QUOTE]

exactly, fat bastard him and that cnut Henry

Re: Lionel Messi

Guys... Like i said before, i hate Maradona.. But if you focus on the second goal in the same match, you´ll understand why Maradona is such a big deal.. You know what i´m talking about here.. That first goal is just to make the mith even bigger.. Nobody cares about that goal.. i can understand you do but it´s time to move on.. Not my thing anyway.. Maradona can die today and is the same for me..

And Steve your saying Tenerife? Villareal? I think you´re missing A LOT of teams.. Arsenal (4), Real Madrid and so on.. Basically he has 0,89 goals per match this season among nearly 40 games... That´s more than anybody else this year.. Ronney, Ronaldo, Ibra, Milito, Higuain...

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=AchtungBaby!;859335] if you focus on the second goal in the same match, you´ll understand why Maradona is such a big deal.. .[/QUOTE]

I understand that Juan. I know why he's such a big deal, because he was the best footballer of his generation by a mile and one of the best ever.

The second goal in that game would stand as one of the best goals ever scored if it wasn't for the fact the guy who scored it had just shit all over the spirit of the game, not to mention the ethos of sport itself. The guy fucking cheated, no-one will ever change that and his talent is forever tainted in the eyes of anyone who has ever loved football. There is also the question of whether the second goal would have happened if the first hadn't.

If you were playing in a game as big as that one and your opponent had gained an advantage in such a way i think it's fair to say you'd be a little demoralised, maybe even distracted??

in saying that though, Terry Butcher and Peter Reid would have struggled to keep up with maradona in the shape he's in now, never mind then lol

Re: Lionel Messi

Gotta say though i'll always have a soft spot for "like a prayer", especially the luvdup remix. Great tune - one of his best

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=AchtungBaby!;859335]Guys... Like i said before, i hate Maradona.. But if you focus on the second goal in the same match, you´ll understand why Maradona is such a big deal.. You know what i´m talking about here.. That first goal is just to make the mith even bigger.. Nobody cares about that goal.. i can understand you do but it´s time to move on.. Not my thing anyway.. Maradona can die today and is the same for me..

And Steve your saying Tenerife? Villareal? I think you´re missing A LOT of teams.. Arsenal (4), Real Madrid and so on.. Basically he has 0,89 goals per match this season among nearly 40 games... That´s more than anybody else this year.. Ronney, Ronaldo, Ibra, Milito, Higuain...[/QUOTE]

1. you said 4 goals in two matches, those were the two matches
2. yeah 4 goals against arsenal, is obviously good, but shows you how shit their goal keeping is and has been for years, Almunia? lol, come on
3. again, where was he in arguably his biggest matches of the season against Inter, one of which was against ten men, and Barca had over 80% possession!
4. la liga is far from the best league in Europe, even Forlan has won the gold boot a couple of times and he was shit for United.
5. we'll see how he does in the world cup

Re: Lionel Messi

The hand of God has its on merits , it was very well played ... If anything in this world pulling something like that on a world cup final in front of millions can only be done by a talented guy like Maradona . He did it and got away with it , "Fortune favours the bold" thats how I see it . To find a simple not so sophisticated word being " sneaky " is part of soccer .

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Steve Graham;859355]1) you said 4 goals in two matches, those were the two matches 2) yeah 4 goals against arsenal, is obviously good, but shows you how shit their goal keeping is and has been for years, Almunia? lol, come on 3) again, where was he in arguably his biggest matches of the season against Inter, one of which was against ten men, and Barca had over 80% possession! 4) la liga is far from the best league in Europe, even Forlan has won the gold boot a couple of times and he was shit for United. 5) we'll see how he does in the world cup[/QUOTE]

1. The point is if you choose Arsenal and Real Madrid as two teams, he made not 4 but 5 goals in the same number of games.. And those teams are better than Tenerife and Villareal...
2. I don´t follow Arsenal that often but they seems to be doing a good season this year in IMO the best league in the world.. Only Manchester and Chelsea are doing it better..
3. Most important match of the year yeah, but after all they were just a goal left to reach the finals.. That can´t be awfull.. IMO awfull was Real Madrid this champions..
4. Forlan played for Manchester in 2002... 9 years later he is waaaaay better player than he was in 2002... And like i said before, Arsenal is doing it great this year, on a better league than La Liga...
5. Agree.. It will be a serious test not only for Messi but the other great players... Rooney, Cristiano, Kaká, Iniesta...

Re: Lionel Messi

blah blah blah, lol lets see in june ;) I've never denied he's a good player, but like messi... rooney and ronaldo also have a long way to go to be lauded as one of the all time greats

and Haziel, please fuck off with that bull shit, he cheated, end of

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Steve Graham;859448] and Haziel, please fuck off with that bull shit, he cheated, end of[/QUOTE]

I would have rather had you persuaded me into a nice discussion about this but i see that you obviously never played soccer before... just go kick a ball against the wall son !

Re: Lionel Messi

i totally agree with Steve´s points here and I´m gonna pick the obvious example...

So, let´s see... C. Ronaldo scored 42 official goals on his best season so far ( 2007-2008 ), 31 of those on the EPL and another 8 in the CL. I wonder how´d Messi do against the EPL defenses and without someone like Xavi.

Then, on his 1st season at Madrid, Ronaldo already has 29 goals in 32 matches, despite a long-ish absence by injury and despite playing for a hugely over-hyped team. Now, the thing is, I´m not just gonna put that down to the fact that he is an outstanding player, but also to the fact that, let´s face it, La Liga has 2 teams (Real and Barça) and then a bunch of nobodies about 20 points behind those two, so i wouldn´t say either CR9 or Messi are playing exactly against the most solid defenses around...

In the end, I prefer Ronaldo´s style over Messi´s, but I count myself extremely lucky to be able to witness these 2 guys playing in my lifetime. I just don´t think it´s so clear that Messi is miles above everyone else.

Re: Lionel Messi

messi scored a beauty today!

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Kinetic;859470]i totally agree with Steve´s points here and I´m gonna pick the obvious example...

So, let´s see... C. Ronaldo scored 42 official goals on his best season so far ( 2007-2008 ), 31 of those on the EPL and another 8 in the CL. I wonder how´d Messi do against the EPL defenses and without someone like Xavi.

Then, on his 1st season at Madrid, Ronaldo already has 29 goals in 32 matches, despite a long-ish absence by injury and despite playing for a hugely over-hyped team. Now, the thing is, I´m not just gonna put that down to the fact that he is an outstanding player, but also to the fact that, let´s face it, La Liga has 2 teams (Real and Barça) and then a bunch of nobodies about 20 points behind those two, so i wouldn´t say either CR9 or Messi are playing exactly against the most solid defenses around...

In the end, I prefer Ronaldo´s style over Messi´s, but I count myself extremely lucky to be able to witness these 2 guys playing in my lifetime. I just don´t think it´s so clear that Messi is miles above everyone else.[/QUOTE]

agreed la liga is not the strongest league top to bottom as compared to serie a or epl it's more of a scottish prem, 2 giants and a load of crap.. you can tell this by looking at the past few years at the final 4 or so of the UCL :)

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Haziel;859464]I would have rather had you persuaded me into a nice discussion about this but i see that you obviously never played soccer before... just go kick a ball against the wall son ![/QUOTE]

lol, I played for over 20 years and handling the ball was never cool, so gain, fuck off

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Haziel;859361]The hand of God has its on merits , it was very well played ... If anything in this world pulling something like that on a world cup final in front of millions can only be done by a talented guy like Maradona . He did it and got away with it , "Fortune favours the bold" thats how I see it . To find a simple not so sophisticated word being " sneaky " is part of soccer .[/QUOTE]

so, the more talented you are, the more it's acceptable to cheat? odd logic that

my opinion is the absolute opposite - if you're the best player in the world (and an icon/hero to millions) you have even more of a duty to do the right thing. Who knows Haziel, you are a lot younger than me and maybe saw the "hand of god" goal as something to aspire to?? To me it appeared to be a desperate fucking low and made a mockery of the greatest tournament there is (f.a. cup excluded)

my football career peaked at a level we call in the u.k. "senior league" which is about as far as it goes before you get paid to play. Call me old-fashioned if you like but i've always been happier to achieve victory by fair means, anything less is a hollow victory indeed. Same goes for getting beat. I'll always be able to accept being beaten by someone better than me, it can be tougher to accept being beaten by bad luck but i'll never accept being being beaten by a cheat.

That, to me, is sport.

Re: Lionel Messi

just to get back on thread, i think messi is something fucking unreal. Against Man Utd in 2008 i have to say i was in awe. United that day defended so well i don't think they'd have conceded if the game went on for another hour but i was spellbound watching Messi - i'm struggling to think of a better individual performance at that level.

I consider him a great player (as opposed to a very good one) based purely on the fact that he can take control of a game in such a way and do the things us mere mortals only dream about.

I remember seeing Paul Gascoigne play for Newcastle @ 19yrs old and absolutely running the show (in a poor Newcastle side who went on to be relegated) - they beat my team (Forest) 2-0 and fuck, we were a top 4 side then.

If you can simply dance past players as if they're not there then you're either up against kids in the park or you're fucking good.

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Steve Graham;860284]lol, I played for over 20 years and handling the ball was never cool, so gain, fuck off[/QUOTE]

ORLY..... where did you play son ? on a ubbermoral Nun league ? :p

[IMG]http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_R0jcDRd6Nxg/RYd6mg5IwgI/AAAAAAAAAGw/mJMTPvrG2Yg/s400/soccernun.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;860303]so, the more talented you are, the more it's acceptable to cheat? odd logic that

my opinion is the absolute opposite - if you're the best player in the world (and an icon/hero to millions) you have even more of a duty to do the right thing. Who knows Haziel, you are a lot younger than me and maybe saw the "hand of god" goal as something to aspire to?? To me it appeared to be a desperate fucking low and made a mockery of the greatest tournament there is (f.a. cup excluded)

my football career peaked at a level we call in the u.k. "senior league" which is about as far as it goes before you get paid to play. Call me old-fashioned if you like but i've always been happier to achieve victory by fair means, anything less is a hollow victory indeed. Same goes for getting beat. I'll always be able to accept being beaten by someone better than me, it can be tougher to accept being beaten by bad luck but i'll never accept being being beaten by a cheat.

That, to me, is sport.[/QUOTE]

I see your point , but lets be realistic in a sport like footbal where there are many tricky events during the game , there are times where you have to take advantage of the situation ,whether you like it or not .

I see more of a complete player someone talented with a sneaky sort of malice attitude than just the talented guy next door . I would choose the first guy always becuase he will be on top of his game and will do whatever it takes to make the team win . You have to know when to fake a foul , put your hand on the shoulder of the opponent on a corner kick , let the time run its course etc. all of these things are not consider legal though they are expected and are part of the game . d My point is If you can take advantage while the referee is not looking then i consider it valid , not everyone can do it , if you do it you are putting yourself on a risk of a yellow or red card . Again the phrase "fortune favours the bold" .

Maradona as a gifted master in footbal knew how to take advantage of a situation , he did it , he scored and Argentina beat England on one of the most memorable matches in world cup history .

As you guys are reading this , I'm dancing to this song :p

[video=youtube;X8kns2Rljhs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X8kns2Rljhs[/video]

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Haziel;860315]do whatever it takes to make the team win . You have to know when to fake a foul ,[/QUOTE]

I disagree, faking a foul is cheating of the worst order. It may be a cultural thing as players from certain parts of the world have always been more prone to the diving and play acting that goes on - i dunno?

What kind of man pretends he's been hurt when he hasn't ? A 5 year old perhaps?

Your video ^ made me laugh @ 50s - they even practice falling over in training.

If an opponent of mine was rolling round on the floor as if snipered when i'd barely even made contact, i'd instantly lose any respect i might have had for them. Once back to their feet i'd let them know i think they're a cheating piece of spineless shit and ensure that i'd maximise any opportunity that presented itself to give them an excuse to roll around in pain for real.

Re: Lionel Messi

Haz, are you even from Argentina? after all this you'd better be or else you're coming across as a complete twat defending maradona, lol i understand defending his career, and the other goal he scored legally was a thing of beauty, but actually defending the hand ball is just ridiculous, but each to their own ;)

and no it wasn't a nuns league, but of course it wasn't professional either, but as Bob pointed out, the level of play doesn't matter whether it's the EPL or a pick up match in park, the laws are the same as is the passion, sometimes more so in the lower divisions

funny thing is, karma is a bitch, he may have pretty much won a world cup for his country, but now he's a fat drug addicted punch line around the globe, nice legacy... I don't like wishing ill will against a country's team in the WC, but to see him fail miserably as a manager would be great. he had better hope Messi is as good as a lot of people are saying, I haven't really followed his int'l career so this will be interesting to watch.. can't wait for JUNE!!!!

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;860380]I disagree, faking a foul is cheating of the worst order. It may be a cultural thing as players from certain parts of the world have always been more prone to the diving and play acting that goes on - i dunno?

What kind of man pretends he's been hurt when he hasn't ? A 5 year old perhaps?

Your video ^ made me laugh @ 50s - they even practice falling over in training.

If an opponent of mine was rolling round on the floor as if snipered when i'd barely even made contact, i'd instantly lose any respect i might have had for them. Once back to their feet i'd let them know i think they're a cheating piece of spineless shit and ensure that i'd maximise any opportunity that presented itself to give them an excuse to roll around in pain for real.[/QUOTE]

So , you think is wise to stand on your feet until they brake your fucking leg ... hahahah ok dude i guess culturally thats your philosophy , I respect it but i don't agree with it.

I guess here is were we come apart , I can't find the word to actually describe the way we see football , to us Southamericans there is a word called "picardia" which can be applied to our game that is a mixture of : sharpness ,sneakyness and sagacious. its our way to see soccer feel it and play it , is part of it and it doesnt specifically mean to fake a foul , hand the ball or pass the ball between the opponents legs more than that is the attitude of taking advantage of a situation when is presented to you .it is built into our society and its a our way of seeing life and soccer , you wont get it because its a cultural thing . If you disagree on it, then you disagree on our way of feeling football and life which is fine but it doesnt make you any better than us .

You might probably like the Japanese players , i remember when i was living in tokyo the national coach which was a brazilian coach would say he would go crazy over the players becuase they did not have that extra element in soccer to pull the opponents jersey , to let the time runs its course or make strategic foul , because it was embedded in the japanneese culture to "never touch persons" japanese are not touchy so for them it was very difficult to perform these type of resources , again a culturaL THING , in my way of seen it and the coach's they were good athletes but incomplete soccer players

In the end just like everything in life there is no absolute truth .... everything is relative

Re: Lionel Messi

Getting your leg broken and "faking a foul" aren't quite the same thing though are they?

Re: Lionel Messi

[IMG]http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/02/ben_johnson.jpg[/IMG]

^^ Look at this guy go. Will anyone remember him as a fine athlete? The picture tells it's own story, he beat the best sprinters in the world and easily. You can't argue with the fact he won the race - but he was simply a fucking cheat who achieved his "victory" outside of the rules and spirit of his chosen sport and will always be remembered as such

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Steve Graham;860397]Haz, are you even from Argentina? after all this you'd better be or else you're coming across as a complete twat defending maradona, lol i understand defending his career, and the other goal he scored legally was a thing of beauty, but actually defending the hand ball is just ridiculous, but each to their own ;)

and no it wasn't a nuns league, but of course it wasn't professional either, but as Bob pointed out, the level of play doesn't matter whether it's the EPL or a pick up match in park, the laws are the same as is the passion, sometimes more so in the lower divisions

funny thing is, karma is a bitch, he may have pretty much won a world cup for his country, but now he's a fat drug addicted punch line around the globe, nice legacy... I don't like wishing ill will against a country's team in the WC, but to see him fail miserably as a manager would be great. he had better hope Messi is as good as a lot of people are saying, I haven't really followed his int'l career so this will be interesting to watch.. can't wait for JUNE!!!![/QUOTE]

Do i need to be from the same country to show appreciation for a person ?? ofcourse not ,I dunno if you are from england but even so you certainly come off as a bellend for showing your hate for somebody that hasn't done anything to you. :D

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;860421]Getting your leg broken and "faking a foul" aren't quite the same thing though are they?[/QUOTE]

No but I know you get my point , if the team in front of you , has the job to tag foul a player then is it smart to wait till someone breaks your leg than to actually fall down when you see that a malintention tackle is coming your way and have the referee give them a card ?

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;860425][IMG]http://www.theage.com.au/ffximage/2004/08/02/ben_johnson.jpg[/IMG]

^^ Look at this guy go. Will anyone remember him as a fine athlete? The picture tells it's own story, he beat the best sprinters in the world and easily. You can't argue with the fact he won the race - but he was simply a fucking cheat who achieved his "victory" outside of the rules and spirit of his chosen sport and will always be remembered as such[/QUOTE]

Using our street knowledge , brains ,physical advantage is one thing and using drugs is another thing, Whoever uses drugs is just plain dumb not only because he will most likely get caught and ruin his whole career but also because you are taking advantage by secondary means . That my friend is cheating

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Haziel;860752]No but I know you get my point[/QUOTE]

Yeah i do.

And i read your words with interest. The world cup is so much more than the coming together of football teams, the coming together of cultures is what makes it what it is.

In England we tend to look longingly at other countries and wish we could produce more of a certain type of player, I guess that works both ways, people around the globe admire the English league for it's own particular qualities.

I don't know who you'll be shouting for Hazshit when it all kicks off but good luck to them. Enjoy the tournament.

If it was down to me i'd do away with the group stages and make it straight knockout. No seeding, no bullshit, draw each round out of a hat and the Champions would be the team that didn't lose a game. This formula works well in our FA cup and used to work very well in the old European cup before the ££ching ching££ of tv took over and it became the "champions" league - a shit name indeed when you can get there by finishing 4th?. Imagine that, Germany and Brazil drawing eachother in the first round - one of them has to go home, making way for who knows who??

Re: Lionel Messi

What makes the world cup so beautiful is the different ethnicities and cultures of planet earth concentrated in one event , which in my opinion is the whole point of Sports . To unite rather than break apart

Certainly Im sure the whole world admires the nobility and devotion to their team of the English player . lets put aside all the glamour boy bs , I always thought beckham was a great leader because of this last 2 qualities I just mentioned .

I always choose 4 teams my dear vagjuice , 2 big shots which in this case will be Argentina and Holland , a medium type but that will always bring a surprise as France and a medium underdog like Cameroun .

I guess you can always expect death groups , like group C damn thats a tough one. Straight knockout seems too much of a fixed tournament IMO , at least with groups there are other posibilities like if brazil finishes 3rd in their group and then they have to face an unexpected rival . that finished 1 ST on another group , you might see an advanced final but it gives that surprise element to the world cup , anyhow in the last 8 world cups always the big shots end up with in the final.

Re: Lionel Messi

english people talk about maradona's hand as jews talk about the olocaust, GET OVER IT !!! . yes you got fucked, ireland got fucked too against france, the fact that this stuff CAN happen gives a certain drama to the game that no other sport has.

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Miguel;862176]english people talk about maradona's hand as jews talk about the olocaust, GET OVER IT !!! [/QUOTE]

:roll:

er, ok

I think i am "over it" really mate but i reserve the right to not like the bloke. I guess most Jews are "over" the holocaust as best they can be but i doubt many of them have a picture of Hitler above the fireplace.

Re: Lionel Messi

is he the most hated guy in the hole island ?

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Miguel;862225]is he the most hated guy in the hole island ?[/QUOTE]

I don't think he's hated really at all, he's more a figure of ridicule

Re: Lionel Messi

but is he seen as one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) players of all time ?

Re: Lionel Messi

Not everyne in England thinks maradona is a joke or a ridicule , didnt the University of Oxford give him a honorary degree in 1995

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=Miguel;862330]but is he seen as one of the greatest (if not THE greatest) players of all time ?[/QUOTE]

He's remembered here as a very skilful footballer, a cheat and a drug user. Maybe if the drug-testing in sport was as stringent in the 80s as now, his career would have been even shorter?? I think it's fair to say most people in England would rate him in their top 20 of all time (the scots would have him number 1 - lol!) but you can't seriously tell me he's better than any of these fellas?

Bobby Moore, George Best, Gary Neville, Paul Gascoigne, Nigel Clough, John Barnes, Bob Latchford, Dixie Dean, Stan Matthews, Peter Crouch, Kenny Dalglish, Archie Gemmil, Steve Staunton, Jason McAteer, Brian Rice

[QUOTE=Haziel;862331]Not everyne in England thinks maradona is a joke or a ridicule , didnt the University of Oxford give him a honorary degree in 1995[/QUOTE]

Yeah they did but they're "over it" now

Re: Lionel Messi

orly ??? how is that so ?

Re: Lionel Messi

[QUOTE=bobjuice;862346] Bobby Moore, George Best, Gary Neville, Paul Gascoigne, Nigel Clough, John Barnes, Bob Latchford, Dixie Dean, Stan Matthews, Peter Crouch, Kenny Dalglish, Archie Gemmil, Steve Staunton, Jason McAteer, Brian Rice

[/QUOTE]

Like i said many times, i hate Maradona but.... Do you seriously think that all of those fellas can be even compared with him??? Sorry but i don´t even recong some of them... George Best, ok.. But that´s all IMO..

We´re not talking here about GOOD players.. i mean, do you think that Gascoigne was better than.. dunno.. Zidane? Rivaldo? Platini? and so on... There are hundreds of examples for good players but Maradona was one of a kind.. he took soccer to the next level..

Gary Neville? Not better player than Zanetti, Cafú, Roberto Carlos... Peter Crouch?? IMO Rooney is already waaaaay better than him..