[video=youtube;tm6stjPCDU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6stjPCDU8"][video=youtube;tm6stjPCDU8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tm6stjPCDU8[/video][/video]

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/10196585.stm[/url]

[QUOTE] Live coverage of events, after Israeli commandos storm a convoy of boats carrying aid to Gaza, showing latest developments with breaking news and comment from BBC correspondents. All times BST.

1135: French President Nicolas Sarkozy accuses Israel of a "disproportionate use of force".

1131: UN Secretary General Ban Ki-moon says he is "shocked by reports of killings and injuries" on the flotilla and says it is vital that Israel carries out a full investigation.

1129: Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu is to cut short an official trip to Canada and Washington, Israeli radio reports.

1125: Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is to cut short an official trip to Latin America to deal with the political fallout of the Israeli action. Turkey says it is recalling its ambassador from Tel Aviv.

1122: The BBC's Natalia Antelava in Beirut says many people have taken to streets in Beirut and are protesting in front of the United Nations building.

1115: Ambassadors from European Union's 27 member states are to hold emergency talks in Brussels on the Israeli operation.

1105: The BBC's Tim Franks in Jerusalem says: More details are emerging about the Israeli version of what happened on the boat. Yochanan Plessner, member of the Israeli parliament and former navy commando himself, says that the moment Israeli commandos boarded the boat they were attacked by spikes, metal rods, and live ammunition. He said: "They were actually thrown down the different levels of the ship. Basically the Israeli soldiers who came for policing type activity were lynched."

1058: Turkey's foreign ministry calls for an emergency meeting of the United Nations Security Council over Israel's military operation.

1056: Frank Barat of the Russell Tribunal for Palestine tells the BBC he has several friends onboard ships in the flotilla and is concerned for their welfare. Briton Sarah Colborne, the director of the Palestine Solidarity campaign in London was last heard from at 2300 on Sunday, speaking live via a webcast from the Turkish ship that was intercepted. Mr Barat says another friend, Ewa Jasiewicz, who is part of the Free Gaza movement, was on board one of the smaller ships.

1055: Nabil Amr, an adviser to Palestinian president Mahmoud Abbas, condemns Israel's actions: "The Palestinian Authority cannot let what happened go unnoticed. "What happened is merely an international cry that does not carry any aggression or a violation of any borders; it is only a strong humanitarian call addressed to the world to end this unjust siege against our people in the Gaza Strip," he tells broadcaster al-Jazeera.

1052: Wallander author Henning Mankell is among those believed to be on board the ships to Gaza.

1045: Israel's Channel 10 TV says 19 activists were killed and 26 wounded.

1030: The BBC's Malcolm Brabant in Athens says: Greece has withdrawn from joint military exercises with Israel in protest at the attack on the Gaza flotilla. Athens has also barred the head of the Israeli airforce from flying to Greece. The Greeks have long had warm relations with the Palestinians and are furious with the Israelis for carrying out this raid in international waters. The Israeli ambassador to Athens was called into the foreign ministry to provide an explanation. The deputy foreign minister, Dhimitris Droutsas, demanded assurances about the wellbeing of 30 Greeks who were on board ships in the flotilla. Mr Yahya was told in no uncertain terms that Greece held Israel responsible for their safety. One of the vessels currently being escorted by the Israelis towards the port of Ashdod is sailing under a Greek flag.

1012: French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner says he is "deeply shocked" by the Israeli action and calls for an inquiry.

1010: The first of the six ships in the flotilla dock in Ashdod, Israel.

1009: Thousands of Turkish protesters march in Istanbul to denounce Israel.

0945: Turkish foreign ministry warns Israel of irreparable damage to bilateral ties. "This deplorable incident, which took place in open seas and constitutes a fragrant breach of international law, may lead to irreparable consequences in our bilateral relations," a statement read.

0930: The Arab League calls an emergency meeting on 1 June to discuss Israel's "terrorist act" against the flotilla.

0925: Sweden summons the Israeli ambassador to Stockholm over the "unacceptable" action.

0910: The Israeli Deputy Foreign Minister, Daniel Ayalon, blamed the organisers for the violence, saying they were linked to terrorist organisations. "The armada of hate and violence in support of Hamas terror organisation was a premeditated and outrageous provocation. "The organisers are well known for their ties with global Jihad, al-Qaeda and Hamas. They have a history of arms smuggling and deadly terror. "On board the ship we found weapons prepared in advance and used against our forces. The organisers intent was violent, their method was violent and the results were unfortunately violent. Israel regrets any loss of life and did everything to avoid this outcome."

0900: The BBC's Tim Franks in Jerusalem says: After the funerals and after the rage Israel will face two big questions: if, as Israeli officials insist, they are happy to channel all this aid into Gaza via Israeli ports - including the building materials which it claims Hamas could put to military ends - then what's the point of the blockade? And how far can it continue to stick to the line that "there are no shortages in Gaza", when the United Nations, among others, describes the humanitarian situation as "grim" and "deteriorating"?

0845: Audrey Bomse of the Free Gaza movement, which organised the convoy, tells the BBC: "I can tell you that there were no firearms - all the boats were carefully inspected by the government before they left the port of departure. "You can't hide a firearm; I suppose you can hide a knife, but there's no evidence there was shooting, there was live streaming coming from the boats. "You don't see any fire going past the Israelis, you see them coming out of helicopters and shooting immediately."

0830: The BBC's Wyre Davies in Ashdod, Israel, says: An Israeli army spokesman said the activists refused an order not to go to Gaza with their boats laden with humanitarian aid and instead dock at the Israeli port of Ashdod. The army says its troops were attacked by the activists with axes, knives and firearms. At least four Israeli marines were injured, said a spokeswoman, including one who was shot when his gun was snatched by an activist. There's now a state of alert across Israel.

0812: Israeli spokesman Mark Regev speaks to the BBC's Today programme:

0800: The BBC's Jon Donnison in Gaza City says: Israel had warned it was going to use limited force to stop the flotilla. It seems to have used more than that. Television pictures from on board the ships show Israeli armed commandos storming the boats. You can hear what sounds like gun shots and a number of people can be seen lying on the deck, apparently injured. It took place around 60km out to sea in international waters. An Israeli government minister expressed regret for any loss of life. Israel has said it will tow the ships to Ashdod where a special passport and detention centre has been set up. It says from there the activists will be deported.

0745: Hamas leader Ismail Haniya says of the activists: "You were heroes, whether you reached [Gaza] or not."

0730: The BBC's Jonathan Head in Istanbul, Turkey, says: Within hours of the first clashes between Israeli forces and the Gaza bound convoy the Turkish government issued a strongly-worded condemnation of the Israeli actions. Once again Israel has shown that it ignores human rights and peaceful initiatives, read the statement from the foreign ministry. It accused Israel of violating international law by using such force on the high seas, and said its actions could have irrevocable consequences for relations with Turkey. The main organiser of the convoy is a Turkish-based Islamic charity and most of the activists on board are Turkish citizens. If the reports of large numbers of casualties are confirmed, relations between Turkey and Israel, already badly strained over the blockade of Gaza, will plunge to a new low. [/QUOTE]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Murdering unarmed civilians, shamelessly for the whole world to see, sound familiar?

israeli leaders and their "supporters" will be the cause of israels inevitable downfall.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

What a tragedy that is!

[QUOTE] According to Israel's private channel 10 television, Israeli marine commandos had opened fire after being attacked with axes and knives by a number of the passengers on board the aid ships, the television said, without giving the source of its information. [/QUOTE]

Wtf? Even if they were attacked with knives and axes, does that justify such a reaction?

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=ace_dl;865383]What a tragedy that is!

Wtf? Even if they were attacked with knives and axes, does that justify such a reaction?[/QUOTE]

[video=youtube;pHXzeFJxJgw]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHXzeFJxJgw&feature=player_embedded[/video] i don't know. you tell me. I suppose you would have preferred this had been axes vs. unarmed combat?

What bothers me most about this is that of the six boat flotilla, FIVE out of the six vessels did [I]not[/I] respond violently to the Israeli soldiers, there were ZERO casualties/injuries on those vessels.

How come that only the ship which attacked soldiers suffered casualties?

The mission of this flotilla was successful. They rejected the offer for peaceful passage of the aid over land because it would help the palestinians without controversy. And controversy is precisely what the aid convoy wanted. And they got it.

[IMG]http://www.threadbombing.com/data/media/2/THISGONBGUD.gif[/IMG]

edit:

LOL @ 'the world' condemning israel. it would have condemned israel if it had basically touched any part of the aid package at any point in time for any reason at all.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

From the world that brought you "Jenin The Massacre" and the "Al-Dura Affair" now comes in full color, "Gaza Flotilla, The Massacre"; coming to your MSM as we speak.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[video=youtube;eB_CKL5h2_8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8[/video]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

I admit, I was quick to condemn Israel for this action, but now I can't say the IDF wasn't justified after seeing this.... unarmed civilians my ass:

[video=youtube;gYjkLUcbJWo]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo&feature=player_embedded[/video]

This wasn't about "humanitarian aid", it was a political move to put Israel in a crack, and it worked. If this was a "peaceful" flotilla with nothing to hide, they would have had no problem with being boarded and inspected, or better yet, if they would have went to port as instructed, this would have never happened.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

^^^ It's both , it is humanitarian aid and it is political. This needs to be brought to the eyes of the world. For me this all gets back to what the hell gives Israel any right to board any ship!!

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

How did we get here?

Occupation, don't say it too loudly.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=Kiff;865603]I admit, I was quick to condemn Israel for this action, but now I can't say the IDF wasn't justified after seeing this.... unarmed civilians my ass:[/QUOTE]

Those on board the ship had everyright to attack those "idf" crackpots. What sort of response did you expect?

A welcome mat, perhaps even roses?

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=DIDI;865623]^^^ It's both , it is humanitarian aid and it is political. This needs to be brought to the eyes of the world. For me this all gets back to what the hell gives Israel any right to board any ship!![/QUOTE]

Such a stupid question which would have been cleared up straight away with a little search on google.

[COLOR=#000000] [COLOR=White]San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (12 June 1994)[/COLOR][/COLOR][INDENT][COLOR=White]“It is permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “[I][B]are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.[/B][/I]”[/COLOR] [/INDENT]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

It is also very legal to defend yourself from cowards such as the "idf" from boarding your ship.

The "idf" are experts at killing unarmed men, woman and children. They've been doing it for years.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=davetlv;865630]Such a stupid question which would have been cleared up straight away with a little search on google.

[COLOR=#000000] [COLOR=White]San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea (12 June 1994)[/COLOR][/COLOR][INDENT][COLOR=White]“It is permissible under rule 67(a) to attack neutral vessels on the high seas when the vessels “[I][B]are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture.[/B][/I]”[/COLOR] [/INDENT][/QUOTE] Well that's the excuse anyway. !! I am so sick of seeing smarmy men making pathetic, transparently false, statements. Defending themselves!! Give us a fucking break!! The weapons were bars and chairs, against men defending from helicopters armed with sub machines.

We in Australia have this absurd situation where two of our journalists , firstly were not acknowledged as being journalists despite being acclaimed worldwide as such, abducted off international waters, taken into detention and are apparently charged with illegally entering the country. ??? How fucking stupid is that ??? I'm watching Barak at the moment . What a fucking joke. !!

Btw You just added credibility to a comment I made about you in a previous post.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=DIDI;865647]Well that's the excuse anyway. !! I am so sick of seeing smarmy men making pathetic, transparently false, statements. Defending themselves!! Give us a fucking break!! The weapons were bars and chairs, against men defending from helicopters armed with sub machines.

We in Australia have this absurd situation where two of our journalists , firstly were not acknowledged as being journalists despite being acclaimed worldwide as such, abducted off international waters, taken into detention and are apparently charged with illegally entering the country. ??? How fucking stupid is that ??? I'm watching Barak at the moment . What a fucking joke. !!

Btw You just added credibility to a comment I made about you in a previous post.[/QUOTE]

Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos, and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns.

But I guess you're not interested in facts are you. Yes we all know it was a stupid attempt by the Israelis, and yes anyone with a working brain cell could hvae told them that some elements of people on board, and i believe it to be only some, were preparing themselves for a fight, so different tactics might have been considered, but seriously DIDI do you have to resort to either personal attacks or lies in this discussion.

I know the are some people on this board who will always jump at attacking Israel and thats fair enough but do you and others here really have to fabricate things as well?

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=davetlv;865727]Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

[U]According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos[/U], and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns[/QUOTE]

Seems Amnesty International don't share your view on the legality of the blockade. You guys use paint ball guns at peaceful protests:what

][video=youtube;eB_CKL5h2_8]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eB_CKL5h2_8[/video]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=chunky;865745]Seems Amnesty International don't share your view on the legality of the blockade. You guys use paint ball guns at peaceful protests:what [/QUOTE]

Just to be clear here, when you say Amnesty doesnt share your view, do you mean mine or my country's?

Yes paint ball guns, or would you prefer real live ammunition gets used. Israel also has developed something called Skunk for demos. This is a highly smelly water canon which makes those hit by it stink for weeks - less lethal that live ammunition.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=davetlv;865755] Yes paint ball guns, or would you prefer real live ammunition gets used. Israel also has developed something called Skunk for demos. This is a highly smelly water canon which makes those hit by it stink for weeks - less lethal that live ammunition.[/QUOTE]

A peacefull protest isnt a peasefull protest if you have to shoot people with paint balls and hose them down. I was atually refuring to Isreal not you personaly. Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=chunky;865758]A peacefull protest isnt a peasefull protest if you have to shoot people with paint balls and hose them down. I was atually refuring to Isreal not you personaly. Sorry for the confusion.[/QUOTE]

Not sure where you are from Chunky but I've viewed images from various demos around the globe where police and military are armed to the hilt with live ammunition, this is not the case in Israel. Whilst I am sure there are those who would decry Israel even using non lethal weapons at demos the other alternative is something I can never support.

I am putting together some stuff which I hope might balance out somewhat the perception that the organisers of this flotilla wanted anything but a peaceful journey - I'm sure those with open minds will review ALL information out there before digging their heals in.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

They used paintball guns at the outset? Clear to me they never intended to engage in any gunfire at all - in fact, they tried to avoid it from what it looks like. Good to know useful idiots are proclaiming they intended to kill everyone aboard.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

1. Was the intention of this flotilla to bring in aid to Gaza or to attack Israel?

Considering that with 6 ships in the flotilla they only managed to transport some 10,000 tonnes of aid (approx two thirds of the amount that is transported into Gaza weekly by the Israelis) I'm of the belief that the organisers of this flotilla (Turkish 'charity' IHH - more on them later) were seeking nothing more than confrontation - especially when one takes into account the offers to dock in Ashdod and transport the goods from there were rejected a number of times by the organisers.

Even prior to leaving Turkey some might have suspected that their intentions were not pure. Here is some video footage of some members of the group just before they left Turkey.

[video=youtube;b3L7OV414Kk]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3L7OV414Kk[/video]

The footage is from Al-Jazeera - note the chant "[Remember] Khaibar, Khaibar, oh Jews! The army of Muhammad will return!" this refers to the name of a Jewish village which was defeated by Mohamed in 628 killing many and bringing an end to a Jewish presence in Arabia.

Note also the woman at the end who claims the goals of the flotilla were "one of two happy endings: either Martyrdom or reaching Gaza."

So taking the video evidence at hand from Al-Jazeera and what we know took place the other morning one must question whether ALL participants were peaceful protesters.

Should anyone feel that the translation of the video is not quite right please feel free to offer another translation.

2. Was the flotilla on a humanitarian mission?

Had this been a truly humanitarian mission then the organisers would have accepted the request by the family of Gilad Shalit, who has been held by Hamas in Gaza without access to the Red Cross and in breach of all regulations regarding prisoners of war, to request of Hamas that allow access to Gilad by said agencies. The [URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3895077,00.html"]organisers refused[/URL] - had they accepted however they would have found a huge amount of support by Israelis.

3, Who organised the flotilla.

This time the organisers seem to be a 'charity' called IHH. They have been deemed by a number of countries to be nothing more than Jihadist group. The Danish Institute for International Studies has plenty to say about [URL="http://www.diis.dk/graphics/Publications/WP2006/DIIS%20WP%202006-7.web.pdf"]IHH [/URL]- click on link to read report, IHH stuff from page 10.

These are some of my initial thoughts and stuff I have found out since this happened. Let me make it perfectly clear I do not believe that EVERYONE aboard the ships were looking for a fight with Israel, but I do think a vocal armed minority were.

My understanding is that all the commotion happened on just one ship.

I have to run out for a while but will post more a bit later.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

I just heard on the news that aboard the Turkish ship there might be secret agents with axes and knives ... Not sure if this has been confirmed yet. (Wtf they were thinking anyway ... Putting in jeopardy the whole mission?) On the other hand, i believe the rest of the ships' intentions was to provide Humanitarian Aid

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

israel's official statement on their government's website: [url]http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm[/url]

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=ace_dl;865798]I just heard on the news that aboard the Turkish ship there might be secret agents with axes and knives ... Not sure if this has been confirmed yet. (Wtf they were thinking anyway ... Putting in jeopardy the whole mission?) On the other hand, i believe the rest of the ships' intentions was to provide Humanitarian Aid[/QUOTE]

The amount of aid on all six ships combined amounts to 1/4th the aid that goes to gaza via israel every single day.

(btw, the aid package did go through to gaza sometime midday gmt).

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=88Mariner;865819]The amount of aid on all six ships combined amounts to 1/4th the aid that goes to gaza via israel every single day. ... [/QUOTE]

What is that supposed to mean? That they shouldn't go in the first place?

Israel's military have already acknowledged big mistakes on yesterday's operation

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=ace_dl;865827]What is that supposed to mean? That they shouldn't go in the first place?

Israel's military have already acknowledged big mistakes on yesterday's operation[/QUOTE]

it means that 1) this was a sham humanitarian mission that was designed to provoke israel from its very inception, 2) aid is going to gaza every day and that amount far surpasses anything that could have been done through slow-moving ships, 3) the israeli's promised (and in fact kept the promise) to transport the aid on the ships through the traditional route on land whereas five of the ships agreed to this while the sixth one tried to run the blockade (as it had, so it seems, intended to do from the outset).

The big mistake is that they didn't use more effective crowd-dispersing methods (of course, had the used tear gas, almost every news agency on this planet would have blamed them for using chemical weapons against peaceful 'humanitarians'. The only time any violence occurred was on a ship that didn't acquiesce to the inspection of cargo (not an unreasonable request, nor one that is novel in context).

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=davetlv;865727]Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos, and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns.

But I guess you're not interested in facts are you. Yes we all know it was a stupid attempt by the Israelis, and yes anyone with a working brain cell could hvae told them that some elements of people on board, and i believe it to be only some, were preparing themselves for a fight, so different tactics might have been considered, but seriously DIDI do you have to resort to either personal attacks or lies in this discussion.

I know the are some people on this board who will always jump at attacking Israel and thats fair enough but do you and others here really have to fabricate things as well?[/QUOTE]

twat

to quote your goodself

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=bobjuice;865854]twat

to quote your goodself[/QUOTE]

Way to go on original thought there.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=davetlv;865727]Right so now that I have quoted international law with you you change track to firstly attacking me and then posting lies. I dont know what access you have to news where you are but northing I have read or heard has the Israelis dropping down from helicopters armed with sub-machine guns. Maybe you have more recent news, so a link to that would be grand, otherwise its just a lie, isn't it.

According to reports Israelis landed on the main boat armed with nothing more that paint ball guns, something they use when peaceful protests are expected during anti-fence demos, and holstered hand guns - not sub machine guns. Considering that every time a member of this supposed humainitarian group spoke prior to the 'mission' leaving dock these people claimed to be prepared to peacefully block the israelis, they sprouted that under no circumstance would they use force, therefore the Israelis were not sporting sub or other types of machine guns.

But I guess you're not interested in facts are you. Yes we all know it was a stupid attempt by the Israelis, and yes anyone with a working brain cell could hvae told them that some elements of people on board, and I believe it to be only some, were preparing themselves for a fight, so different tactics might have been considered, but seriously DIDI do you have to resort to either personal attacks or lies in this discussion.

I know the are some people on this board who will always jump at attacking Israel and thats fair enough but do you and others here really have to fabricate things as well?[/QUOTE] You don't have access to television . ???? The helicopter was all over ours. As were the soldiers with guns that killed people !! Machine guns were definitely reported here. Oh, I see you put two statements together so if there is doubt about one it negates the other. Very good !!

I don't have to lie. You, I call as I see. I make no apologies for that. If you see what I have said as personally attacking you, rather than as commentary, that probably says more about your attitudes than mine. Or is that deflection ;(

Shame you didn't touch on the other issues I brought up. Apparently they want our journos to sign a paper that says they entered Israel illegally ??

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=xellsys;865811]israel's official statement on their government's website: [url]http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Government/Communiques/2010/Israel_Navy_warns_flotilla_31-May-2010.htm[/url][/QUOTE] That makes them look even worse ! The weapons , they relied on being able to take guns from Israelis ?? The pile of supposed weapons were knives and the type of thing you would find on any ship. I have those knives in my kitchen !!. I saw one that could possibly be described as a weapon only ! This I one of the reasons I am so angry , we are being treated like idiots , expected to swallow this hook line and sinker.

The one thing that seems to have gotten lost here in the argument about semantics is that people died from very real bullets and many, many more were injured.

There is no doubt that this was a political gesture to show Israel in it's true light and that people were prepared to lose their lives , and some did , to do this .

Very sadly, it succeeded in it's aim spectacularly .

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=DIDI;865868]That makes them look even worse ! The weapons , they relied on being able to take guns from Israelis ?? The pile of supposed weapons were knives and the type of thing you would find on any ship. I have those knives in my kitchen !!. I saw one that could possibly be described as a weapon only ! This I one of the reasons I am so angry , we are being treated like idiots , expected to swallow this hook line and sinker.

The one thing that seems to have gotten lost here in the argument about semantics is that people died from very real bullets and many, many more were injured.

There is no doubt that this was a political gesture to show Israel in it's true light and that people were prepared to lose their lives , and some did , to do this .

Very sadly, it succeeded in it's aim spectacularly .[/QUOTE]

You are being treated like idiots. Useful idiots.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=88Mariner;865872]You are being treated like idiots. Useful idiots.[/QUOTE] Yeah, I heard that as well , took it more as a confession than an accusation .

Love the blood covered poultry snips !

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

yes. blood covered..poultry snips. or something.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Write up by Gideon Levy

[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417[/URL]

[I]And what have we instead? A country that is quickly becoming completely isolated. This is a place that turns away intellectuals, shoots peace activists, cuts off Gaza and now finds itself in an international blockade. Once more yesterday it seemed, and not for the first time, that Israel is increasingly breaking away from the mother ship, and losing touch with the world - which does not accept its actions and does not understand its motives. [/I]

What to do, what to do?

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=dig72;865880]Write up by Gideon Levy

[URL]http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/operation-mini-cast-lead-1.293417[/URL]

[I]And what have we instead? A country that is quickly becoming completely isolated. This is a place that turns away intellectuals, shoots peace activists, cuts off Gaza and now finds itself in an international blockade. Once more yesterday it seemed, and not for the first time, that Israel is increasingly breaking away from the mother ship, and losing touch with the world - which does not accept its actions and does not understand its motives. [/I]

What to do, what to do?[/QUOTE]

This was provocation for propoganda.

Either israel has a right to exercise security on its territory or it doesn't

Either Israel responds to the flotilla or it doesn't.

Either it permits them to port on their shores to allow the aid go through inspection (like every other country does) for sending it to its' final destination, or it doesn't.

It either lets' the ships through the blockade or it doesn't.

IT either makes attempts to stop them for inspection or it doesn't.

It either boards the ships, or it doesn't.

It either boards ships with the intent to refrain from any violence, or it doesn't.

It either is met with peaceful ship custodians who will willingly let them inspect the cargo or it doesn't

Either the boarding team reacts to the violence it meets or it doesn't.

Either the boarding team submit to being killed or it doesn't.

What to do, what to do, you ask?

The world insists that all ships pass uninspected to gaza. The world insists that hamas gain armaments to launch into israel to kill its citizens and visitors. The world insists that a country who permits christians jews and arabs to peacefully exist in close proximity to each other submit to a group of people who willingly intend to exterminate one of those groups.

It's not a difficult conclusion to make for the question of 'what to do?'

Btw, if anyone is wondering: Erdogan will get the islamic vote. That's for sure. Oh, you were wondering why Turkey wanted to get involved in this mess?

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=88Mariner;865882]It's not a difficult conclusion to make for the question of 'what to do?' [/QUOTE]

What do you do about the occupation and inhumane treatment dished out to the Palestinians?

This is why we are here.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=dig72;865886]What do you do about the occupation and inhumane treatment dished out to the Palestinians?

This is why we are here.[/QUOTE]

Oh, well, we just let them all back into israel and let an incredibly devastating shit storm commence. Maybe we could have a hamas district? How bout that! Nobody will die. Everything will be peace, harmony and doves flying out towards the sunset.

Or, you could, you know, bitch at Egypt for being oppressive bastards for not doing anything more? But, see, Egypt doesn't have jews.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

You make some interesting suggestions and yet the fact still remains. The occupation and all things bad that come with it are the very reason why we are here today, hence my 'What to do?'

We can sit here carrying on about 'The Flotilla Incedent' all day long, but all in all, she is part of the same problem. Occupation.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

^^ There will still be a problem if they let them have their own state. Its easier said than done dig72... I'd like to see you on the shoes of the solders, go to a boat with people that hate you and theres also a planned attack? are you going to respond with the same force? come on...

Lucky you dont have any crazy ass neighboors.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

Well there is not much more to debate about the Flotilla Incident. The flotilla incident is not part of the view that despite screwing themselves over and over again, an amalgamation of groups aptly named 'palestinians' have some claim of right to land won through a non-aggressive group.

Of course, your proposed method is to arm a group of vigilant (and might I add, determined) anti-democratic fighters with weapons to start a war they cannot possibly win.

In the mean time, let me put something to rest. There was never a country called Palestine. NEVER. That land belonged to the Ottoman empire, then to Britain. 2/3rds of British Palestine was given to Jordan and Jews were barred from living there - the West Bank was then offered to a Palestinian state by a UN mandate, and the Arab countries refused this and sought to attack the Jewish state. Jordan, which already had 2/3rds of the land took the West Bank. In 1967 Israel took the West Bank from Jordan and Egypt. When JORDAN and EGYPT controlled the West Bank there was NEVER an outcry for a country called Palestine....not until Israel won a war prompted by the Jordanians and Egyptians. The Egyptians and Jordanians (and pretty much the rest of the world) don't give a flying fuck about Palestinians, except when the can be used as tools to further the destruction of not just a democracy in the Middle East, but the termination of a group of people (jews) as well. Who was bitching about Black September when the Jordanians terminated an easy thousand + Palestinians? Who was bitching when they continued to kill them? If the surrounding Arab countries truly cared about the Palestinians, they would have integrated them into their countries. But they don't because they don't want them. They're best served as I've mentioned above as the poster child for anti-semitism.

There could have been a Palestinian state 55 years ago. But the Arabs didn't want it. Hell, Jordan and Egypt could have given the Palestinians a state back in 1967/8, but they were more concerned with killing Jews. And so you demand to give back to a group of people who have acted violently hostile to that nation a plot of land or otherwise let them watlz into it thinking nothing will happen.

Re: Israeli raid on Gaza flotilla

[QUOTE=ganjamo;865896]^^ There will still be a problem if they let them have their own state. Its easier said than done dig72... [/QUOTE]

No one said it would be easy, but creating a "nation" at the expense of others who were already living there was going to create a huge mess no?

Well the mess is still here in 2010 and isn't going away anytime too soon.

So what do we do? Continue on with the same shit the doesn't work or do we try something different?

[QUOTE]I'd like to see you on the shoes of the solders, go to a boat with people that hate you and theres also a planned attack? are you going to respond with the same force? come on...[/QUOTE]

It's not about me and besides "soldiers" do as they are told and it is the leaders and the backers who I hold responsible for these disastrous actions.

[QUOTE]Lucky you dont have any crazy ass neighboors.[/QUOTE]

Yeah agreed, I really do feel sorry for Lebanon. Who the hell would want israel as their neighbour?