I was only drawing the line for myself. Which is why I specifically said 2 men, and not just gays in general. Personally, I don't see a bi-man committing to a women and having that relationship last. Like I said though, its probably just my experience but people that are that sexually active, stay that way through out their lives. So any relationship will be open like swingers, or the like. But that is really beside any of the points I was trying to make.

Personally, I've never known any bi men that weren't just gay. IMO, any guy that would do another guy and enjoy it throughly is gay. They may like women too, sure, women are obviously much more beautiful and attractive then a man, even for some gay men. Thats why women being attracted to women is so much more natural to me. And common. A girl kissing a girl isn't disgusting to anyone, even the most conservative girls I know don't really have a problem with it. Its like comparing apples to oranges, but that is just me.

[quote]Actually, I did catch that as to the second point. I don't find there to be anything about a gay person as compared to a straight person that makes them less loving, nuturing, able to provide guidance and teaching, etc., or anything else that is involved in the parenting process.

I am cognizant of the problems that children may experience as it relates to other kids and having to put up with some teasing or worse. I had thought that it would be better now than in years past, but that evidently isn't the case, per a post by thesightless earlier today, which is unfortunate. Candidly, that's probably the most valid reason I've heard for being apprehensive of allowing gay families to adopt. With that said:

1. It is not as if kids with two straight parents are immune from catching hell from other kids for any of a host of reasons. Kids are cruel, and will latch onto whatever they can to tease one another.

2. There have been a lot of unpleasant bridges that we've had to cross through our nation's history, and yet we have done so and are a stronger nation because of it. What if we were still sending our kids to segregated schools because we were afraid that kids were not going to accept one another back in the 60's? It takes time, of course, but it is something that has to happen to move forward[/quote]

You're getting the two(segregation & gay marriage) completely mixed up. At the time, of course, blacks weren't allowed to do certain things, I will give you that. I agree that blacks were treated unfairly, BUT, that is wholly different than letting gay people marry, for the fact that gay marriage rights do not exist at this time, in contrast to the 50's and 60's, when blacks were allowed by law to attend the same school as whites, they were just intimidated.

Also, my view-point is not set at parallels with that of thesightless'. He is talking about kids getting picked on at school. I am talking about kids living through a period of time where s/he is being raised by two people of the same sex, one of them not being the blood relative/mother/father of that individual. The individual that will be needed to teach and nurture that child during certain periods of their upbringing.

[quote=Civic_Zen]The fact is, and you said it yourself. It is BEYOND your power to control the slight disgust, or revulsion that comes into your heart, and your mind when you see two guys kissing. Now you admitted this, now imagine your parents kissing, and replacing your mom with another guy. Wouldn't it be even worse because they are your parents??[/quote]

No, I don't think so. If I were raised with two men as my parents, I would be accustomed to that. Just like I am accustomed to see a man and a woman kissing, which doesn't need to take place in public either. I was btw referring to something like a french kiss, not just a normal kiss on he lips. But then again, I don't need to see a boy and a girl making out like that on the street. :wink:

I think your wrong, like I said. Its instinctive. Different philosphies would say different things, like one would say your surroundings effect your personality. Another would say your born the way you are. The fact is that both are true. Yes, your surroundings do dictate a lot, but some things are just instinctive. I've never met another man that wasn't some what repulsed by the act of men kissing, who wasn't gay or questionable himself.

I am speaking from the experience of myself and everyone around me, and because of the music we all listen to, I think its safe to assume that we on this board all have some experience with this issue.

But I have no way to prove my point, nor do you. Until someone on this board says he was raised by two men his whole life, and proves one of us right. And then its still questionable, and could be a complete fluke

I went digging for this article to go back and edit a previous post with the info, but since I don't expect people to re-read posts they've already read looking for edits, here it is again.

[url]http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html[/url]

The APA has concluded that, essentially, children raised by homosexual parents do not seem to differ from children raised by heterosexual parents. Those of you arguing that gay parents can harm children's development would be well served to read this study.

[quote=cosmo]You're getting the two(segregation & gay marriage) completely mixed up. At the time, of course, blacks weren't allowed to do certain things, I will give you that. I agree that blacks were treated unfairly, BUT, that is wholly different than letting gay people marry, for the fact that gay marriage rights do not exist at this time, in contrast to the 50's and 60's, when blacks were allowed by law to attend the same school as whites, they were just intimidated. [/quote]

No, I'm really not, but that isn't the point. Let me ask it this way: was early 1900's segregation OK at the time it was going on because it was legal?

If national legislation were explicitly passed which allowed gay marriage, would you have a problem with a judge who refused to marry them? Would such a judge be an "activist judge?"

[quote=thefncrow]I went digging for this article to go back and edit a previous post with the info, but since I don't expect people to re-read posts they've already read looking for edits, here it is again.

[url]http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html[/url]

The APA has concluded that, essentially, children raised by homosexual parents do not seem to differ from children raised by heterosexual parents. Those of you arguing that gay parents can harm children's development would be well served to read this study.[/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You mean the politically correct and biased APA?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just another study.

[quote=cosmo][quote=thefncrow]I went digging for this article to go back and edit a previous post with the info, but since I don't expect people to re-read posts they've already read looking for edits, here it is again.

[url]http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html[/url]

The APA has concluded that, essentially, children raised by homosexual parents do not seem to differ from children raised by heterosexual parents. Those of you arguing that gay parents can harm children's development would be well served to read this study.[/quote]

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You mean the politically correct and biased APA?

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Just another study.[/quote]

:lol:

How do you conduct a study like that any way. Until I know someone personally, raised by two guys, and I talk to him face to face. I won't really form an opinion. All I'm saying is I would absolutely sue the shit out of the abortion agency that let two men adopt me. To each their own.

But then again, most of the time the parents are deeply involved in the choice of parents for the kid. So in a sense its OK, since it would take a certain kind of parent to let 2 gay men adopt their child. Its an absolute shame that some people are even aloud to have children. :lol:

not to add fuel to the fire here, but there atre studies that support both sides of the issue of children of gay parents. A very interesting article that I recently read that is quite on point was:

"Growing Up With Mom & Mom" By Susan Dominus New York Times Magazine dated October 24, 2004

here's a link but it costs money to get the whole article (could be gotten much cheaper at any library): [url]http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F60911FD395E0C778EDDA90994DC404482&incamp=archive:search[/url]

I don't mean to keep repeating myself, or continue the fire as ruby put it. But I think there are big differences between a girl getting raised by two women, or even a girl being raised by two men. To that of raising a boy. The only example I can relate to personally, and relatively, is two men raising a boy. I think its much different as well if two women were to raise a boy, because I think it could adversely affect him having no father figure.

For some reason, I find that it would be much easier for a girl to grow up with two moms, I think that would be the easiest of the four scenerios.

Wether you're right or not, I do think you have a point there. I think the story behind it is pretty psychological in the end, but I am pretty convinced that the is a sifnificant difference between boy and girls in relation to a father figure.

For men it is important, for women maybe less...at least that's how I think about it.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

although i'm straight and with a few gay friends, i believe that gay marriage should be legal.

isn't this the land of the free, oh wait, but that's only if you're straight???? b.s.

i mean, is it really a sacred institution if j-lo can get married and divorced a gizallion times and brityney spears getting married in vegas b/c she was drunk and then later anulled the following week??

i think we're in the 21st century, so lets act like it.

anyways, enough ranting, just my 0.02.

Heheh, nice comparison...

If straight people are allowed to fuck up their marriages, so are gay people!

But hey, you got a point there: if marriage is such a holy institution, why are those people allowed to rape it?