MADRID, January 3, 2004 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Spain's Socialist-led cabinet approved a same-sex "marriage" bill Friday, moving the largely Catholic country one step closer to its full legalization.

The measure would enshrine rights to "married" same-sex couples normally reserved for heterosexual spouses, such as the adoption of children, pension benefits and inheritance rights.

Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero, besides pushing to legalize same-sex "marriage," has already legalized embryonic stem cell research, while also proposing easier access to abortion.

Zapatero's government has also proposed eliminating mandatory Christian religion classes, while at the same time introducing courses on Muslim religion into high school curricula.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

runningman is really going to throw a fit over this.

go ask for his hand!!!

i dont agree with "same-sex"marriage, its enough that gay people are tolerated whatever science would say about gay relations i dont think religion agrees on this its simply not natural

time to piss off all the christians around there...

anyone find it slightly ironic that this is all based on equal rights, but yet is stepping all over the rights of jewish and christian people to protect one of thier holiest sacrements and keep it sacred. one small group takes something away from a larger group(well realistically, the more devote followers)

[quote=qwerty2222]i dont agree with "same-sex"marriage, its enough that gay people are tolerated whatever science would say about gay relations i dont think religion agrees on this its simply not natural[/quote]

closet playgirl reader imo.

i know its a touchy topic. but while i am all for the equal rights and recognition of gay couples, i kinda dont wanna see em grab the title or "marriage". marriage developed as a religious sacrement, first under the anceint hebrew texts and furthur into the christian relgions. it stinks that something they believe is sacred and protected is being infringed upon b/c of the beleifs of the civil rights activists.

one more thing, on a more personal note, and i even find it sad for myself, is that i don't think, at least at this point in time with the social climates, that gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, and i say this only b/c i went to school with a kid who had 2 dads and god he was picked on so bad. its tough on the kid. they deserve a chance to at least have a healthy social life and develope the social skills. i mean i admit i very well could be wrong, but i saw this for a long time, almost 12 years actually, and that kid grew up being an outcast b/c his dad was gay.

[quote=thesightless]i don't think, at least at this point in time with the social climates, that gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, and i say this only b/c i went to school with a kid who had 2 dads and god he was picked on so bad. its tough on the kid. they deserve a chance to at least have a healthy social life and develope the social skills. i mean i admit i very well could be wrong, but i saw this for a long time, almost 12 years actually, and that kid grew up being an outcast b/c his dad was gay.[/quote] dont you think that's a little bit shalow you dont agree with gay couples adopting children because that kid could become an outcast how about that couple's feelings on growing a children and do you think that kid has more chances growing in a social institute than along with pople who really care for him?

[quote=thesightless]time to piss off all the christians around there...

anyone find it slightly ironic that this is all based on equal rights, but yet is stepping all over the rights of jewish and christian people to protect one of thier holiest sacrements and keep it sacred. one small group takes something away from a larger group(well realistically, the more devote followers)[/quote] are you suggesting that the "small group" is gays and they may be encroaching on "the rights of jewish and christian people"?

[quote=thesightless]i know its a touchy topic. but while i am all for the equal rights and recognition of gay couples, i kinda dont wanna see em grab the title or "marriage". marriage developed as a religious sacrement, first under the anceint hebrew texts and furthur into the christian relgions. it stinks that something they believe is sacred and protected is being infringed upon b/c of the beleifs of the civil rights activists.

one more thing, on a more personal note, and i even find it sad for myself, is that i don't think, at least at this point in time with the social climates, that gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, and i say this only b/c i went to school with a kid who had 2 dads and god he was picked on so bad. its tough on the kid. they deserve a chance to at least have a healthy social life and develope the social skills. i mean i admit i very well could be wrong, but i saw this for a long time, almost 12 years actually, and that kid grew up being an outcast b/c his dad was gay.[/quote]

The issue is that Christians and Jews don't get to control marriage anymore, because its been co-opted by the government. If they want to retain control of what marriage is, they must divorce it entirely from the government. If gay people get "civil unions" and straight people get "marriages", that's "separate but equal", which is, as it was put in Brown v. Board, patently false, because separate makes them inherently unequal. If the religious folks want their tradition back, they must take it away from the government, because the government is not allowed to discriminate in the same manner as private organizations.

Studies by the APA[[url]http://www.apa.org/pi/parent.html][/url] show that children raised by gay parents end up being roughly the same as children raised by straight parents. We don't let the reaction of bigots influence policy, because, if we did, then the bigots win. Its a laughable excuse to treat a minority part of the population as second-class citizens.

[quote=qwerty2222]i dont agree with "same-sex"marriage, its enough that gay people are tolerated whatever science would say about gay relations i dont think religion agrees on this its simply not natural[/quote]

i don't agree with fundy marriage, its enough that christanofascists are tolerated whatever religion would say about fundy relations i dont think reality agrees on this its simply not ethical

Wow, that's fun. I love turning groups of people into second-class citizens!

:mrgreen:

Glad to see you're having fun here, thefncrow...

I must say I agree with what you've said, and as a full-blooded liberal I can of course not be against gay marriage, but I'm not going to repeat myself.

See [url]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=8703[/url] for my opinions on this... The exclusive right to the term marriage is an interesting though I think...it may provide a solution. If 'governmental' marriage were to take on a new name, we wouldn't have to bitch over this word so much. Any opponents then would simply be discriminating against law imo.

hey at least i admit that i feel sad / ashamed of both myself and this world that people cant simply just accept people. i always try to. but sometimes i find a few people that i would pay to have shipped out of town.

and regarding the children, i just felt terrible that the boy was chastized all his life for someone else's choices. it tough, but since i saw it firsthand for 12 years, i did develope an opinion, and hell i will admit it, when i was younger, even i made fun of him, but i grew up and realized that he was a normal kid with his own life and i was nice to him. however, too many dumb people cant see that and will never accept people like him. just look at all the KKK people in the south. how long has it been?....... :? tough world. just try to make your corner of it as good as you can.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

[quote=Jenks]runningman is really going to throw a fit over this.[/quote]

Bhahah :lol: hes such a Fag... :P

[quote]and regarding the children, i just felt terrible that the boy was chastized all his life for someone else's choices. it tough, but since i saw it firsthand for 12 years, i did develope an opinion, and hell i will admit it, when i was younger, even i made fun of him, but i grew up and realized that he was a normal kid with his own life and i was nice to him. however, too many dumb people cant see that and will never accept people like him. just look at all the KKK people in the south. how long has it been? [/quote]

I see what you're saying here, but I wonder if this would be the same now as it was when you were in school. There has been a lot of change in the perception of homosexuals in this country over the last decade. I really don't know that it would be as big a deal as it was in years past. The younger generations in particular, who have been brought up in a society where someone's status as a gay person in the pop culture world barely draws a blink anymore, is more accepting than prior generations, I would suspect.

TOASTY, i think its even worse. and i am from ultra liberal NYC. i could honestly tell you that if a little kid from any neighborhood in the metro area admitted to it, his classmates would not only make fun of it, they would probably phsically hurt him. i have seen it from a few techers i know. they actually had to make a highschool solely for the gay students becausse of the physical and mental harrassment and there were, and still are, many many protests about that.

i think , right now, it is even worse because of how much of a stink has been made over gay rights. there has been such a battle over the past years, many people have been over exposed to it, and developed opinions a lot stronger than before. with this, there are a lot more stright people than gay, and that also affects the opinions. our law firm lost in court to have one of our clients be able to claim his gay lover(b4 marriage recognition) as a dependent, because he was out of work for some time and the guy supported him. i have seen both sides and realize how far off we are from true equal rights.

the main argument is that the more religious christians and jews do not want theier sacrement tainted by something thier religion condems. and i respect that. you know, it really comes down to a matter of wording. marriage began as a religious right, not a civil liberty. i understand and respect that. :?

^^ That's surprising. I would not have expected that. We're unfortunately further off than I thought, I suppose...

I have to continue to disagree with the idea that marriage began as a religious right. Marriage as an institution existed before the it was recognized as a sacrament by the Jewish texts. If the Jews and Christians are troubled that gays are trying to take advantage of a pre-existing custom that they have adopted into their religion, perhaps they ought to consider coming up with their own, purely religious, covenant that does not carry legal implications.

marriage devoloped from the idea of partnership. marriage itself did indeed come from the ancient hebrew texts. maybe davetlv could help out with this. but i willl try to look it up after work.

Yeah, it's about time we get that cleared up: is the claim on marriage by religious groups legit?

Are any claims by religious groups legit? :Naughty:

What if some gays (undoubtedly) are also Christian or Jewish?? Surely since they believe in the Christian, or Jewish God which is ultimately the same, they should be aloud to wed under their religious beliefs the same as a strait person.

I see both sides of the equation here, but as far as where religion falls into place on either side is irrelevant. Even though gay people being what they are by nature (arguably) is by itself, blasphemy in the eyes of the church, it doesn't mean that a gay person can't worship the "lord" or a God in their own way, and without any of the absolute hypocracy that any religion endows upon its faith. Like saying gay people are the devils work or some BS like that.

Like I said, I can argue both sides, but not because marriage being a religious rite has anything to do with it. That is completely irrelevant in my eyes, and religious people who argue it are merely using it as an excuse. I don't know exactly where I stand on gay marriage, but you know what, I don't really care either way. It may seem selfish, but the reason I am primarily conservative politically is because I only concentrate on things that matter to me, and the people that matter to me. Like lower taxes so I can see more of my hard earned cash, not some jackass who refuses to work. People think your being kind to them, but in reality your only hurting them more, by showing them that they don't have to work or be a part of society. Gay marriage isn't important to me, at all, because I'm not really close to any gay people, and the few that I do know are so damn permiscuous, the idea that they could settle down is perposterous. Stereo type? Maybe, but every gay person I've ever met was about 5x more sexually active then even the most slutty guy I've known. One who would sleep with a different girl usually every week, that same week my gay "acquaintance" would sleep with 2 guys, and then the Bi people are just as bad and sometimes worse. The female bi people I've known any way. But marriage just doesn't last now and days regardless of sexual orientation. Its sad to see what the institution has come to, since it means very little to any one any way, so why should it matter?

Regardless, one thing I don't understand is how most people who oppose gay marriage have reason to do so. Religion and its relevance is negligable. Any other excuse you can use to say they should not be aloud to marry is pretty unsubstantial as well. There are many nuances that make me question the gay society as a whole, and whether or not an adopted child has the right to choose. Its really for another discussion, but I would never want gay parents, and if I was adopted by them I would probably resent them even more and their way of life. But then again who knows, I would have no way of knowing that unless I was raised by 2 guys. I can only say that I am thankful that didn't happen. That is really my main argument against gay's getting married, and you know what, its not relevant either. Because gays will adopt kids any way, whether their married or not.

So in essence, I could come out 100% honestly and say that I might be a little disparriaged by most gay people i've met, and most especially gay men. Mainly because it seems completely unnatural to me, from a scientific stand point, not religious. But I dont see any real argument against why they can't get married.

Hahaha, good question. As a non believer, I'd have to say NO. :wink:

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

try these links, again, im not jewish, but at least i tried to look it up.

[url]http://marriage.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?zi=1/XJ&sdn=marriage&zu=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.umanitoba.ca%2Ffaculties%2Farts%2Fanthropology%2Ftutor%2Fcase_studies%2Fhebrews%2Fmarriage.html[/url]

[url]http://www.ewtn.com/library/MARRIAGE/09693A.TXT[/url]

Leviticus 18:22 from the old testement? i forget. i know it condemns homosexual behaviour.

[url]http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/vismarr/marr1.htm[/url]

straight catholic look at it. [url]http://www.stcatherine.org/marriage.html[/url]

indian(country, not bow and arrow) view [url]http://members.tripod.com/anantmithal/Itihaas/1997/it970820LegendOfMarriage.html[/url]

again, i dont neccessarily agree with it.

This doesn't really answer the question, but it does shed some light on the uncertainty surrounding the issue:

[url]http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2004/02/25/MNGNG57QMP1.DTL[/url]

See also:

[url]http://marriage.about.com/cs/generalhistory/a/marriagehistory.htm[/url]

I have gay friends, and I'm okay with it. I don't condemn them, but I do believe that the best way to celebrate life is to have a wife/husband and kids, and to raise your kids the best way you can. I think that the best way to raise kids is to have the mother and father present at all times, inside the home. To express your sexuality to the extent of marrying someone of the same sex, sometimes passes off as being selfish, and experimenting with ones being a little too far.

I mean, what about the kids?

If you want to be gay, then enjoy your life with your partner, but [i]if there are kids involved[/i], I would suggest that the person involved in their gay relationships think twice before exposing their children into that arena. If the father divorces his significant other that has a kid already, and marries into another gay relationship, there are 4 gay individuals I think? If the other family member wants to see the kid of course. That has to be damaging to a child.

If that happens so be it, but I do believe there are better atmospheres to have a child brought up.

Just a thought.

[quote=cosmo]I have gay friends, and I'm okay with it. I don't condemn them, but I do believe that the best way to celebrate life is to have a wife/husband and kids, and to raise your kids the best way you can. I think that the best way to raise kids is to have the mother and father present at all times, inside the home. To express your sexuality to the extent of marrying someone of the same sex, sometimes passes off as being selfish, and experimenting with ones being a little too far. [/quote]

This seems to imply a responsibility to have children. What if kids aren't a part of the equation? I'll be getting married myself in September. My wife and I might have a child, we might not. If we do have a kid, it will be because we want to, not because we are duty-bound because we got married.

Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it. I fail to understand how a gay person getting married is selfish.

[quote=cosmo] If you want to be gay, then enjoy your life with your partner, but [i]if there are kids involved[/i], I would suggest that the person involved in their gay relationships think twice before exposing their children into that arena. If the father divorces his significant other that has a kid already, and marries into another gay relationship, there are 4 gay individuals I think? If the other family member wants to see the kid of course. That has to be damaging to a child.

If that happens so be it, but I do believe there are better atmospheres to have a child brought up. [/quote]

Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?

[quote=toasty] Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it. [/quote]

But see thats just it. At what age do you gain your rights, and at what point do you acknowledge them? Does the kid being adopted have the right to choose his parents? And if so, should he/she be able to express that he would prefer a dad and a mom, versus two dads.

[quote=toasty]Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?[/quote]

Not really, but it does leave it open to further discussion. If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.

[quote=Civic_Zen]If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.[/quote] I don't know, but women are pretty damn hard to understand...may make some things a lot easier. :wink:

Indeed. :lol:

But seriously, it may be that its something wrong with my thought processes, and my logic. And the logic of most of the American public, but the thought of two men together is disheartening, if only a little. Once 2 guys start making out in public is when it becomes a bit more then that, for me. Not entering the range of disgust yet, but I will definetely have the impulse to look away. And having two fathers???

Obviously I have no way to test this hypothosis, but I think I would have grown up quite a bit differently had that been the case. How? I don't know, but I can only assume that it would have a negative effect on me, could even drive me to a life of crime or drug use. Or at the very least cause a further lack of respect for the life style. But then again, maybe things would have been different and I would have excepted it. I only base this analysis on my current personality, and the fact that its quite similar to a friend of mine. Who has a father who divorced his mom later in life because he was gay, its not the same, but he is now more homo phobic then anyone else I know.

[quote=Civic_Zen]But see thats just it. At what age do you gain your rights, and at what point do you acknowledge them? Does the kid being adopted have the right to choose his parents? And if so, should he/she be able to express that he would prefer a dad and a mom, versus two dads.[/quote]

But hey...I didn't choose my parents either, did I? I mean, this still implies there's something fundamentally wrong with having two gay people as your parents. This is placing the problem with the gay parents, while imo the problem lies in society not accepting this. If it were generally accepted, would the child have any problems other than the usual?

This is what they call combatting the symptoms, not the disease.

[quote=Civic_Zen]Not really, but it does leave it open to further discussion. If you had been adopted, would you have wanted to grow up with two fathers?? If given the choice of course.[/quote]

Who cares, as long as they take good care of me, and none of my dads is acting real queer in public, like Big Gay Al from Southpark :WinkNSmi:

[quote="Civic_Zen]But seriously, it may be that its something wrong with my thought processes, and my logic. And the logic of most of the American public, but the thought of two men together is disheartening, if only a little. Once 2 guys start making out in public is when it becomes a bit more then that, for me. Not entering the range of disgust yet, but I will definetely have the impulse to look away.[/quote]

Well, you're not the only one. I know enough people that don't have any problems with gay people that still don't like the sight of males kissing. I am one of them you know. Can't even tell why, but I can't stop the feeling.

[quote=Civic_Zen]Obviously I have no way to test this hypothosis, but I think I would have grown up quite a bit differently had that been the case. How? I don't know, but I can only assume that it would have a negative effect on me, could even drive me to a life of crime or drug use. Or at the very least cause a further lack of respect for the life style. But then again, maybe things would have been different and I would have excepted it. I only base this analysis on my current personality, and the fact that its quite similar to a friend of mine. Who has a father who divorced his mom later in life because he was gay, its not the same, but he is now more homo phobic then anyone else I know.[/quote]

I respect your views, just some things I don't understand.

I would sooner think it's the other way round...your friend is not homophobic because his dad is gay I think, this has more to do that he lost his dad to 'gayness'. His reaction is pretty normal. If you've had two caring and loving fathers, who have raised you to be a good human being, how could you hate them? Or at the least be negatively affected? That is a [i]contradictio in terminis[/i]...a good experience causing a negative ressponse.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

[quote]This seems to imply a responsibility to have children. What if kids aren't a part of the equation? I'll be getting married myself in September. My wife and I might have a child, we might not. If we do have a kid, it will be because we want to, not because we are duty-bound because we got married.

Happiness is a subjective thing, and everyone is entitled to certain inalienable rights, including "the pursuit of happiness." As long as the pursuit of that happiness doesn't infringe on anyone else's rights, I say go for it. I fail to understand how a gay person getting married is selfish.[/quote]

The gay 'lifestyle' is being selfish, regarding [i]child-rearing[/i]. That was the point of my post. What about the kids?

[quote]Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?[/quote]

In regards to child-rearing, of course. I thought I had made that clear, of course you didn't catch that.

[quote=Yao] But hey...I didn't choose my parents either, did I? I mean, this still implies there's something fundamentally wrong with having two gay people as your parents. This is placing the problem with the gay parents, while imo the problem lies in society not accepting this. If it were generally accepted, would the child have any problems other than the usual?

This is what they call combatting the symptoms, not the disease.[/quote]

See, but there is a huge difference. From a natural stand point, your parents created you. If they gave birth to you naturally, then that is the natural order of things. They gave you life, they gave a part of themselves to make you. It all becomes quite natural. From a scientific standpoint (I want to make sure I make myself clear, I am a scientist, not a fundamentalist) 2 men can't have a kid. And I believe there is a reason for that, from the natural order of life. If two men could naturally have a child, then it would relate to your analogy. The fact is, that they are entirely dissimilar, and thus your comparisson is utterly mute.

Most humans have the natural instinct to realize that if 2 men in nature can't have a kid, then its unnatural for them to raise one. This makes it quite simple to understand that my feelings are probably just natural instinct. Human's still sleep, not because they really need 8 hours, but because its in our DNA to do so. Thats how we survived the predators of the late prehistoric era and became what we are today. Science has proven that humans no longer need wisdom teeth, because we don't tear into raw flesh, and haven't for 100s of years. We use tools to eat, thus we are evolving to where its natural to be born without wisdom teeth. The number of examples I can give are endless, two men raising a child is unnatural. I'm sorry to those of you on this board that are gay, or just feel differently. But this is not merely my opinion, there is fact in what I am saying.

[quote=Yao] Who cares, as long as they take good care of me, and none of my dads is acting real queer in public, like Big Gay Al from Southpark :WinkNSmi:[/quote]

Why then would it matter if they were really queer in public?? What you have said here makes no sense, you basically contradicted yourself. You don't care, but yet you do. Unless that was just a joke, and it wouldn't bother you at all to wonder the malls as a small child in tow of your two dads who dressed you up that morning.

you may have to add some stuff, I edited my answer... :mrgreen:

As for being gay not being natural: it is in fact recorded among animals by scientists, so that is a non-argument as far as I'm concerned. The question still is...why? Some believe it is a mechanism of nature to avoid overpopulation, and even when you apply this to the human race, this doesn't seem so illogical. We are too many, destroying our habitat, though most people will see it differently.

But hey, to each his/her own. Be it gay or not.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

[quote=cosmo] [quote]Doesn't this assume that there is something "wrong" with gay people vis-a-vis straight people? That being in a gay household is somehow inherently wrong?[/quote]

In regards to child-rearing, of course. I thought I had made that clear, of course you didn't catch that.[/quote]

Actually, I did catch that as to the second point. I don't find there to be anything about a gay person as compared to a straight person that makes them less loving, nuturing, able to provide guidance and teaching, etc., or anything else that is involved in the parenting process.

I am cognizant of the problems that children may experience as it relates to other kids and having to put up with some teasing or worse. I had thought that it would be better now than in years past, but that evidently isn't the case, per a post by thesightless earlier today, which is unfortunate. Candidly, that's probably the most valid reason I've heard for being apprehensive of allowing gay families to adopt. With that said:

1. It is not as if kids with two straight parents are immune from catching hell from other kids for any of a host of reasons. Kids are cruel, and will latch onto whatever they can to tease one another.

2. There have been a lot of unpleasant bridges that we've had to cross through our nation's history, and yet we have done so and are a stronger nation because of it. What if we were still sending our kids to segregated schools because we were afraid that kids were not going to accept one another back in the 60's? It takes time, of course, but it is something that has to happen to move forward.

[quote=Yao]

But hey, to each his/her own. Be it gay or not.[/quote]

I don't have anything against gay people, I just think its questionable when or if they raise children. Obviously children at the age they are adapted wouldn't know if they would care or not, that is the innocence (wonderful isn't it) of a child. So it can be argued if its up to the state to intervene or not. Its just my personal stance, but one that is quite logical.

[quote=Yao] I would sooner think it's the other way round...your friend is not homophobic because his dad is gay I think, this has more to do that he lost his dad to 'gayness'. His reaction is pretty normal. If you've had two caring and loving fathers, who have raised you to be a good human being, how could you hate them? Or at the least be negatively affected? That is a [i]contradictio in terminis[/i]...a good experience causing a negative ressponse.[/quote]

Since this is all new, I shall double post.

I don't know if I would change because of it, or resent them or their life style more because of it. Like I said, that is only a hypothesis, one based on all the facts that are in my power to use. The only way to know is to invent a time machine, go back to my birth and be raised by two men.

The fact is, and you said it yourself. It is BEYOND your power to control the slight disgust, or revulsion that comes into your heart, and your mind when you see two guys kissing. Now you admitted this, now imagine your parents kissing, and replacing your mom with another guy. Wouldn't it be even worse because they are your parents?? I see my parents kiss and a part of me doesn't want to see that, but at the same time it warms my heart to know they have been married for 25 years now and still kiss each other. I hope I will be so lucky. But I know for a fact that if my parents were two guys, I wouldn't feel that warming sensation, and would most likely be disgusted by the scene. And can certainly not look at it like, "oh I hope I'm that lucky some day".

And then there is my other belief. That men could never really love another man that way, and I have facts to back it up. I've known enough gay men, this dad of my friends included, who are down right permiscuous. They don't stay with the same guy for 1 year, much less 25. I would see my child hood as more of a hazy wondering. My "dads" would all have new bfs all the time. So imagine that, your dads fighting one day, and the next your watching him make out with a new guy. And since you visit your other dad, on the weekends, its even worse. Maybe he is even more kinky and one night you wake up to some sort of horrifying orgy. I mean seriously, what are the chances of a gay couple staying married, or even staying together. Is it just my experiences that have tought me this, or what??

At least with a man and a women, when they get divorced and you walk in on your mom getting rocked by another guy, it may repulse you, you may hate him. But I think the level of hatred that can be garnered from such an event becomes ten fold with men because its instinctive to be repulsed by such behaviour. I could seriously see myself becoming enraged by this, to what end I don't know. I could go on about this for ever, so I will stop.

[quote=thesightless] one more thing, on a more personal note, and i even find it sad for myself, is that i don't think, at least at this point in time with the social climates, that gay couples should be allowed to adopt children, and i say this only b/c i went to school with a kid who had 2 dads and god he was picked on so bad. its tough on the kid. they deserve a chance to at least have a healthy social life and develope the social skills. i mean i admit i very well could be wrong, but i saw this for a long time, almost 12 years actually, and that kid grew up being an outcast b/c his dad was gay.[/quote]

You think that growing up an orfan with 0 parents is better than having the emotional and financial support from 2 parents??? even if they are the same sex, i would choose the second.

[quote=Civic_Zen] And then there is my other belief. That men could never really love another man that way, and I have facts to back it up. I've known enough gay men, this dad of my friends included, who are down right permiscuous. They don't stay with the same guy for 1 year, much less 25. I would see my child hood as more of a hazy wondering. My "dads" would all have new bfs all the time. So imagine that, your dads fighting one day, and the next your watching him make out with a new guy. And since you visit your other dad, on the weekends, its even worse. Maybe he is even more kinky and one night you wake up to some sort of horrifying orgy. I mean seriously, what are the chances of a gay couple staying married, or even staying together. Is it just my experiences that have tought me this, or what??
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Don't forget that when it comes to adopting children, adoption agencies don't just hand those little folks out willy nilly. If you're the type of person that likes to go through sexual partners at rapidfire pace, you're probably going to have a tough time convincing an adoption agency to fork over a kid to you anyway, whether you are gay or straight.

I had thought this was intrinsic in the debate, but perhaps it needs to be stated explicitly: I had assumed that we are talking about people who would pass through the screening process and be decent parents. The situation you're describing doesn't sound particularly stable and would, I think, disqualify someone.

You make a great point toasty, as always. But my reasoning for not wanting two dads isn't based solely on that issue. Its all encompassing, and that is merely a part of it.

Besides, records can be falsified. How is it that the adoption agency is going to know if the couple is lying or not? Unless they had their names together on an Apartment rent cheque, or the mortgage loan, or what have you. Or if the person had lots of partners, only if he/she had lots of apartments/housing with them, could you prove it either way. And if the two men want a child, and think they are ready for one, they will say whatever they have to say for it to happen.

I'm not entirely up to scuff on the process, I know what the couple goes through it they are hetero sexual, not if they were homo sexual.

My only point is that I think its questionable, quite questionable.

Re: Spain Approves Gay Marriage

On a related note, what do you that oppose gay people adopting children think of gay people who have natural children? I have two friends that are in this situation, both roughly my age: one had her mom come out after she was born, the other is a mom and came out after giving birth. Both were married at the time of birth, and both are the result of natural conception and birth. Both seem relatively normal and happy to me.

I would point out that this would seem to moot the argument that a gay person can't raise a child because it's not natural, in light of the fact that these are blood relations.

How about people that are bisexual? Suppose a guy has romantic relationships with both men and women, and ultimately commits himself to one person, a woman, and marries her. Can he raise a child without ruffling anyone's feathers?

Just trying to figure out where the line is drawn, and why...