[QUOTE]WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The accused mastermind of the September 11 attacks and four co-conspirators will be sent to New York for trial in a court near the site of the World Trade Center, the Obama administration said Friday, as it took a step toward closing the Guantanamo Bay prison.[/QUOTE][URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AC1S720091113[/URL]

wow, so in my view, obama's extreme left-wing political calculations and decisions (or lack of decisions) are just so "counter-intuitive," they defy all healthy, safe and normal reason. x_x

families of the victims are outraged at this! why put new york and the usa through this charade? the location of the trial is just steps from "ground zero" ... isn't that thoughtful of obama? :x the lower court in manhatten will be a platform for their views.

this is all very disturbing and a dark day not only for the victims's families but for america.

WTF

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

they shouls have just put a bullet in his head when they caught him.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=i!!ustrious;806408][URL]http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE5AC1S720091113[/URL]

wow, so in my view, obama's extreme left-wing political calculations and decisions (or lack of decisions) are just so "counter-intuitive," they defy all healthy, safe and normal reason. x_x

families of the victims are outraged at this! why put new york and the usa through this charade? the location of the trial is just steps from "ground zero" ... isn't that thoughtful of obama? :x the lower court in manhatten will be a platform for their views.

this is all very disturbing and a dark day not only for the victims's families but for america.

WTF[/QUOTE]

it also guarantees a conviction - noone is going to be impartial. a bigger knock for fair justice system than the families ?

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=runningman;806412]they shouls have just put a bullet in his head when they caught him.[/QUOTE]

this.

obama needs to be able to pronounce two words: "muslim terrorism" this he verily cannot do. shit, i'm just livid over this and the whole fort hood domestic treason. why does the administration of obama dodge the reality of the war on terrorism which is precisely the war against radical islam? blargh

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Let me preface this by noting that I don't say this in the defense of Obama or anyone else involved in this decision, but I really don't see what the big deal is. As the situs of 2/4 of the plane crashes and most of the victims, it is the obvious location under the venue statutes. There are other venues that would also be appropriate under the statute, but the connection between NYC and this trial makes it the clear frontrunner.

I'm sure there are many victims' families that think it is insensitive to hold the trial so close to the WTC, but I'm sure there are plenty of people in NYC that think that it is entirely appropriate and [I]preferable [/I]that these guys are going to face the justice system there in Manhattan than anywhere else in the country.

To those that are upset that constitutional protections are going to be extended to these guys, get over it. Here's a reality check -- these guys are not getting away with it, no matter what kind of protections are extended to them, and I for one believe the people of New York have earned the right to have that happen via a jury of New Yorkers. The only open question is whether they are executed or spend the rest of their lives getting sodomized in a federal supermax prison.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

point taken and i understand bro. pardon me for sidetracking/attributing this event to the larger problem, but i'm only seeing it that way, with regards to war.

khalid sheikh mohammed has said he wishes to plead guilty to his charges. [I]he wishes of course to be seen as a martyr.[/I] obama does not seem to be very appreciative of the victims or their families of 911 by holding it in a new york civil court, yeah. khalid was a guerrilla terrorist militarist and imo should have been tried in an military court. i reckon that churchill wanted to shoot or hang the nazi heads without trial; i would have hoped this could have been the case for khalid sheikh at least. that would never happen though.

it now seems unlikely (for some time at least) that our troop numbers will be increased due to the in decisision and lack of leadership by our president. what the hell does he think he is doing here? we need ironwill leadership in a hostile territory. those guys need fucking backup right now! i couldn't give a fuck that the afghani government is corrupt, it's all we have to work with. and they are working on all levels with the people to bring order, education as well as military backup, it's not just on the military level that the troops are working. but above all else, these recent events -- and how they're being handled -- are 'adding' to the ongoing 'impaling blow' against our troop's morale.

anyways, i'm hoping that obama can pull through and make the right calls in the perilous times to come. will be subjectively sending him all my very best...

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

the fact this asshole gets a trial is worse than any location they could have picked

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=i!!ustrious;806418]this.

obama needs to be able to pronounce two words: "muslim terrorism" this he verily cannot do. shit, i'm just livid over this and the whole fort hood domestic treason. why does the administration of obama dodge the reality of the war on terrorism which is precisely the war against radical islam? blargh[/QUOTE]

I'm honestly clapping out loud. thank you. this is the end all truth. frankly, ppl now think associating anything with vile religion is not pc, and will only stoke the furnace.

when i grew up, a rabid dog was put down after the first bite, now, we have to wait for it to bite a few ppl.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

I'd step back and question why even try the guy in a criminal court? In my mind, he's an enemy of the war and should be tried in a military tribunal. They should try, convict and execute him in Guantanamo. There's no need for this public spectacle of bringing him to NYC and before a court like domestic criminals.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

I agree with Toasty. While it may feel great to just toss our Constitution out the window in favor of administering quick vengeance upon people who commit particularly henious acts, you guys should recognize that you are really favoring the weakening the very set of safeguards that protect YOU. It is not sustainable to have to multiple standards that you arbitrarily apply to different sets of people based upon your emotions; while it may work in one case, sooner or later it is going to produce some horrible results for everyone.

I'm willing to bet that most people suddenly feel very differently about upholding the Constitution as soon as they think the situation has the potential to negatively impact them (Patriot Act, anyone?).

And the reason why people are careful around the subject of terrorism and Islam should be obvious: it's because not nearly all Muslims are terrorists, and history suggest that the line between "good" Muslims and "bad" Muslims tends to blur [I]very[/I] quickly when people go too far with their rage. Go look up what this country did to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor; it wasn't good. History is full of examples like this.

I suspect that where you hold the trial makes little difference for non-legal reasons. The people in NYC who suffered loss have already suffered those losses regardless of the trial location, and in this age of information technology, they will follow the story the same way regardless of where it is.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

thanks. this is part of the issue, hmm, that history repeats itself, unless we learn from the events of history -- and do something different. whether our review of history is provided in 2007, or 2001, or the 1940's... or the 1770's... or the 700's... or whenever?

we still need to act tough against this radical shit. i'm confident we've learned just enough from the past not to react to problems with outmoded faculty, at this point... as a human race. at least we've accepted utmost progress as our aim, and we're almost ready to exact containment swiftly on whatnot. radical and extreme devotion to ideals is a human problem... all is coming to the surface, and if there's some utility in glamour busting, this is certainly an opportunity for the millennium to do so... (in every part of civilization)

intrestingly enough, a college sent me this just the other day as we discussed world problems such as radical islam: [URL]http://www.weaponofmusicaldefense.com/songs/[/URL]

also relevant and related: "what thomas jefferson learned from the muslim book of jihad" [URL]http://www.usvetdsp.com/jan07/jeff_quran.htm[/URL]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

^^ I definitely agree that radical Islamists are a problem, as are any criminal-minded segments of the population out there that intend to harm innocent people. I want to see this country be firm in dealing with the threat, but I also don't want to see people take things so far that this becomes another witch hunt that ends up harming a bunch of innocent people who had nothing to do with the real problem. I tend to think that history lessons are quickly forgotten and that people today really aren't much better than they were in the past...so the risk is always there.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

^ roger that bro, that's my greatest concern for the ardent american population. i sure hope we don't crucify the integral muslim population in that fashion; cos if we do, we will have become the very thing we swore to stand against... that must not happen.

let wise discrimination, understanding n discernment guide their judgments.

shit i dont even know anymore... shit is so complicated and intense. blah

/holding fast and txting this from ym blackberry tonight

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

So will this trial be televised ?

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

wow. what a huge mistake it was voting obama into office....this is just insane. hopefully this idiotic decision brings him down.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.

They should have had a quiet execution right after they caught him. Giving them a public platform (Over weeks even months I bet) and basically martyring him is ridiculous. Now we will get to hear his views and why he did it. Nothing like inspiring the younger brigade. I can hear the chants now across the radical muslim world "KSM, KSM,KSM".. I'm sure we will hear a lot of judeo-christian and zionism in the weeks to come.

I like how gutless Obama is out of the country as well when this news broke. He is fucking gutless!!

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Didn't this bloke give a confession after he was tortured? Surley him saying he did it and proving he did it are 2 separate things, Are they going to bring some evidence other than his confession:what

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chunky;806551]Didn't this bloke give a confession after he was tortured? Surley him saying he did it and proving he did it are 2 separate things, Are they going to bring some evidence other than his confession:what[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.kangaroocourt.info/kangaroo-court.gif[/IMG]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

he probably is the guy that cashed the check from the US gov't after it happened chunky.

I would like to see the proof myself considering I don't believe the 9/11 commission story.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=runningman;806546]Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.

They should have had a quiet execution right after they caught him. Giving them a public platform (Over weeks even months I bet) and basically martyring him is ridiculous. Now we will get to hear his views and why he did it. Nothing like inspiring the younger brigade. I can hear the chants now across the radical muslim world "KSM, KSM,KSM".. I'm sure we will hear a lot of judeo-christian and zionism in the weeks to come.

I like how gutless Obama is out of the country as well when this news broke. He is fucking gutless!![/QUOTE]

I agree that I don't see how the Constitution applies to KSM. He's not a U.S. citizen. I don't see why we should give him rights just like one. We haven't treated him like a citizen, so why start now. I'm no lawyer, but water boarding and holding him in Cuba would be against a citizen's rights. We got what was needed from him for future attacks and he should be held as a foreign enemy combatant and treated as such. I believe there are Geneva convention rules for these situations.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=superdave;806673]We got what was needed from him for future attacks .[/QUOTE]

What exactly was that then? I'm very dubious as to why all these so called sleeper cells have eight years sleeping. The IRA seemed to do a much better job at terrorism. Its not like the country is locked down and people can't go out. I really don't think this is because of the war in Afghanistan or Government's are doing such a good job.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chunky;806716]What exactly was that then? I'm very dubious as to why all these so called sleeper cells have eight years sleeping. The IRA seemed to do a much better job at terrorism. Its not like the country is locked down and people can't go out. I really don't think this is because of the war in Afghanistan or Government's are doing such a good job.[/QUOTE]

We got information from him that stopped future attacks. Al Qaeda was planning to attack Los Angeles and other large cities. He also gave us information how the terrorists work and plan their attacks. Whether you think torture is right or wrong, it worked to prevent attacks.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=superdave;806749]We got information from him that stopped future attacks. Al Qaeda was planning to attack Los Angeles and other large cities. He also gave us information how the terrorists work and plan their attacks. Whether you think torture is right or wrong, it worked to prevent attacks.[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://aarkangel.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/jack_bauer_torture.jpg[/IMG]

The ticking time bomb scenario. Have we got Jack Bauer to thank.:roflmao:

Source?

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chunky;806751][IMG]http://aarkangel.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/jack_bauer_torture.jpg[/IMG]

The ticking time bomb scenario. Have we got Jack Bauer to thank.:roflmao:

Source?[/QUOTE]

Jack Bauer, the hero of the right, Fox News and the tea party nation. Only he could exist on a station owned by Fox. As for my source, you got me, I made it all up.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=runningman;806546]Miro the Constitution covers US citizens not foreign terrorists that have been held up in gitmo.. I am canadian, when I go to the states I am not covered by the constitution. So there goes that theory.[/QUOTE] Actually, it's not quite so simple.

This has been an ongoing general debate for a long time now, and there are many interpretations of it under different circumstances. There is no simple answer for every case, which is why these guys were being held in Gitmo to begin with; no one could figure out what the hell to do with them, legally speaking.

Certainly, there are many cases of obvious and perfectly acceptable differences in the treatment of citizens and non-citizens under the Constitution (for instance, only citizens vote); but there are other cases where it's not necessarily so black and white (due process for non-citizen who broke a law). In many countries around the world, if you break the law there, then the legal process of investigation and potential conviction can apply to you [I]even if you aren't a citizen of that country[/I].

And then you can get into more technical arguments about the wording and intention of the documents. Toasty, step in here and correct me pls... but it is my understanding that as far as Due Process goes, if you look at the 5th and the 14th Amendments of the US Constitution, they really specify what the government will and will not do; not what rights certain categories of people have. And if you look at the 14th Amendment (the state version), you'll find that the authors used an interesting distinction in Section 1 between "citizens of the United States" and "any person"....why?

[quote]Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities [B][I]of citizens[/I][/B] of the United States; nor shall any State deprive [U][B][I]any person[/I][/B][/U] of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.[/quote]

But beyond that, my opinionated point with my statement was this: in the long run, it becomes very difficult to sustain multiple separate standards for key basic treatments of human beings. This is because if we wish to recognize certain very basic rights in each other as citizens, we are compelled to recognize that they are ultimately founded int he realm of [I]human rights[/I]. If you extend all fairness and rights to citizens but you torture and malign all other categories of human beings with impunity...I don't think the system will work for long. Bear in mind that we do not have a separate set of due process laws and standards for "non-citizens"; we really have one set. I think that if we started down the path of interpretation that you suggest, we will find that it is a surprisingly slippery slope that sets the stage for incursions into everyone's rights, citizen and non-citizen alike.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=Miroslav;806782]Why do you think Gitmo was even created in the first place? Because legally, no one has been sure what the hell to do with these people. [/QUOTE]

This one is simple you let them go. If you dont intend to prosecute or have no evidence you let them go. You don't keep someone locked up because you don't know what to do with them.:Wacko:

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chunky;806785]This one is simple you let them go. If you dont intend to prosecute or have no evidence you let them go.[/QUOTE] Clearly, based on the article at the beginning of this thread, they intend to prosecute. Now, I'm not too well qualified to debate on whether they should have been tried in military courts as war criminals or through regular courts as regular criminals (which is what Obama has apparently decided), but the key point is that they still go through whatever pre-defined due process to which they are deemed entitled to as opposed to being killed at the arbitrary decision of whoever is there right now and has a gun.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=Miroslav;806788]Clearly, based on the article at the beginning of this thread, they intend to prosecute.[/QUOTE]

But how long have they taken to decide this? Has new evidence come to light? In the UK you can hold people without charge for 28 days. These people in Guantanamo people have been there for years.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

I think the timing is very suspicious. 8 years? I guess public opinion is needed. Maybe to justify more troops in Afghanistan.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chuckc;806537]wow. what a huge mistake it was voting obama into office....this is just insane. hopefully this idiotic decision brings him down.[/QUOTE]

WRONG. this... [QUOTE=Miroslav;806451]I agree with Toasty. While it may feel great to just toss our Constitution out the window in favor of administering quick vengeance upon people who commit particularly henious acts, you guys should recognize that you are really favoring the weakening the very set of safeguards that protect YOU. It is not sustainable to have to multiple standards that you arbitrarily apply to different sets of people based upon your emotions; while it may work in one case, sooner or later it is going to produce some horrible results for everyone.

I'm willing to bet that most people suddenly feel very differently about upholding the Constitution as soon as they think the situation has the potential to negatively impact them (Patriot Act, anyone?).

And the reason why people are careful around the subject of terrorism and Islam should be obvious: it's because not nearly all Muslims are terrorists, and history suggest that the line between "good" Muslims and "bad" Muslims tends to blur [I]very[/I] quickly when people go too far with their rage. Go look up what this country did to Japanese Americans after Pearl Harbor; it wasn't good. History is full of examples like this.

I suspect that where you hold the trial makes little difference for non-legal reasons. The people in NYC who suffered loss have already suffered those losses regardless of the trial location, and in this age of information technology, they will follow the story the same way regardless of where it is.[/QUOTE]

george bush reversed so many freedoms while he was in office it was mindblowing. thank god someone is actually sticking up for your constitution

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

again the constitution has nothing to do with this..

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

the obvious and right decision to make imo. Those of you who think people should be held or even killed without trial are mental.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=day_for_night;806861]WRONG. this...

george bush reversed so many freedoms while he was in office it was mindblowing. thank god someone is actually sticking up for your constitution[/QUOTE]

LOL - Obama is sticking up for the Constitution???? Thanks for the good laugh. Please provide some more information on this delusional claim. Obama voted for the Patriot act that Bush enacted after 9/11. Please enlighten us from North of the border how Obama is the defender of the Constitution. :p

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

is it me or does it seem like obamas on the terrorists side with all the decisions or indecicions he has made

his goals are to close guatonimo and move the enemy combatants to the states to be tried in state courts, move the mastermind to ny a block from the 911 site and try them in court, will be years and years of a media circus in that trial. 100Xworse than oj...needles to say how islamic papers will cover it.

in august his genral indicates how many soldiers he needs to win. its its almost december and still no decision

refusal to indicate the muslim radical that killed all those soldiers at fort hord could possibly be a terrorist.

it goes on and on.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=unrecogniseduser;806886]the obvious and right decision to make imo. Those of you who think people should be held or even killed without trial are mental.[/QUOTE]

what do you think you are doing in Gitmo?? :lol::lol:.. Do you think this is a new development? It was an act of war (assuming the 9/11 commission story). Bad things happen in war.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=superdave;806888]LOL - Obama is sticking up for the Constitution???? Thanks for the good laugh. Please provide some more information on this delusional claim. .[/QUOTE]

Your hardly one to talk about delusional claims

[QUOTE=superdave;806673]We got what was needed from him for future attacks .[/QUOTE]

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=runningman;806883]again the constitution has nothing to do with this..[/QUOTE] If you come over to our side of the border and get arrested for committing a crime, I'm willing to bet that they will read you your rights and process you the same way as they would anyone else. They may end up extraditing you back to your country, but they will do so as a part of due process in your case. I highly doubt that after looking at your Canadian driver's license that they will be able to just beat you and convict you with no trial, evidence, opportunity for you to defend yourself, etc.

And most other countries are the same way. What happens when you get arrested for dealing drugs in Singapore? They oftentimes try you and kill you, per the processes that they as a nation have set into law - and they don't give a shit where you're from.

So yes, the Constitution does have something to do with this. Clearly, judicial experts running our system think it does as well, since they're going to try these terrorists in court. You could argue that the place where America went wrong was in un-Constitutionally holding these guys for years without bringing charges against them, to chunky's point.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

Miro they can do whatever they want. Have you ever been stopped at your Nazi border crossings?? They laugh at you when you talk about your rights.. Believe me, I have been pulled over many, many times. I have no record and have been pulled over dozens of times and they found nothing. One time I got strip searched for no reason whatsoever.

Also what is with you and comparing your country to the worst countries on earth. Why don't you compare it to Canada or Norway?

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

[QUOTE=chuckc;806965][COLOR=Red][B]is it me[/B][/COLOR] or does it seem like obamas on the terrorists side with all the decisions or indecicions he has made

his goals are to close guatonimo and move the enemy combatants to the states to be tried in state courts, move the mastermind to ny a block from the 911 site and try them in court, will be years and years of a media circus in that trial. 100Xworse than oj...needles to say how islamic papers will cover it.

in august his genral indicates how many soldiers he needs to win. its its almost december and still no decision

refusal to indicate the muslim radical that killed all those soldiers at fort hord could possibly be a terrorist.

it goes on and on.[/QUOTE]

it's you.

Re: ...tried in new york?! wtf man

lol.