shows how fucking stupid america is.

nothing changed we've committed to anther small offensive market even worse more layoffs coming more big comapnies in trouble higher taxation american dollar value dropping oil actually rising.

congrats you idiots. vote this mook and mccain into final election and this is what we get. btw, keep congress in power, cuz they've done us so well so far, cheers to barney frank, pelosi, kennedy, etc.

Re: obama approval rating...

this is a PRO THIRD PARTY REMEMBRANCE THREAD.

enjoy the darky, he only fucking it up more.

Re: obama approval rating...

[QUOTE=thesightless;739911] nothing changed [/QUOTE]

with all due respect, are you being serious?

Re: obama approval rating...

[IMG]http://kittensinpants.com/lucinthsux/lolshs.GIF[/IMG]

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=thesightless;739911]shows how fucking stupid america is.

nothing changed we've committed to anther small offensive market even worse
more layoffs coming more big comapnies in trouble higher taxation american dollar value dropping oil actually rising.

congrats you idiots. vote this mook and mccain into final election and this is what we get. btw, keep congress in power, cuz they've done us so well so far, cheers to barney frank, pelosi, kennedy, etc.[/quote]

The market on Jan 19 7947.08, April 23 7957.06, even. High 2008 was 13058 in June.

Are layoffs coming, yes they are. Given the greed of some companies, yes it will happen.

Big companies are in trouble. But more companies are surprising recording more profits than last year.

Yes taxes are being raised. Yep someone has to pay for other people's miss management.

Right now the value of the dollar is no better when Obama came into office. The dollar high in 2008 was 1.59, and low 1.24 (10.27.08). On Jan 19 2009 1.29 today 1.31. Since Obama, no better, no worst. Given what has happen in the market this what you would expect.

At the height of oil prices last year in July oil was trading at 147.30 a barrel. At the start of this year 33.07 a barrel, today 49.32 a barrel. The national average of gas per gallon in July was over $4 a gallon. Today $2.06. Oil prices have been dropping down way before Obama came into office, but so has the people's need for oil. Besides do you trust OPEC!

And yes Obama Apporval rating has drop from 83 to 68. Bushes final approval was 22. People still have hope but hasn't seen the changes effect their wallet yet and where big corp are getting bailout money, where's mine.

Look I'm not here to get into a pissing match. Yes unemployment is going up, the housing market is still going down. Right now from the looks of things there is a big banaide on right now that has stop some of the bleeding. Now it might just start bleeding more and then again it might not.

This is not going to be fixed overnight. Obama has been in office for 93 days and had some pretty lofting goals for his first 100 days, and he not going to meet. But do you think McCain with a Democrat majority would have done any better? He might of, but there is no way to judge that. Or do you think there is a 3rd party person that is strong enough to pull everyone together to fix this? I would love to know who so I can keep an eye on them.

The biggest problem is our party system. The Dem and the Rep have their hard set ideals that can not be broken, not even for the stake of our Country. Its my way or its no way, and that's is just fuck up. There no third party that is strong enough to take them on. We could go on and beat this into the ground and still not figure this out. Our system to broken, but its what we got.:|

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=floridaorange;739919]with all due respect, are you being serious?[/quote]

your right. lots have changed. Now, if you work your ass off, make a lot of money or get a bonus you are evil.

Re: obama approval rating...

I don't think it would be any difference who was in power at the moment

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=speciale;740277]your right. lots have changed. Now, if you work your ass off, make a lot of money or get a bonus you are evil.[/quote] only if you made it by destroying the economy (pushing ridiculous mortgages, overextending credit, repackaging securitized crap, rating crappy investments as AAA, etc.). :p

[quote=mtguru;739940]This is not going to be fixed overnight. Obama has been in office for 93 days and had some pretty lofting goals for his first 100 days, and he not going to meet. But do you think McCain with a Democrat majority would have done any better? He might of, but there is no way to judge that. Or do you think there is a 3rd party person that is strong enough to pull everyone together to fix this? I would love to know who so I can keep an eye on them.[/quote] +1 EXACTLY.

People are quick to bitch about anyone running things when they don't see [I]instant change[/I] while we're in the middle of freaking Great Depression 2.0 - the Lite version...come on it's not gonna happen, folks. This will take a long time to dig out of, so get used to it.

Re: obama approval rating...

enjoy the darky? really? lmao, what a fuckin ridiculous comment

its been what 3 months? i think it's going to take at least a full term to even BEGIN to repair what the prior assholes in charge have done to this country

no one put a gun to your head and MADE you get a job in the financial industry.. I've been in my job/industry since 1997 and have really felt no effects of this recession career wise, so i guess it's all relative huh?

but, i'm sure if Obama was white, things would be A LOT netter huh? lol

Re: obama approval rating...

[QUOTE=speciale;740277]Now, if you work your ass off, make a lot of money or get a bonus you are evil.[/QUOTE]

thats just absurd :lol:

Re: obama approval rating...

mind you, though... I'm not a hugely pro-Obama. I'm pretty warily on the fence about the guy. I just think that: (1) the stakes are higher for him than for probably any president in the last quarter century (or more) and it's going to take a while to see how his huge bets play out, and (2) we'd be bitching out [I]anyone[/I] in that office right now.

Make no mistake..things could really blow up in his face. Like every leader in every tough time, he most chart a course and take on a lot of risk. The line between success and failure is thin, and we'll have a much better sense about half way through his term as to where he stands.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=Steve Graham;740722] its been what 3 months? i think it's going to take at least a full term to even BEGIN to repair what the prior assholes in charge have done to this country[/quote]

Sadly, most of the assholes in charge that got us in this mess are still in the house and congress (it wasn't just the Bush administration, lame duck as it was). Obama has a huge hurdle to jump in that regard and I doubt that any current president would do any better.

Re: obama approval rating...

I've kept an eye to where things are going in general, but rather wait and see if the President et Al can fix this current mess, I'm busting my own ass and formulating my own action/"bailout" plan to get me to where I want to get in life.

Then if the shit really DOES hit the fan as some may project, I know I'll be in good shape to weather the big storm and not flail around barely treading water like so many others are right now...

Re: obama approval rating...

^^ can you share the general points with us? :) All I've got right now is save a bunch of money, stick a bunch in gold, start learning karate, and store up a lot of bottled water.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=Kiff;740832]Sadly, most of the assholes in charge that got us in this mess are still in the house and congress (it wasn't just the Bush administration, lame duck as it was).[/quote]

unfortunately, most people only see the president. 90% of our nation cant even name one person in congress. I just wish they had term limits like the presidency.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=thesightless;739911]shows how fucking stupid america is.

nothing changed we've committed to anther small offensive market even worse more layoffs coming more big comapnies in trouble higher taxation american dollar value dropping oil actually rising.

congrats you idiots. vote this mook and mccain into final election and this is what we get. btw, keep congress in power, cuz they've done us so well so far, cheers to barney frank, pelosi, kennedy, etc.[/quote]

sean, this post is absolutely stupid. hate to put such a fine point on it, but shut the fuck up for christ's sake. jesus...

[B]nothing changed[/B]

WRONG. repealing torture policies = win. beginning to undo bush's environmental fuck ups = win. 1000x more transparency with the media = win. appologizing to the rest of the world for the past 8 years = win. reaching out to countries like iran and cuba to restart diplomaticy = win. these are the things i came up with off the top of my head at work on a monday morning. i know there are more.

[B]we've committed to another small offensive[/B]

Correct, but this is only part of the story. Firstly, they've committed to an offensive that actually has merit. This is where all of the effort since 9/11 should have been focused, not bloody iraq. Second, he has announce the intention of getting out of iraq, and a shift towards where the terrorist actually ARE...namely afghanistan and pakistan. imagine that...

[B]market even worse.[/B]

Please name for me someone who would have turned the markets around by now. and no, Santa Claus does not qualify.

[B]more layoffs coming[/B]

see above.

[B]more big companies in trouble[/B]

i'm getting tired of saying this, but see above.

[B]higher taxation.[/B]

you're deficit and debt load is insane. imagine actually having to pay for it. unless you guys have a very large sum of money hidden under some fantastically huge matress...guess what. time to pay up. plus you'll need a few extra bucks to you know...pay for the bailouts, and institute some social programs.

[B]american dollar dropping[/B]

this is actually GOOD news for you. really shocked you are against this having some financial background. guess what...american dollar drops, your exports go up. this moves your balance of trade in the right direction, cause its completely fucked right now and has been for far too long.

[B]oil is rising[/B]

no its not. its been stuck in the 44-52 dollar range for the past several months. i track it every day and its not going anywhere.

so get your head out of your ass. i'm tired of moronic posting in here...

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=day_for_night;741112]

[B]nothing changed[/B]

WRONG. repealing torture policies = win. beginning to undo bush's environmental fuck ups = win. 1000x more transparency with the media = win. appologizing to the rest of the world for the past 8 years = win. reaching out to countries like iran and cuba to restart diplomaticy = win. these are the things i came up with off the top of my head at work on a monday morning. i know there are more. [/quote]

What you are saying here is very opinionated. I am for torturing these people who attack and will keep planning to attack Americans. If it can save lives do it.

Transparent with the media? I think it is far worse. He talks and never gives detail. He says he will post the stimulus bill online for 5 days for the people to read and never did. He is a typical politican smooth talker.

He looked like a kid bullied by chavez and the other dicators at the LA summit. He looked like the weak one. dimplomacy?

I dont see myslef apologizng to the world. This is again a sign of weakness. Where is his diplomacy with N Korea? I agree with talking with other countries since we already do with Saudi Arabia who dont give any freedoms to women, yet just like bush he bowed to their king. Restore some dimplomacy but dont go in kissing their asses.

Again, what you are calling a win, I call a loss. 2 different Opinions.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=speciale;741163]What you are saying here is very opinionated. I am for torturing these people who attack and will keep planning to attack Americans. If it can save lives do it.

Transparent with the media? I think it is far worse. He talks and never gives detail. He says he will post the stimulus bill online for 5 days for the people to read and never did. He is a typical politican smooth talker.

He looked like a kid bullied by chavez and the other dicators at the LA summit. He looked like the weak one. dimplomacy?

I dont see myslef apologizng to the world. This is again a sign of weakness. Where is his diplomacy with N Korea? I agree with talking with other countries since we already do with Saudi Arabia who dont give any freedoms to women, yet just like bush he bowed to their king. Restore some dimplomacy but dont go in kissing their asses.

Again, what you are calling a win, I call a loss. 2 different Opinions.[/quote]

torture has not now, and will never work. there are numerous studies on why it does not. even the FBI agents who have been conducting the torture on the detainies as sanctioned by the bush administration have flat out admitted it did not gain them anything of value. here's why...when you are torturing someone, they'll say anything to get you to stop. bill maher just had a guest on his show, a CIA agent who himself was tortured in Iran when he was captured as a spy there. this guy wrote an entire book on why torture doesn't work...i gotta dig up his name. infact, you should watch that episode of real time with bill maher...the CIA guy flat out says "it has not saved any lives".

to claim you are a civilized nation and resort to torture...you put yourselves on the same level as those you are interogating. for christ sakes, the US didn't torture people in WWII, and they won that one. its called the geneva convention, and they should try living up to it.

transparency....i think you're pointing to a couple of rare exceptions. he actually answers questions, he doesn't deflect nearly as much. he gives [B]coherent[/B] answers as well. i'm going to dig up some examples of this.

and don't take this personally, but if you don't think america needs to appologize for the last eight years, then you just don't get it. the rest of the world sees you as arrogant, smug, and the cause of the mess we are in now. OF COURSE you should appologize. that you think saying your sorry shows you're weak is NUTS. an appology shows you are a bit humble, and america needs a big slice of humble pie right now. the entire world is hurting because of your subprime bullshit. suck it up, say sorry, move on. everyone else will love you for it in the long run.

as far as him bowing to the king...how long you think that meeting would have lasted had he not bowed? its called protocol, you don't throw it out the window just cause you don't agree with everything a country does. you can't change things if your pissing people off, which is what bush jr just never understood. a true dimplomat does things behind closed doors. you do not go embarassing another world leader.

you think he looked bullied by chavez? really? the most powerful man on planet earth bullied by some whacko dictator who wont be in power in 5 years time? umm no.

the diplomacy with north korea will come. rome wasn't built in a day, and they will get there. n korea is too busy kicking out nuclear inspectors right now...

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote]to claim you are a civilized nation and resort to torture...you put yourselves on the same level as those you are interogating. for christ sakes, the US didn't torture people in WWII, and they won that one. its called the geneva convention, and they should try living up to it.[/quote]

[COLOR=red]And yet we dropped 2 bombs that killed over 100,000 people. But those were innocent lives. People living their everyday lives in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The terrorists on the other hand, I say drop them off in NYC and let the people of NY handle them. They dont deserve any of our rights and should rot in hell.[/COLOR]

[quote]transparency....i think you're pointing to a couple of rare exceptions. he actually answers questions, he doesn't deflect nearly as much. he gives [B]coherent[/B] answers as well. i'm going to dig up some examples of this.[/quote]

[COLOR=red]Please dont. :lol: But also, look at Gibbs. He represents obama and he never gives a straight answer to any semi tough questions. [/COLOR]

[quote]and don't take this personally, but if you don't think america needs to appologize for the last eight years, then you just don't get it. the rest of the world sees you as arrogant, smug, and the cause of the mess we are in now. OF COURSE you should appologize. that you think saying your sorry shows you're week is NUTS. an appology shows you are a bit humble, and america needs a big slice of humble pie right now. the entire world is hurting because of your subprime bullshit. suck it up, say sorry, move on. everyone else will love you for it in the long run.[/quote]

[LEFT][COLOR=red][COLOR=#ff0000]Iraq is the only thing we should apologize for but apologize to the families of the innocent Iraqis who died and to the families of the American soldiers who died fighting for our country. Not to the rest of the world. [/COLOR][/LEFT] [/COLOR] [quote]as far as him bowing to the king...how long you think that meeting would have lasted had he not bowed? its called protocol, you don't throw it out the window just cause you don't agree with everything a country does. you can't change things if your pissing people off, which is what bush jr just never understood. a true dimplomat does things behind closed doors. you do not go embarassing another world leader.[/quote]

[COLOR=red]I said Bush did it to. Personally, I dont bow to any man. We are all created equal. The king should keep our traditions as well and can give a hand shake. Its a 2 way street.[/COLOR]

[quote]you think he looked bullied by chavez? really? the most powerful man on planet earth bullied by some whacko dictator who wont be in power in 5 years time? umm no.[/quote]

[COLOR=red]Careful because Chavez got passed in law another chance to run for power. If he gets voted in again, poor people of Venezuela. It is sad that people follow that prick[/COLOR]

[quote]the diplomacy with north korea will come. rome wasn't built in a day, and they will get there. n korea is too busy kicking out nuclear inspectors right now...[/quote]

[COLOR=#ff0000]I havent seen Obama move on this. Someone has too and very soon. Sometimes its hard to be diplomatic with a leader who forces their people to live a certain way. Someone posted here once photos from a photographer who snuck the photos out of N Korea and it showed how bad the people have it there. It was sad. I know it is not a situation we can screw up like bush did with Iraq but someone needs to get the ball rolling. S Korea is even trying. They will have the most to lose. Get China and Russia to be on our side. It is the only way I see them disarming. Remember, N Korean government hates our way of a free life. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=red]Also, reading the sightless' post again, I think a lot of what he is complaining about is our crappy congress more than obama. But I could be wrong :p[/COLOR]

Re: obama approval rating...

[COLOR=red]And yet we dropped 2 bombs that killed over 100,000 people. But those were innocent lives. People living their everyday lives in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. The terrorists on the other hand, I say drop them off in NYC and let the people of NY handle them. They dont deserve any of our rights and should rot in hell.[/COLOR]

you're comparing apples and soccer balls. the people who died in japan were casualties of war, and dropping those bombs did save lives. entire japanese villages were committing suicide rather than be captured by the americans. everyone agrees it was horrific, but in the end saved both american and japanese lives. the few japanese who were captured were not tortured.

despite what they do, all people deserve fair trials. you do not get to preach democracy and justice, but then not live by those rules yourself.

[COLOR=red]Please dont. :lol: But also, look at Gibbs. He represents obama and he never gives a straight answer to any semi tough questions. [/COLOR]

find me an administration in the history of the world that didn't have one or two double talkers.

[LEFT][COLOR=red][COLOR=#ff0000]Iraq is the only thing we should apologize for but apologize to the families of the innocent Iraqis who died and to the families of the American soldiers who died fighting for our country. Not to the rest of the world. [/COLOR][/COLOR][/LEFT]

[LEFT]no, you need to appologize for the worst recession since the 1930s, cause your country started it by poor management of your financial system and living beyond your means for decades.[/LEFT]

[COLOR=red]I said Bush did it to. Personally, I dont bow to any man. We are all created equal. The king should keep our traditions as well and can give a hand shake. Its a 2 way street.[/COLOR]

then its good your not a diplomat.

[COLOR=red]Careful because Chavez got passed in law another chance to run for power. If he gets voted in again, poor people of Venezuela. It is sad that people follow that prick[/COLOR]

the part about him not being around in 5 years was definitely my opinion.

[COLOR=#ff0000]I havent seen Obama move on this. Someone has too and very soon. Sometimes its hard to be diplomatic with a leader who forces their people to live a certain way. Someone posted here once photos from a photographer who snuck the photos out of N Korea and it showed how bad the people have it there. It was sad. I know it is not a situation we can screw up like bush did with Iraq but someone needs to get the ball rolling. S Korea is even trying. They will have the most to lose. Get China and Russia to be on our side. It is the only way I see them disarming. Remember, N Korean government hates our way of a free life. [/COLOR]

no argument here...

[COLOR=red]Also, reading the sightless' post again, I think a lot of what he is complaining about is our crappy congress more than obama. But I could be wrong :p[/COLOR]

no, he hates obama.

Re: obama approval rating...

[QUOTE]and living beyond your means for decades.[/QUOTE]

bingo. someone get him a trophy because this is undeniable. the american dream is based on mortgaging everything based on a false sense of entitlement becuase someone else studied harder or played better and thay earned more and made you look, well, part of the system.

Re: obama approval rating...

wow...nice to see a discussion going...

I honestly think that day for night (sorry don't know your name mate) is right about most things apart from the whole Hiroshima - Nagasaki thing and most world historians would agree. At least it can certainly be said that there was no need for two bombs to be dropped.

As for everything else Speciale...you really need to pick up a European news paper...freedom fries lol America does need to apologize and believe me it has only begun. As for bowing to the king...yes its called diplomatic protocol and furthermore its very important for the US to keep good relations with the Saudi's especially since they are starting to turn towards China. You need to understand that the US is NOT self sufficient and as much as you would like to believe the opposite the time of US unilateralism has past. The US simply does not have the money anymore to make a new enemy every other day.

Honestly the best you can hope for is that the US maintains its Super power status. I think that new political works will no longer refer to the present world system as a uni-polar one...but that's something only time will tell.

p.s. to make it clear I don't believe Obama is god's gift to the world but he at least better than Bush in some regards. That is undeniable.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=Shpira;741322] As for everything else Speciale...you really need to pick up a European news paper...freedom fries lol America does need to apologize and believe me it has only begun. As for bowing to the king...yes its called diplomatic protocol and furthermore its very important for the US to keep good relations with the Saudi's especially since they are starting to turn towards China. You need to understand that the US is NOT self sufficient and as much as you would like to believe the opposite the time of US unilateralism has past. The US simply does not have the money anymore to make a new enemy every other day.

Honestly the best you can hope for is that the US maintains its Super power status. I think that new political works will no longer refer to the present world system as a uni-polar one...but that's something only time will tell.

p.s. to make it clear I don't believe Obama is god's gift to the world but he at least better than Bush in some regards. That is undeniable.[/quote]

IMO, I bow to no man. I can shake hands, curtsy, hug, hi 5, slap on the ass, cop a feel, a reach around or anything, but to me bowing to someone is different. But that is me. sorry for having an opinion. A bunch of people made a big deal about michelle obama putting her arm around the queen, but you dont see me bitching about that. we are all humans.

Freedom Fries? WTF? I am pretty stoned and some fires would be good right about now. :what

From what a get from your posts is you have some huge agenda against the United States. Why? Why do you want us to fail so bad?

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=day_for_night;741212] you're comparing apples and soccer balls. the people who died in japan were casualties of war, and dropping those bombs did save lives. entire japanese villages were committing suicide rather than be captured by the americans. everyone agrees it was horrific, but in the end saved both american and japanese lives. the few japanese who were captured were not tortured.

despite what they do, all people deserve fair trials. you do not get to preach democracy and justice, but then not live by those rules yourself. .[/quote]

I disagree with you here. These were everyday folks living their lives. They had no clue of what hit them. So wouldnt it be better to watrerboard a few people trying to save lives versus taking out an entire city to save lives? Plus some of thepeople being tortured planned the attack that killed 3000 Americans. They deserve to die, not be tortured.

As for the suicides avoiding American capture, I never heard of civlilians doing it. I heard more of soldiers in battle. If you got some reading on this, PM me a link. I am fascinated with WWII. ;)

[quote=Shpira;741322]wow...nice to see a discussion going...

I honestly think that day for night (sorry don't know your name mate) is right about most things apart from the whole Hiroshima - Nagasaki thing and most world historians would agree. At least it can certainly be said that there was no need for two bombs to be dropped.

[/quote]

I so agree with you here. It is one thing killing in the line of battle, but to attack an entire city with a nuclear attack is another. Dropping the 2nd bomb was not needed. My father-in-law was stationed there a few years after and it was horrifying to hear the stories of the families lost and the people who now with deformaties from radiation were on the streets begging. Life is a fragile thing.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=Shpira;741322]wow...nice to see a discussion going...

I honestly think that day for night (sorry don't know your name mate) is right about most things apart from the whole Hiroshima - Nagasaki thing and most world historians would agree. At least it can certainly be said that there was no need for two bombs to be dropped.[/quote]

look under my name, its jeff ;)

and japan didn't surrender after the first bomb...so they dropped another. its pretty straightforward. the entire society had been indoctrinated into the kamakaze way of thinking...better to die than surrender.

taken from another message board, and written by a guy who has read over a hundred books on the subject:

Had america fought a conventional war against japan:

The estimates were that over one million American casualties would be incurred in an invasion, killed and wounded.

Estimates of Japanese casualties, military and civilian, was somewhere between 3 and 10 million, depending on the duration of the defense.

Totals of the immediate dead and eventual dead from both atomic bombs was under 500,000, so if the decision is weighed in the number of dead, the bombs saved many more lives than they took.

Re: obama approval rating...

Lol...I don't have a huge agenda against the US. You should critically examine the world you live in order to understand all the flaws that are rampant in our society. The US is just the country most of you guys seem to know about and discuss in the politics section. Since I study politics its natural that I can argue my opinion. As far as I a concerned we can analyse any nation and criticise its actions.

One thing though for a nation that goes around poking its head into other peoples business the US has a pretty far from perfect back record thats why its fun to analyse it. In addition it seems to me that a lot of Americans don't know shit about the country they live in or about its history yet they maintain that its the "best" country in the world whatever that means.

Furthermore as currently themost powerful nation in the world it bears the largest amount of responsability for the current state of the world.

if you start a thread about any country and its politics or foreign policy I would be more than willing to contribute.

p.s. the world (including the US and all other nations) is not perfect in fact its pretty far from it. The first step to finding a solution is identifying problems.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=speciale;741349] I so agree with you here. It is one thing killing in the line of battle, but to attack an entire city with a nuclear attack is another. Dropping the 2nd bomb was not needed. My father-in-law was stationed there a few years after and it was horrifying to hear the stories of the families lost and the people who now with deformaties from radiation were on the streets begging. Life is a fragile thing.[/quote]

i don't think you guys are remembering how war was fought back then. there was no such thing as 'smart bombs'. when they bombed germany and japan, they did it out of B2's, and it was carpet bombing...they killed military and non military people indiscriminantly.

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=day_for_night;741351]look under my name, its jeff ;)

and japan didn't surrender after the first bomb...so they dropped another. its pretty straightforward. the entire society had been indoctrinated into the kamakaze way of thinking...better to die than surrender.

taken from another message board, and written by a guy who has read over a hundred books on the subject:

Had america fought a conventional war against japan:

The estimates were that over one million American casualties would be incurred in an invasion, killed and wounded.

Estimates of Japanese casualties, military and civilian, was somewhere between 3 and 10 million, depending on the duration of the defense.

Totals of the immediate dead and eventual dead from both atomic bombs was under 500,000, so if the decision is weighed in the number of dead, the bombs saved many more lives than they took.[/quote]

Hmm that is certainly one way to ending it...a naval blockade would be another.

p.s. sorry about the name thing Jeff its been a long day :)

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=Shpira;741355]Hmm that is certainly one way to ending it...a naval blockade would be another.[/quote]

not really feasible...

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL9ZC8SJxQI[/youtube]

but we've veered off topic. this is for another thread...

Re: obama approval rating...

[quote=day_for_night;741351]look under my name, its jeff ;)

and japan didn't surrender after the first bomb...so they dropped another. its pretty straightforward. the entire society had been indoctrinated into the kamakaze way of thinking...better to die than surrender.

taken from another message board, and written by a guy who has read over a hundred books on the subject:

Had america fought a conventional war against japan:

The estimates were that over one million American casualties would be incurred in an invasion, killed and wounded.

Estimates of Japanese casualties, military and civilian, was somewhere between 3 and 10 million, depending on the duration of the defense.

Totals of the immediate dead and eventual dead from both atomic bombs was under 500,000, so if the decision is weighed in the number of dead, the bombs saved many more lives than they took.[/quote]

Not the entire country of Japan agreed to the followings of their government. I doubt it. The Kamikaze way. If that were the case, the entire country would have enlisted for the war.

Your right and I wont argue, Japan should have surrendered after the first bomb. But I think Truman or someone in our government could have suggested, lets drop our second bomb away from the city to remind them of the destruction. At least give it a try because I do know it would have been bad if we invaded Japan. An invasion would have had more people fighting to the death. Imagine someone invading your country. I would fight to the death protecting my rights.

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no oil... no planes, no boats no nothing...the end of WW2 with Germany would have allowed for huge amounts of resources to be transferred to the East. The fact of the matter is that the Cold War began way before WW2 ended... Hiroshima and Nagasaki served as a reminder to the Soviet Army that it needs to stop at Berlin as the Conventional forces of the USSR would have most likely just kept steaming forward.

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[quote=Shpira;741360]no oil... no planes, no boats no nothing...the end of WW2 with Germany would have allowed for huge amounts of resources to be transferred to the East. The fact of the matter is that the Cold War began way before WW2 ended... Hiroshima and Nagasaki served as a reminder to the Soviet Army that it needs to stop at Berlin as the Conventional forces of the USSR would have most likely just kept steaming forward.[/quote]

Actually not in Churchills mind. If only Truman would have listened to him, Soviets would have had to work for half of Germany. Truman was able to drop those bombs but not have enough balls to push the Soviets back? Stalin didnt seem to scared to test Truman after the bombs.

Too bad Oil can start wars. Cutting off oil to Japan was a mistake. History always repeats itself. :(

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[quote=Shpira;741360] The fact of the matter is that the Cold War began way before WW2 ended... .[/quote]

I wish people would accept that. Many historians say it was the end of the war, but they are way off.

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[quote=speciale;741346]IMO, I bow to no man. I can shake hands, curtsy, hug, hi 5, slap on the ass, cop a feel, a reach around or anything, but to me bowing to someone is different. But that is me. sorry for having an opinion.[/quote] It's just a matter of protocol and a sign of respect in their culture; it doesn't actually mean that you are somehow subservient. For heaven's sake, lay off the macho sauce. :lol:

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[quote=Miroslav;741378]It's just a matter of protocol and a sign of respect in their culture; it doesn't actually mean that you are somehow subservient. For heaven's sake, lay off the macho sauce. :lol:[/quote]

Was the reach around comment taking to too far? :lol:

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[quote=speciale;741369]Actually not in Churchills mind. If only Truman would have listened to him, Soviets would have had to work for half of Germany. Truman was able to drop those bombs but not have enough balls to push the Soviets back? Stalin didnt seem to scared to test Truman after the bombs.

Too bad Oil can start wars. Cutting off oil to Japan was a mistake. History always repeats itself. :([/quote]

No matter what the English say Churchill was an idiot. Its not about balls its about reality. The US fighting conditions and those the USSR experienced do not compare. Read up on Stalingrad. Also the US is a democracy the USSR wasn't...meaning that the soviet soldiers were shot if they retreated but it also means that they were allowed and actively encouraged to rape German women. The USSR army was pretty psychotic during ww2...they truly made it hell for all the German troops that were on the eastern front. It was considered the biggest punishment to be sent to fight against the Russians as it meant almost certain death...the sheer number of USSR conventional forces was overwhelming even compared to that of USA....and USSR weapons such as the t-34 tank were so much more superior to anything the US or Germany produced at the time. Although many argue that the Tiger was the best tank the sheer complexity of the engine meant that it was often left behind on the battlefield as they couldn't fix it although it did have the best Armour and the largest caliber of the canon.

we should have a history section...:)

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[quote=Shpira;741388]No matter what the English say Churchill was an idiot. Its not about balls its about reality. The US fighting conditions and those the USSR experienced do not compare. Read up on Stalingrad. Also the US is a democracy the USSR wasn't...meaning that the soviet soldiers were shot if they retreated but it also means that they were allowed and actively encouraged to rape German women. The USSR army was pretty psychotic during ww2...they truly made it hell for all the German troops that were on the eastern front. It was considered the biggest punishment to be sent to fight against the Russians as it meant almost certain death...the sheer number of USSR conventional forces was overwhelming even compared to that of USA....and USSR weapons such as the t-34 tank were so much more superior to anything the US or Germany produced at the time. Although many argue that the Tiger was the best tank the sheer complexity of the engine meant that it was often left behind on the battlefield as they couldn't fix it although it did have the best Armour and the largest caliber of the canon.

we should have a history section...:)[/quote]

lol we should. Actually Poland had the best tanks in the world at that time. only if they didnt depend on France and England by taking their word, blitzkrieg might not have been so quick and swift. You can only play defense so long until the other team will score on you. Poland should have fought without waiting for broken promises.Very sad to what the people in Warsaw had to go through.

You think what the USSR did to germans was bad, my grandfather and grandmother were in the Polish army and sent to a POW camp. At that time, the germans sent them to the soviets. There, they were treated bad, really bad. In fact, they executed a pol each day. It was my grandfathers time, he stood there waiting for the bullet in the back of the head, but after 30 minutes, nothing happened. He just heard soviets arguing. Then they told him to get in a train. who was he to argue. By luck, that was because germany attack mother russia. So instead of killing the polish prisoners, they threw them on the front line. How fuckn cruel. Needless to say both my grandparents escaped with general anders to the middle east. The stories are horrific. Very difficult for him to talk about it. They were so starved and near death, but after they recovered, both of them went back and helped the allies to win back Italy. Battle of Monte Casino is their symphony. In a scary way, if hitler didnt , my grandparents would have never met and I wouldnt be here today.

My grandfather turned 91 and almost lost a battle to skin cancer this year. Needless to say, he is coming up to visit from Ft Lauderdale in June and will see his great grand daughter.

A history section would be great, but I only think a handful of us would be posting in there. :lol:

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hehe...mate they may have been good but Poland had less than 200 tanks at the outbreak of the war. So blitzkrieg would blitz through either way...

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[quote=day_for_night;741354]i don't think you guys are remembering how war was fought back then. there was no such thing as 'smart bombs'. when they bombed germany and japan, they did it out of B2's, and it was carpet bombing...they killed military and non military people indiscriminantly.[/quote]

Actually they we're dropped out of B-29's. B-2's are these beastly things:

[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/dc/US_Air_Force_B-2_Spirit.jpg/800px-US_Air_Force_B-2_Spirit.jpg[/IMG]

Just sayin'. ;)

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would you bow in japan since its custom speciale?