Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Yea, no surprise! They have some things to hide

Day 12: The body count is now at 700, of which 300 Children and 100 women.... Probably they were caught shooting some Kassams or Grad rockets... :x

Don't even dare to watch the news coz it makes me feel like :puke2:

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

If the terrorists wouldnt hide behind innocent women and children this wouldnt happen.

This confilct will never end until the religious sense of "if you dont think what i think you are my enemy" stops.

Here in south america we are also feeling the heat. Chavez made the israeli embassador leave the country a few days ago. Thats not nice lol.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=ganjamo;695107]If the terrorists wouldn't hide behind innocent women and children this wouldnt happen.[/quote]

^ I agree in this as a principle, but as it turned out Gaza strip is VERY highly dense in population. And besides, The UNRWA schools are not part of Palestine (or Israel), they part of the UN and should not have been bombed:

Numbers talk: 700 bodies, more than 50% of them are women and children!

When the Israelis want to bomb a civilian area to the ground (I mean no one building is left standing) they drop leaflets inviting the residents to leave their homes so that they make less casualties. This is very much appreciated of course in order to spare civilian lives.

Yesterday they dropped leaflets on the southern border of the Gaza strip, border with Egypt (Ra-Fah), coz they suspect it of being a smuggling area filled with depots of weapons. Fine...very much appreciated for letting the civilian leave their homes (they were given only 3 hrs time to pack and disappear)....but where to go?? In a place as small as Gaza strip, where bombs are being dropped from its northern to its southern border, where does the IDF expect civilians (mainly women and children) to hide?

Well there are very very few places where they can seek to shelter from bombs: And the United Nations is one of them...... but the IDF BOMBS the U.N. as well!!!! So where are the civilians suppose to seek refuge?!

For now the war remains on the suburbs of towns and cities of Gaza, the IDF knows that the heat will turn up on them when their soldiers will have to street-fight in the city streets, the urban ones; Easy to position tanks and planes and start bombing right and left, lest see how things will turn on the stage 3 of this war: take over the cities!

And for the readers: maybe you are not aware that, although IDF is sooo powerful, Israel's weakest point is the public opinion, just like any democracy that goes to war. Syria or Iraq (previous) for instance, can afford to loose hundreds of thousands of soldiers, no questions asked! This is the nature of dictatorships, and their strength. But in case of Israel, it is the opposite: A high rate of casualties, or a few IDF soldiers made prisoniers, can totally change the course of this war.

Now the IDF, in stage 3 of the war, is moving into towns and cities. The palestinians want to keep their promise (as their leaders stated many times) which is to convert Gaza into an Israeli cemitary. And in order to do this, the palestinians have to face the IDF in street-fighting in towns and cities, and this is where the worse is yet to be expected...

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This about what really happened at the UNRWA school?

[quote][B] [URL="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2009/01/what-really-happened-at-unrwa-school.html"]What really happened at the UNRWA school?[/URL] [/B]

Chris Gunness, UNRWA spokesman, said that the agency was "[URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3651977,00.html"]99.9% certain[/URL]" that no terrorists were on the grounds of the UNRWA school that saw some 30 people die yesterday.

John Ging, director of the UNRWA in Gaza, says that there is [URL="http://www.columbusdispatch.com/live/content/national_world/stories/2009/01/07/mc_mideast2.ART_ART_01-07-09_A1_TQCEPSO.html?sid=101"]no way[/URL] that terrorists could have been there. How does he know? Because "U.N. staff members and Palestinian families in the school compound in the Jabaliya refugee camp had been screened for weapons."

The [URL="http://www.boston.com/news/world/middleeast/articles/2009/01/07/israelis_hit_school_in_gaza_30_killed/"]AP reported[/URL] immediately after the explosions:

[quote]Two residents of the area who spoke by telephone said they saw a small group of militants firing mortar rounds from a street near the school, the Associated Press reported. [B]They spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of reprisal,[/B] the AP said. The residents said the two brothers were known to be low-level Hamas militants. They said a group of militants - one of them said four - were firing mortar shells from near the school.[/quote]The [URL="http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2008/s2460476.htm"]IDF says[/URL] that "The information that we have is that there was the launching of a mortar from the school's yard towards one of our forces. Our forces retaliated but it turned out that the school was booby trapped and as a result of our retaliation, everything flared up. There were a lot of secondary explosions from which probably those people were wounded."

From the [URL="http://www.daylife.com/photo/09Jt4KI1Co2Hd/gaza_school"]pictures [/URL]of the school that have been published, and from statements, it does not appear that anyone is claiming that mortars were being shot from within the school nor that Israel shot back into the school building. And Ging is clearly lying when he says that no weapons are allowed into UNRWA schools, as the IDF showed [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zmXXUOs27lI&eurl=http://www.israellycool.com/"]video [/URL]of mortars being shot from that same school in 2007. In addition, in at least one case a [URL="http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2008/05/teacher-and-bombmaker.html"]UNRWA teacher[/URL] was also an Islamic Jihad terrorist. And it is hard to take seriously that idea that the UNRWA can stop heavily armed terrorists from doing whatever they want at their schools anyway, especially when the agency will never criticize Hamas; and most of its employees are Palestinian Arabs who know that they would be killed if they do anything against the wishes of Hamas. Beyond that, Hamas has shown that it uses schools to store weapons, as the IDF showed[URL="http://idfspokesperson.com/2009/01/06/missiles-found-in-gaza-school-6-jan-2009/"] yet again[/URL] yesterday.

At this time my guess is that the mortars were shot from either very close to the school or within the school compound, Israel automatically returned fire to that same spot, and some of that shrapnel caused secondary explosions from bombs or weapons that were inside the school compound, although I am not sure about the booby traps. The death total seems way too high for tank shells alone. Obviously the residents of Gaza are too afraid to give evidence that would implicate Hamas and similarly photographers are afraid to take pictures that would show any clear terrorist activity in the school or outside it. (Hamas has already shown no compunction about brutally murdering "collaborators" in the fog of war, that are in all likelihood being counted as deaths from the IDF.)

(It is also interesting that while the initial reports said 42-45 dead, the UN later said that it was 30 dead, but today's newspapers report the higher figure as fact. The casualty count from the war is certainly higher than the reality.)[/quote]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Tnx for the info Dave....

In military tactics, there is a HUGE difference between saying "NEAR" the school, or "INSIDE" the school. The IDF with their all powerful weapons and experience could have handled that issue without having to kill innocents.

For God sake's, Israel has even the magic single weapon it recently invented, that no one else has: A shotgun that shoots at 90 degrees angle, shooting without exposing the shooter to its target!!!

The IDF could have handled this in so many other ways...!!! There were just a building or two!

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva

My understanding was that the position was shelled - then came a secondary explosion - caused by the build of weapons in the school grounds by Hamas.

Now, using civilians as human shields, well, thats just good tactics for a losing Hamas isn't it, especially in light of your earlier comments.

I wonder whether you have any thoughts regarding the three Katyusha rockets that hit the Israeli northern city of Nahariya this morning? URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3652649,00.html"[/URL]

Does anything actually happen in the south of your country without the express approval of Hizbollah?

Also, do you not think, in light of the French-Egyptian brokered talks due to take place today in Cairo, that an attack on our northern cities from Lebanon will do nothing to bring about a cease fire? And if its discovered that Hizbollah either approved of or fired the rockets themselves, will you hold them responsible for any retaliatory action taken by my country?

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Dave, I have opened a second thread since we are talking of a second front now: [URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?p=695169#post695169[/URL]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

I'll see you there then my friend :lol:

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ :D yes, I had to open a new thread or this one will become a salad. Actually the way things might evolve, we might have to open many threads...middle-eastern style... :lol:

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Well we do like to talk!

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ In my perspective, it would interesting to find a place where I could exchange ideas and better understand the world I live in. By Lebanese law, it is forbidden to any Lebanese to talk or to be associate with any Israeli (considered the enemy).

So I have never had the chance to find a place where I could, even publicly, try to understand the thoughts on the other side of the border. I do deal with several artists from beyond the border, but it sticks to musical issues only since it is artist-to-artist relationship.

However, here on [MS], I am not talking with an Israeli, I am posting on a public forum where everybody could read and participate. No conspiracies, and a clean exchange of points of view.

I do have few questions to ask from someone from the "other side" who is willing to discuss these matters in an honest and mature way. This topic is so complex that there are many things that I still don't understand coz I donno what is the other perspective of the story. So maybe through [MS] I could understand that...

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Shiva;695271] I do have few questions to ask from someone from the "other side" who is willing to discuss these matters in an honest and mature way. This topic is so complex that there are many things that I still don't understand coz I donno what is the other perspective of the story. So maybe through [MS] I could understand that...[/quote]

I would be delighted to answer any questions - you might not get the Israeli government line, but you will get an honest response from me, and from my perspective Shiva I have enjoyed reading your take on the situation greatly.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ Beautiful Dave.

I know I won't get a response from the Israeli gov, but you are an Israeli citizen, you live there, follow the situation etc etc, just as I am, here in Lebanon. We don't read everything on the media, you cant feel the mood and deep thoughts of a nation through reading only. Discussing it with someone who actually lives there can give you a broader account of things, especially if done in a constructive way...really.

Most people know me as an artist, but I also have my own intellect, knowledge and a university degree as well; To me this is one the most important subjects: I was not born in Lebanon but I chose this country as mine, I love it and would like to understand more, not by googling but rather through someone who lives it, just like I do.

Thank you Dave for your disposal of doing this, and whoever would like to pitch in...

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This war has to stop!!!!

Question: Why Israel is not accepting the return of the 67 refugees?

Is it a balance of demography thing, between Israelis and Palestinians? Coz the fact that Israel is denying their return doesn't show good intention. Israel is so advanced and powerful militarily while the Palestinians barely have a police corp.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

again shiva this is about the whole region not just gaza, Iran is the goal in all of this.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

But that wouldn't ask my question. Iran or not, Israel has to deal with the Palestinian refugees, sooner or later (it it wants real peace).

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Norwegian doctor on CBS

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ev6ojm62qwA&feature=channel_page[/YOUTUBE]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Shiva;695488]This war has to stop!!!!

Question: Why Israel is not accepting the return of the 67 refugees?

Is it a balance of demography thing, between Israelis and Palestinians? Coz the fact that Israel is denying their return doesn't show good intention. Israel is so advanced and powerful militarily while the Palestinians barely have a police corp.[/quote]

There is no call for a return of 67 refugees, for if there would they would be returned to Jordan and Egypt.

There is however a call for a return of refugees from 1948 - an average estimate of those numbers stand at approx 600K.

Additionally, you should note that there is NO call for a return of the 850K Jews who were expelled from Arab countries between 1948 and the mid-50's..

There is some question as to why we still have refugees, and why the Palestinians are dealt with differently under UN law than every other group of refugees since the second world war.

Israeli authorities, and by this i mean the Jewish Agency and its leaders pre the decleration of independance in 1948, begged Arab residents not to heed the calls of their leaders to leave their homes, but the arabs who left did so under the impression that it would be temporary and that they could return to their homes after the new state of israel had been defeated. Well, defeat never came. People became reugees, and from that moment on it became more important for Arab nations to keep those people in camps and as second class citizens than it was to welcome them into the countries they had gone to - some thing that has happened to no other group of refugees in the last century (to my knowledge)

Might I suggest as a source Shiva you try wikipedia - for amongst all its fault, the history from late 19th to mid 20th for the middle east is pretty neutral and accurate.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

A bit about 'your' so called Norweigian Doctor

[quote] The source of most of the information coming from Gaza thus far has been from Palestinian representatives. One of the only non-Palestinian voices heard has been that of Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian doctor who entered Gaza on December 31 along with his colleague Erik Fosse ostensibly to provide medical assistance to Palestinians at Shifa Hospital. They have become media stars as the [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7812547.stm"]BBC[/URL], [URL="http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/01/05/world/main4697948.shtml"]CBS[/URL], CNN, ABC, [I]Independent[/I], Sky News, and [I][URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/world/middleeast/05gaza.html?fta=y"]New York Times[/URL][/I], among others, have turned to them as independent foreign observers to provide a presumably non-partisan perspective. They have been extensively interviewed in the Norwegian as well as the world press. In fact, Gilbert appears in so many interviews that one wonders how he has the time to provide medical help, never mind "doing surgery around the clock" as he claims.

In his interviews, Gilbert decries what he claims is Israel's "all out war against civilians." Condemning Israel for "deliberately targeting the [Palestinian] population" and causing "a man-made disaster," Gilbert and Fosse claim that Israel and the UN are lying about the civilian casualty count and feed the media their own alternate statistics ( "50% of the casualties are women and children"–CBS; "children made up 25% of the deaths and 45% of the wounded"–BBC). Gilbert is even quoted by the [URL="http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=80685&sectionid=3510302"]Iranian Press TV[/URL] alleging the Israelis have used unconventional weapons against the Palestinians.

So are these Norwegians indeed non-partisan foreigners providing independent confirmation of Palestinian reports or do they have an agenda? Is Gilbert simply someone "who was allowed into Gaza last week to give emergency medical aid, and who has worked in many conflict zones," as the [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/05/world/middleeast/05gaza.html?fta=y"][I]New York Times [/I]introduces him[/URL] or someone with a partisan perspective?

Gilbert is a radical Marxist and a member of the political Red (Rodt) party, a revolutionary socialist party in Norway. He has been a pro-Palestinian activist since the 1970's and travelled to Lebanon in support of the Palestinians during the first Lebanon war in 1982. He has long been a vocal opponent of Israel and the U.S. Gilbert has [URL="http://www.dagbladet.no/tekstarkiv/artikkel.php?id=5001000071520&tag=item&words=Lite%3Bmads%3Bgilbert"]acknowledged[/URL] that he cannot separate politics from medicine, stating, "there is little in medicine that is not politics." He even [URL="http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article1503616.ece"]criticizes[/URL] the group Doctors Without Borders for providing medical assistance to both sides in a conflict instead of taking a strong stance and supporting only one party. In a 2006 article in [I][URL="http://www.nordlys.no/debatt/ytring/article2371823.ece"]Nordlys[/URL],[/I] journalist Ivan Kristoffersen lamented the fact that Gilbert allows his humanitarian efforts to be politicized by his radical agenda.

[B]The[/B] [B]extent of Gilbert's political agenda and animus toward Israel and the U.S. is best evidenced by his radical support for the 9/11 terrorist attacks against the U.S. [/B]

In an interview with the Norwegian daily, [I][URL="http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2001/09/30/284907.html"]Dagbladet[/URL][/I], shortly after the attacks, Gilbert stated: [SIZE=+0][FONT=Arial] [INDENT][SIZE=2]The attack on New York was not surprising, after the policy that has led the West in recent decades. I am upset over the terrorist attack, but am equally upset over the suffering which the United States has created. It is in this context that the 5000 dead people must be seen. If the U.S. government has a legitimate right to bomb and kill civilians in Iraq, then there is also a moral right to attack the United States with the weapons they had to create. Dead civilians are the same whether they are Americans, Palestinians or Iraqis. [/SIZE] [/INDENT][/FONT][/SIZE] [FONT=Arial][FONT=Arial]When asked by [I]Dagbladet i[/I]f he supported the terrorist attack on the U.S., he replied: [INDENT][FONT=Arial]Terror is a bad weapon, but the answer is yes, within the context I have mentioned. (Sept. 30, 2001)[/FONT] [/INDENT]Fosse worked as a doctor for the Palestine Committee in Lebanon in the 1970's. He now leads NORWAC, the Norwegian Aid Committee. According to [I][URL="http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/uriks/midtosten/article2851139.ece"]Aftenposten[/URL][/I], Fosse's passion to work on behalf of Palestinians was sparked by his time in Lebanon.

According to [I][URL="http://www.vg.no/nyheter/utenriks/midtosten/artikkel.php?artid=535534"]Verdens Gang[/URL][/I], the largest Norwegian daily, Gilbert and Fosse's current trip to Gaza is funded by the Norwegian foreign ministry. Given the partisan — and in Gilbert's case, radical — perspective they represent, Fosse's and Gilbert's testimony must be weighed with extreme caution.

[/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial][URL="http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=2&x_outlet=35&x_article=1580"]Source[/URL][/FONT] [/quote]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Let take a minute or 10 out of our day to actually see who Hamas are and how they treat Gazans.

[youtube]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=I1M4eH9Kk7I[/youtube]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

so are you basically saying that Israel can kill children because Hamas did?

Showing clips from 9/11 isn't right IMO either. Just looks like a jewish propaganda film IMO. So nobody feels bad about killing kids.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;695583]so are you basically saying that Israel can kill children because Hamas did?[/quote]

Er, where have I said that?

I think you find littered throughout my posts my statement that one death is one too many.

I do however think there is a clear difference between deliberately targeting children and civilians and deliberately using children and civilians as human shields.

Some more reading for y'all. [quote] [B][SIZE=3][URL="http://www.yourish.com/2009/01/08/5971"]Hamas targets schools, world is blind, deaf, and dumb on topic[/URL][/SIZE][/B]

     First, I researched the grad rocket. It is [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BM-21"]accurate[/URL]. It can be [URL="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/russia/bm-21.htm"]targeted[/URL].

Then, I checked on Google maps to see how easy it is to map out a school in Israel. Satellite view. No problem.

Then I checked reports of how many kindergartens and schools have been hit by grad rockets. [URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3652872,00.html"]One[/URL].[INDENT]Earlier Thursday, a Grad rocket hit a school in Ashkelon. The rocket exploded at the school’s gym, which stood empty at the time of the attack. The building sustained damages but no one was injured. [/INDENT][URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3650550,00.html"]Two[/URL].[INDENT]Rocket fire continues: A Grad rocket hit an empty kindergarten in the port city of Ashdod on Monday afternoon. An air raid siren sounded in Ashdod and Ashkelon at around 3:20 pm. Several people suffered shock, but there were no injuries. The place was heavily damaged. [/INDENT][URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3647569,00.html"]Three[/URL].[INDENT]Beersheba joined the list of rocket-stricken communities Tuesday evening as an air raid siren sounded across the southern city, followed by several explosions. A Grad missile landed in an empty kindergarten in the city, causing damage. Thirty-four people were treated for shock at the Soroka Medical Center in Beersheba. [/INDENT][URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3514030,00.html"]Four.[/URL] (March 2008 ) [INDENT]Another rocket landed near a kindergarten in the city, where dozens of children were beginning their day. As the nursery teachers wiped their tears, they told Ynet that the Color Red alert system was not heard in the kindergarten [/INDENT][URL="http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3512952,00.html"]Five.[/URL] (February 2008 ) [INDENT]On Thursday a total of 10 rockets hit the beachside city of Ashkelon leaving growing anxiety in their wake. Two long-range Grad rockets fired from the northern Strip hit the city that was previously considered out-of-range of the rockets. One of the rockets landed near a school in the center of town. A 17-year-old girl suffered light shrapnel wounds in the latest attack and several other people suffered from anxiety. [/INDENT]I’m sure there are more. That’s a cursory first check.

Hamas deliberately targets Israeli schools. Palestinian terrorists deliberately time their attacks for when children are walking to or from school. There has never been an outcry from any organization that normal protests human rights violations. There have been no accusations of war crimes by Hamas. There has been, in fact, utter silence from the usual suspects. Israel schools are being targeted, and yet, that gets shrugged off by everyone but Israelis.

Compare that to the world outcry of the UN school in Jabalya that got hit after [URL="http://www.yourish.com/2009/01/07/5957"]terrorists used it as cover[/URL] to fire mortars at IDF troops.

No, the world ignores Palestinian war crimes on a regular basis, and denies that they occur, or excuses them as the result of “occupation.” Or in [URL="http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/01/08/israel.gaza/index.html"]revenge for Israel bombing Palestinian smuggling tunnels[/URL].

What time is it, kiddies? That’s right. It’s Israeli Double Standard Time, which only occurs on days that end with a “y.”

[/quote] [quote][URL="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053233.html"][B][SIZE=3]IDF shell kills 30 in Gaza UN school; Israel mulls appeal over Hamas fire from UN facilities [/SIZE][/B][/URL]

[B]Israel is considering submitting a complaint to the United Nations of Hamas' use of the world body's facilities for terror purposes, after 30 people were killed when an Israeli army artillery shell struck a UN school in Gaza. Israeli troops say that they were fired on from the building.

The Israel Defense Forces soldiers attacked the [URL="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1053138.html"][COLOR=blue][U]UN-run girl's school[/U][/COLOR][/URL] near the Jabalya refugee camp in self-defense, saying militants barricaded inside began firing mortar rounds at them.

"Initial checks ... show that from inside the school mortars were fired at Israeli forces," an IDF spokesman said. "In response, the forces fired a number of mortar rounds into the area."[/B]

[SIZE=2]The army also said that the bodies of Hamas militants were found inside the school following the attack. Troops identified two of the casualties at the site as Imad and Hassan Abu Askhar, who served as heads of the Hamas mortar units in Gaza.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, Defense Minister Ehud Barak and Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni met Tuesday evening to discuss how the incident at the Jabalya school would be investigated.

"Hamas is making every effort to cover up the details of the incident," defense establishment officials said.

A spokesman of the Israeli Embassy in the U.S. said that it was clear that the site was not operating as a school at the time of the attack.

Hamas has once again cynically chosen to use civilian sites from which to operate, thus endangering the safety of innocent civilians," he said.

"This is not the first time that Hamas has fired mortars and rockets from schools, which deliberately uses civilians as human shields in their acts of terror," he added, citing footage from an unmanned plane showing rockets and mortars being fired from the yard of an UNRWA school.

Meanwhile, the UNRWA is demanding an independent investigation and the indictment of anyone found to have violated international law.

The attack brought the Palestinian death toll to nearly 600 in Israel's 11-day offensive on the Hamas-ruled coastal territory.

Also on Tuesday, Israel Air Force warplanes struck a building in Gaza in which the head of Hamas' rocket division was staying. It was not immediately clear whether Ayman Sayam was hit in the attack, which occurred in the Jabalya refugee camp in the northern Gaza Strip. [/SIZE]
[/quote]So, heres an interesting question or two - if Israel fired a couple of shells into the school compound, what made it light up the sky like the 4th of July? How many weapons were being stored in this UNWRA school that ensured that 30 people were killed? And why did Hamas round up children and take them into the school prior to firing rounds at Israel? And why do UNWRA continue to allow their premise to be used by Hamas as weapon storage facilities?

These questions are not mine alone - they are serious questions which Hamas and UNWRA have as yet not answered. but maybe a partial answer can be found in how Hamas views Gazans - as fodder for Israeli shells.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

And whilst on the subject, lets pay careful attention to words from a Hamas leader that were said a few days ago -

[quote]A HAMAS leader has warned that Islamists would kill Jewish children anywhere in the world in revenge for Israel's devastating assault.

“They have legitimised the murder of their own children by killing the children of Palestine,” Mahmoud Zahar said in a televised broadcast recorded at a secret location.

“They have legitimised the killing of their people all over the world by killing our people.”

Mr Zahar made his first appearance since Israel launched its offensive.

Dressed in a dark suit, he declared: “Victory is coming, God willing.”

[URL="http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,24880510-5005361,00.html"]Source[/URL][/quote]So, simply put, Zahar is saying that Hamas will target Jewish children, not Israeli kids, anywhere in the world.

So, if you're Jewish and live in Argentina, or America, or France, or Germany, or Australia, or Russia, or Mexico, or South Africa, or the UK, well anywhere, you're kids are fair game!

Hamas intentionally go out of their way to kill Israeli civilians in Israel and now they are threatening Jewish children around the globe.

But hey, they're brave freedom fighters right!

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hey i didn't say they are freedom fighters at all. I just hope it stops before Iran gets into the mix.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

you should all make the effort to watch the documentary Occupation101. its definitely more relevant now than ever.

[url]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0807956/[/url]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Tnx for the info Dave... Yes, 48 not 67.

Btw, those bombs we see the Israeli drop on Gaza, are they Phosphoric or not? Half the world says yes, the other says no... It seems it was used by the US in Iraq...

This conflict is also being discussed on facebook, a lot, groups etc... Not getting involved there, I discuss this only here on [MS].

I got this on my PM, an Israeli woman replied to a Lebanese guy, and the replied was mailed to several users:

(I replaced her name with "XYZ" in the post)

[quote]i sent a msg to an israelian girl asking her about her opinion about what's going on in ghaza .. u wont belive what she said : this is what she wrote on my wall :

XYZ wrote at 11:53am

Honestly I'm glad Israel is finally doing something about this. For 8 years Gaza has been throwing an average of 4 Qazams a day at us, and in the past 10 days it has been 70 Qasams a day at many cities. We have given them more than ENOUGH time to stop it, and they didn't. Everything has a limit, and Gaza has passed it LONG AGO. When Gaza asked ... Read MoreEgypt for help, they told them that Gaza brought this on themselves, and that they have to deal with it alone. I have to remind you we have nothing against Gaza's people, but against the Hamas. The Hamas gets into civilian's houses and bombs us from there, and that's why civilian cassualties happen - because they let Hamas into their houses. It's a shame they die, but again - they brought it on themselves. If you think these people are innocent, it's a shame but I have to disagree with you. It is sad that children and women are dying, but most of it is just for the media.

and this is onther one in my inbox :

I answered to your wall, but I'd like to add that the Hamas uses these pictures that are being published to pretend they are the victims, but I remind you they brought this on themselves. They have been bombing Israel for 8 years, and now that we respond they are crying to the UN, Egypt, and everyone they can. They have passed the limits, and they have to deal with it now. As I told you, it's sad that women and children are dying because it's not their fault, but if they let the Hamas into their houses to kill OUR women and children, they have to face the consequences. By the way, Israel used to send food and medicine into Gaza, as well as supply water and electricity... Only that the Hamas took it all to themselves and gave nothing to the people who were supposed to get it. [/quote]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Shiva;695974] Btw, those bombs we see the Israeli dorp on Gaza on Gaza, are they Phosphoric or not? Half the world says tes, the other says no... It seems it was used by the US in Iraq...[/quote]

Hi Shiva, hope you're having a good day.

I'm no military man, but if you believe everything you read about the sort of weapons Israel is meant to have . . . . .

But in relation to whether Israel is using Phosphorus weapons or not, aside from the fact that this 'rumor' started via PressTV I very much doubt it to be true. . . that said, I did find this for you.

[quote] [URL="http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/"][B]Another Leftist/Islamist Lie Up In Smoke[/B][/URL]

It doesn't seem that we can have a conflict in the Middle East without pro-terrorist Islamists and Leftists in the world declaring that white phosphorus (WP) is a chemical weapon, and that the military force using WP is guilty of a "war crime" or "atrocity" for firing white phosphorus shells—never mind that that Islamist force targets civilians, uses their own population as human shields, and commits rape and torture with barbaric impunity to those they suppress.

Such apologist claims, almost without exception, based upon either radical politics, gross ignorance, or a combination of the two. In either event, these shrill claims are decidedly false.

A typical case of ignorance is the one I cited [URL="http://confederateyankee.mu.nu/archives/280659.php"]several days ago[/URL] in the Pacific Free Press where the headline called the use of White Phosphorus by Israeli forces in Gaza the " War Crime du Jour."

Likewise, "Cernig," posting at Crooks & Liars, posted an equally inflammatory, fact-free and generally [URL="http://crooksandliars.com/node/25046"]unhinged rant[/URL] on the subject:[INDENT] And there are good reasons to believe that the IDF is simply lying as part of a propaganda war it admits has been eight months in the planning: the use of indiscriminate white phosphorus airbursts, in contravention of international law as it is understood everywhere except the US and Israel (the 1980 Protocol III to the Convention on Conventional Weapons containsa blanket restriction on dropping incendiary weapons from the air against military objectives "located within a concentration of civilians"); the way in which the IDF is throwing explosives around so freely that almost as many of its people have been killed by its own "errant' tank shells as by enemy action. [/INDENT]Like most Leftists, Cernig is quick to pick and choose his atrocities of choice, completely ignoring that Hamas purposefully targeted Israeli civilians with thousands of rockets and mortar shells, in order for him to attack Israel by purposefully (and ignorantly) misconstruing what the laws of land warfare are, and what white phosphorus munitions are being used, and how.

[B]The Israelis are not firing White Phosphorus incendiary weapons into Gaza.[/B]

[URL="http://news.yahoo.com/nphotos/slideshow/photo//090107/photos_ts/2009_01_05t071611_450x304_us_palestinians_israel/"]This photo[/URL] from Gil Cohen Magen two days ago shows Israeli 155mm M825A1 white phosphorus shells, with "M825A1" written clearly on the sides. I've cropping the image to focus on the M825A1 shells.

[CENTER] [IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3463/3177318052_02a2ea36be_o.jpg[/IMG] [/CENTER] [B] Update:[/B] A higher-resolution crop showing the shell markings more clearly.

[CENTER] [IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3114/3179023390_31f6665a5a_o.jpg[/IMG] [/CENTER]

Likewise, [URL="http://www.daylife.com/photo/03gj1nM3C97LJ/gaza"]this photo[/URL] posted today shows more Israeli 155mm M825A1 shells near a self-propelled gun.

[CENTER] [IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3077/3177318046_66946e3248_o.jpg[/IMG] [/CENTER]

Clearly, Israeli forces are using 155mm M825A1 white phosphorus shells in Gaza. But the white phosphorus shells they are using in Gaza [I]are not incendiaries[/I], and they are not being used in any way that can possibly be misconstrued as illegal.

Why?

[B]Because the M825A1 is a smoke round[/B].

From [URL="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/m825.htm"]Global Security[/URL]:[INDENT] The M825 is a 155mm Smoke projectile used to provide screening or marking smoke. It is a separate loading munition using a hollow forged steel shell. The shape is ogival with a boat tail for aerodynamic efficiency and a welded steel baseplate. Close to the base is a gilding metal drive band protected by a grommet until just before loading. The M825 White Phosphorus (Felt-Wedge) is a 155mm base ejection projectile designed to produce a smoke screen on the ground for a duration of 5 to 15 minutes. It consists of two major components, the projectile carrier, and the payload. The projectile carrier delivers the payload to the target. The payload consists of 116 WP-saturated felt wedges.After ejection, the WP felt wedges fall to ground in a elliptical pattern. Each wedge will then becomes a source of smoke. The projectile is ballistically similar to the M483A1 DPICM family of projectiles.

Smoke ammunition is a limited asset. Since ammunition requirements vary with each mission, observers should know the amount and types of smoke ammunition available and how many minutes of coverage it can provide. Extensive, planned smoke employment should be coordinated early with firing units to allow for redistribution or requisition of ammunition.

[/INDENT]That's the short version.

The full article goes into far more detail about the nuance about the difference between the use of "quick smoke" and "immediate smoke" for battlefield missions, but one thing is painfully obvious—these are artillery shells and they contain white phosphorus, but they are [I]not[/I] incendiary weapons, and they are not, by any remote measure, illegal to use in Gaza or anywhere else. They are smoke shells, used to create smoke screens. The kind of white phosphorus artillery shells used as incendiary munitions are those called burster-type white phosphorus, and Global Security explains the difference between the incendiary and smoke rounds [URL="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/smoke.htm"]in sufficient detail[/URL] .

The airburst Cernig and other terrorist apologists laments as an illegal attack is instead how a smokescreen is created to [I]protect[/I] advancing soldiers. It is decidedly not an incendiary weapon, is decidedly not illegal, [URL="http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm"]violating no laws or conventions[/URL].

Make no mistake—these apologists, Islamists and Leftists alike, are lying, pro-terror shills.[/quote]

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;695985]Hi Shiva, hope you're having a good day.

I'm no military man, but if you believe everything you read about the sort of weapons Israel is meant to have . . . . .

But in relation to whether Israel is using Phosphorus weapons or not, aside from the fact that this 'rumor' started via PressTV I very much doubt it to be true. . . that said, I did find this for you.[/quote]

Tnx...

and tnx for including the short version of the doc as well... :D

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

All I can say is what's happening in Gaza is pretty horrible!!! Apparently Israel now admits that the boming of the UN school was a mistake and the photos of militants firing from the school was from 2007? I read that in Haaretz today...can anyone confirm from other news sources. Also, a UN worker was shot getting supplies, so the UN is no longer going to be providing aid? If this is true, then those soldiers HAVE to be brought to justice.

At the same time, Hamas' leadership (sitting safe and sound in Lebanon, mind you) is saying the truce does not meet their demands or that of the Palestinian people??? WTF!!! Get your ass over to Gaza if you're going to be making statements on behalf of the Gazans! The nerve of hese b******ds...firing from civilian areas and using civilians as cover!

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

The Hamas spokesman speaks out from Lebanon, but the ones on the move are suspected to be Hamas-Syria (fingers point at them for firing rockets from Lebanon). Cant really know...what a mess!

(maybe it is pretty much the same...)

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=raver_mania;696007]All I can say is what's happening in Gaza is pretty horrible!!! Apparently Israel now admits that the boming of the UN school was a mistake and the photos of militants firing from the school was from 2007? I read that in Haaretz today...can anyone confirm from other news sources. Also, a UN worker was shot getting supplies, so the UN is no longer going to be providing aid? If this is true, then those soldiers HAVE to be brought to justice.

At the same time, Hamas' leadership (sitting safe and sound in Lebanon, mind you) is saying the truce does not meet their demands or that of the Palestinian people??? WTF!!! Get your ass over to Gaza if you're going to be making statements on behalf of the Gazans! The nerve of hese b******ds...firing from civilian areas and using civilians as cover![/quote]

Hi Raver welcome to the debate, where rational mind prevail!

First off the 'film' released of firing from schools was never listed as this incident, but was evidence of previous behaviour - should it have be re-released now, not really, it just confused history (as in last year) with now.

There is also some confusing as to who shot the aid worker, i think i have posted something here already (if not I will dig something out for you).

The problem we have with news from this conflict is that in its wisdom (not) my government has decided to not allow reporters into Gaza - so the only news sources we are getting are the media that is already there - PressTV (Iranian) mainly, and some local stringers for some the news agencies.

What I can tell you though is that during the agreed three hour lull in violence today, a time set apart to enable aid to cross over - at the Kerem Shalom crossing, Hamas fired mortars at the crossing therefore ensuring that we closed it. It would seem to Hamas that stopping aid getting to needy Gazans is as important as using gazans as human shields.

Like their esteemed colleague from Hizbollah, it would seem that Hamas's leadership prefers to spend their time underground - no doubt they have enough supplies to last them - which is more than can be said about the Gazans, apparently.

I particularly like the fact that Mashaal (not sure on spelling), who is deemed the leader of political Hamas still lives in Syria - considering Gaza has been an Israeli free zone since 05, I guess he prefers the comfort of Damascus to the self inflicted hell hole of Gaza.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

What are you doing to prepare for the invasion?

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;696018] I particularly like the fact that Mashaal (not sure on spelling), who is deemed the leader of political Hamas still lives in Syria - considering Gaza has been an Israeli free zone since 05, I guess he prefers the comfort of Damascus to the self inflicted hell hole of Gaza.[/quote]

its easier to live in comfort and wealth provided by anti jew sympathizers while keeping gaza down in an effort to further his political and "i follow psycho islam" religious goals.. this way, he still drinks the kool aid while telling gazans isreal prevents them from having it when all the while, its his buddies giving the isrealis a reason to close the border.

again gazans. look at west bank.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Disasters start to unveil since journalists are now able to enter the Gaza strip.

The Israeli leaders that are involved in this war should be taken to the international court and judged for crimes against humanity.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^^ So do palestinian leaders and other political ally's that collaborate with the terrorists.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Who are the terrorists ????????????????

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=DIDI;701474]Who are the terrorists ????????????????[/quote] Really, both sides are pretty bad.

Do you really think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys? They send women and children with bombs strapped to them to die, they use their own civilians as shields for themselves, and they fire rockets into Israel on a regular basis. Israel, for its part, probably overreacts and kills indiscriminately in retaliation, pushes beyond their original boundaries, and too often treats Palestinians like inferior subhumans.

So both sides are terrorists against each other for years. That's why the Middle East pretty much has earned the distinction of being the world's biggest clusterfuck, which no one can resolve.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ +1

Both sides are have messed up on the civilian populations. But I will never understand this excessive use of force from the IDF, the numbers talk enough.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[QUOTE=Miroslav;701479]Really, both sides are pretty bad.

Do you really think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys? They send women and children with bombs strapped to them to die, they use their own civilians as shields for themselves, and they fire rockets into Israel on a regular basis. Israel, for its part, probably overreacts and kills indiscriminately in retaliation, pushes beyond their original boundaries, and too often treats Palestinians like inferior subhumans.

So both sides are terrorists against each other for years. That's why the Middle East pretty much has earned the distinction of being the world's biggest clusterfuck, which no one can resolve.[/QUOTE] I don't think Hamas are a bunch of nice guys but the actions of Israel make them look like choir boys.

Hamas stopped the suicide bombings years ago . You only have the Israeli view that they used their own as shields , in fact it is now coming out the the Israelis were using palestinian civilians as human shields.

Those pathetic rockets [I find the word "targeted" used in conjunction with these rockets pretty absurd] which for the most part Hamas stopped for a considerable time , but Israel didn't honour it's part of the bargain.

Israel DEFINITELY overreacts , they have no respect for any other authority bar their own. They have committed horrendous war crimes.

Israel also supported Hamas initially as a weapon to over throw the PLO . Whether we like it or not Hamas was DEMOCRATICALLY elected.

The sheer weight of the actual numbers is overwhelming. They killed !00 times the number of people in this one exercise than Hamas has killed in years. Israel actually killed more of it's own than Hamas or any Palestinian did in this.

I actually wonder why Israel do it because this sort of exercise can only breed a whole new generation of hatred. Definitely won't help Israel's stated aims.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^ +1