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IDF invade Gaza Strip

127 durable postsStarted 2009-01-03Latest 2009-02-06
#1143074Post 41 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

When UNRWA permit their premises and equipment to be used as launch sites for Hamas's genocidal activities against Israel. . . . .

Fuck it Shiva, i'm done explaining - its about time ALL the Arab nations who are sitting on the side lines hoping that Hamas and their Iranian sponsors get a good seeing too by Israel actually got of the fucking fence,

UNRWA continues to allow Hamas to hide amongst its infrastructure.

When you allow UNRWA premises to be used as launch sites dont start complaining when they are fucking hit.

#1143078Post 42 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694307]When UNRWA permit their premises and equipment to be used as launch sites for Hamas's genocidal activities against Israel. . . . .

Fuck it Shiva, i'm done explaining - its about time ALL the Arab nations who are sitting on the side lines hoping that Hamas and their Iranian sponsors get a good seeing too by Israel actually got of the fucking fence,

UNRWA continues to allow Hamas to hide amongst its infrastructure.

When you allow UNRWA premises to be used as launch sites dont start complaining when they are fucking hit.[/quote]

You mean that the UNITED NATIONS is conspiring with Hamas, helping them hide weapons or give them some launch pads? The U.N.....?! :shock:

#1143087Post 43 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Shiva;694311]You mean that the UNITED NATIONS is conspiring with Hamas, helping them hide weapons or give them some launch pads? The U.N.....?! :shock:[/quote]

Oh of course not - like UN ambulances have never been used to ferry terrorists around in the hope that Israel doesn't hit them?

Seriously Shiva, I really thought better of you - would you like me to re-produce all the material showing how in both Lebanon and Gaza the UN has enabled both Hizbollah and Hamas?

How about in your own country, where the UN and international forces have turned a blind eye to Hizbollah re-arming themselves?

#1143104Post 44 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694323]Oh of course not - like UN ambulances have never been used to ferry terrorists around in the hope that Israel doesn't hit them?

Seriously Shiva, I really thought better of you - would you like me to re-produce all the material showing how in both Lebanon and Gaza the UN has enabled both Hizbollah and Hamas?

How about in your own country, where the UN and international forces have turned a blind eye to Hizbollah re-arming themselves?[/quote]

Well David, If you thought better of me and now you changed ur mind coz I am opposing a massacre of innocent human lives, then it is up to you... As far as I am concern, I am not mad at you or think better/worse about you as David, its not personal here... Although I believe that every people has the right to exist and live in peace and security, I do not approve of massacres in any form.

In this thread, I hope I am dealing with moderate Dave and not an extremist Dave....this will show later on in the discussion.

Now concerning the disarmament of Hizballah: Let me tell you this bluntly: Hisballah is an EFFECT, and the CAUSE is the occupation of Lebanese territories by Israel.

Again, every people or nation is ENTITLED to defend itself against occupation, as long as 1 cm of the territory is occupied by any foreign army, any country would use any form of resistance it has in order to free itself! Lebanese resistance, in many forms, fought the Syrian occupation, as well as Israeli occupation!

Now Syria is out, but Israel is still in! Both countries should back off and leave Lebanon ALONE!

[B]Israel would eliminate the reason of hizballah to exist, as a military force, the SECOND Israel withdraws from the Lebanese lands it occupies. Hizballah is not the IRA.[/B]

Well now that you ask me personally, I am gona answer to you: Yes, I believe Hizballah should be disarmed, BUT WITHIN AN INTER-LEBANESE NATIONAL CONSCENT in order to free Lebanon from weapons and make it a pacific country, and ONLY!

But in NO CASE, an occupier can ask for a resistance to be disarmed. So in this case, as long as the IDF occupies Lebanese lands it cannot expect ANYONE from disarming its resistance. And this is simply why the UN, the Europeans AND the US cannot disarm the local resistance: [U][B] SELF-DEFENSE UNDER OCCUPATION IS A GIVEN & UNIVERSAL RIGHT[/B][/U]

#1143114Post 45 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Now my turn to ask you a question:

How about the natural resources Israel has been stealing from Lebanon since decades now, such as the precious water, by diverting Lebanese rivers towards Israel?

Lebanon has PLENTY of water, it is the only country in the middle east to has snow, and we both know how important it is within the middle eastern context. Water created wars in the region: it can help economies like it can destroy them.

And Israel has been stealing it since years now and it still doing it, as per "normal thing" so to speak.... Israel should pay it for water if it wants some, just like Europe pays the natural gaz it imports from Russia, instead of invading countries and stealing their natural resources!

No Dave, I am sorry, I say what is right even if that disappoints you! Yes the Israeli cause (security & peace, reason to exist etc etc..) and all that, I agree... but hey when it is too much, it is too much!

#1143116Post 46 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This is a great watch to further understand the situation. It's called Peace, Propaganda and the promised land

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&ei=ebJjSaWcOISM-QG0zbjQDg&q=israel+palestine[/gvideo]

You can see the propaganda live right now. Go to cnn.com and you will see that Israel "responded to mortar attacks from the school" and then go to raw story and it says "Israel bombed UN school killing 40"

#1143125Post 47 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;694356] You can see the propaganda live right now. Go to cnn.com and you will see that Israel "responded to mortar attacks from the school" and then go to raw story and it says "Israel bombed UN school killing 40"[/quote] so how do you know which if either version is "real" and which is propaganda?

#1143126Post 48 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva

Your definition of an extremist Israeli - someone who fights backs.

Jeez louise, contrary to what you might think, i have always, and always will support a two state solution, i do not agree with everything my government does - either in my name or not - i pushed for dialogue with fatah in the 1980's and was arrested for and spent time in military prison for refusing to serve in the territiories - don't you fucking dare call me an extremist.

I'm not sorry that I support my government against the homicidal tendancies of Hamas and their string pullers in Iran.

As for Hizbollah cause and effect - listen very carefully you European import - bullshit. According the UN Israel does not, i repeat, does not, occupy any part of Lebanon. The sheba farms, according to the UN belong to Syria, if anyone.

I know it sucks that we're not prepared to piss off but fucking deal with it.

If the arabs in the middle east spent less time obsessing about Israel and more time in educating their people you wouldn't fucking have problems with extremists - but oh no, much better keeping the wealth amongst the few whilst your masses fucking starve.

And then you fucking have the audacity to blame Israel for every fucking little thing.

Grow up

#1143127Post 49 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Miroslav;694366]so how do you know which if either version is "real" and which is propaganda?[/quote]

Miroslav

If Israel, with all its capabilities, wanted to willy nilly slaughter innocent civilians, the death count would be much higher than it is.

If Israel hit a school, specifically a UN establishment, then I would take a guess and say that it was 95% certain that rockets were being fired from there - experience tells us so.

#1143131Post 50 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

did u watch the documentary yet? I didn't post it so I could explain it to all of you.

#1143133Post 51 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694368]Miroslav

If Israel, with all its capabilities, wanted to willy nilly slaughter innocent civilians, the death count would be much higher than it is.

If Israel hit a school, specifically a UN establishment, then I would take a guess and say that it was 95% certain that rockets were being fired from there - experience tells us so.[/quote] I don't dispute your explanation, I certainly have no information to lead me to a different conclusion. It was more of a general rhetorical question to runningman.

#1143134Post 52 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

just watch the documentary. yes it is long but you can't explain this mess in 10 mins.

It is made by Jewish people

#1143136Post 53 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

^^ maybe I will when I have time later. I doubt it will give me the answer, though, because the whole point is that there isn't ever a clear answer as to what is propaganda and what is "real". Most everything has a spin, even that video.

#1143138Post 54 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

well you sure do have to have spin when you kill 40 kids. what ever happened to protecting children? Even if their parents are in the wrong.

#1143142Post 55 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694368]Miroslav

If Israel, with all its capabilities, wanted to willy nilly slaughter innocent civilians, the death count would be much higher than it is.

If Israel hit a school, specifically a UN establishment, then I would take a guess and say that it was 95% certain that rockets were being fired from there - experience tells us so.[/quote]

What are you trying to convince us here David?

Since your planes dropped leaflefts warning everyone to get out of their homes or they will get killed because their houses will be bombed ... where would the inoccent civilians flee?

Their home has been converted to a prison with 1.5 milion people being trapped behind the Israeli fence dotted with machine gun posts and watchtowers. Israel, with all its capabilities and its super Inteligence, should know that those places are being used as camps for women and children!

The UN said the school in Jabaliya was clearly marked, with a UN flag and its location had been reported to Israeli authorities.Under international law, installations such as schools, health centres and UN facilities should be protected from attack. Well before the current fighting, the UN had given to the Israeli authorities the GPS co-ordinates of all its installations in Gaza. :evil:

#1143145Post 56 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Well... this reaction of yours was kinda expected Dave.

I didn't call you ANYTHING, I just said earlier while reading your responses to me and other users, that I hope I am not dealing with an extremist, and that this would appear later. This is not calling you an extremist, on the contrary is hoping to be able to exchange points of voews, and one more reason for that is that we both stand on the other side of the border.

You call me names coz I am sharing my straight points, as a European export you say?

Many analysts living abroad, in the US or Europe, that have never even came close to the middle-east, could teach you, as Israeli, the strory of Israel from its roots: it is more about knowledge than about shooting people. The fact that you served in the IDF deosn't make you superior or special, all isrealis are required to serve 3 yrs...

But if you say you don't agree with your Gov etc etc.. why are you starting to loose it and call me names simply coz I am saying facts w/ my point of view? You just said that your gov is not always correct, and true coz there is NO PERFECT GOV on this planet, can't satify everybody in society.

All people and democracies make mistakes, especially the young ones. But the important is to learn from the mistakes... Israel is a very young democracy and whether you like it or not, it has done and is doing many mistakes, just like all the rest of the democracies.

If you read well my comments, you will notice that I have criticized LOTS of things, not only in Israel but in Lebanon as well, from a LEBANESE AND EUROPEAN standpoint. And yet, you took it at me although we are basically in agreement that "we don't agree" with your gov on killing people...

So Mr. export, soldier or no soldier, busted or no busted, bottom line: There is a massacre going on and last time I checked the blood was on IDF's hands, the counter of civilian casualties is rising by the minute!

(and for the second time I ask you, plz lets try to keep a clean language, thank you)

#1143149Post 57 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

everyone needs to chill out here.

facts are facts

day 1 - hamas sends rockets day 2 - isreal overreacts again day 3 - palestine plays poor me scenario that they are so good at doing day 4 - isreal says we dont care, people argue.

rinse, recycle and repeat. it aint gonna end until hamas stop and accepts isreal and the next day isreal starts HELPING gaza rebuild, in every facet from construction, to medical to schooling, and furthermore, gazans, notably the sicko muslim fanatics there, accept the olive branch.

west bank did. working pretty well for them. best economy in a decade, work with isreal, peaceful, medical care up, religious freedoms enjoyed, etc.

note to hamas, look at west bank, give up your silly mohommed nonsense for just a little while, and put religion on the back burner. its all bullshit anyway.

#1143150Post 58 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

in b4 statistics of palestinian suicide bombers

#1143152Post 59 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

WATCH THE VIDEO EVERYONE BEFORE MAKING A COMMENT IN THIS SECTION or you will sound like you don't have a clue of what is going on.

Day 5- Nuclear world war if it doesn't stop

Best economy ever (60% laid off) ya right. Facts can be manipulated.

now look at this. Israels image is being hurt by bombing Gaza and now they are saying everyone is anti-semetic. I couldn't have posted that video at a better time.

[URL]http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Europe_fears_spike_in_anti_Semitism_01062009.html[/URL]

This is my problem with Israel. The propaganda is second to none. Whenever someone talks bad about Israel that means we are going to see the next holocaust. So much Bullshit. I mean when Canada went into Afghanistan I said bad things about my own country. Doesn't mean I hate canada and want to see canadians killed.

#1143155Post 60 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

i didnt say ever. i said in a decade. and i watched the first half hour, im at work, i cant watch it all. i get the point.

but i also get the point that there is a group of people who do as much localized propoganda as isreal, and who were put into power by a public vote, and these people condone the deaths of isreal and continue to deny its existence, and ignore all brokered peace treaties. how long do you let your neighbors son throw stones at your house before you walk over and regulate.

both are at fault, both need to do some major things.

hamas, STOP FIRING MISSLES isreal, CHILL OUT.

#1143157Post 61 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

ok sorry. I was just sayin

#1143160Post 62 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;694397]this is my problem with israel. The propaganda is second to none. Whenever someone talks bad about israel that means we are going to see the next holocaust.[/quote]

+1

Earlier I gave an example about the I.A.F. violating the Lebanese airspace almost everyday. Even today they did it! Their warplanes flew over South Lebanon and the Bekaa....Israel is provoking hizballah...in the middle of the Gaza war! And again, just like you asked before how come the UN is not disarming hizballah, and I explained. Now I ask you how come the UN doesnt shoot the Israeli plane down when it crosses the border, since it is there to stop any aggression?

#1143173Post 63 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

i googled "gaza isreal solution" and google kicked me back one thing. an image

[IMG]http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1241/1418337912_5e83b107e5.jpg?v=0[/IMG]

#1143180Post 64 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694367]As for Hizbollah cause and effect - listen very carefully you European import - bullshit. According the UN Israel does not, i repeat, does not, occupy any part of Lebanon. The sheba farms, according to the UN belong to Syria, if anyone.[/quote]

^ you think you know everything, right? The shebaa (spelled with 2 a's) farms is a Lebanese territory; It is a point of conflict between Lebanon & Syria coz many adjustments have to be done concerning the borders between the 2 countries: Syria has already confirmed that the Shebaa farms IS Lebanese territory and it will ratify it at the UN very soon. It is a historic issue of border delimitation since the independence of Lebanon and the end of colonization... But I guess you already knew that, Mr Export ;)

And even more ridiculous: The Shebaa farms is big as a small neighborhood in New York City or L.A.

#1143191Post 65 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

Shiva

First off Sheba is a transliteration. . . .

Secondly, at this moment in time, according to the UN, that land mass is in dispute between Israel and Syria - fact.

Therefore the purpose of Hizbollah is what exactly? And why have the UN and Lebanese refused, thats right, refused to disarm Hizbolla and continue to allow Iran to arm them through Syria?

I'm no expert, but I'm also not an idiot - I tend to only engage in what I know and not what I think I know - so wanna tell me again how Sheba belongs to Lebanon and how big nasty Israel is provoking Hizbollah, who continue to be in contravention to UNSCR 1771 with the support of your government.

#1143194Post 66 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;694356]This is a great watch to further understand the situation. It's called Peace, Propaganda and the promised land [/quote]

This film starts of giving you only a part of the picture - might I suggest that you google res 242 and see what actually it is talking about - so already one minute in and there are problems?

Israel does not have to under 242 comply until all elements of 242 are carried out. Read it, Educate yourself.

#1143197Post 67 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=ace_dl;693761]I really cannot understand why 1.5 milion people who live in the Gazza Strip have to be collctivelly punished for the actions of the militants of Hamas. The Israeli Air Strikes represent severe violations of the International Humanitarian Law and there is no way you can convince me otherwise. Certainly, the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful, but that does not give anyone the right to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Targeting civilians - ambulances,women & children,doctors,nurses etc ... is what I would call a war crime! Different reliable sources, BBC, Reuters, CNN, have been reporting and confirmed the aforementioned - that air strikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world.[/quote]

It's a warped Israeli belief, that all this will somehow bring about peace and stability between two peoples.

#1143201Post 68 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;694380]well you sure do have to have spin when you kill 40 kids. what ever happened to protecting children? Even if their parents are in the wrong.[/quote] Look, when there is war there is lots of collateral damage. That is the unfortunate, awful, and unavoidable truth.

#1143205Post 69 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This from the [URL="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=WSAW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT"]AP[/URL]

Pay attention to paragraph 2 and 3.

So Hamas using a school area as shelter to fire their rockets at Israel, knowing that Israel is firing back at ALL locations they are being fired from.

Hamas intentionally using Gazans as Human Shields - now thats a fucking war crime.

#1143210Post 70 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694460]This from the [URL="http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/M/ML_ISRAEL_PALESTINIANS?SITE=WSAW&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT"]AP[/URL]

Pay attention to paragraph 2 and 3.

So Hamas using a school area as shelter to fire their rockets at Israel, knowing that Israel is firing back at ALL locations they are being fired from.

Hamas intentionally using Gazans as Human Shields - now thats a fucking war crime.[/quote]

they always do man.

#1143218Post 71 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[QUOTE=runningman;694356]This is a great watch to further understand the situation. It's called Peace, Propaganda and the promised land

[gvideo]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6604775898578139565&ei=ebJjSaWcOISM-QG0zbjQDg&q=israel+palestine[/gvideo]

You can see the propaganda live right now. Go to cnn.com and you will see that Israel "responded to mortar attacks from the school" and then go to raw story and it says "Israel bombed UN school killing 40"[/QUOTE]Downloading to watch later . Thank you !

#1143262Post 72 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=runningman;694397]WATCH THE VIDEO EVERYONE BEFORE MAKING A COMMENT IN THIS SECTION or you will sound like you don't have a clue of what is going on.[/quote] Watched some of the video - like 15 minutes, I don't have time to stare at the whole thing. Look, no doubt some of this is true and Israelis have treated Palestinians like animals. But do you really think this video necessarily gives you a more complete "true" story than cnn.com? From what I've seen, this video looks pretty one-sided. Cnn.com may be propaganda, but why do you think this video is not propaganda?

[quote=runningman;694397]Best economy ever (60% laid off) ya right. Facts can be manipulated.[/quote] Dude. It's [I]Palestine [/I]that has the 60% unemployment. And no one ever said they had the best economy ever. Where did you hear that?? :lol: I think I know what is being manipulated here, and it's not the "facts". :p

[quote=runningman;694397] now look at this. Israels image is being hurt by bombing Gaza and now they are saying everyone is anti-semetic. I couldn't have posted that video at a better time.

[URL]http://rawstory.com/news/afp/Europe_fears_spike_in_anti_Semitism_01062009.html[/URL]

This is my problem with Israel. The propaganda is second to none. Whenever someone talks bad about Israel that means we are going to see the next holocaust. So much Bullshit. I mean when Canada went into Afghanistan I said bad things about my own country. Doesn't mean I hate canada and want to see canadians killed.[/quote] So let me get this straight: you think that the media is [I]helping[/I] Israel by printing articles about how more people in Europe [U]hate Israelis[/U] for their actions against the Palestinians? That news about more people disliking Israel somehow...[I]improves[/I] Israel's image?

#1143264Post 73 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

I never said the video was gospel I just said the video is [B]very[/B] informative about this conflict and what goes on behind the scenes especially in the US media.

I will check it out Dave thanks. Like I said I'm not for anybody but peace. This shit really worries me. Seriously I hope this ends tomorrow but when the troops move in you know that Lebanon and Syria are next. It is like chasing ghosts.

Have to stop the rockets in Palestine. Then it will be you have to stop the rockets in Lebanon and Syria. Then the mother load of Iran. This could realistically all happen before Obama gets into office. Which then brings us back to Bush.

Bush + World at War = Very Scary situation

#1143271Post 74 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

How will Israeli leaders measure this supposed victory, that she is striving for in this current conflict?

After the bombs have landed and a devastated peoples finished burying loves ones, what has actully been achieved?

Do Hamas just vanish?

Are Palestinians suppose to blame Hamas for the destruction that Israel has caused to them?

Have the conditions for the Palestinians improved for the better?

Are Palestinians going to be more loving, trusting, hopeful towards a peaceful existance with Israel as their neighbour?

What is the point when nothing but misery has been achieved?

#1143273Post 75 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv]So Hamas using a school area as shelter to fire their rockets at Israel, knowing that Israel is firing back at ALL locations they are being fired from.[/quote]

[URL]http://uk.news.yahoo.com/22/20090106/tpl-uk-palestinians-israel-school-un-sb-81f3b62.html[/URL]

[URL]http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/06/gaza-israel-death-un[/URL]

Yep, those kids were sure asking for it.

#1143288Post 76 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

you know, with all those brilliant scientists and awesome technology israel has, you'd think they could come up with some sort of air fortress, or a dam bubble over the whole state, or even better yet, some anti-rocket weaponry. Then you can just go about your daily routine not having to worry about Hamas or Hizbollah.

Tell you this though, no amount of defensive cherry-picking is going to solve anything. All israel did is step on another ant hill and piss off the colony. The only solution really is for an annhilation of the other since they both can't seem to figure out how to get along. That or make whatever land israel occupies into a similar zone like north/south koreas dmz and just mine the hell out of it.

In the end, it probably won't matter though. There's always a few people at the top that are probably playing this as a game, and as such, there will be casualties. It's good business selling weapons. Speaking of which, they caught the supposed 'merchant of death.'

#1143305Post 77 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=Localizer;694558] Tell you this though, no amount of defensive cherry-picking is going to solve anything. All israel did is step on another ant hill and piss off the colony.[/quote]

This is obvious and must've been already established/known to the Israelis prior to bombing/invasion. But they went ahead with it anyway.

[quote]The only solution really is for an annhilation of the other since they both can't seem to figure out how to get along. [/quote]

There is a solution and it's the single/two state solution.

Are there any other workable alternatives to this?

[quote] In the end, it probably won't matter though. There's always a few people at the top that are probably playing this as a game, and as such, there will be casualties. It's good business selling weapons. '[/quote]

Agreed

#1143315Post 78 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694444]Shiva

First off Sheba is a transliteration. . . .

Secondly, at this moment in time, according to the UN, that land mass is in dispute between Israel and Syria - fact.

Therefore the purpose of Hizbollah is what exactly? And why have the UN and Lebanese refused, thats right, refused to disarm Hizbolla and continue to allow Iran to arm them through Syria?

I'm no expert, but I'm also not an idiot - I tend to only engage in what I know and not what I think I know - so wanna tell me again how Sheba belongs to Lebanon and how big nasty Israel is provoking Hizbollah, who continue to be in contravention to UNSCR 1771 with the support of your government.[/quote]

Dave, it took more more than 1/2 hr to type my reply to the hizballah armament issue, please go back few pages and check, too long to re-type. And I add: Whether it is fine with the world or not, with yrs hizballah has shifted from being a simple armed resistance to becoming a major Lebanese political party. Lebanese demography is religiously composed of 17 sects, and it happens that the shi'a community is a major chunk of it. It is a fact, a reality that everyone has to deal with, whether internally or externally to Lebanon.

The Shebaa fams is a Lebanese (claim), and this will be solved soon at the UN. After all these years of conflict, now the main issue between Lebanon and Israel remains this spit of land called "Shebaa" farms. Once this is solved, hizballah will probably shift from being a military party to a social party. Israel should just not give them any reason to act as a resistance party, resistance to occupation, Israel's occupation.

You say Israel is not occupying any Lebanese lands? Ok, lets skip this Shebaa one coz we already spoke very much about it, it is now in the UN's hands and will/should be solved soon.

But you say Israel is not occupying any Lebanese lands? Well Dave occupation has many forms, and invading a country's sovereignty on a daily basis IS a form of occupation. You talk about the resolution 1771, and I talk about the resolution 1701. Yes, hizballah should be disarmed, but AFTER that ALL FOREIGN armies have left from its lands. Hizballah is Lebanese, his is on HIS TERRITORY, he is not an invading force but a defensive ones. However Syria and Israel are NOT Lebanese and they should get out, simply! No nuance, no misunderstanding, crystal clear!!!!

For 30 yrs the former USSR & the US have been fighting a proxy war through Syria & Israel...but where?? On the occupied Syrian Golan heights? NO!!!! They did it on the Lebanese soil. Lebanon has been victim for so many years of other people's wars: When Syria & Israel wana fix their differences they don't do it face-to-face, they do it through proxy on Lebanon. We even still bear the price of having 400.000 Palestinian refugees in Palestinian camps, what about these ones? Who takes care of them? Why is Israel denying the return of the '67 refugees? In the name of what? That is their land!

Ok, now lets go back to 1701, which says ALL FOREIGN ARMY SHOULD LEAVE LEBANON!!!

Syria left...but Israel are still in, and I am not talking about Shebaa farms this time (since it is a territorial issue), I am referring to your warplanes that violates the Lebanese sovreignty every day!!! [B]ISRAEL OCCUPIES LEBANESE AIRSPACE[/B], clearer now? Every damn day we hear your war planes over our heads. Ah, Israel considers this legitimate in order to check on the Lebanese what they are doing. And the West is making the mistake of not selling the Lebanese gov planes to defend its air space, neither supplying them with missiles to shoot them down. Practically the Lebanese airspace is the backyard of Israel's space...it is like a walk in the park for the Israeli Air Force. Yea, Israel keeps on occupying part of Lebanon, acts as if its backyard, and Lebanon should just shut up, disarm hizballah and let the Israelis do whatever they want....NO, I am sorry.

And to make things more complicated: Russia has decided to step in and they will supply the Lebanese Air Force with Migs to defend its airspace, the pilots are being formed as we type.... Of course this will not be a match against the all-mighty Israeli air force, the point is not here, the point is that Lebanon has every right to defend itself or its territory.

[U][B]As far as I am concerned, I am neither an Israeli sympathizer nor a Syrian or a Palestinian one: [/B][/U][U][B]I am a LEBANESE citizen and I sympathize with my cause only![/B][/U]

Sick and tired of seeing Lebanon being occupied and raped by higher powers that end up playing the victims themselves!

[B]1701 (in UN terms): SYRIA & ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON.[/B]

And Dave, please stop this charade about Syria arming hizballah, guys just move on! Israel has armed Lebanese groups for years to fight their proxy war against Syria, just as Syria did as well. To me both of them are fucked up hypocrite countries!!!

Another reason why nobody is leaving Lebanon prosper in peace?

I give you one: ECONOMY

Lebanon has a VERY highly educated class in rate and in its population, it is part of the Lebanese society and culture: 1/3 of its inhabitants are students (even under war and bombardments). It is common for a Lebanese citizen to hold a dual university degrees from the best universities in the region (Mainly American and French universities). Most Lebanese master fluently at least 3 languages since their early age (French, English and Arabic---and recently the Armenian has been added as the 4th national language). Also, most Lebanese hold a second nationality or citizenship, most of them from the west (Europe/Canada/Australia/US), and this why you see many Lebanese with European-type of faces and life-styles... Lebanon is known to be a major player in commerce and trade since the early ages of the phoenicians, which invented the alphabet, ships for trade and navale routes etc etc... It is a historic fact that still exists very much nowadays. Besides, Lebanon is strategically located between 3 continents Asia/Africa/Europe, strategic route to trade. Lebanon is the only country that has[B] WATER[/B] in the region, our water is like the Saudi oil and even more precious (which Israel is stealing btw). By its religious diversities, Lebanon is the only democracy in the Arab world that has a christian President of the Republic, the only place in the Arab world where you can live western-style, gamble, have fun and enjoy as if you were int any western country, even more! In just 40 minutes time you can move from the beach where you are swimming and get to the closest mountain top and start skiing!

Our younger educated generations are continuously fleeing the country looking for a better future in Europe/US or Canada...we are loosing all our brains and middle class somehow because of Israel and Syria, in fact the Lebanese living abroad are 12 million, while the ones living in Lebanon are barely 4 million!!!

If only Lebanon is left alone to prosper, it would eat for breakfast all the surrounding economies, I MEAN FOR BREAKFAST and I weight my words: Lebanon has just gone out from 30yrs of civil conflict, foreign conflicts on its lands, occupation, destruction, genocides...U NAME IT, and yet u should come take a peak of how the Lebanese have re-built their economy, cities, and infrastructures in just a few years, in practically no time. And hey, it is also very important to point out that Lebanon does not have any in industry, we do not produce anything, NOTHING! We just produce brains... All our economy is based on a strong financial system, we have more banks than groceries...Lebanon is a fiscal paradise, just like Monte Carlo. Lebanon has been rebuilding and doing all this within the chaos that its neighbors are inflicting on it...

The world propaganda always show the resistance side of Lebanon, the one of the hizballah etc etc...but this not ALL of Lebanon, it is a part of it only, the part that the media is interested in. Lebanon is much more than that, its a magical country.

Obviously too many reasons why this amazing and beautiful country (Lebanon) shouldn't prosper in peace, he is not an easy little neighbor to deal with!

[B]1701 (in UN terms): SYRIA & ISRAEL OUT OF LEBANON (full stop)[/B]

#1143370Post 79 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

For the reader, and whoever is following this hot topic:

Within the context of the Israelo-Arab conflict, I am not picking facts against Israel only, or Dave as an Israeli user on MS, not at all. Had there been some Palestinian user, or a Syrian user participating in this thread i would have picked on them as well, coz there is a LOT to tell too.

As a Lebanese, here are the thoughts on a broader pic of the conflict. Sorry to put it in this way, but it's the best expression and example I found:

Lebanon has been gang-raped for so many years by the following states (or people), each one in his turn and in his own way:

1- Palestinians: we hosted them as refugees after the 67 war and they tried to implement in Lebanon what they failed to do in Jordan: take over our country in order to get back at Israel etc etc.... and the destruction of Lebanon started.

2- Syria: we invited them to appease the civil war (turned religious war) rooted in the palestinian cause (refugees). The gents felt at tease and occupied Lebanon for 30 yrs etc etc... Lebanon still has missing people locked since 20+ years in Syrian jails without trials, just like American POWs went missing in vietnam.

3- Israel: also rooted within the palestinian cause, they followed the palestinian refugees/fighters inside Lebanon by invading Lebanon twice etc etc...well here we have atrocities committed which I dont wana mention (excluding 2006 war).

Yes, and the list is very long...

#1143631Post 80 of 127

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

look at this crap.

[URL]http://www.thelondondailynews.com/blackout-gaza-p-2099.html[/URL]

BBC not allowed to talk about the gaza situation

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