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Watching this on the news, really disastrous!

The Israeli defense minister Barak said it is a "deep incursion and a long operation" :what

The IDF have already moved into Gaza Strip, and according to local news there are heavy civilian casualties and military ones as well.... The IDF are mobilizing more reservists.

The situation is so volatile at the moment in the whole region, everybody is rushing to calm things down, but it might be a bit too late for that. I hope Lebanon will stay out of it otherwise it might just turn into a full-scale regional war, a war that could slip out of everybody's control :(

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Sad news .. I suppose there was an air of inevetability about this - there isn't a solution that can resolve the conflict and now the world watches on.

Frankly the whole situation confuses and depresses the hell out of me - the only outcome will be a higher body count, not peace.

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^^^^ So true. Very, very sad!!

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Really quite depressing.

What a terrible way to welcome in the New Year.

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Day 2 of the ground incursion:

This morning some news is leaking on Arab TV:

From the Israeli military side:

• 30 injured (2 seriously)
• [B]2 soldiers made prisoners[/B] (if true, the Palestinians now hold a total of 3 soldiers prisoners)

No news from Palestinian military side

• Lots of civilian casualties...

The US blocked a cease fire statement that was sought by the UN

This war will obviously be a long one... :(

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[quote=Shiva;693354] No news from Palestinian military side

• Lots of civilian casualties...

[/quote]

not that isreal isnt truly doing thier bullshit world status standard civvie death % best by walking house top house and interviewing, hamas has 100000000 times more blame for hat second part than anyone. if they would just stop operating in front of innocent people (even though they [I][U][B]sympathize** [/B][/U][/I]and offer ), so many "innocent" gazan lives could be saved from death and the figures woiuld be less skewed to make isreal, a country who literally faces hundreds of missle attacks a month from "[B]neighboring villages and towns".[/B]

**that word does not in any way at all dictate or put forth a meaning of "they are part of the violent, murderous willing to kill group of people within the anti sireali movement", but merely a motion of fact that normally these civilians only carry that name becuase they are not registered, uniformed members of the Gaza Nation. i.e. if the US had a cvil war and i offered my personal home to the NY resistance after the war was finished and i decided to keep up the fight after the south had won. even if it meant killing my neighbors to serve political and humanitarian purposes.

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[quote=thesightless;693360]not that isreal isnt truly doing thier bullshit world status standard civvie death % best by walking house top house and interviewing, hamas has 100000000 times more blame for hat second part than anyone. if they would just stop operating in front of innocent people (even though they [I][U][B]sympathize** [/B][/U][/I]and offer ), so many "innocent" gazan lives could be saved from death and the figures woiuld be less skewed to make isreal, a country who literally faces hundreds of missle attacks a month from "[B]neighboring villages and towns".[/B] [/quote]

^ I think Gaza is the one of the most populated areas in the world, maybe in Top 5:

I think they live @ 1.5 million gazans in a surface of less than 10km2, which is hugely dense on capita/km2... That's a main reason why unfortunately the civilians (elders, women and children) pay such a high price. It's winter time here and it got pretty cold for a "middle eastern" winter, so many civilians have already lost their houses and have no other place to go to...

It is a humanitarian catastrophy unfolding before our eyes!

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[quote=Shiva;693361]^ I think Gaza is the one of the most populated areas in the world, maybe in Top 5:

I think they live @ 1.5 million gazans in a surface of less than 10km2,[/quote]

Sorry Shiva, you're 'facts' aren't event remotely close to reality.

First off the Strip is 151 sq km.

Secondly if you take the size of the whole strip, and its population, there are far more places on this planet that are more populated.

Here's two comparisons:

Mumbai - Area 603.4 sq KM - Population - 13,662,885 = 22643 people per sq km

New York City - Area 1,214 sq Km - Population - 8,274,527 = 6813 people per sq km

Gaza Strip - Area 360 sq km - Population 1,481,080 = 4114 people per Sq Km

Figures from Wikipedia.

So please when discussing this, please try to use facts that are verifiable and not just blatant bullshit, you are not the MSM and therefore I would hope that you would check facts before posting. :twisted:

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[quote=davetlv;693399]Sorry Shiva, you're 'facts' aren't event remotely close to reality.

First off the Strip is 151 sq km.

Secondly if you take the size of the whole strip, and its population, there are far more places on this planet that are more populated.

Here's two comparisons:

Mumbai - Area 603.4 sq KM - Population - 13,662,885 = 22643 people per sq km

New York City - Area 1,214 sq Km - Population - 8,274,527 = 6813 people per sq km

Gaza Strip - Area 360 sq km - Population 1,481,080 = 4114 people per Sq Km

Figures from Wikipedia.

So please when discussing this, please try to use facts that are verifiable and not just blatant bullshit, you are not the MSM and therefore I would hope that you would check facts before posting. :twisted:[/quote]

^ Aouch

Yes, well I haven't checked the exact surface area of Gaza coa that was not the point: what I meant is that it is really small and highly dense in population, which is a direct reason why the casualties are high.

However, to respond to your so-accurate figures that don't seem to match the ones I got:

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip[/URL]

The [B]Gaza Strip[/B] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language"]Arabic[/URL]: قطاع غزة‎ [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic"]transliteration[/URL]: [I]Qiṭɑʿ Ġazza/Qita' Ghazzah[/I], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language"]Hebrew[/URL]: רצועת עזה‎ [I]Retzu'at 'Azza[/I]) is a coastal strip of land along the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea"]Mediterranean Sea[/URL] currently governed by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas"]Hamas[/URL]. It borders [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt"]Egypt[/URL] on the south-west and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel"]Israel[/URL] on the north and east. It is about 41 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilometre"]kilometers[/URL] (25 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile"]mi[/URL]) long, and between 6 and 12 kilometers (4–7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 360 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_kilometre"]square kilometers[/URL] (139 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_mile"]sq mi[/URL]). The area is not recognized internationally as part of any [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty"]sovereign[/URL] country but is claimed by the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority"]Palestinian National Authority[/URL] as part of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories"]Palestinian territories[/URL]. Since the June 2007 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29"]battle of Gaza[/URL], actual control of the area is in the hands of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_of_the_Gaza_Strip"]the Hamas [I]de facto[/I] government[/URL].

The point here is not about the surface area of Gaza, but its density. The surface area cannot be accurate in any reference due to settlements and other reasons.

And I think, I can discuss this subject as much as I want coz I don't just read about it or watch it on TV, I live it! You googling some info doesnt necessarily make you more knowledgeable about a subject...

(and plz, next time u wana reply to me, keep ur bully language to yourself, it would be much appreciated)

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Shiva, what do you expect from a nation that thinks the only way to achieve its goals is by brute force.

Let's not forget Hamas was voted in through a UN inspected elections and Israel together with the US has been carrying out collective punishment since then.

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[quote=Shiva;693406]^ Aouch

Yes, well I haven't checked the exact surface area of Gaza coa that was not the point: what I meant is that it is really small and highly dense in population, which is a direct reason why the casualties are high.[/quote]

Actually the direct reason why casulties are so high is because Hamas continue to store their arms and weapons amongst the civillian population - which is a war crime.

Have a look at some the images the IAF has released of their precision targeting in Gaza and you will see the initial hit followed by a huge secondary explosions - mainly Grads and Qassams going boom!

[quote=Shiva;693406]However, to respond to your so-accurate figures that don't seem to match the ones I got:

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip[/URL]

The [B]Gaza Strip[/B] ([URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language"]Arabic[/URL]: قطاع غزة‎ [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanization_of_Arabic"]transliteration[/URL]: [I]Qiṭɑʿ Ġazza/Qita' Ghazzah[/I], [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language"]Hebrew[/URL]: רצועת עזה‎ [I]Retzu'at 'Azza[/I]) is a coastal strip of land along the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea"]Mediterranean Sea[/URL] currently governed by [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas"]Hamas[/URL]. It borders [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt"]Egypt[/URL] on the south-west and [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel"]Israel[/URL] on the north and east. It is about 41 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kilometre"]kilometers[/URL] (25 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mile"]mi[/URL]) long, and between 6 and 12 kilometers (4–7.5 mi) wide, with a total area of 360 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_kilometre"]square kilometers[/URL] (139 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_mile"]sq mi[/URL]). The area is not recognized internationally as part of any [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereignty"]sovereign[/URL] country but is claimed by the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority"]Palestinian National Authority[/URL] as part of the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_territories"]Palestinian territories[/URL]. Since the June 2007 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gaza_%282007%29"]battle of Gaza[/URL], actual control of the area is in the hands of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Governance_of_the_Gaza_Strip"]the Hamas [I]de facto[/I] government[/URL].

The point here is not about the surface area of Gaza, but its density. The surface area cannot be accurate in any reference due to settlements and other reasons.

And I think, I can discuss this subject as much as I want coz I don't just read about it or watch it on TV, I live it!

(and plz, next time u wana reply to me, keep ur bully language to yourself, it would be much appreciated)[/quote]

So your Gaza facts state that the strip is 360 sq km, which is what i have posted. Take the population of gaza divide by the size of the strip and my figures are correct - whats your point exactly? That Gaza ISN'T one of the most over populated areas on this planet is a basic fact.

My bully language? You mean asking you to be better than the MSM by trying to actually use facts instead of fiction? Bwahahaha Funny lady!

As for you 'living' it - where are you? Gaza? Sderot? How do you 'live' it compared to me?

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Before this goes any further or take other directions: I opened this thread under the humanitarian perspective of this tragic event, and event that might blow out of proportion.

As a European-born, I have been living 15 years in the middle east now, and I still have'nt figured out all those clashes of cultures/religions and political views. I survived few wars and more than 30 terrorist attacks in the past 2 years.

However, I am an artist and a public figure in the region; although I have my own views and thoughts of the world surrounding me, I cannot share them. Never did, never will.

In Lebanon we have the term "Bizantine Argument": A "bizantine argument" is when 2 or more people talk or shout over each other without ever reaching to any understanding, conclusion or even moving forward in the subject:

The Israeli-Arab conflict is rooted in 3000 years of history coz it is "bizantine argument" between cultures/civilizations/religions and politics...

So, my point in opening the thread is not to criticize/judge/defend or attack any side in conflict; My heart is broken for all those innocent people (from all sides) suffering this endless conflict. Today we see people suffering from wounds on TV, but the sufferings aren't just physical. There are all kinds of sufferings related to this conflict, and it extends to more than 2 or 3 countries, and it has already affected so many past generations, and will probably affect many more to come....

My deep concern is not to have Lebanon involved in this coz it wont be a 30-days "light" war as it was in 2006...it will get MUCH nastier. I had a tiny taste of that "light" war, and I don't wana taste a heavy one, for nothing on this earth!

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^ Ah, now that your country has appeared DAVETLV on ur profile, I can understand your point. And now that my country has appeared as well, you can understand what I mean...

(Part of my family is from Southern Lebanon)

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[quote=sono;693408]Shiva, what do you expect from a nation that thinks the only way to achieve its goals is by brute force.

Let's not forget Hamas was voted in through a UN inspected elections and Israel together with the US has been carrying out collective punishment since then.[/quote]

Indeed lets Sono, lets look at how Hamas has used force against my country between the end of the ceasefire and the start of Operation Cast Lead.

[quote][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008"]Source[/URL] December 19th The cease fire agreement ends. During the six month cease fire 329 rockets and mortar shells were fired. For the six months prior to the truce 2278 rockets and mortars were fired into Israel.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-85"][86][/URL]

December 21st At least 50 rockets and mortars to strike southern Israel since a cease-fire with Hamas ended on December 19th. Rockets landed in Ashkelon's industrial zone, near an elementary school, a youth cultural center in the western Negev and a home in Sderot. A foreign worker was injured. In response, Israeli forces struck at least two rocket launchers in Gaza. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-86"][87][/URL]

December 22nd Three Qassam rockets were fired at Israel on Monday afternoon and evening while Hamas has mostly stopped launching rockets at Israel for 24 hours at the request of [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt"]Egypt[/URL].[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-87"][88][/URL]

December 23rd At least five Qassam rockets fired from the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip"]Gaza Strip[/URL] struck the western Negev.[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-88"][89][/URL]

December 24th More than 60 Qassam rockets and dozens of mortar shells struck homes, factories and a playground in southern Israel. Two longer ranged Grad-type missiles struck a public area in northern [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkelon"]Ashkelon[/URL]. Homes in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kibbutz"]Kibbutz[/URL] Shaar Hanegev and Sdot Negev suffered serious damage from direct hits. A rocket also struck next to a playground in [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netivot"]Netivot[/URL]. One factory in the [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Western_Negev&action=edit&redlink=1"]western Negev[/URL] was hit twice. Several people in those areas were treated for shock.Two [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinians"]Palestinians[/URL] were hurt when a rocket that did not clear the security fence at the border landed on a home in a northern [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza"]Gaza[/URL] town. [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-89"][90][/URL]

December 26th A dozen rockets and mortar bombs were fired from Gaza into Israel, one accidentally falling short and striking a northern Gaza house and killing two Palestinian sisters, aged five and thirteen, while wounding a third[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-90"][91][/URL][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rocket_and_mortar_attacks_in_Israel_in_2008#cite_note-91"][92][/URL]Hamas, and their supporters, have achieved everything they wanted and now they cry like little bitches when they get hurt in return.[/quote]Stop Hamas fire against my country and we will gladly leave those fucks in Gaza alone.

Whats not to understand? Even Egypts foreign minister realises that Hamas has created this situation.

They've got exactly what they wanted - more dead Palestinians to blame Israel for.

The only people i feel sorry for here are the Palsestinian civillians and Israeli civillians whose lives are affected by the Iranian stooges in hamas.

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[quote=Shiva;693413]^ Ah, now that your country has appeared DAVETLV on ur profile, I can understand your point. And now that my country has appeared as well, you can understand what I mean...[/quote]

My country has always appeared under my name.

What I understand Shiva is that yet again people are being hurt and killed in a region that has seen far to much death and destruction. All i ask is that when we discuss this emotive issue we try to do it in away different to the Main Stream media - by this i mean actually using real facts and sources and not unverifiable propaganda from either side.

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^ Yes, I agree with you... Initially when I spoke about the the surface area of Gaza I wasn't correct, coz my point was that they are living in a high density of population, like 1.5 M in some few digits square km. Yes, you have a point in trying to be more specific, and now that I am posting with someone who also lives in the area is one more reason to be specific.... correct. I will be more specific then.

At first I hadn't noticed your country below ur name till the discuss went well ahead.

And you would agree with my fear of having a second front opened on you northern border/our southern border... If we read the regional geo-political situation, the current conflict was to be expected sooner or later. If I go futher into my own interpretation of things (which I fear will happen sooner or later), the conflict will have a domino effect in relation to the state of "El-Fakih" and its ambitions...

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[quote=Shiva;693419] And you would agree with my fear of having a second front opened on you northern border/our southern border... If we read the regional geo-political situation, the current conflict was to be expected sooner or later. If I go futher into my own interpretation of things (which I fear will happen sooner or later), the conflict will have a domino effect in relation to the state of "El-Fakih" and its ambitions...

Last night during a press conference Ehud Barak said something like he hopes that a second front will not open up in the north but if it does then Israel is ready for it.

I also hope, for the sake of both our country's, that a second front will not open up.

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Some are just waiting for that! :(

During the last 2 months 2 attacks were launched (by unknowns) from our southern border: Israel didn't reply and the medias kept the story low profile.

Now, according to Arab news: IDF is calling upon 6.000 additional reservists to position in defense on the northern border of Israel, and this time the IDF won't back down like it did before (according to Barak).

Now the situation will be so tensed with X thousands of troops massed up around that border, without forgetting the 15.000 UN peacekeepers. If anyone of those massed troops lights a small match at the wrong moment/place, the whole area could embrase itself in fire...and then God knows how things might turn.

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i dont know how u are able to live in such a volitale region. looks like utter chaos from what i have seen on the news. this is just horrible. i dont know how this will ever get resolved.

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I really cannot understand why 1.5 milion people who live in the Gazza Strip have to be collctivelly punished for the actions of the militants of Hamas. The Israeli Air Strikes represent severe violations of the International Humanitarian Law and there is no way you can convince me otherwise. Certainly, the rocket attacks against civilian targets in Israel are unlawful, but that does not give anyone the right to commit war crimes and crimes against humanity.

Targeting civilians - ambulances,women & children,doctors,nurses etc ... is what I would call a war crime! Different reliable sources, BBC, Reuters, CNN, have been reporting and confirmed the aforementioned - that air strikes were aimed at civilian areas in one of the most crowded stretches of land in the world.

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Shiva now might be a good time to take a trip to Canada. I hope Lebanon stays out of things

Stay Safe most of all.

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^ Thank you. The region where I live is considered one of the safest in the country, as long as locally things don't blow out of proportion...

I feel like typing few words:

It seems no Lebanese political party will unilaterally do something at the border with Israel.. It seems both sides wana keep things calm (and hopefulyl it stays that way).

Yesterday a rep of Hamas in Syria was talking about opening a second front if the situation continues like this, and this is a MAJOR fear, fear of the "unknowns":

"Unknowns", they are non-lebanese groups, and we have lots of them: Lebanon is hosting 400.000 Palestinian refugees (from '67 War) in 12 or 13 camps spread all over the country, and they are armed within the camps and surroundings. We also have all sorts of religious fanatics and groups in Lebanon coming from the Arabic peninsula & Asia (Saoudis/Yemenis/Iraqis/Syrians/Egyptians/Iranians etc etc,.. u name it). And every in a while, when you have a small group of religious freaks wanting to get extra attention, they just pick up a name for themselves and start bombing innocent civilians here and there. We even have Syrian parties here in Lebanon, parties that are not even allowed to exist in Syria itself in the first place, but we do have them here on our soil...and yet no embassies between Syria and Lebanon exist yet as of today How fucked up ALL the above is?! >>> [B]VERY!!!!!![/B]

Last month the Lebanese army (by miracle) discovered and diffused on time several rockets planted in the south by "unknowns" and programed for lauch while aimed towards the border. Our fear comes from these groups that cannot be all fully controlled, at the moment. But a positive side to this is that there are 15.000 UN peackeepers massed along the southern border of Lebanon, they are mostly Europeans and armed to the teeth with their latest technologies... Lots of hope rest on them and on the Lebanese army to keep the unknowns from lighting up the region.

All local TVs are talking only about this:

Now, the way I read this, in 2 words: Hamas is a close ally to Iran, and it controls the Gaza strip which is in the middle of Israel.

Israel has already to deal with iranian-backed groups on its borders, especially the northern one. Israel cannot afford to deal with similar groups from within.

Israel decides to whipe out the iranian influence within its territory, which is strategically speaking, normal for a state to take actions (I am not talking about the way it is done that is normal, please do not misunderstand).

And when Israel "decides", it goes all the way, we have seen it happen many times (whether successfully or not).

The elemination of the iranian-influenced groups from within the Israeli territory seems to be a higher "sate-priority", which at the end prevails over the loss of human lives. And who pays the ultimate price? as usual, the civilians!

Keepin in mind the broader picture: the Iranian-Israeli tension over many things among which, and mainly, the iranian nuclear ambition.

....and DAMN!!!

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ya the bombing of Iran I am pretty sure is on the short list of things to do as far as Israel and the US are concerned. I hope I am wrong but now that Obama is in I feel that triggered all of this. Israel doesn't think Obama will be tough enough on the Iranians so they have taken matters into their own hands. I don't see a stop to this for a little while. You don't typically send the troops in and then pull them out days later.

But seriously you and your hubby shoud pop on over to Canada. Windsor in particular we have the highest amount of Lebanese out side of Lebanon. So you should feel right at home.:lol:

Plus I would like to party with you guys.;):lol:

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[quote=runningman;693862]But seriously you and your hubby shoud pop on over to Canada. Windsor in particular we have the highest amount of Lebanese out side of Lebanon. So you should feel right at home.:lol:

Plus I would like to party with you guys.;):lol:[/quote]

^ The pleasure would be all ours...:D Hopefully one day. Yes I know, big Lebo community there... I HATE THE COLD!!!! :lol:

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As a person in the US, it is really interesting to hear the perspectives of those that are actually in the region. Yet another thing I appreciate about the global community that is [ms].

I don't know what to think about what's going on over there.

On the one hand, I'm sympathetic to Israel because a country ought not be expected to take multiple rocket hits a day without retaliating, but...

They have so much more firepower, the response seems disproportionate, and lots of Palestinian civilians are being killed, but...

Hamas has chosen to launch its attacks from civilian locations, so Israeli strikes on military targets are almost necessarily going to affect civilians -- if Israel [B]really [/B]wanted to kill large numbers of Palestinian civilians, that is something that is well withing their ability to do, so their restraint in that regard supports the idea that they are striking military targets -- but...

These civilians helped elect Hamas, a terrorist organization whose very charter calls for the destruction of Israel, so there has to be an expectation that electing Hamas isn't likely to lead to a peaceful existence with Israel, but...

etc., etc., etc.

Very complicated, and I frankly don't really know enough about it to have an informed opinion on it all. Hoping for a swift end to the conflict with minimal additional lives lost, above all...

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well when the Israelis shut the power down in Palestine and have taken away the fresh the water with checkpoints all over the country you had to know something was going to happen. When you starve people and give them a poor quality of life they will become terrorists for sure.

You can't stop terrorism with war. Impossible.

All that this new war is doing is creating more terrorists because once you murder someone in a civilian family tree now you have the whole tree become pissed at you and possibly become terrorists. You have to give them a better quality of life and then maybe they won't want to have suicidal tendencies. That is the only way of stopping terrorism IMO.

PS thanks to Davelty and Shiva for information on the situation. Shit I trust your guys opinion more then all the news papers combined.

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all this and hamas still is firing rockets into the region as we speak...

they simply dont learn and refuse to get past thier ultimate goal of killing jews.

god, even if they took a 6 month hiatus, they would see a drastic improvement in living conditions.

at this point, im all for isreal simply going house to house and finding every munition and weapon in gaza and then pulling out and starting a monster humanitarian campaign, but i just cant feel bad for gaza, they let this shit go on, they put hamas in power, they are happy when isrealis are hurt, and they incite it evertime.

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[quote=runningman;693890]PS thanks to Davelty and Shiva for information on the situation. Shit I trust your guys opinion more then all the news papers combined.[/quote]

Well yes, we live it... all eyes on all kinds of news, comparing, listening. It is a war, and not very far from home.

The amazing thing in this area is that one day you may sleep in a status quo and then wake up next day in another one, totally different. Big things happen so fast that you must keep a sharp eye on the developments: "We live on edge" might be a correct term :D

To my understanding, so my hubby explains to me, a solution to this crisis must be found through an inter-Palestinian dialogue, between Hamas & Fateh, the 2 main political parties, in sharing the power:

• The President of the Palestinian authority, the legal authority at the moment, is from Fateh and controls Cisjordania.
• The Prime Minister, at the moment the illegal authority, is controling the Gaza strip.

The only legal authority of both institutions is the President Abbas, which presidency term expires in just a few days...

So, if the Palestinians don't manage to solve their internal issues before the re-election of the next President, then chances are that there won't be an elected President of the Palestinian Authority which will just add fuel to this ongoing war.

It's like going from chaos to more chaos, typical middle-eastern style...

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in a weird spot, i was just reading newsweek, and there is an article titled

"HOW WE GOT HERE" about this whole mess, and above the title is a picture of rabin, clinton, arafat, and the then egyptian leader, all fixing thier ties for a press conference.

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funny they left out Bush.

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pic was from 90's

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[quote=ace_dl;693761] Targeting civilians - ambulances,women & children,doctors,nurses etc ... is what I would call a war crime! .[/quote]

You gotta love that comment - where were you calling the Hamas and Islamic Jihad rockets that have rained down on Israel since 2000, but specifically since the disengagement in 2005?

Either I've missed your posts condemning those almost 3000 rockets over three years, or you're just a hypocrite? Which is it?

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;693971]You gotta love that comment - where were you calling the Hamas and Islamic Jihad rockets that have rained down on Israel since 2000, but specifically since the disengagement in 2005?

Either I've missed your posts condemning those almost 3000 rockets over three years, or you're just a hypocrite? Which is it?[/quote]

First of all I would be glad if you could please lay off that offensive language. Everyone is entitled to his own opinions and it would be nicer on replying to other people's comments with respect.

The Hamas leaders are pathetic cause they risk their own civilians and innocent people and because they have caused so many casualties on Israel cities for so many years. On the other hand, Isralei leaders are pathetic as well cause they are so desperate to look tough!

"Defense" doesn't mean the same thing when one antagonist is a state and the other a networked organization. Such sets of policies and tools don't work anymore. [I]They make things worse[/I]. Has Israel become safer by following such tactics? So political leaders (including Europe's and USA ones) need to stop framing this deadly mayhem as some sort of justified or normal behavior.

Finally, every single day, as soon as we turn on the TV, we see children there die in the hospitals, adults dying, children dying on the floor ... I do not want to see this happen not in Gaza nor in Ashkelon or Sderotor or anywhere else in the world :evil:

Have a good day or night everyone

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=ace_dl;694001]First of all I would be glad if you could please lay off that offensive language. Everyone is entitled to his own opinions and it would be nicer on replying to other people's comments with respect.[/quote]

So calling you a hypocrite is now offensive? Have you posted anywhere over the past 3 years condemning Hamas for its actions against my country? No. But when we put a stop to our cities getting bombed you find that offensive.

I'm sorry for calling you a hypocrite, I was wrong. You're a fucking idiot and a hypocrite. Better now?

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694007]So calling you a hypocrite is now offensive? Have you posted anywhere over the past 3 years condemning Hamas for its actions against my country? No. But when we put a stop to our cities getting bombed you find that offensive.

I'm sorry for calling you a hypocrite, I was wrong. You're a fucking idiot and a hypocrite. Better now?[/quote]

I am not not gonna go further into this ... You are a sad person

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=ace_dl;694030]I am not not gonna go further into this ... You are a sad person[/quote]

You're right, sad and angry.

Sad because its apparent that you have no concern at the amount of rockets that have hit my country over the past three years, rockets that have rained down on schools, playgrounds, hospitals, kindergartens, supermarkets, in fact anywhere where our citizens go - rockets that were clearly 'war crimes';

And angry because the only time you say anything is when we try stop the homicidal manics of Hamas from firing rockets into our country, rockets that have been specifically targeted at our schools, playgrounds, hospitals, kindergartens, supermarkets, in fact anywhere our citizens go - which is clearly a war crime, and yet acceptable by you it would seem.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

If it wasn't so incredibly sad , this would be laughable , those rockets are incapable of targeting anything.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

honestly, is anyone surprised by any of this?

what did we expect when the world basically carved out a Jewish nation in 1948 right in the middle of a bunch of hostile, extremist Islamic nations?

look, I feel very sorry for the Jewish persecution throughout history, and I know they have historical ties to that region, but there was just no way that it was ever going to work.

the whole thing is doomed and will really only be resolved when global nuclear war erupts some day in the not too distant future as a result of this.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

[quote=davetlv;694007]So calling you a hypocrite is now offensive? Have you posted anywhere over the past 3 years condemning Hamas for its actions against my country? No. But when we put a stop to our cities getting bombed you find that offensive.

I'm sorry for calling you a hypocrite, I was wrong. You're a fucking idiot and a hypocrite. Better now?[/quote]

Uhum....

Guys, this subject is cause for so many fights around the world, lets not add to it here, won't solve anything. We are just trying to share opinions in a respectable way, we are not children and most of us here know what they are talking about, so lets do it within the boundaries of respect otherwise this thread will turn into non-sense salad.

IMO, LOTS AND LOTS AND LOTS of things are to be condemned from BOTH SIDES!

An example that concerns me for instance: I could point out the illegal cluster bombs that Israel dropped on southern Lebanon in 2006, remember the number? =>[B] 1.000.000+[/B] cluster bombs dropped in less than 30 days! They are still there and are still killing children and disabling innocent people as we type.

And David, please don't give me the reason as of why the IDF dropped the cluster bombs, we all know "the excuse". At difference of rockets used in a conventional war, cluster bombs are ILLEGAL worldwide due to the amazing nasty damage it causes in space (surface area) and time: a treaty was signed not long ago banning them from usage worldwide......All the nations signed the treaty except a few ones that you could count with 1 hand, and I let you imagine which countries they are...

A legal example (taken in a broad sense): In western law (at least in the societies that have their penal code based on the french code, which is the root): if someone attacks you with a knife and you happen to have a gun on you and you shoot and kill the guy: [B]well, as far as the law is concerned, you will be found guilty in court![/B] People might say "it is considered self-defense", when it is not! It is not coz there is no "[U][B]equal force[/B][/U]" applied here (white weapon vs real weapon): With a gun you could have just shot him to wound him instead of shooting him for killing him. There lies the legal nuance, the term "self-defense" lies within a thin line from "offense"...

Do I make any sense in my explanation? [B] Extremism: [/B]It exists all over the world and in many forms, whether it is in the US, in France, in Germany, in South Africa, in Afghanistan, in Israel and Palestine or elsewhere I haven't mentioned, they are all the same!

This is an ugly situation, it has been ugly since before we were all born, and might remain ugly till after we all die... But in the meantime, if we wana share ideas in a international public forum I suggest we do it in a respectable way, especially when it comes to such a sensitive issue.

Re: IDF invade Gaza Strip

This war is turning into a human massacre, soooo damn ugly....

I just would ask 1 question only to the IDF: Taking in considering ALL the logics of war and battle, EVERYTHING! Why in hell would the IDF target UNRWA (UN post) where ONLY women and children (no weapons there, nothing!), that have no other safe place to go to, have found refuge from the bombs. Why in hell would the Israeli army commit such a massacre killing 50 women and children in just few minutes? This is no mistake, it was intentional.

So many many numbers are being broadcasted, too ugly to post them all but its really BAD! All hospitals combined in Gaza can accommodate only 1200 people, the number of injured now is close to 2500. No food, no water, no medicine..NOTHING! 1.5 Million imprisoned in this huge prison called Gaza and simply being massacred!

Analysts and references that usually sympathize with the Israeli cause are all saying that Israel is now adding a black spot on its human right records!

Just a note: Israel keeps on violating the Lebanese airspace on a DAILY basis, it is a form of aggression against the Lebanese sovereignty. Today they did it again, and it is a provocation.