[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
This is so retarded.
[URL]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a3ArjWNoRSKw&refer=worldwide[/URL]
They are going to bailout all the rich people while letting the middle class just get obliterated. Lets see $100 Billion in toxic assets or $50 Billion loan to save the big three and millions of jobs.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^^^ And the reason would be because a major bank and a major auto manufacturer are not the same thing, and their demise impacts the economy in very different ways.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
you must have a family member in the banking industry.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679563]you must have a family member in the banking industry.[/quote]
i dont see what that has to do with anything?
Miroslav is right, a major bank like Citibank represents A LOT more (both economically and financially)than the 3 auto company's.
runningman, you must have some family members in the auto industry huh? :roll::roll:
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679563]you must have a family member in the banking industry.[/quote] Actually, I don't have a single one. I just have an understanding of: (1) the role that major banks like Citi - one of the few largest in the nation - play in the global economy; and (2) the unfortunate structure and situation that has resulted from allowing those major banks to become over-leveraged with relatively new and unregulated financial tools and techniques. If you want a primer, let me know.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
For starters I was getting back at Miro because he previously (in another thread) said I must have a family member in the auto industry because I defended the bailout for the big 3.
Secondly you can create a bank far easier with government capital behind it then you can teach skilled workers who if they get laid off will riot and burn your country to the ground. Remember everyone on here is afraid of Detroit. Then keep them there. Ask yourself do you want mass migration from Detroit to your city? What will that do to crime? Will murders go up? The answer is yes to all of the above.
What you all need to realize is that money isn't real. It just seems like it does.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679607]Secondly you can create a bank far easier with government capital behind it then you can teach skilled workers who if they get laid off will riot and burn your country to the ground.[/quote] If creating solvent banks was so quick and easy, we wouldn't have a global crisis with them right now.
[quote=runningman;679607]What you all need to realize is that money isn't real. It just seems like it does.[/quote] Money per se is not real. What it represents is very real. Again, if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't be having an economic crisis and a recession.
Know what's funny about all this? A while back, you were the one calling me a socialist for favoring a bailout of the financial industry. And now you're the one who wants to bail out the auto industry. So how does it feel to join the socialist ranks? :lol:
[IMG]http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3241/3054417251_f7b1d7c548.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^ lulz
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
Good, no bailout for the 3. The UAW needs to die, and GM need to start booting management.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679607]For starters I was getting back at Miro because he previously (in another thread) said I must have a family member in the auto industry because I defended the bailout for the big 3.
Secondly you can create a bank far easier with government capital behind it then you can teach skilled workers who if they get laid off will riot and burn your country to the ground. Remember everyone on here is afraid of Detroit. Then keep them there. Ask yourself do you want mass migration from Detroit to your city? What will that do to crime? Will murders go up? The answer is yes to all of the above.
What you all need to realize is that money isn't real. It just seems like it does.[/quote]Not only Detroit, GM et all have factories in Europe and Asia too. If Citibank in Belgium would close down, 950 people would lose their job. If Opel Antwerp would shut its doors, a few thousand would be on the street. And that's just one factory.
I'm not saying bail this or bail that, but I'm getting the impression that the more you fuck over society, the more the state will finance your mistakes.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^^ Exactly... these yo-yos on here don't get it. You can only piss people off so long until they revolt.
Hey Miro you would probably defend the banks even if all your assets were possessed to help pay for the national debt because you know what, that is next. In order to end the great depression the US gov't repossessed everyone's gold. I can't wait to talk on here when the big 3 have gone under and every city in the US is burning. But hey the banks are ok. You know how insignificant banks really are?? and yes it really is that easy to start a bank.
I hate it when I am right. Look at this shit.
[URL]http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bloomberg_US_could_lend_as_much_1124.html[/URL]
$7.4 Trillion?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Guess where it is all goin Miro?? You will be happy to hear that 99% of it is going to bankers.
Oh hear you guys go. You Auto haters should read this.
[URL]http://mediamatters.org/items/200811220004[/URL]
Hmmm a lie about $70/hr but talking about $7.4 Trillion in bailouts. The smoke screen is set. With everyone focusing on the Autos you are going to get bank robbed.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679834]^^ Exactly... these yo-yos on here don't get it. You can only piss people off so long until they revolt.
Hey Miro you would probably defend the banks even if all your assets were possessed to help pay for the national debt because you know what, that is next. In order to end the great depression the US gov't repossessed everyone's gold. I can't wait to talk on here when the big 3 have gone under and every city in the US is burning. But hey the banks are ok. You know how insignificant banks really are?? and yes it really is that easy to start a bank.
I hate it when I am right. Look at this shit.
[URL]http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Bloomberg_US_could_lend_as_much_1124.html[/URL]
$7.4 Trillion?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! Guess where it is all goin Miro?? You will be happy to hear that 99% of it is going to bankers.[/quote]
I think we should pitch the Canadian education system a few billion. For the obvious reasons.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679834]Hey Miro you would probably defend the banks even if all your assets were possessed to help pay for the national debt because you know what, that is next. In order to end the great depression the US gov't repossessed everyone's gold. I can't wait to talk on here when the big 3 have gone under and every city in the US is burning.[/quote]
[quote=runningman;679834]I hate it when I am right.[/quote] 3. Sorry to break it to you, bu you're not right. 4. You are, however, a Socialist - maybe even a Communist!
Thank you and good night!
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
lets just see who is right in 2010. For Mariner you forgot I am Canadian and you are from the USA which obviously means I am much smarter then you are. Instead of you guys bitching with me about how smart you guys are you should be taking notes from me on how to fix your corrupt country. The fact that you attack my country for statements I make just shows the shallowness of your education.
Miroslav Stalin is calling me a communist..HAHAH
I would love to start a bank with $7.4 Trillion in startup capital.. No problem
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[IMG]http://images.encyclopediadramatica.com/images/b/b0/Nlc007821-v4.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
in canada, milk comes in bags :)
To be honest, Runningman, you're out of your element.
Why is it that you believe people have a right to thier jobs?
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;679892]lets just see who is right in 2010. For Mariner you forgot I am Canadian and you are from the USA which obviously means I am much smarter then you are.[/quote] No, it means you're a socialist.
[quote=runningman;679892]Miroslav Stalin is calling me a communist..HAHAH[/quote] Strong words coming from a socialist!
[quote=runningman;679892]I would love to start a bank with $7.4 Trillion in startup capital.. No problem [/quote] Wouldn't it be against your socialist principles?
[quote=88Mariner;679917]To be honest, Runningman, you're out of your element.
Why is it that you believe people have a right to thier jobs?[/quote] I think it's because he's a socialist. :)
socialist, socialist, socialist!
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^^dude, have you been hanging around with Sarah Palin or something? ;)
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
It's not that I think people should have a right to their jobs but history shows us that high unemployment levels lead to third world problems. Rioting, Plague, high crime levels, poverty... etc. You send 3 million people home with no money and to many guns you have a systemic problem. Ya the bank will be their for awhile until it gets robbed all the time. Oh ya what will laying 3 million people off do to house foreclosures, retail? Where are these banks going to get their money from on all the loans that have been given out? I don't feel I am out of my element at all. I strongly feel for the best of my nation and your nation is to keep people working to prevent the above.
At least General Motors if showing it is making cuts to survive by ending the endorsement deal with Tiger Woods. What a sacrifice. Every time AIG gets more money they have $500,000 parties.
You should ask yourself rather then people have a right to a job. Banks don't have a right to money. You fuck up lending too bad. If GM gave cars away for free then this would be a different matter. That is what the banks did. They gave shit away and now they aren't getting paid. So now its the worlds problem at the tune of $8 Trillion??
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=Miroslav;680022]No, it means you're a socialist.[/quote] A bad speller, too. He should have said he is smarter THAN you, not smarter THEN you. Than is used when comparing subjects. Then is used when discussing an order of events.
Silly Canadians. :lol:
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
Ok, canadian jokes aside...
Runningman, at what point will you say, "let a failed business fail"? How long do you propose we send taxpayer dollars to the automakers?
Just curious.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=88Mariner;680101]Ok, canadian jokes aside...
Runningman, at what point will you say, "let a failed business fail"? How long do you propose we send taxpayer dollars to the automakers?
Just curious.[/quote]
i think what runningman is questioning is what is the difference between a major bank and a US auto company?
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^ one is the lifeblood of the country, the other produces items that lose a quarter of their value the moment they are sold.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
lets debate what I posted earlier. Don't you think that Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois will be a little upset that we hand over Trillions to the banks but nothing to keep great paying jobs that support the American values? I mean when do we tell the banks "hey you fucked up this is your problem" I mean the loans that they gave out mid as well been equal to autos giving away free cars and wondering why they didn't get paid isn't it?
You know what the funniest thing of all is. There isn't anything in the news about holding these banks accountable. I mean shouldn't someone (or thousands of people) be going to jail over this. How about the CEO's and board of directors of every major bank in the US?? I think that is fair. That is called holding someone accountable. That has become a lost art of the USA
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote]lets debate what I posted earlier. Don't you think that Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois will be a little upset that we hand over Trillions to the banks but nothing to keep great paying jobs that support the American values?[/quote]first 'states' don't get upset. second, and more seriously, if the banks fail, it doesn't fucking matter if GM may or may not be viable with a complete overhaul of management and union contracts. If the banks fail, you're going to have a WORLD of hurt, not just a few isolated pockets of manufacturing in the United States.
[quote] I mean when do we tell the banks "hey you fucked up this is your problem" I mean the loans that they gave out mid as well been equal to autos giving away free cars and wondering why they didn't get paid isn't it?[/quote]Why don't you write them a letter and tell them they fucked up and should resolve this on thier own? It's not like it's in thier face every day now. I'm sure a reminder will help.
Like i said, if the banks fail, the precious snowflake assembly-line jobs won't matter anymore.
[quote]You know what the funniest thing of all is. There isn't anything in the news about holding these banks accountable.[/quote]Well, they're probably not broadcasting it in Canada. That's all Fox News, CNBC, FOX Business, talk radio, ad nauseum have been talking about. If you're watching only the CBC, you're not getting enough information in your diet.
[quote]I mean shouldn't someone (or thousands of people) be going to jail over this. [/quote]point out where this is illegal? Perhaps breach of fiduciary duties (MAAAAYBE), but I don't see where the law has been broken just yet. If you're saying mismanaging a company qualifies as criminally culpable conduct, then start with the automakers in Detroit. (Apparently, these are the only automakers that are hurting; everyone else seems to be doing just dandy by comparison).
[quote]I think that is fair. That is called holding someone accountable. That has become a lost art of the USA[/quote]You don't 'think' it is fair, you 'feel' it is fair. And if you're going to put people in jail by standards of 'what is fair', then please go have a word with yourself.
Who do you suppose is going to fix the problem? Joe brake-installer?
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
so 7 trillion and nobody in jail. A possible systemic crisis and lets just "throw it under the rug".. Also nobody is doing "just dandy" as you put it. Toyota's sales are down almost 40% from last year. You should really go back to school and learn some of your history. Also please don't tell me what news I watch. I actually don't watch the CBC.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;680138]so 7 trillion and nobody in jail. A possible systemic crisis and lets just "throw it under the rug".. Also nobody is doing "just dandy" as you put it. Toyota's sales are down almost 40% from last year. You should really go back to school and learn some of your history. Also please don't tell me what news I watch. I actually don't watch the CBC.[/quote]
why should they be put in jail? they did not do anything illegal.
it was the US government that thought deregulation and playing god with the Fed rate that caused this mess in the first place. yes, wall street did repackage shit mortgages to sell over and over, but they did it well within the law or else they would not have done it in the first place.
if anyone should be put in jail its the fucking idiots who got mortgages who could not afford them in the first place but that's my opinion.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote]so 7 trillion and nobody in jail.[/quote]Are you suggesting that it is the dollar amount here that is indicative of criminal activity?
[quote]A possible systemic crisis [/quote]POSSIBLE?????????
[quote]and lets just "throw it under the rug"..[/quote]Has it ever occurred to you that the best thing to do is not do anything at this point and let the markets resolve themselves?
[quote]Toyota's sales are down almost 40% from last year. [/quote]Maybe because buying NEW CARS is a stupid idea? When there are millions of used cars out there to be bought at a fraction of the price, combined with the fact that cars drastically depreciate once they leave the new car lots, why on earth would anyone buy a brand new car right now? Maybe we could force people to buy new cars.
[quote]You should really go back to school and learn some of your history.[/quote]This has [I]nothing[/I] to do with history and [I]everything[/I] to do with economics. Pointing to history cures nothing nor resolves anything. It's a focus I [I]thought[/I] only Sarah Palin would make. ....If you want to start off with some relevant history, start of with Japan's economic crisis about a decade ago.
[quote]Also please don't tell me what news I watch. I actually don't watch the CBC.[/quote] I'm not telling you what news you watch. Just making an inference based upon the statements you've made. Enlighten me, what [I]do[/I] you watch?
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=88Mariner;680144]Enlighten me, what [I]do[/I] you watch?[/quote]
Well ya know... all of them... :lol:
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=MJDub;680147]Well ya know... all of them... :lol:[/quote]
oh dear god.
:roflmao:
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;680136]lets debate what I posted earlier. Don't you think that Michigan, Ohio, Wisconsin, Illinois will be a little upset that we hand over Trillions to the banks but nothing to keep great paying jobs that support the American values? I mean when do we tell the banks "hey you fucked up this is your problem" I mean the loans that they gave out mid as well been equal to autos giving away free cars and wondering why they didn't get paid isn't it?
You know what the funniest thing of all is. There isn't anything in the news about holding these banks accountable. I mean shouldn't someone (or thousands of people) be going to jail over this. How about the CEO's and board of directors of every major bank in the US?? I think that is fair. That is called holding someone accountable. That has become a lost art of the USA[/quote]
Um, if you hand over trillions to the bank (which I don't like as much as the next person), then the auto manufacturers can pay their employees and people can get loans to purchase vehicles. Revolving door of credit anyone?
But I agree, the heads of the CEOs should be on the chopping block and those employed by the companies should be the ones bailing out these companies. Was there not one person who had the balls or the brains to figure out their company was being retarded. Shit, this makes the folks at Enron look like geniuses.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=runningman;680136]You know what the funniest thing of all is. There isn't anything in the news about holding these banks accountable. I mean shouldn't someone (or thousands of people) be going to jail over this. How about the CEO's and board of directors of every major bank in the US?? I think that is fair. That is called holding someone accountable. That has become a lost art of the USA[/quote] You know what the funniest thing of all is? You want the banks' management to be held accountable, but you don't call for the auto makers' management to be accountable - a management group that has been one of the biggest international case studies of miserable and uncompetitive business practices over the past twenty years. ohh, teh lolz :lol:
If the banks should be held accountable for the fact that they're disasters (and I think they should), then so should those car companies. They've had ages to get their shit together while foreign competitors ate their lunch, and they never really changed.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^^ I'm sure there's an obvious explanation for this but can someone explain the difference between the banks management and Nick Leeson. He was held accountable and went to prison.
I'd hardly say the foreign companies are doing any better. I've been laid off for two and a half months in the first quarter of next year. and that's unpaid. We are also taking a 17 % pay cut. I work for Honda but its the same story at Mercedes BMW Mini, Nissan and everywhere else.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=chunky;680405]^^ I'm sure there's an obvious explanation for this but can someone explain the difference between the banks management and Nick Leason. He was held accountable and went to prison.
I'd hardly say the foreign companies are doing any better. I've been laid off for two and a half months in the first quarter of next year. and that's unpaid. We are also taking a 17 % pay cut. I work for Honda but its the same story at Mercedes BMW Mini, Nissan and everywhere else.[/quote]
which plant were you working at? what stuff do you do?
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
I'm on the Technical Support team at Honda UK Manufacturing in Swindon
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=chunky;680405]^^ I'm sure there's an obvious explanation for this but can someone explain the difference between the banks management and Nick Leeson. He was held accountable and went to prison.[/quote] There is a difference between being held accountable and being convicted of a crime. Nick Leeson committed a crime of fraud; he speculated in unauthorized ways against the policies of his employer and then lied about it (tried to hide it). To date, there has not been a clear body of evidence to indicate that banks intentionally defrauded their investors. The fact that their bets didn't pan out due to systemic problems in the new, highly leveraged sset-backed financial derivatives that they used is not sufficient evidence of criminal activity.
However, banking executives should of course be personally held accountable, even as their organizations are now bailed out at taxpayers' expense. That means they should be forced out of their positions and have their income significantly penalized by their boards as any employee would for sub-par performance.
When shit blows up like it has recently, it's tempting to wish to single out one or two individuals and blame them for it. But when we get into big messes like this, the ugly reality is that we got into the big mess precisely because it wasn't just a few people; it was wide-stale participation by all kinds of groups of people all over the world over a protracted period of time - including the average consumer out there. There is lots of collective blame to go around for the world in which we currently find ourselves.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
Hey Miro i'm not prejudice hell put the Autos on the chopping block as well. But lets try to keep some sort of balance. You can't hand over $1.8 Trillion to banks and nobody gets in trouble and then turn to the big three for only $25 B and say "hey you guys are fucked up and eat it."
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
[quote=Miroslav;679575]Actually, I don't have a single one. I just have an understanding of: (1) the role that major banks like Citi - one of the few largest in the nation - play in the global economy; and (2) the unfortunate structure and situation that has resulted from allowing those major banks to become over-leveraged with relatively new and unregulated financial tools and techniques. If you want a primer, let me know.[/quote] +1 This is all true +the car manufacturers have been bailed out once before was it early 80's or late 70's not sure but that was a mistake IMO and I hope they don't make the same mistake twice.
On the other hand I am not up for giving free money either. . .there should be tighter regulations on trading and the workings of the system should be transparent to all who are interested. + there should be a government organization that evaluates the quality of debt i.e. the likelihood of loan defaults.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
^^ ok, fair enough. And I hear what you're saying. There is a gross element of unfairness when we get into this unfortunate situation where the government chooses who gets bailed out and who doesn't, because you know that there is just not enough to go around to everyone who needs it. Added to that you have the sad fact that those who arguably deserve the bailouts the least are the ones who need them most to ensure our own safety. It sucks. All I can tell you is what I've said before: banks own a special place in the economic foodchain, because the movement of capital is the lifeblood of the economy. Take away the banks, and everything else will shut down fast. I won't belabor the point.
But honestly, I suspect that they will end up bailing out the car manufacturers in some form. Even though I think they probably shouldn't...the only entities that should be bailed out are those that are paramount to the survival of the overall economic system - and that doesn't even include all financial intermediaries, only certain ones.
Re: Citi Now to get Bailed Out But Auto's Still get the Shaft
that bailout as you call it for autos back in the 80's was not a bailout it was a loan that the government got paid back on. So if your not for making money then ya this is a bad idea. See this is the fundamental problem about this is that not enough people know the facts. This $25 Bil is another loan like back in the 80's compared to a trillion dollars in toxic assets that aren't worth the paper they are written on.
Also unemployment in the US would rise overnight to depression levels of 18%. 1 in 10 jobs in the US come from autos causing more foreclosures (more banking problems). Miro you would probably be for this so that way we can just keep giving the banks more money.