that is very funny skahound

humor is the ultimate reconcilor isnt it

be tactful with irony and you will always find followers

i like it

but really, this is serious and my anger is justifiable...i care about what happens to people...

the flourishing of the species is more important than the ploriferation of it

i will post again later...thankyou palmer and terry for at least recogninzing my anger as not being some Liberal spew like these other people...

this is about the species health and well being...it is not about nationalism, nor about religion, nor is it about some stupid opinion...

its about science....

talk to you later

[quote=palmer] well is obviously furious .... just as I was not but 7hrs ago. once the anger settles I believe he has some good ideas to share.[/quote]

Completely agreed. It's not the content, it's the delivery.

it is funny. i do wanna admit that i did want kerry to win.

i also reacted upon the first post of this thread.

so i am also a bad boy. :(

I do take consolation in the fact that never in history has there been a person that has divided this country the way Bush has. He has narrowly won 2 elections and has had to wait until after election day to achieve victory both times. I would loathe knowing that there are that many people out there that hate me. But I'm gonna guess that he could really give 2 shits!

[quote=Terry]the only thing that hes right about is that you moronic country re elected a guy who has run 2 businesses into the ground driven your dollar ridiculously low and killed millions of your people for an unjust cause. enjoy the next few years of your life, they will be interesting[/quote]

I probably shouldn't even acknowledge this post, but in the interest of fact.....

Moronic country? Canada is just in denial, you only wish your country was anything like ours. Ran 2 businesses to the ground? Once again you have no idea what in the hell your talking about. And killed millions of "our own" people, thats just a retarded statement if I ever did hear one. Perhaps you were thinking of Saddam.

They will be interesting, yes, the only part of your post that makes any sense at all. And we will enjoy it very much as we see your healthcare system finally crumble to the ground. :wink:

it really has been a ruff four years in America. I only hope "he" take this country and fix the problems within. I also hope his war in Iraq will be stopped, and he can start fixing all the holes in the walls that he has made.

I really hope. really hope.

:Anal: Well we are all :EvilFlic: With keeping Push puss in the BUSH.Hope all that voted for that losser are happy.Now we are in for 4 years of Hell. :evil: .And how maney young solders must die in this war that Bush started.This really shows how brain washed Bush has most of the USA.All i hope in for God to Bless the USA.I really don't know what's going to happen with all the Republicans to another two years of control over the House of Representatives.If you thought thing's were bad.Well all bush fans will see,whats going to happen!!!!! :evil:

"Why were we in this fight in the first place? Because terrible leaders are doing terrible things to our country and calling this wonderful. Because radical reactionaries are trying to impose their imperialist schemes on whoever they wish and calling this just. Because amoral oligarchs are determined to enhance their slice of the economic pie and calling this the natural order. Because flag-wrapped ideologues want to chop up civil liberties and call this security. Because myopians are in charge of America?s future.

We lost on 11/2. Came in second place in a crucial battle whose damage may still be felt decades from now. The despicable record of our foes makes our defeat good reason for disappointment and fear. Even without a mandate over the past four years, they have behaved ruthlessly at home and abroad, failing to listen to objections even from members of their own party. With the mandate of a 3.6-million vote margin, one can only imagine how far their arrogance will take them in their efforts to dismantle 70 years of social legislation and 50+ years of diplomacy.

Still, Tuesday was only one round in the struggle. It?s only the end if we let it be. I am not speaking solely of challenging the votes in Ohio or elsewhere ? indeed, I think even successful challenges are unlikely to change the ultimate outcome, which is not to say I don?t think the Democrats should make the attempt. And I?m not just talking about evaluating in depth what went wrong, then building on what was started in the Dean campaign to reinvigorate the grassroots of the Democratic Party, although I also think we must do that. I?m talking about the broader political realm, the realm outside of electoral politics that has always pushed America to live up to its best ideals and overcome its most grotesque contradictions.

Not a few people have spoken in the past few hours about an Americanist authoritarianism emerging out of the country?s current leadership. I think that?s not far-fetched. Fighting this requires that we stick together, not bashing each other, not fleeing or hiding or yielding to the temptation of behaving as if ?what?s the use??

It?s tough on the psyche to be beaten.Throughout our country?s history, abolitionists, suffragists, union organizers, anti-racists, antiwarriors, civil libertarians, feminists and gay rights activists have challenged the majority of Americans to take off their blinders. Each succeeded one way or another, but not overnight, and certainly not without serious setbacks.

After a decent interval of licking our wounds and pondering what might have been and where we went wrong, we need to spit out our despair and return ? united - to battling those who have for the moment outmaneuvered us. Otherwise, we might just as well lie down in the street and let them flatten us with their schemes."

who wrote that?

It's entitled "Don't Mourn, Organize", and it was written by 'Meteor Blades' from Daily Kos. [url]http://www.dailykos.com/[/url]

Extremely eloquently put.

i agree it is very well written. a wacky point of view, but hey it is the USA of so he does have his God given right. I guess it is always nice to have those people around, make sure this place does not go into a rotting hell.

[img]http://us.news1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/rids/20041102/i/r492677992.jpg[/img]

"THANKS FOR CALLING, SENATOR"

fucking cracked me up. (drudge)

[quote=Terry]... and killed millions of your people for an unjust cause...[/quote]

you've made a great point Terry. Seeing the twin towers fall and kill over 4000 people because of a terrorist attack isn't a good reason to fight back, is it? try rethinking your comment. or just don't think.

It is...at first I though: "wow Lobster, didn't know you had become such an eloquent and intelligently speaking man overnight?"

But I was wrong...too bad for you, but this way the world still makes sense to me. :mrgreen:

meteor blades is right in his assessment...however, the system itself needs reevaluation...much likes Nietzsche's "transvaluation of values...." we need a 100% overhaul for things to start taking a more rational shape

i think the anger, the mourning, and the indignation should not rest for diplomacy....i think we need radical reform, i think that there are much more significan cultural historical forces that are causing our overall lack of communication and reason that need to be changed

we have to change our fundamental underlying value system to truly start looking at our ecology and our species in a sustaniable healthy way

we cannot ride on the coat tails of our christian inheritance, we cannot define our human relationships constantlly in terms of profit and loss, we cannot continue to think that political boundaries really do exist...last time i heard we were once pangea, last time i heard the earth is like 5 billion years old, and our particular species homo sapiens sapiens only about two houndred thousand, last time i heard hominids only about 4 to 5 millions years old....i think that political boundaries will long be forgotten when this particular species gives way to entropy

so lets start being RATIONAL, forget about nations!!! America does not exist, it is a figment of your imagination, it is our cultural inheritance from milliions of idiots who didnt know better

and another thing, last time i heard my DNA was about 98% mathematically similar to that of a chimpanzee, so i think that the dna between me and some mongolian has to be pretty damn close...therefore, mathematically, scientifically, RATIONALLY, I can say that to divide the species into Nations would go against our science!!!

How moronic can you be???

...SO

lets talk about things on a bit different level...lets focus on the Truth, and not get lost in some never ending political discourse where we will lose our minds in dogma

Kerry was only one small step of a possibility for progress..very very small....i resent that we could not even do that right....lets continue to mourn, be angry, because somewhere in that catharses is a way out for our species....obviiously, politics isnt working....we couldnt even get the guy who would be a band aid and allow us some room to gasp

what i DON't understand is how Bush gets elected last term and doesn't win the overall people's vote. This election, his public credibility and acceptance ratings have plummeted, yet the overall people's vote, Bush wins this year. THAT makes no fucking sense at all.

No, it doesn't.

what i dont get is.. with the whole electoral college. it is almost like saying some peoples votes worth less than others.

i mean, why dont they just let the people vote and be done with it.

well, he won the peoples vote.. ok, so that guy won.. but no?

fuck it.. this world is fucked anyway.. regardless of who occupies the white house.

^^^ the most true statement said today.

it really does not matter both Kerry and Bush are part of Skull & Bones aka the Illuminati. We were fucked either way.

we are royally fucked yes we are

so lets not all get diplomatic and pretend like that will change anything..the sentiments I expressed at the beginning of this thread characterize an existential disenfranchised member of a society/species who cannot communicate with his fellow man due to lack of reason that has consumed and ultimately devoured our values of truth and justice...we are all part of a system that does not value reason, but values money, therefore our communication is in itself flawed...

i can be nothing more than an existential OPINION...i cannot be recognized as a moral agent, because there is no actual two dimensional reality where reason provides a common footing (.i.e. argument)

therefore no dialectival movement can be made and therefore no actual morality exists at all

please read Alisdair Mcintyre's "After Virtue" for further clarification...

that, along with the anything by Nietzsche, some Aristotle, and The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tze will be the most important books you can read...please check them out

I cannot stress how important it is for us to understand our lack of real communication and how grave it is....

Our entire post modern culture exists because of it, from art to seeing two planes slam into the World Trade Center...extreme irony the common theme!

I think Kerry was not angry enough...that is why he did not strick a chord with the disillusioned...that is why he lost the election

It is time for a much more scientific and philosphical approach to resolving our dilemmas

You do sound a bit Utopian to me man...

Peace will never work. It is the Yin and Yang in life. For evil there is good, and for good there is evil.

why did not those books teach you that? it is the most simple philosophy on this planet. Things exist for a reason, you can accept and do as you wish to either prevent or contribute. You may not put mathematical formulas or explanations to life. Life is different to every eye. It is such a random that science can not define it or explain it. You must have a controlled environment to apply science, and we are far from being controlled.

[quote]You do sound a bit Utopian to me man...[/quote]

exactly. being an idealist is beautiful, yet it is not real. i would love world peace and harmony yet, i do not expect it. as i have stated before, this world to become one nation we would have to be attacked by aliens.

Dystopia is our reality OK??

We can make an inductive argument that Heaven most likely does not exists Ok?? No one has ever been able to prove its existence, from Anselm to Descartes and on and on and on...

I believe a perfect moral system can exist within entropy because we would still die random deaths at the whim of nature, there need only be one variable for entropy to exist

Therefor a perfect moral UTOPIA is possible within our current scientific understanding of nature...we are just energy...but that does not mean we should give up and be fatalistic and nihilistic...we could still avoid humand to human caused suffering, but just wait for the meteor to hit...

death doesnt matter...its the flourshing of the species that does...it does not matter if millions of people keep being born if they endure continued misery

so utopian, yes i am....but it is not a fucking mathematical impossibility...it is not in some other world like these monotheist idiots in Islam and Christianity would love to believe

it can be right here...but i cant happen if we contiue to live in a world based on the individuals proliferation, hoarding of all natural resources, (i.e. capitalism)...it has to be bases on communication, reason, and recognizing that we are a species and our individuality can only be reduced to a small percentage of our genetic component

utopia can happen...it is not caged in a dream, and it does not go against science

[quote=sacredawe78]we are royally fucked yes we are

so lets not all get diplomatic and pretend like that will change anything..the sentiments I expressed at the beginning of this thread characterize an existential disenfranchised member of a society/species who cannot communicate with his fellow man due to lack of reason that has consumed and ultimately devoured our values of truth and justice...we are all part of a system that does not value reason, but values money, therefore our communication is in itself flawed...

i can be nothing more than an existential OPINION...i cannot be recognized as a moral agent, because there is no actual two dimensional reality where reason provides a common footing (.i.e. argument)

therefore no dialectival movement can be made and therefore no actual morality exists at all

please read Alisdair Mcintyre's "After Virtue" for further clarification...

that, along with the anything by Nietzsche, some Aristotle, and The Tao Te Ching by Lao Tze will be the most important books you can read...please check them out

I cannot stress how important it is for us to understand our lack of real communication and how grave it is....

Our entire post modern culture exists because of it, from art to seeing two planes slam into the World Trade Center...extreme irony the common theme!

I think Kerry was not angry enough...that is why he did not strick a chord with the disillusioned...that is why he lost the election

It is time for a much more scientific and philosphical approach to resolving our dilemmas[/quote]

Hey Kafka, open a window, let in some sunshine or something. Sheesh...

For the record, I worked at the polls yesterday as part of Kerry's team of attorneys to make sure that everyone that wanted to vote got the chance to vote. Both of the precincts that were polling at my location turned out over 75% of eligible voters in person -- not counting absentee ballots. It may not be perfect, but I was heartened to see that many people get out to vote, even though I was not a fan of the outcome.

A step in the right direction, at least...

I dunno. But Kerry had a very wonderful heart flet speech just a moment ago. I wish he would of showed that a little more.

Truly beautiful.

/starts to wonder. :|

all your telling me is that more people voted for bush

no reason to rescind what ive been saying

Kafka was part of the existential avant garde...I want liberation from that...ok?

I was about to say the same thing toaster, except Kafka was too much of prestigious writer for sacred awe to be at a basis for comparisson. I mean, I know there are some belligerent people on this board, but your hostility has become nothing short of amazing.

Even if the American people could respect such a viewpoint, how in the hell do you get the rest of the world to comply. What your talking about sacred is a pipedream, calling you utopian is being too fair. Your just delusional. Have you read anything that comes out of the Middle East lately? Allah this, Allah that. These people believe that their god wishes this Jihad, and they will not stop until it reaches some sort of outcome. Be it the end of America, or the end of the propoganda machine that Islam has come to represent. I would tend to give the advantage to the good old US of A, it will not crumble so easily. But until some things in this world drastically change, which won't be anytime soon, why even worry yourself with such delusions of grandeur??

Hitler was angry.

youre comparing me to hitler because im angry

there is nothing morally wrong with being angry...there is nothing morally wrong about calling people out

there is something morally wrong about killing 5 million jews

there is something morally wrong about killing iraquis and exploiting there natural resources

[quote=Civic_Zen]I was about to say the same thing toaster, except Kafka was too much of prestigious writer for sacred awe to be at a basis for comparisson. I mean, I know there are some belligerent people on this board, but your hostility has become nothing short of amazing.

Even if the American people could respect such a viewpoint, how in the hell do you get the rest of the world to comply. What your talking about sacred is a pipedream, calling you utopian is being too fair. Your just delusional. Have you read anything that comes out of the Middle East lately? Allah this, Allah that. These people believe that their god wishes this Jihad, and they will not stop until it reaches some sort of outcome. Be it the end of America, or the end of the propoganda machine that Islam has come to represent. I would tend to give the advantage to the good old US of A, it will not crumble so easily. But until some things in this world drastically change, which won't be anytime soon, why even worry yourself with such delusions of grandeur??[/quote]

they wont change because of people such as yourself who are fatalists, your fatalism is not something i or anyone else can get rid of...we are a species and everything you do affects me and vice versa...there is no moral progess because of your nihilism

ok????

not delusions here...it is a reality

and yes i could never write as well as kafka, but i sure as hell know damn well what he was saying..perhaps you should re read some of his books?? and try to understand what his role is in the entire post modern movement and understand that existensialism and its art forms are really syptoms of a culture that has no basis for rational communication

all i stated was that you are angry. and when you are angry most of the time you do things you regret. be it "words" or "actions", it is know from a physiological stand point you do make the best choices when you are clam and at peace. not when you are disturbed by some political event.

That is coming form a Husband and a Father.

My friend, you have many valid points. but you must use the force wisely. remember Return of the Jedi? Don't join the dark side.

I respect that you have a lot of heart into this, and it has really bummed you out. I understand that. Relax, just talk to us with your heart and not with your emotions. :wink:

I want to hear what you have to say, but I do not want the negative energy around it. Fair?

[quote=asdf_admin]all i stated was that you are angry. and when you are angry most of the time you do things you regret. be it "words" or "actions", it is know from a physiological stand point you do make the best choices when you are clam and at peace. not when you are disturbed by some political event.

That is coming form a Husband and a Father.

My friend, you have many valid points. but you must use the force wisely. remember Return of the Jedi? Don't join the dark side.

I respect that you have a lot of heart into this, and it has really bummed you out. I understand that. Relax, just talk to us with your heart and not with your emotions. :wink:

I want to hear what you have to say, but I do not want the negative energy around it. Fair?[/quote]

look...well continue this conversation a little later...i understand there is a world of irony available in what im saying to satirize, but that in itself is a little too cliche, dont you think?? considering what is at stake, humor only offers temporary pychological relief, it does very little to change anything

i am very pissed off bush won...and probably will be for some time....i cant help it...im sure my anger will turn into somethine more refined as time passes, but this is all part of the process....i hope all of you start getting more proactive...

later

To be completely honest there sacred, I definetely see your POV (Point of View) and in a lot of ways agree with it.

Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change. To a certain extent, this may describe my POV, but it doesn't. Things are never so simple. The only thing I except is human nature, exceptance in fact is not fatalism. I don't believe in fate, we make our own fate. I do however believe in nature, and in some of the things that go with it. The fact remains that humans are a war like people, we need leaders because we cannot think for ourselves. We need to believe in something like god because we are afraid. Fear is the only fear. Except I am not excepting my fate when I say that war will be forever. Its simply a fact, and I say it as a fellow scientist.

I agree with ASDF, it will take aliens to invade us to throw away our problems so that we can finally work together. It will take something bigger then ourselves to come along and make us cooporate or perish. Except then, we haven't eliminated war, only war amongst ourselves. Because at that time we will have created space travel and using wormholes, travel to distance regions of space and confront war in a whole new manner. This is not fatalism. This is truth.

[quote=Civic_Zen] Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change. [/quote]

ACCEPTING :)

[quote=Civic_Zen]To be completely honest there sacred, I definetely see your POV (Point of View) and in a lot of ways agree with it.

Falalism is excepting fate, excepting what you cannot change. To a certain extent, this may describe my POV, but it doesn't. Things are never so simple. The only thing I except is human nature, exceptance in fact is not fatalism. I don't believe in fate, we make our own fate. I do however believe in nature, and in some of the things that go with it. The fact remains that humans are a war like people, we need leaders because we cannot think for ourselves. We need to believe in something like god because we are afraid. Fear is the only fear. Except I am not excepting my fate when I say that war will be forever. Its simply a fact, and I say it as a fellow scientist.

I agree with ASDF, it will take aliens to invade us to throw away our problems so that we can finally work together. It will take something bigger then ourselves to come along and make us cooporate or perish. Except then, we haven't eliminated war, only war amongst ourselves. Because at that time we will have created space travel and using wormholes, travel to distance regions of space and confront war in a whole new manner. This is not fatalism. This is truth.[/quote]

No it is fatalism...you basically just make a circular argument...you started with a conclusion and ended with it...

One thing you did say is true...OK??

that we are always at strife...that is a FACT...i AGREE...BUT....

we can be TACTFUL with our strife, we can argue, we can reduce our omnipresent strife to a stage of reason...THE ARGUMENT...that CAN happen...it does not need to be overextended into causing mass chaos simply because we must be at strife...that is what you fatalism ultimately causes

we have to harness the basic fundamental principles you stated and just live with it...rather than saying "oh thats just your opinion," you should come back at me with full effect and give me an argument...therefore, we would always be DIALECTICAL...we would always be doing what is BEST in a dynamic way...and STILLLL be at one with entropy...ok???

we are at war naturally...FACT,,, BUT...your normative reality says go all out and dont hold back...mine says, be at war through REASON!

i agree with your facts, but your fatalism really is a reality...sorry to say

humans at strife and moral perfection are not mutally exclusive...but that is what you were saying

[quote=Terry][quote=asdf_admin]i will. thank you.

i am very excited for a bright and solid future. :RockOn:[/quote]

i meant as a coutry im sure your future is full fun in oregon :roll:

just kidding boss :D[/quote]

Dude Oregon is an awesome state if you've visited. Comeon Portland is awesome, snowboarding on Mt Hood year round, some of the best kb's ever, and cool people. Im jealous of Asdf being out west, cause he's much better off than Florida.

[quote=Terry]the only thing that hes right about is that you moronic country re elected a guy who has run 2 businesses into the ground driven your dollar ridiculously low and killed millions of your people for an unjust cause. enjoy the next few years of your life, they will be interesting[/quote]

I used to hear many libs complain about how Bush ran the Texas economy in the ground and that Crawford, Tex was proof, because they were the anti-Bush. Well guess what, just like the rest of the country spoke... so did Texas!

I don't think anyone here is being fatalistic, rather realistic. Your views are admirable Sacred, but let me tell you little story:

I'm an Africanistics student, and used to be quite idealistic in my ideas, eg: I wanted to do something about the situation in Africa. During my time at University, I gradually came to understand that changes can occur, but they usually take some time. The bigger the change (or the more radical), the longer it takes. That is natural.

So, I've made up my mind about this, and decided that I will still try and do my good thing for Africa. But I'll keep my goals realistic, and don't expect to see a whole different Africa when I die. Maybe, just maybe, I can plant some seeds in people's minds that will in the end contribute their part to Africa's future, hopefully a brighter one. I'll try to write stories about the continent and if I find the courage, they will be stories about things people oughtta know, but never hear. I'll make pictures of things they don't want you to see. Next summer I'll be visiting Ivory Coast to see if I can stand the heat :wink: Rebels are threatening to resume fighting there, so we'll see...

Point is: try to make the world better as much as you want, but don't try to move Mount Everest with your bare hands man. Keep it reel, keep it small, and get it done. And don't expect to see any big changes in your lifetime, 'cause you'll end up very, very dissapointed.

:Rasta Ba: peace!

To any of the mods: Can we get maybe one or two black smileys? I'd really like that...African smileyz. :Naughty:

yao,

thank you for sharing your experiences with me...i respect what you are doing in Africa...i know that it is very very messed over there right now, especially in the Sudan..please tell me more of your experiences

however, with respect to your analysis of what ive said, ill say that despite my lofty ambitions, i ultimately am only making a small difference here...so i already have achieved what you suggested....but i cannot be guided by convenience...that would be ignorance to some extent

you seem to have a very spiritual/tactful undertstanding of how to deal with frustration...and I agree to some degree...but i dont think that the weight of the Truth, especially when it comes to moral chaos, can be preserved or contained to chew off small bits at once....i think that the net result of my actions here will be too small as it is...i think it is up to me decide if i would like to harness the burden of eyeing such overwhelminginly difficult ideas and i do..because im fucking tired of human suffering and the destruction of our world

thanks again though, let me know how your efforts are with Africa...and fill me in with new information

good night