Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

#1222546Post 41 of 1022009-05-21

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=runningman;751382]The rhetoric is getting more intense.

[/quote]

now they just have to decide which January?

#1222617Post 42 of 1022009-05-21

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

well I didn't want to start a new thread.. Israel is pissed and all this talk about a two state solution reminds me of japan and the US in peace talks before pearl harbor.

#1222673Post 43 of 1022009-05-21

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

right yes...so your theory is what? That Iran is going to attack Israel?!?

#1222686Post 44 of 1022009-05-21

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

my theory is that peace in the middle east won't happen, which will eventually result in a war between between Israel and the middle east. Dragging all of us into it.

My theory is not Iran attacking Israel but Israel attacking iran.

#1222765Post 45 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

yeah. . .possible but I can't see anyone getting involved to help Israel if they start shit.

#1222786Post 46 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Wanna bet?? Don't doubt the Israel influence in the US..

#1222809Post 47 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=Shpira;751799]yeah. . .possible but I can't see anyone getting involved to help Israel if they start shit.[/quote]

really? why is that

#1222903Post 48 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Because of the current economic situation and the impact on oil prices such a conflict will have. Because the US administration is finally starting to realize the fact that the only way Israel will be satisfied is if it wipes out all of its Arab neighbors. Because Iran is not Iraq and is a hell of a lot better equipped...the west can not afford to get involved in a conflict with a nation that has been supplied by some of the latest Russian weaponry including high end AA systems (both financially and in casualties). Because the west is already being challenged as a dominant force and a open conflict will decrease its chance of coming out victorious. Finally because the majority of public opinion would not support such a war.

#1222978Post 49 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=Shpira;751958]Because the US administration is finally starting to realize the fact that the only way Israel will be satisfied is if it wipes out all of its Arab neighbors.[/quote]

And your evidence of Israel wanting to wipe out its Arab neighbors is where exactly?

Its all very well and good coming out with rhetoric, back your statement up some type of empirical evidence please, or STFU.

#1222988Post 50 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

Well from the founding fathers of Israel till today this hasn't changed. There was never much support for a two state solution on the Israel's side. Iran has made first steps towards recognizing Israel but the AIPAC influence is simply too powerful...they would prefer Israel to maintain its importance in US foreign policy. Importance which has drastically diminished since the end of the Cold War.

Anyway I am not going to argue about an issue you feel so strongly about. if you want to know where I get the bulk of my opinions on this topic read [I]"Plowshares into Swords; from Zionism to Israel"[/I] by Arno J. Mayer (a Jewish Professor at Princeton) and [I]"Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"[/I] by John Mersheimer and Stephan Walt.

You most likely will not bother reading this...so here is an interview with the authors of one of the books (I already posted it in another thread)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FSXZNm2jGVE[/YOUTUBE]

#1223001Post 51 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

shpira it is kind of hard to like your neighbours when the muslim brotherhood is very much alive and well today. The Muslim Brotherhood is the biggest threat to stability in the region not Israel.

#1223032Post 52 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=Shpira;752049] You most likely will not bother reading this [/quote]

I've already read that book thanks, but that does'nt answer my question - rhetoric aside, what evidence do you have that Israel won't be satisfied etc.....?

Stop trying to quote second rate, at best, literature, and back up your previous statement.

And don't worry, I always read threads that I participate in.

#1223040Post 53 of 1022009-05-22

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=runningman;752064]shpira it is kind of hard to like your neighbours when the muslim brotherhood is very much alive and well today. The Muslim Brotherhood is the biggest threat to stability in the region not Israel.[/quote]

The Reason that they are a threat today is Israel.

[quote]I've already read that book thanks, but that does'nt answer my question - rhetoric aside, what evidence do you have that Israel won't be satisfied etc.....?[/quote]You read what book?

If you had read the first book then you would know what I mean...I really can't be bothered to go through the book and quote historical references of the early Zionist movement. The Book by Arno J. Mayer starts in the 1800's and traces the creation of Israel quoting references from letter's from the early Zionists as well as those from world leaders at the time. Read the Book.

anyway going out now... sorry can't write a more extensive response at this time.

p.s. I am not running away from the discussion I will give you some "evidence" later

#1223062Post 54 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=Shpira;752115] You read what book? [/quote]

The Mersheimer and Walt book.

Quoting history is not evidence of what is going on today. You claimed, that Israel would not be happy unless they wipe out their Arab neighbors - and yet, you can offer no evidence whatsoever that that is their intention.

[quote=Shpira;752115]anyway going out now... sorry can't write a more extensive response at this time.

p.s. I am not running away from the discussion I will give you some "evidence" later[/quote]

Mmmm, really! Well before you reply, maybe you would like to pay some attention to all the opportunities the Palestinians have had to have their own home land. While you're at it, pay particular attention to Iran - you have naively stated:

[quote]Iran has made first steps towards recognizing Israel [/quote]Is this the same Iran that has called for Israels destruction? Maybe you would like to offer us a reference to this statement?

And while you're at it, has you well know Hamas won the last parlimentary election in the PA, maybe you would furnish us with any evidence from Hamas that they are prepared for a two state solution.

You seem very well equiped to quote the anti-israel brigade whilst ignoring the reality of the situation - might I suggest that unless you can actually back up some of your comments with empirical evidence you desist immediatly - afterall its a bitch to get your ass wiped in an open forum.

#1223086Post 55 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

^^^ Which open forum are you reading.??? I see really useful information, and a clarity of thought coming from Shpira.!

What I get from you is "If you don't agree with me, you are anti-Israel , anti-jew etc. " Fortunately a lot of Jews are actually a lot more open to discussion than you are.

Btw What greater evidence could you have about Israel's attitude than the horrific happenings in Palestine ??

Great Vid Shpira !!!

#1223117Post 56 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=DIDI;752171] What I get from you is "If you don't agree with me, you are anti-Israel , anti-jew etc. " Fortunately a lot of Jews are actually a lot more open to discussion than you are. [/quote]

Really. I have five years of postings for you back up that comment - please show me where if anyone has disageed with me I have called them anti-Israel or anti-Jewish?

I don't give a shit whether you are anti-israel or anti-jew. What i care about is making glib comments without anything to back them up.

Now before you get your knickers in a twist, lets actually go back and see what I queried, and asked for information on:

[quote]Because the US administration is finally starting to realize the fact that the only way Israel will be satisfied is if it wipes out all of its Arab neighbors.[/quote]Now, where is the evidence that Israel will only be satisfied if it wipes out its Arab neighbors? Come on. I'm waiting Didi.

Shipra has offered no clarity of thought, all he/she has done is thrown out a blanket statement with absolutely nothing to back it, in the hope that it sticks.

Well it doesn't. Back it up or like I said earlier STFU.

#1223118Post 57 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

^^ I don't have anything to prove , one of the reasons I haven't engaged with you in these forums before is your blindness to all bar your own viewpoint. I think that was probably a good strategy :lol: You could put mountains of evidence in front of you and you would be blind to it. !!

Btw Knickers totally untwisted :lol:

#1223120Post 58 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[quote=DIDI;752206]^^ I don't have anything to prove , one of the reasons I haven't engaged with you in these forums before is your blindness to all bar your own viewpoint. I think that was probably a good strategy :lol: You could put mountains of evidence in front of you and you would be blind to it. !!

Btw Knickers totally untwisted :lol:[/quote] ' And yet you offer nothing. No proof to your comments about

[quote]"If you don't agree with me, you are anti-Israel , anti-jew etc.[/quote]Speak on here to anyone I have debated with before and you will realise fools i dont suffer gladly - but back up your comments, and we can debate - for unless you offer that back up it would be like debating George W Bush, you know the right words in the right order, but you can't actually tell me why you are sprouting them.

And pleased to hear about the untwisted knickers :twisted: :twisted:

#1223217Post 59 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

According to your logic one could never prove anything in social sciences. If history is no proof what is???

[quote]Is this the same Iran that has called for Israels destruction? Maybe you would like to offer us a reference to this statement?[/quote]They actually argue that Israel should not exist and this is a classic example of twisting the words they use. If someone is anti - Zionist he is not necessarily anti-Semitic.

And anyway...Iran has called for Israel destruction and Israel has not called for Iran' destruction right? You are so blinded by your personal beliefs that they have clouded your thought. Of course I can't prove that EVERYONE in Israel wants to sort out the Arabs in the region...just like you can't prove that everyone in Iran wants to destroy Israel.

What I can prove is that historically speaking no real attempt has ever been made on Israel's part to secure peace with the Palestinians or that there was never any real popular support for a two state solution. My statement is based on Israels foreign policy actions over the years and the behavior of those who consider themselves to be acting in Israels interest as well as elected officials. Any real peace that was achieved between the Arab's and the Jews has been reached because of Western involvement and Western pressure on both sides. . .an now the West seems to have forgotten that. I really don't have to prove anything as we can all see that Israels looking for a conflict with Iran...and we all here agree that Israel is going to invade Iran not the other way around...that kinda demonstrates that Israel is looking for a conflict with an Arab nation wouldn't you say? . . .so what more do you need...

My point is that Israels actions are just as bad; and that if war broke out I wouldn't care who won as both sides are equally deluded. . .just like you are. Asking for empirical evidence about social theory. Hand me my ass back please lol.

And for the record if you can't have a civilised debate and have to resort to insults than I really have nothing to "debate" about with you.

I just think its really sad...the Jewish people were given land to settle in and create a state in large part due to all the prosecution they have experianced around the world and then what do they do...Thye create camps for refugees and war against the people that lived on the same land. Just goes to show that people really don't learn anything from their experiances.

#1223218Post 60 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[QUOTE]Quoting history is not evidence of what is going on today.[/QUOTE]

For the record I totally disagree with this statement.

#1223274Post 61 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[COLOR=White][quote=Shpira;752335]If history is no proof what is??? [/quote]

History is the understanding of past events, you were clearly talking about the present, in which you claimed that Israel would only be happy when she has destroyed her Arab neighbors - you still have not offered any shred of evidence that this is what Israel wants.

[quote=Shpira;752335]They actually argue that Israel should not exist and this is a classic example of twisting the words they use. If someone is anti - Zionist he is not necessarily anti-Semitic.

And anyway...Iran has called for Israel destruction and Israel has not called for Iran' destruction right? [/quote] [/COLOR] [COLOR=White] [/COLOR] [COLOR=White]On 26th October 2005, IRIB News, an English-language subsidiary of the state-controlled Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting ran a story on Iranian Presidents speech to the"World without Zionism" conference in Asia. The story was entitled: [I]Ahmadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map[/I].

[quote=Shpira;752335]You are so blinded by your personal beliefs that they have clouded your thought. Of course I can't prove that EVERYONE in Israel wants to sort out the Arabs in the region...just like you can't prove that everyone in Iran wants to destroy Israel.[/quote]

Really, and what do you know of my personal beliefs?

I never asked you to prove that Everyone in Israel, i asked you to back up a statement which you made clearly about Israels political leadership and its intentions towards it neighbors. Like wise I have never claimed that Iranians want to destroy Israel, just their leadership.

[quote=Shpira;752335]What I can prove is that historically speaking no real attempt has ever been made on Israel's part to secure peace with the Palestinians or that there was never any real popular support for a two state solution.[/quote]

Following the 1967 war, eight Arab nations gathered in Khartoum and issued their “Three No’s.” No peace with Israel . No recognition of Israel . No negotiations with Israel.

Since then Israel has ceded territory to both Egypt and Jordan for peace treaties.

In 2000 Yasser Arafat rejected a deal that would have allowed them everything they were asking for, including East Jerusalem. According to US President Clinton "I regret that in 2000 Arafat missed the opportunity to bring that nation into being and pray for the day when the dreams of the Palestinian people for a state and a better life will be realized in a just and lasting peace."

So please don;t tell me my country hasn't gone out of its way to bring an to the situation between it and its Palestinian neigbors!

[quote=Shpira;752335]I just think its really sad...the Jewish people were given land to settle in and create a state in large part due to all the prosecution they have experianced around the world and then what do they do...Thye create camps for refugees and war against the people that lived on the same land. Just goes to show that people really don't learn anything from their experiances.[/quote]

It also shows that you have absolutely no knowledge about what your are talking about.

Firstly, Israel were not given anything - for over 3500 years there as been a Jewish presence in Israel - so don't you dare tell me we were given anything.

Camps were not created by Israel but by the UN in the earlier 50's, additionally you should know that in Israel (and for this I am not incorporating the West Bank) Israeli Arabs have full equality within Israeli society. With over 10% of the Knesset membership, Israeli Arabs have the exact same right in Israel as Israeli Jews have.[/COLOR]

#1223282Post 62 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

[QUOTE]Firstly, Israel were not given anything - for over 3500 years there as been a Jewish presence in Israel - so don't you dare tell me we were given anything.

Camps were not created by Israel but by the UN in the earlier 50's, additionally you should know that in Israel (and for this I am not incorporating the West Bank) Israeli Arabs have full equality within Israeli society. With over 10% of the Knesset membership, Israeli Arabs have the exact same right in Israel as Israeli Jews have. [/QUOTE] [COLOR=LemonChiffon] yeah ok rofl I have nothing to say to you...you built your own nation from nothing even though Israel was under British protectorate and Arabs are just a bunch of crazies deluding themselves about how they are treated...and all those dead Arabs are not really dead..

You were effectivly given Israel by the British. The Jewish people may have fought for it through lobbying and later through terrorism but you were given it. The British controled the influx of the jews from Europe and they (along with the French) effectivly created the borders of all middle eastern nations. If they had not controled it i.e. if it was an Arab state at the time you think that such a great influx of Jews would be allowed? Don't be silly...you were given it. The original Zionists were offered land in Africa originally but they rejected it and in the end they were given Israel...the tipping point being WW2. For 3500 years there was a pressence thats great...there are ethnic Gypsies all over Europe for thousands of years but they haven't been given a state.

pre ww1 there was less than 60k jews in Palestine comapred to some 750k Arabs so don't tell me you were not given the land...no the arabs left of their own free will and the jews came to take their place right?

1930 - 175k jews vs 840 k arabs and then in 1934-1935 it was going up at a rate of 60 k a month...you were not given a state my ass.

It is now very clear that you have some of your facts very wrong...thats probably why you think history is not important in determining the shape of the present and the future.

As for the Arab- Israeli wars...what the hell do you expect lol. A foreign people come and occupy your holy land... how the hell would you react? Its their holy land as much as it is your...it is a shame both sides generally fail to understand that. The process of dehumanization of the "other" is very strong on both sides.

Einstain was so right when he said that should Zionism "be unabel to find a way to honest cooperation and honest pacts with Arabs, we shall have learned nothing from our 2000 years of suffering and will deserve our fate"

The Jewish people should have made attempts to create a two state system from the start but this NEVER happened.

I am not going to write essays for you to evaluate as far as I am concerned my oppinion is that should Israel attack Iran its going to suffer heavy casualties ... no one will help openly and the UN will end up having to come in and control a peace settlement. As a result of this many people will understand that it is Israel who is responding to provocation and attacking first so they will turn against it...in oppinion that is...and then Israel is screwed. Without the west its really not much at all...

p.s. the only real attempt to make peace with the Arab's are the Camp David accords and those were signed with huge US pressure...

[/COLOR]

#1223284Post 63 of 1022009-05-23

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

something to read on the main topic of this thread

[url]http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/17/opinion/17goldberg.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&sq=jeffrey%20goldberg&st=cse&scp=4[/url]

#1229514Post 64 of 1022009-06-03

Re: Israel or US to Bomb Iran before January

this was definitely an interesting opinion/read for the most part.

[quote=Shpira;752411][COLOR=LemonChiffon] yeah ok rofl I have nothing to say to you...you built your own nation from nothing even though Israel was under British protectorate and Arabs are just a bunch of crazies deluding themselves about how they are treated...and all those dead Arabs are not really dead..