from Andrew Sullivan,

[INDENT][QUOTE] [INDENT]What McCain and Palin are doing now makes the Clinton campaign look tame. It occurs to me that they are "legitimizing" putting Obama's life in danger by pushing this nonsense. The first potential Black President is always going to have that problem, hell Bush had people trying to take him out, I'm sure, but this is really raising the threat level. Saying your opponent is unfit is one thing, suggesting that he is a evil, a friend of terrorists and a [I]danger[/I] to the United States is something else entirely. [/INDENT]They [I]know[/I] what they're doing. [/QUOTE]

This never occured to me. I think it has been discussed quite thoroughly on here that there is no lack of white supremacists who would do what it takes to do the unthinkable and unmentionable. I understand that this is politics as usual, but I think McPalin is stepping over the line on this one. People are as deranged and delusional as ever. Someone in a crowed, in response to Palin saying Obama is "palling around with terrorists" shouted, "kill him!" It's too early to tell on this one, but I'm getting the feeling that they're instigating what could be a very tragic situation. This is no different than telling your drunk friend that the stranger at the end of a bar was feeling up his girlfriend. Only a thousand times worse.

[/INDENT]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

yup. i completely agree.

my dad has been saying it for months that if obama gets elected or even comes as close as he is, that there will be attempts on his life... and there already were... thank god they haven't come to full fruition but still..

mcpalin are definitely taking it further by saying he is on the same wavelength as terrorists.

if they cant beat him legitimately, might as well push people to kill him =\

Re: the 'danger' of obama

I'm extremely disappointed in McPalin. They are stooping to the lowest tier of immaturity.

Do they do doubles for Obama? Hell, politics aside, what ever happens to him... he has already made an immense impact on people for the better IMHO.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

It's [I]pathetic[/I] to me that on our most important national stage for the determination of the top office, the dialogue by high profile people consists of concerted attempts to slander Obama as a terrorist sympathizer - and at this point in the campaign, when we've been through all of this crap already! We've got the worst economic crisis perhaps ever, a whole slew of tough domestic policy issues, and many foreign policy challenges. No shortage of material for credible debate. And what do they feed us?? Some thoroughly manipulated and misrepresented boogie monster scare tactic bullshit.

And this is the way McCain and Palin hope to get my vote for their leadership? How stupid do they think I am?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

We have reached a new low in the elections, doesn't surprise me at all that the McPalin's have run out of ideas (ok we'll they never had any good one's to begin with), but it is really insulting even for their own party, really do republican males really think that this glorified soccer mom is going to help lead the country out of this mess ? does her smirks and winks bring any to the table?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Some of the vitriol coming out of the McPalin supporters is really troubling, because it seems to very clearly be fueled by hate and anger:

[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/06/mccain-does-nothing-as-cr_n_132366.html[/url]

I hope this gets out, and I really hope there is some backlash from within the campaign. I do not believe that the vast majority of McCain supporters would find this sort of thing acceptable, and the campaign needs to do something to tamp this shit down before it gets out of hand. I would think some weaker McCain supporters might have trouble voting for him just to avoid aligning themselves with such trash.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

good God people, he is a terrorist sympathizer. i do not condone or think he should even be threatened, much less harmed.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

^ REALLY?

in the end, McCain has destroyed what shreds of a decent honorable reputation he once had.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=shosh;659575]good God people, he is a terrorist sympathizer. i do not condone or think he should even be threatened, much less harmed.[/quote] That is bullshit. I see no compelling evidence to support your claim.

1. He was young - I think they say 8 - when Ayers was running around bombing stuff.

2. He served on a public board with him. That board is legitimate and continues to exist. It is populated by many high profile individuals, including former US senators and top leadership of certain corporations.

3. Ayers and his wife (also a former Weatherman) are now University professors at Northwestern and U. of Illinois. They have national reputations and lecture at schools all over the country. I'm not saying that what they did was good, but clearly no one in the public or private spheres appeared to consider them terrorists anymore until this campaign started. And plenty of people interact with them every day. The Chicago mayor knows Ayers and has worked with him. Is he a terrorist sympathizer by association, too?

You can question Obama's judgment and fitness to lead on the issues. But don't you think you're a desperately grasping at straws to actually call him a terrorist based on this association? Come on now...don't let yourself be so biased by your political agenda that you have to invent reasons to hate him.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=Miroslav;659673]That is bullshit. I see no compelling evidence to support your claim.

1. He was young - I think they say 8 - when Ayers was running around bombing stuff.

[COLOR=Red]Ayers feels no remorse about this and does not regret it: ''I don't regret setting bombs,'' Bill Ayers said. ''I feel we didn't do enough.'' also "I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable."[/COLOR]

2. He served on a public board with him. That board is legitimate and continues to exist. It is populated by many high profile individuals, including former US senators and top leadership of certain corporations.

[COLOR=Red]They are also friends.[/COLOR]

3. Ayers and his wife (also a former Weatherman) are now University professors at Northwestern and U. of Illinois. They have national reputations and lecture at schools all over the country. I'm not saying that what they did was good, but clearly no one in the public or private spheres appeared to consider them terrorists anymore until this campaign started. And plenty of people interact with them every day. The Chicago mayor knows Ayers and has worked with him. Is he a terrorist sympathizer by association, too? [COLOR=Red] [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]It doesnt say anything about their character. Someone who has done what they have should not be allowed to teach.

Also, how much do you know about the Chicago/Illinois political machine? They are all corrupt and inter-connected, so yeah he is also a terrorist sympathizer.[/COLOR]

You can question Obama's judgment and fitness to lead on the issues. But don't you think you're a desperately grasping at straws to actually call him a terrorist based on this association? Come on now...don't let yourself be so biased by your political agenda that you have to invent reasons to hate him.[/quote] [COLOR=Red] [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

The McCain camp is definitely going negative mostly because they are behind and have to do something. I don't see it any more negative then some of the other things that have been already been brought up. This time Palin seems to be the pitbull in lipstick doing the attacking.

I'd prefer both candidates to not go negative and run on the issues. I think Obama's best plan is to be above all the negativity and act Presidential.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=shosh;659679] [COLOR=red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR][/quote] I really don't care that Obama associated with Ayers. Maybe Ayers shouldn't have been allowed to teach, but society at large has deemed it fit for him to assume such a role, for whatever reason. He seems to be a well-accepted member of society in the eyes of many. Literally thousands of business people, students, professors and politicians and have associated with Ayers and his wife. To call them all "terrorist sympathizers" by association...that seems smart to you? [I]Really?[/I] And you wonder why McCain is behind in the election right now?

And besides, McCain has his own questionable past associations that we could discuss at length. If you want to talk "character" as far as that goes, we can go on with this for quite a while.

I really would have thought that if society has validated Ayers and his wife for the last 40 years as legitimate citizens, then you'd be able to find more intelligent criticisms of Obama than to call him and anyone else who has associated in any forum with Ayers a "terrorist". But then again, I guess it's not surprising considering that to right-wingers and Republicans, anyone who doesn't see it their way and want to fight in Iraq is a "terrorist sympathizer" (they must HATE FREEDOM!). :lol:

Re: the 'danger' of obama

the irony that shosh is so 'fraid of nazism, communism, and thier ideologies, yet uses the very tools, ie guilt by tenuous association, that perpetuate such despotic regimes, is hilarious.

McCain talked with the communist vietnamese, and became friends with some of his captors. SEE! SEE! I can do it too!!!!!

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659679][COLOR=Red] [/COLOR][COLOR=Red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Dude, this whole "Ayers is the boogeyman" thing is just not borne out by reality. Although clearly, no one is condoning the man he once was and you may not agree with his political beliefs, current or former, I'm unaware of anything that he has done in, oh, I don't know, ALMOST 4 DECADES, that anyone has a problem with. He's gone on to be a productive member of society. If he were the monster he's made out to be, he wouldn't be asked to serve on the boards of charities, or speak regularly, or be a tenured professor at a major university.

You hate Obama, and his "association" with Ayers fits into your pre-conceived notion that Obama is a secret terrorist. For those of us in the fact-based world, though, it's just preposterous. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago, or 20 years ago? A lot has happened in the last 40 years...

Re: the 'danger' of obama

1. Palin is a misinformed, ignorant, whiny spoiled little brat (i swear her voce is like nails on a blackboard)

2. the use of the word 'terrorist' is widely misused nowadays

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=toasty;659694]Dude, this whole "Ayers is the boogeyman" thing is just not borne out by reality. Although clearly, no one is condoning the man he once was and you may not agree with his political beliefs, current or former, I'm unaware of anything that he has done in, oh, I don't know, ALMOST 4 DECADES, that anyone has a problem with. He's gone on to be a productive member of society. If he were the monster he's made out to be, he wouldn't be asked to serve on the boards of charities, or speak regularly, or be a tenured professor at a major university.

You hate Obama, and his "association" with Ayers fits into your pre-conceived notion that Obama is a secret terrorist. For those of us in the fact-based world, though, it's just preposterous. Are you the same person you were 10 years ago, or 20 years ago? A lot has happened in the last 40 years...[/quote]

[COLOR=Red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659697][COLOR=Red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Bill Ayers circa 1969? Of course not.

Bill Ayers circa 2008? Hard to say, because I don't know enough about the guy, but assuming he no longer intends to bomb anyone or anything, I'm not going to hold against him something he did 40 years ago if he otherwise has something productive to offer. I have many friends -- and I think most people are like this -- with whom I have serious differences of opinion on some issues, but with whom I have other things in common. For all I know, Bill Ayers makes the finest bratwurst in the land, and if that's the case, I'm not going to turn down an invite to his BBQ because he was a radical in the 60's.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=toasty;659701]Bill Ayers circa 1969? Of course not.

Bill Ayers circa 2008? Hard to say, because I don't know enough about the guy, but assuming he no longer intends to bomb anyone or anything, I'm not going to hold against him something he did 40 years ago if he otherwise has something productive to offer. I have many friends -- and I think most people are like this -- with whom I have serious differences of opinion on some issues, but with whom I have other things in common. For all I know, Bill Ayers makes the finest bratwurst in the land, and if that's the case, I'm not going to turn down an invite to his BBQ because he was a radical in the 60's.[/quote]

Really?

[COLOR=Red]''I don't regret setting bombs, I feel we didn't do enough.'' "I've thought about this a lot. Being almost 60, it's impossible to not have lots and lots of regrets about lots and lots of things, but the question of did we do something that was horrendous, awful? ... I don't think so. I think what we did was to respond to a situation that was unconscionable."[/COLOR]

hmm ok bro

on another note... fucked up that its spreading across the borders: [URL="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1070975/Man-shot-times-street-racist-gunman--wearing-Barack-Obama-T-shirt.html"]London: Man shot three times in street by racist gunman - for wearing Barack Obama T-shirt [/URL]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

yeah toasty, would you turn down an offer to join a philanthropic organization board of directorship position because of a person you had not been previously associated with, who forty years ago had been involved in an attack on an authoritarian government that was forcing men to give up thier lives to fight for the perpetuation of the authoritarian government itself, if you knew that people would paint you two as life long sexual-political soulmates?

yeah, i guess if shosh were to ask me this, i probably would not join if i knew i had to deal with such fucked up persons trying to revise history and make me look like an ass. welp, i guess this really puts obama's judgment in question because you know, as it turns out, he accepted the position, despite what was clearly contrary to the well-being of his reputation.

Someone should send the UBS Public Affairs Executive this memo, too. He might lack full judgment in doing his job.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=shosh;659697][COLOR=red]Would you be friends or associate yourself with someone like Ayers? Do you want your president to do that?[/COLOR][/quote] If it's Bill Ayers as he is today, then I'd have no problems with "knowing him" and saying hi to him on the street. It's not like we'd be bosom buddies, but I'm not going to cross to the opposite side of the street out of some fear of being infected by his "terrorist" ways at this point in time. He's less of a threat to society at this point than: (1) anyone who has done time in jail and been released; (2) a good 95% of our politicians; (3) all of Wall Street senior executive leadership.

And I would [I]much[/I] rather my president have had an association with Ayers than to stoop so low as to slander people as "terrorist" based on something this inconsequentially dumb - especially when he has his own skeletons in his closet.

You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually [I]matter[/I] to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...

Show me some [I]real evidence[/I] that Obama conspired to commit or enabled terrorist activities, that he wrote Unabomber terrorist manifestos, that he gave money and support to terrorists, that he supported Bin Laden, that he fired RPGs at US troops in Baghdad, etc. and I will listen to you. Otherwise, STFU. Because if this is all you've got, then I'll call it for the bullshit scare tactic witch hunt it is.

there, I've said my piece. I'm out.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=Miroslav;659706]If it's Bill Ayers as he is today, then I'd have no problems with knowing him and saying hi to him on the street. It's not like we'd be bosom buddies, but I'm not going to cross to the opposite side of the street out of some fear of being infected by his "terrorist" ways. He's less of a threat to society at this point than: (1) anyone who has done time in jail and been released; (2) a good 95% of our politicians; (3) all of Wall Street senior executive leadership.

And I would [I]much[/I] rather my president have had an association with Ayers than to stoop so low as to slander people as "terrorist" based on something this inconsequentially dumb - especially when he has his own skeletons in his closet.

You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually [I]matter[/I] to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...

I've said my piece. I'm out.[/quote]

yet you guys are the same ones ridiculing mccain for suspending his campaign so that he can help out with the bill and praising obama for continuing his campagin? wtf?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=88Mariner;659704]yeah toasty, would you turn down an offer to join a philanthropic organization board of directorship position because of a person you had not been previously associated with, who forty years ago had been involved in an attack on an authoritarian government that was forcing men to give up thier lives to fight for the perpetuation of the authoritarian government itself, if you knew that people would paint you two as life long sexual-political soulmates?

yeah, i guess if shosh were to ask me this, i probably would not join if i knew i had to deal with such fucked up persons trying to revise history and make me look like an ass. welp, i guess this really puts obama's judgment in question because you know, as it turns out, he accepted the position, despite what was clearly contrary to the well-being of his reputation.

Someone should send the UBS Public Affairs Executive this memo, too. He might lack full judgment in doing his job.[/QUOTE]

You raise some good points here. Matter of fact, I already serve on the board/leadership committees of a couple of community organizations, and it would probably be a good use of my time and effort to have a background search run on the other folks in those organizations to ensure that none of the people I'm associating with have done anything unsavory within the last half-century or so.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659713] mccain .... help out with the bill[/QUOTE]

That's rich. :lol:

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659713]yet you guys are the same ones ridiculing mccain for suspending his campaign so that he can help out with the bill and praising obama for continuing his campagin? wtf?[/QUOTE]

Part of me would love to crawl into your brain for a few minutes to see how your tortured logic is able to connect some of these things. My desire to retain my own sanity, however, wins out in the end.

Morbid curiosity requires me to ask, though -- what the hell does McCain suspending his campaign have to do with anything that we're discussing?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=toasty;659718]Part of me would love to crawl into your brain for a few minutes to see how your tortured logic is able to connect some of these things. My desire to retain my own sanity, however, wins out in the end.

Morbid curiosity requires me to ask, though -- what the hell does McCain suspending his campaign have to do with anything that we're discussing?[/quote]

THIS:

[quote=Miroslav;659706]You wanna talk about character... It shows damn poor character on the part of McCain and his Republican friends to make these disingenous claims a priority in our national discourse, rather than things that actually [I]matter[/I] to the American people. We've got an international national economic disaster and Americans are suffering, and these right-wing wackjobs have nothing better to do than dick around with some contrived terrorist witch hunt. Makes me sick...[/quote]

judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?) also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

..

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=Miroslav;659722]How do McCain's largely ineffective drama queen tactics with respect to the financial crisis have [I]anything[/I] to do with this "terrorist" accusation of Obama?[/quote]

i was drawing a parallel. you are accusing mccain for not focusing on the things that matter, yet when he was doing just that you were flaming him. amirite?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659720] judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?) also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.[/QUOTE]

As a matter of fact, since you asked, I wish Obama hadn't dredged up the Keating 5 thing, and if I were running his campaign, I wouldn't have raised it. Alas, I am not. I do understand the strategy, though, and the fact remains that it was raised in response to the Ayers attack, using the old adage that "a good offense is the best defense." Again, I don't agree with it, but you can't just sit and play defense, either. Turnabout is fair play, and if McCain wants to look 40 years back to question Obama's judgment, he can't really complain that Obama is pointing to something much more recent that McCain was actually knee-deep in.

The idea that McCain deserves anything other than a roll of the eyes for the "suspension of his campaign" and his [I]invaluable [/I]assistance in getting the bailout bill across the finish line, though, is positively laughable. Surrogates did not stop attacking, campaign offices did not close, McCain did not stop personally campaigning (he just changed the fora) and nothing changed apart from the bailout bill becoming a photo op for the McCain campaign. Voters saw it for what it was -- a cheap political stunt -- and McCain's downward spiral began...

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=shosh;659723]i was drawing a parallel. you are accusing mccain for not focusing on the things that matter, yet when he was doing just that you were flaming him. amirite?[/quote] Nope, you're wrong.

Please... McCain didn't do jack. Just a week or two before that, he was telling us how "the fundamentals of the economy are sound." All McCain was trying to do was get some good closeup shots for PR purposes, hoping to sell himself off as a big hero in this crisis. And he failed spectacularly. The bill didn't pass quickly and his own party shat on him. Obama was in the meeting with Bush as well, phoned in his input where needed, and discussed his viewpoints on the bailout. Lets be honest: neither of the candidates were in the position to do the heavy lifting on this bill.

The only real difference I see between the two of them is that McCain tried to make a big dramatic production out of his exaggerated role in it for his own politican image, and Obama did not. And McCain took a popularity hit on the bailout, which suggests that the American public is not as stupid as he thought.

[quote=shosh;659720]also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.[/quote] I don't think Obama should be talking about Keating. But at this point it's basically ammo to fire back at McCain's "terrorist" accusations.

And how can you say on one hand say that Obama's character is forever criminally tarnished by his association with Ayers, yet then in the same breath say that McCain's character is pure because he was exonerated? If those character issues are still so relevant for Obama, then you should at least be consistent and admit that they are still relevant for McCain - regardless of whether or not he was exonerated. I don't want to play this game, but if you do then here we go:

[COLOR=red]Do you really want someone who associated with corrupt politicians and took $112K and other favors from a corrupt businessman as your president?[/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000][/COLOR] [COLOR=#ff0000]He [B]associated with them[/B] - that means [B]McCain must be a corruption sympathizer![/B][/COLOR]

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;659720]THIS:

judging mccain for talking about obama's terrorist past instead of focusing on the economy. when he suspended his campaign to focus on the economy, you guys slammed him. obama only said: ill let the congress take care of it, im sure they can (right, how long did it take them and what else did they have to add to make it pass?) also, are you slamming obama for talking about the keating five, of which mccain was exonerated? surely if you are accusing one party of making baseless accusations you would accuse the other as well, right? not.[/QUOTE]

you seriously think McCain or Obama had anything to do with this bill passing besides their 2 votes in the senate?

wow...

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=ddr;659745]you seriously think McCain or Obama had anything to do with this bill passing besides their 2 votes in the senate?

wow...[/quote]

no, but id rather have the would be president involved in it rather than just let congress handle it

Re: the 'danger' of obama

^^^ Since we're slinging mud from ancient history, how about this one? Speaking of terrorists...

[B]McCain linked to group in Iran-Contra affair[/B] [URL]http://www.boston.com/news/politics/2008/articles/2008/10/07/mccain_link_to_private_group_in_iran_contra_case/[/URL]

You know, we can go back and forth and play this little game for a long time...

But somehow, I suspect you'll just continue to ignore these inconvenient little pieces of McCain's past while continuing to blast Obama as an anti-American criminal for his.

Must be a very pretty world with those right-wing blinders on, my friend. ;)

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Did someone say Yoo?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

Shosh,

Just remember... You're a racist & filled with hate, if you [I]don't[/I] vote for Obama...

but...

You'll be covered with the warm sticky ooze of "hope" and "change", if you [I]do[/I] vote for Obama...

C'mon, get on the bus already...

:roll::roll::roll::roll::roll::roll:

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=k3n3;659935]Shosh,

Just remember... You're a racist & filled with hate, if you [I]don't[/I] vote for Obama... [/QUOTE]

he's a racist regardless of who he votes for.

Re: the 'danger' of obama

^Jenks that is possibly the sickest avatar I have ever seen! lmfao Where did you find it? +10 Badass

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=Jenks;659936]he's a racist regardless of who he votes for.[/quote]

lol you know nothing about me...

since you think im racist solely based on jokes ive posted (or the fact that i wouldnt vote for obama) i assume youve never laughed at any comedian

amirite?

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[QUOTE=shosh;660136]lol you know nothing about me...

since you think im racist solely based on jokes ive posted (or the fact that i wouldnt vote for obama) ...[/QUOTE]

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

just sayin'...:roll:

Re: the 'danger' of obama

[quote=toasty;660152]If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

just sayin'...:roll:[/quote]

wtf are you saying?

im racist cause i tell jokes about black people?

you too man?

wow

Re: the 'danger' of obama

shady, shady, shady...

holy shit, this obama guy is r-o-t-t-e-n...

part 1: [YOUTUBE]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1P_P8lBCsE[/YOUTUBE]

part 2: [YOUTUBE]http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QcpdUtxNQ[/YOUTUBE]

you all need get your head out of the sand, this guy sucks...