^^ i know i am almost crossing the line.. it is begining to get harder for me to tell myself that all muslims aren't bad.. i have muslim friends that i haven't seen in awhile because all we do is argue about Bush.. Obviously all muslims aren't bad.. but they are the fastest growing population.. They are similar to cancer.. they double every year.. There families have like 13 kids and the average christian has 2.. we are beginning to get out numbered..But all the warning signs are there as from before when the christians went on crusades.. Everybody has problems with the Islam faith.. whether you want it or not in there religion there will always be extremists.. As there numbers grow they start trying to take over there respective countries.. It's happening here in Canada.. Why do you think we aren't at war with the US and the UK (our closest allies)?? places like Toronto are a perfect place for Al-Quieda to sit and wait to see if Canada cooperates with the US.. and when we do it will be our heads they are cutting off.. and brakada why do you think we aren't at war with them now.. Could it be because they know they will lose right now because we have the nukes and the technology.. We can kill 1 billion muslims at the push of a button.. To win a war now isn't about numbers anymore.. its about technology.. they know that and they are trying to get a hold of WMD's.. I don't want to argue anmore about which religion is better.. Nobody can convince me that there's is better.. I just look at each sides "way of life".. Ours is better..you can't sayno beceause i have one word for you.. plumbing.. we have it they don't.. Our woman are free- there's aren't.. There religion is based by the sword-Ours isn't..

:shock:

runningman, I give up on you...

[quote=gokada]Actually Yao, the media here in the U.S., whether it be tv, newspapers, magazines, talk shows, etc...has really tried to show that Islam is a religion of peace, and I think any level headed person would realize that Islam is unfortunately being "hijacked" by radical extremists. I really don't understand why the rest of the world think that Americans are dumb or oblivious. I take that back, look at our crap reality shows, crap gossip shows, crap lots of other things; but that is [b]not[/b] what the [b]overwhelming[/b] majority of the population here is all about. That overwhelming majority is very tolerant of other cultures and beliefs...unfortunately, the bad seeds stand out more and make it look like the rest of us are just as f#%*d up as they are. We're hard working (I believe we have much less holidays than most countries), compassionate, and forgiving. Don't let Hollywood taint what most other Americans are really about...[/quote]

[b]Gokada[/b], If I gave you the impression that I thought of Americans as passive, critique-less and dumb people, than I should have chosen my words better. Because that has never been my intention, so please excuse me for that. We in Europe are also fed a certein image of the US when it comes to the media in your country: mostly that all media are very biased and never tell the whole truth, to such an extent that many Americans are almost brainwashed and therefore cannot make the well-thought-over choice in, for example, the elections. I've tried not to believe in this image too much, because I know our media is [b]very[/b] biased when it comes to the US. If my remarks have shown different (me getting influenced nonetheless), I'm sorry for that.

Your reality- and talkshows are crap however :mrgreen: .

[quote=Gokada]As far as your comparison of Muslims and Christians and the way they treat their women, you mentioned that beating women is a part of culture. Well whether or not that's the case, can't you agree that beating women, or anyone for that matter, is wrong? You sound like an intelligent person so I think you'll agree. At the same time, the fact that Christians "let" their women work and take care of kids is a part, not of Christianity, but of American culture. It takes 2 to make enough money to support the family here in the U.S.. Whether monogamy is better than polygamy or vice versa, depends on the culture. It's the way one is raised...I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other...just different from one another...that's all...[/quote]

I agree to the fullest with you when it comes to beating women, don't worry about that. As for the part of American culture: I was actually referring to African countries, just below the Sahara, where you can see the transition from Islamic culture to Christian culture within the borders of certain countries like Ivory coast, Sudan, Mali, Nigeria, Chad. Marriage an religion do have an economic dimension over there, unlike the Western world. Aspects that we dissaprove of, may have advantages in certain societies. Read that part again, and you'll understand what I meant...I hope.

[quote=Gokada]And some things [b]do[/b] get fixed by fighting...now I'm not a warmonger...but we "fixed" Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor (it's a personal struggle within me since I'm Japanese American), the Germans were "fixed" too...I agree that war sucks, innocent people always die and that sucks...the fact that we're fighting terrorists or insurgents in Iraq shows that the decision to go into Iraq in the first place may have been a good one, regardless of how it was done...we're fighting them over there instead of over here...the fact is that these people want to kill us, they've revealed their hate towards us by the USS Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the WTC bombing in 1993, and obviously 9/11....they've attacked the world for about 20 years now (homicide bombers in Israel, the Berlin disotheque bombing, the Pan Am bombing in Lockerbie, Scotland, and the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro)...I think we've taken all we can take...now, we have a President that isn't scared to act, that doesn't care what leaders of other nations think of him, and that has the guts to finally take on these assholes...Are we supposed to wait until they hit us again? Would you try to stop someone that wants to kill you and your family or would you wait for him to make the first move?[/quote]

Also a good remark. I am not a pacifist per s?, and sometimes you need to give someone a slap in the face to make him listen or obey.

The reason the is that I hear people saying: it's better to fight this war out there than here, and that they were going to attack you anyway. I still have doubts about that view: Muslim extremists may have been militant, but they didn't come to you until you came to them. The USS Cole was somewhere in the Middle East, right? On their soil. They gave you the warning out there, also by bombing the embassies in Tanzania and Kenya (hope I'm right about the countries??). But you didn't go. That's when they went in, no sooner. And that's why I think the argument of fighting the war on their ground is illegal in this discussion. I hope you understand what my viewpoint is here.

9/11 can never be seen as a good thing, or a deserved thing. No way. But I think is had been provoked by the assertive way of dealing with the Middle East problems, and the presence of US troops over there. They're not trying to kill all Americans...yet. They're trying to chase you away. That's what I think. But then again, that's just me. And who am I?

Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

runningman, i dont know you, but i am already afraid of you....

and i disagree with some of the "extremist" ideas of the religion, but i realize that we cant go on a holy war here.

wow......cancer......wow.......

[quote=cosmo]Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock.[/quote]

No, they just made an outrageously wild guess...

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=thesightless]runningman, i dont know you, but i am already afraid of you....

and i disagree with some of the "extremist" ideas of the religion, but i realize that we cant go on a holy war here.

wow......cancer......wow.......[/quote]

i don't mean that all muslims are cancer.. i just said they spread like cancer.. they are doubling every year.. like cancer.. I don't want a holy war either but it might not be my decision.. If the USA goes into Iran i fear for what will happen.. I am just preparing for the worst.. I don't want every muslim to die.. That sounds crazy like crazy hitler talk.. I just want the muslim clerics to come out and condemn Osama and take some responsibility for there religion and how people are thinking about Jihad.. I want to see these bastards on TV every day asking Osama on CNN , Al-Jazeera, NBC i don't care to turn themselves in.. but i don't and that is why i call them bastards.. til then i can't respect there religion..

[quote=cosmo]Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock.[/quote]

Instead of making stupid claims, why don't you back this up with some facts. Here are some to totally rebut your point of view: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm[/url]

[quote=LobsterClan] Instead of making stupid claims, why don't you back this up with some facts. Here are some to totally rebut your point of view: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3962969.stm[/url][/quote]

Do you actually read the links you supply.

[quote=BBC] Dr Les Roberts, who led the study, said: "Making conservative [b]assumptions [/b]we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more, have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. [/quote]

The key word, in case you missed it is assumption. In the same article it quotes four other organisations who have also looked into this issue.

[quote=BBC] Iraq Body Count: 14-16,000 Brookings Inst: 10-27,000 UK foreign secretary: >10,000 People's Kifah >37,000 [/quote]

Even taking the highest estimated figure here, the Lancet has come up with a total in excess of some 63,000 people more then all other estimates.

The thing about this war lobster is that there is no way for certain to tell how many people have died, but we have to be guided by those organisations that try and count the bodies. In that case i would put it to you, that seeing as we are working on [b]estimates[/b] only, then we would probably have to agree a figure somewhere in between those that have been suggested.

A figure that is certainly far less then 100,000.

The [url=http://www.iraqbodycount.net/press/]Iraq Body Count's[/url] response is 'interesting'... :?

Which makes the 100,000 not such a wild guess after all, but yes, it is still an estimated number.

[quote=davetlv]

Do you actually read the links you supply.

[quote=BBC] Dr Les Roberts, who led the study, said: "Making conservative [b]assumptions [/b]we think that about 100,000 excess deaths, or more, have happened since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. [/quote]

The key word, in case you missed it is assumption. In the same article it quotes four other organisations who have also looked into this issue.

[quote=BBC] Iraq Body Count: 14-16,000 Brookings Inst: 10-27,000 UK foreign secretary: >10,000 People's Kifah >37,000 [/quote]

Even taking the highest estimated figure here, the Lancet has come up with a total in excess of some 63,000 people more then all other estimates.

The thing about this war lobster is that there is no way for certain to tell how many people have died, but we have to be guided by those organisations that try and count the bodies. In that case i would put it to you, that seeing as we are working on [b]estimates[/b] only, then we would probably have to agree a figure somewhere in between those that have been suggested.

A figure that is certainly far less then 100,000.[/quote]

Of course I read the links. Also, of course there is no way to tell for sure how many civilians have been killed. In case you hadn't noticed the opening sentence of the article reads: "Poor planning, air strikes by coalition forces and a "climate of violence" have led to more than 100,000 extra deaths in Iraq, scientists claim."

And I was replying to someone who said "Anyone who believes that 100,000 deaths have been recorded is out of their mind. This number has been rebutted a number of times by outside groups. What a crock."

You'll notice the person who made that quote has been conspicuously absent since making that remark.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Yao, all I want to say is that it's actually nice to have an intelligent exchange with someone instead of name calling and put downs...thank you...

The same to you man, I really enjoy these discussions/conversations. We may get emotional sometimes, but don't we all? And given the subjects it's really not surprising...

Thnx, and I hope we can continue this. :RockOn:

^^ ya thanks guys.. :RockOn: :lol: :Suck:

[quote=runningman finally came out of the closet]^^ ya thanks guys.. :RockOn: :lol: :Suck:[/quote]

[b][color=#ff00ff]You had this one coming bro...[/color][/b]

[quote=Yao][quote=runningman finally came out of the closet]^^ ya thanks guys.. :RockOn: :lol: :Suck:[/quote]

[b][color=#ff00ff]You had this one coming bro...[/color][/b][/quote]

I just wanted to be a pen pal with you two.. :oops:

Aren't we already, except for the 'pal' part....how's about '[b]Penemies[/b]' ? :mrgreen:

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

"Religion and money are the root of all evil, and cause of almost all wars."

Also because of George Bush. Can't stand that bastard.

Sean

-11 for digging up 1-yr-old threads

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

:ROFLMAO:

Don't let Pickles discourage you srbbnd...