true. but on the other hand it is a right people have. :roll:

Dems think its a right they have under oath. :Bingo:

you mean to lie ... ? :lol:

[quote=runningman]why doesn't the UN do something about Africa then?? because the UN is weak and it isn't the USA's war.. its Africas.. Why does it always come to africa.. Iraq and Afghanistan are staging points for the fight against Osama and the Saudis.. you can't leave a guy like saddam in charge and hope he doesn't give osama ammuniution against the US.. the US is going to clear out the arab world whether we like it or not.. so i suggest we start picking sides because very soon it is goingto get very bad and none of you can deny that.. and i am with the US so whatever they feel they need to do to keep the US safe from random starbucks blowing up or people in NY getting thier heads cut off i am with them.. I still haven't heard anybody's plan to get rid of the terrorists.. and don't say some shit like get out of the arab nations.. the land of islam.. please.. history says islam does this.. and i will waste my time because i am christian.. we will see how you feel within the next 62 days sacredawe.. 9 out of 10 times when a osama video comes out there is an attack with in 60 days..hope its not in the sunny state of florida.. don't justify your reasoning because you are an athiest.. religion is here to prevent chaos on earth.. that's all.. you can't hide behind saying christians and muslims are stupid.. there are more of use then you.. and you live in our controlled environment (christian) USA.. that is why your country might fall inot civil war is because of people like you.. I feel i am more patriotic then you towards the US and i am canadian..[/quote]

i don't know you but i pitty you and your racist ignorant comments. when i read opinions like these it makes me once again realize that people like you are among us, breathing the same air...

exactly they have that right so people who do this shouldn't complain about how they get it.. killing people is bad.. i agree.. but to say what those soldiers are doing is wrong in iraq is completely false.. the real battle will be against the saudis in the future.. and please don't say oil.. well it will partially be about oil because we need it.. as for u yao.. you want Bush to be more like Clinton don't you.. let them bomb the USS Cole and bomb an embassy killing hundreds of americans and turn the other cheek.. or maybe get a blow job by some fat slob (Monica Lewinski) and then go bomb the shit out of Serbia to distract the nation on your blow job.. do u all see what harm clinton did to the american people.. and they love him. i don't understand.. he turned over a huge debt to Bush and then two planes fly into the world trade center and then fahrenheit 911 comes out blaming bush.. :roll: :roll: .. they wanted to kill us a long time ago.. it has nothing at all to do with Bush.. he is just trying to fix it.. as far as religion goes i don't care if your christian muslim black or blue. as long as you don't fuck up my shit i won't want to fuck up yours.. i don't look down on other religions.. but what i am saying about athiests is don't live in a country that is ruled by religion then.. Come to canada because it is starting to get stupid up here trying to make everybody happy.. there trying to get rid of halloween up here because muslims think it is scary and they don't understand what we are celebrating.. so you come up here and deal with this shit then.. you have this dream of utopia.. it doesn't exist on earth..and never will.. :cry:..i am not trying to make people in here mad or trying to get a reaction out of you guys but i feel very strongly on this.. i am trying to make you guys understand the real world we live in..i'm not racist i hate everyone the same.. :lol:

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

you've just proven to the entire board what kind of freakshow you are & subsequently saved us from further frustration.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Eh Civic, a little correction from my side needed then: I'm would rather fit into the 'agnostic' category than athe?st. Thought it was the same, my mistake. I don't believe there is nothing at all, but until I have proof, I'll just go with what I can see, hear, touch, lick and f*ck. :WinkNSmi:

And it is this mingling of the US in middle-east politics and conflicts that gets all those guys worked up. There has always been the group of fundamentalist muslims that wants to see all heidens destroyed, but I don't think they were a factor of significance in the past. A common enemy makes for good recruiting: it is one of the oldest tricks in the political book.

I hear Runnin' saying 'they wanted to kill you long ago'...not until you showed your face in Afghanistan and Isreal that was my friend. Runnin' man: try and make an effort to find out what Clinton did do right in politics, apart from getting himself a blowjob. Monica may a bit overweight, but she's still hotter than Hillary. I don't know much about domestic politics in the US under Billy, but I do know he has done some good shit in the middle-east and Africa. I'll try to back this up later, so wait a minute before you go and try to flame me again on this :)

The Force be with you guys.

Domestically Clinton was a pretty decent President..........because he didn't do jack shit! Which is exactly what I expect the President to do. I just want him to get the hell out of my way so I can pursue my understanding of life, work, philanthropy, and family. Domestically, Clinton wasn't bad.

As far as foreign policy is concerned he was pretty much a joker. No offense to him, but in retrospect he was more hilarious than Bush in some ways. Like bombing the Chinese embassy in Bosnia :lol: Of all the embassies we we could have accidentally hit, we nail the one that comes with the world's largest standing army. Sorry China Mapquest forgot to do a monthly update. Another great one was when he paid North Korea to sign a non-nuclear proliferation pact. Then he paraded around Washington with it......and about a year later we found out they never even pretended to stop enriching uranium. :lol: classic. Or bombing Iraq for about 1 whole week for not complying with the U.N. inspectors :lol: Yeah, that was a shimmering beacon of American productivity. bahahahahaahahahaaha. I really am laughing right now. God bless Bill Clinton for being smart enough not to run again, being president of this country probably sucks balls.

^^^ getting head is hard work. you do want to mess up your pants right before a televised broadcast. :Naughty:

[quote=mylexicon] :lol: You can't be serious. Inspectors are spies legally forced upon Saddam by the U.N. Every inspector who has been looking around Iraq for the past decade is a spy whether or not they were formally trained is irrelevant. :lol:

You people crack me up. You ask me to show you knowledge when all you have to do to understand this situation is exercise a mixture of historical fact and common sense. Stop being controlled by our sensationalistic media.[/quote]

It's one thing to be an inspector for the UN, making sure certain weapons are not being produced-- it's entirely another subject when those inspectors are part of the CIA and are keeping track of Saddam's movements, as well as numerous other things they had no business doing.

[url]http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0801-01.htm[/url]

^^^ HUMAN 'DISASTER' LOOMS IN ENCIRCLED FALLUJA

that's the title page for that site.

... news today ... 1+1 = 2.

[quote=asdf_admin]^^^ HUMAN 'DISASTER' LOOMS IN ENCIRCLED FALLUJA

that's the title page for that site.
[/quote]

What are you arguing exactly? That there is no human disaster looming? Check the headlines of any major newspaper right now. Also please notice the article I quoted links to two separate NY times articles about that particular subject.

it's a war, what are you getting at? Another endless debate.

exactly. thank you balanc3.

ya some of u guys (americans) don't grasp that your country is at war right now.. just because it isn't on your turf (which is a well executed war) doesn't mean it isn't going on as we speak..

runningman, it is good to know there is at one Canadian who can think logically,

asdf admin, I love your short to the point little tidbits of truth,

mylexicon and evangelion, you two make great points.

Thanks you all for taking the time to make the points you make.

Most of the world is not looking at this problem in the muslim countries for what it truly is. Ever since the religion started roughly 600 AD, they have forced people into following their way by the sword. North Africa was Christian before it was Islamic. Christian churches have been made into mosque all over the region including Turkey and other countries. My point, the Islamic clerics are doing as they have been mandated by the hadith (sp) and Qu'ran. That and the fact that if your muslim and speak against the leaders or religion, then someone will probably kill you. It is not a religion of peace, though they say it is.

With that being said, we have to take a stand and stop them. They were stopped before they took over Europe. Remember they made well into Southern Europe before they were turned back. Albania is a perfect example of a Christian country turned Muslim 500 years ago, and still technically muslim today.

People who think to sit back and do little are narrow minded. This will not end anytime soon. They were planning a jihad and were waiting for the right opportunity to die for Islam, and in turn be rewarded in heaven for dieing in a holy war. That is in simple terms why so many have come to Iraq to fight the 'Christian', and the Iraqi nationals who are the true heroes and freedom fighters for their country. Remember, new recruits line up every day to fight for change in Iraq. Knowing they will probally catch a fragment for a cowardly car bomber willing to kill the women and children to keep the suppression of their land.

Why are 100,000 dead, because backwards minded, strongly Islamic fundamentalist followers of their religion (which is hard for us to understand how this works together) are willing to 'smight the neck' (as the Qu'ran teaches) of anyone who stands in the way of keeping the religion and the land as it has been for the past 1500 or more years.

Someone said in this thread how 'sad' all this is, and the opinions expressed. True it is sad. But more sad it the lack of true understanding from people around the world at how Islam's goal is to dominate the world and control it in a governmental Islamic state. That has always been the goal, and it has never gone away. Only the plan changes.

Look at Europe today. Islam is the fastest growing religion, and in time they will dominate the whole region by sheer numbers. How? By family growth and immigration. Europeans are not having families as large as the Muslims, who on average have 5 kids per family. The growth of Islam is inevitable. A smart way to take over a land in my opinion.

Its a good debate. Keep yourself educated, don't believe the things you read in the NY Times quite so quickly and use your mind / logic , over the emotional / heartfelt fuzziness the way you wish the world would be. These news links may not always have the truth in them, check the sources. Do a better job than our American Liberalized Media did in the Dan Rather CBS news scandal of the Elections we just experienced here.

^^ thanks for clearing things up on that topic.. i don't think a lot of other people know this about Islam.. Either that or they thought i was crazy comparing the war in Iraq to religion.. Bush plans ii think to go into every muslim lead country(whether the leader lets him or not) and get rid of these "extremists".. basically to quel a muslim uprising like there usually is every couple hundred years..

you guys are fucking racists. you are at a point of no return that talking sense to you is hopeless - it's a waste of time & energy. having a political take and discussing it within limits is one thing, being flatout a disgrace to humanity is another thing. i feel sorry for the people you might influence during your vile lives... :MadNow:

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Seeing as this seems to be such a fun filled topic I thought I would put may two shekels worth in.

ftc - you're right some of the comments being made here could be described as racist. Although I don't entirely subscribe to all those views i can see where people are coming from.

Now, I?m no politician or social theorist, I am left leaning but a realist, my views are my own . . .

As humanity we are at a crossroads - that is to say the three monotheistic religions are at a crossroads. All three are messianic. Two of those religions (Christianity and Islam) firmly believe in converting people of other faiths to, what they see as, the one true faith. I don't have a problem with that. As human being I believe we have the freedom to make decisions as to how we affect our own lives.

What we are seeing today with Islam is similar to what happened at the beginning of the last millennium with Christianity. Simply put crusades. For a crusade to succeed you need two elements, charismatic leadership and masses of uneducated people.

The difference between today?s crusade and that of a thousand years ago is that NO human being on this planet, with all we have achieved in the past 100 years, should be uneducated. Unfortunately the despots who have ruled in most of the Middle East have cared more about lining their own pockets then feeding and educating the vast majority of the Islamic/Arab world.

The reason why it?s easy for semi charismatic leaders today to defame their religion and bastardise their religious texts is because of a handful of megalomaniacs who decided to keep their subjects under such draconian rule that a hot bed of fundamentalism was allowed to flourish. And then, when their subjects started to cry out in pain and anger at their treatment, their leaders needed someone, or something, to focus their anger at.

This current rise in fundamentalism is relatively new, sure there have been pockets of it going back a 100 years or so, but the vast majority of it has raised its ugly head over the past twenty years only.

So on the one hand we have the rise of Islamic fundamentalists, and on the other we have the reaction to it.

When someone is so indoctrinated as to believe that 70 virgins await them after they crash their planes in to buildings or strap bombs onto their bodies and detonate them in nightclubs and buses, its easy to see why WE feel hatred towards them. It?s easy to understand why WE feel we?re now at the stage of them or us.

From personal experience I can tell you, everytime a bomber blows him/herself up on a bus, in a nightclub, in a shopping mall or at a bus stop, I feel angry. I feel hatred. I want retaliation. And for moments i feel like the world would be a better place without them! And then i remember the reality. The reality is that the vast majority of Arab Muslims are victims. Victims of their own currupt leadership that does not give a damn about them. And then another bomber explodes his belt and the cycle continues. . . .

Is there a way out of this situation; I guess if I had the answer to that then I would deserve the Noble peace. Just some personal thoughts!

robprunzit...

I thought you had a few more brain cells than that. Your post isn't even worth replying to ? uneducated, bigoted and, quite frankly, it's pretty 'sad' that you feel you should share these 'views' with us.

Try reading a few history books... or even Dave's post which makes a lot of sense.

:evil:

And a point to consider ? much of the world speaks either English or Spanish while many countries are devoutly Catholic... Is it worth banging on about how 'evil' Christianity is as well?

Good posts, FTC, Davetlv and Mixu. Glad to see there's still some sensible people around this board.

As for runningman and Robprunzit: it am not fast in calling people racists, but you sure as hell are going that direction.

As Dave said: the hatred and anger can be understandable, but should never ever prevail over rationale. Because that way you'll never see the other side of a story and become a fundamentalist of your own thoughts.

leave race out of it.. i am white.. i hate some white people.. i don't like any race to be honest.. because humans are humans.. and if it goes your way we will all be dead soon.. if the USA stops backing the Isrealies then let's see what dave has to say then.. it is like we have given the jews a free do what u want card.. soon that will stop i hope.. that is what is getting the USA into so much trouble.. fight that war on your own.. if the two of you (palestinieans and jews) killed each other the world would be a much safer place..it always comes back to the same people in every war.. Jews.. you people really are cursed.. so get a long or it will always be like this. i'm not the problem.. i am the guy trying to fix the problem.. it has been this way before i wass even born.. so all you out there saying i am the problem that is a bunch shit and you know it.. I wish for peace but i am a realist.. it is never going to happen as long as Israel is next to palestine..

[quote=runningman]if the two of you (palestinieans and jews) killed each other the world would be a much safer place..it always comes back to the same people in every war.. Jews.. you people really are cursed.. [/quote]

More wise words :roll:

F*cking idiot...

[quote=runningman]leave race out of it.. i am white.. i hate some white people.. i don't like any race to be honest.. because humans are humans.. and if it goes your way we will all be dead soon.. if the USA stops backing the Isrealies then let's see what dave has to say then.. it is like we have given the jews a free do what u want card.. soon that will stop i hope.. that is what is getting the USA into so much trouble.. fight that war on your own.. if the two of you (palestinieans and jews) killed each other the world would be a much safer place..it always comes back to the same people in every war.. Jews.. you people really are cursed.. so get a long or it will always be like this. i'm not the problem.. i am the guy trying to fix the problem.. it has been this way before i wass even born.. so all you out there saying i am the problem that is a bunch shit and you know it.. I wish for peace but i am a realist.. it is never going to happen as long as Israel is next to palestine..[/quote]

So much to answer to. . . its funny runningman, i actually understand some the things you said, i might not necessarily agree with you, but i do understand. Now however . . . .

First thing first, don't fool yourself matey the alliance between the USA and Israel is symbiotic - we both need each other. Israel clearly needs a powerful friend in this world full of pussy nations whilst the USA need a foothold in the middle east. But it wasn't always like that. Prior to the 6 day war (1967) Israel biggest ally, in terms of military know how etc, was actually France (yeah i know, go figure!). its only when France cancelled military contracts in June 1967 did the USA seize the opportunity to develop the relationship. I'm pleased they did; but i reckon it probably had a lot more to do with the fight against communism then it did about support Israel.

Secondly, as for your comment about a 'do as you want card', if such a thing were really to exist, under Israels present leadership, do you not think we would have been slighty more aggresive; and believe me our military have been holding themselves back!

Thirdly, the war on terror did not start after 9/11, Israel has been fighting it, and warning about it, for nearly 40 years. I refer you back to my previous post on how islamic fundamentalism developed.

Fourthly, your comments about it comes back to the same people in every war . . . you're right; WW1, WW2, Korea, Vietnam - these are all wars started or caused by Jews. :CrackUp: You are a very funny man!

Finally, i'm not saying you are the problem. You certainly can not be held responsible for the rise in fundamentalism; I also don't believe that you personally, or the USA generally, is responsible in way for the continuation of this rise. Its just how things are; every thousand years or so this planet goes a little bit mad; the romans did it, the christians did it and the muslims are doing it.

Its just how it is bro!

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

PostPosted: Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:09 pm Post subject: you guys are fucking racists. you are at a point of no return that talking sense to you is hopeless - it's a waste of time & energy. having a political take and discussing it within limits is one thing, being flatout a disgrace to humanity is another thing. i feel sorry for the people you might influence during your vile lives... Mad Now

PostPosted: Mon Nov 15, 2004 5:10 am Post subject: robprunzit...

I thought you had a few more brain cells than that. Your post isn't even worth replying to ? uneducated, bigoted and, quite frankly, it's pretty 'sad' that you feel you should share these 'views' with us.

mixu, have you ever heard of the 'hadith', (forgive my spelling), have you ever read the Qu'ran? Give them a spin. You might change you opinion.

These arent just 'views', they are observations. FTC, what is this about limits. Since where do I need to follow a protocal of political correctness on a forum discussing political topics. And yes the issue of Islam internationally is political, though it is first and foremost religious. So it is good I got your blood boiling, but why is it boiling is the question?

I'm not a bigot and I'm not racist. Very, very far from it. But I do have opinions, and I think people should speak the truth. When it comes to bashing some sectors of people, it is acceptable, but others it is not. Well, I'm explaining facts first, and opinions second. If you don't believe it, I could point out some good books written by ex-muslim middle eastern people, one from Iran, and one from Asia ... India, a mostly Hindu country. Both explaining things about Islam that most will not discuss, but it is there in the Qu'ran, and the volumes of 'hadith' journals for all to read, though the hadith may only be found in Arabic.

I've been to Muslim countries. I'm not bigoted, I just share my opinion strongly. Plenty have been strong in their lack of willingness to follow the leader of America, and in voicing their feelings about him. Can I not voice my observations about something I know something about, which happens to be a topic very few will discuss openly.

It is one thing to hate a religion for what it stands for and what it does to the people. It is another thing to hate the people. I dont hate them, actually I have many muslim friends, and I have eaten at their tables, in their homes, in their homeland. They have given me there bed to sleep on while they slept on the floor.

Some of these people I can say I care about very much. And maybe that is why I dispise the religion so very much. Like many people, some muslims have great hearts, and are very intellectual people, and some have simply been borne into a world where hatred and a backward way of life exist. And it warped them.

Most of the world will never dig deep enough to understand why they do what they do, or feel like they feel.

Two incidences I know this to be true, but did not experience them first hand. A man pooring acid on a womans face because she changed her religion and would not have sex with him, or another woman placed in a hole and dirt poored around her so only her shoulders and head are above the ground, then stoned to death because she had sex before marriage. And nothing happens to the man.

Excuse me, you need to do more than read you history books.

Mixu: you commented... And a point to consider ? much of the world speaks either English or Spanish while many countries are devoutly Catholic... Is it worth banging on about how 'evil' Christianity is as well?

Oh, however you read something into what I said about Christianity, was completely misinterpreted. Christianity is certainly the polar opposite of 'evil'.

And yes, Dave made alot of sense. That was a well thought out post, except one thing. In my opinion it goes back more than the 100 or 20 years. It goes back more than 2000 years.

Mixu, read one of the best history books, the Bible.

Rob,

We can go back and forth with this... but there's no point ? and maybe some opinions aren't being expressed particularly well. Your last post is far better than the previous one:

[quote=robprunzit] Islam's goal is to dominate the world and control it in a governmental Islamic state. That has always been the goal, and it has never gone away. Only the plan changes. [/quote] Change Islam for Jews here and you might as well be talking about [i]The Protocols of the Elders of Zion[/i]...

My point about Christianity and history was that the Crusades were basically about 'reclaiming' the Holy Lands ? and killing Arabs and Jews. Christianity has been imposed on much of the world, particularly South America, through force and often violent colonial powers...

I'm defending neither Islam or Christianity in this respect, just pointing out the fact that over the past 2,000 years people have used the name of both religions for the wrong reasons. And in that respect it's hard to say one is worse than the other. :NotMe:

I do agree with Mixu, but your last post has given me a bit insight in your thinking Robprunzit. I take back what I said about being a racist. I obviously jumped the gun at that and apologize for it.

We all know about the maltreatment of women in Muslim countries, and the corrupted version that is passed on to uneducated Muslims by their clergy in some places. But I don't hate the religion, I don't hate the people. I hate the people that corrupt it and transform a belief that is intrinsically not bad into an intellectual monstrosity.

The same has happened with Christianity and Jews. They've gone past this stage for various reasons, but Islam just won't move an inch into the future thanks to uneducation and extremism combined, among other reasons.

I am sick of arguing about muslims.. I have heard all this crap about me being racist and robprunzit also civic zen.. I still have not heard of anyones plan to stop the muslims from there goal of becoming a global islamic state.. they spread like wild fire.. Why is it then that everyone in the world has a problem with muslims.. THe seiks hate them the christians hate them the jews hate them, even the chinese hate them.. So why is it that the christians are painted red?? We aren't fighting with the rest of the world.. they are.. and you playboy people come on here and say stupid shit.. If you know muslims treat there woman bad then if you defend them then i can call you a sexist.. Right u call me a racist because of my views on this so you must be that then right??

Yao said but Islam just won't move an inch into the future thanks to uneducation and extremism combined, among other reasons.

So how do we fix it?? I would rather have the fight overseas in the middle east then sitting like a guppy waiting for the next punch.. If u don't have a plan to back your arguement of saying "The USA is bad for fighting the war on terror" then you have absolutely nothing usefull to say.. Bush has a plan and if he decides to go into Iran damn it Canada better as well or i am leaving.. Bush has a meeting with our Prime Minister Nov. 30.. I bet the whole conversation will be about foreign policy..

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Can someone tell me when the world's Muslim population got together and decided they wanted to take over the globe? :NotMe:

they don't need to get together.. they want everyone to be muslim.. if not they will try to take over once there population gets bigger then the home nation.. If u don't like it they go to war.. Jihad.. war against there religion so they can kill you..

runningman, you're a real comedian ? that's hilarious!

:Bounce:

[quote=runningman]they don't need to get together.. they want everyone to be muslim.. if not they will try to take over once there population gets bigger then the home nation.. If u don't like it they go to war.. Jihad.. war against there religion so they can kill you..[/quote]

sounds to me a lot like the Spanish inqusition, the crusades, the witch burnings, etc. etc.

i believe those were all in the name of Christianity

its not just Islam that is stupid, its both

monotheistic religions are arrogant and induce a latent xenophobia over time...history has shown that for both

so dont avoid speaking more clearly of what the real problem is

[quote=sacredawe78] monotheistic religions are arrogant and induce a latent xenophobia over time...history has shown that for both[/quote]

Just for this once...I agree with you. Only this time.

And the arrogance is not neccesarily the attitude of the people, but more the way it is put in the world by 'the book', be it a Bible, Qu'ran or Thora. The books and texts mostly deny the possibility of any other faith, which would automatically lead to xenophobia.

People however, have the freedom to do different, to interpret different. Wish they'd do that more often.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote]The books and texts mostly deny the possibility of any other faith, which would automatically lead to xenophobia.

People however, have the freedom to do different, to interpret different. Wish they'd do that more often.[/quote]

Nuff said!

[quote=evangelion][quote=Marimba]come on Garrick! youy believe that shit? that?s what they tell you.....that?s what they want you to think the american soldiers kills. and your fucking bombs too[/quote]

I believe it. Oh wait...I forgot...the only reason we are in Iraq is to see how many women and children we can kill. Or is that what [b]they[/b] told [b]you[/b]??[/quote]

thank you evangelion...

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=mixu]Can someone tell me when the world's Muslim population got together and decided they wanted to take over the globe? :NotMe:[/quote]

I can't tell you when or if they decided this, but I can tell you that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world while the spread of Christianity is slowing...

[quote=runningman]If you know muslims treat there woman bad then if you defend them then i can call you a sexist.. Right u call me a racist because of my views on this so you must be that then right??[/quote]

I don?t say I approve of Muslims treating their women bad: but there?s more sides to that. Seems you guys in the US and Canada get fed a really small portion of what Islam really is. I know for a fact that in Mali and Niger women would rather marry to a Muslim than a Christian. Know why? Muslims have an obligation to take care of their women, and they will. Bigamy is allowed there, and the women appreciate that over Christianity with it?s monogamy. Because that way the hard work is divided among several women, thet will be fed and taken care of according to Islamic rules. The Christians however let their one woman work on the land and take care of the children, too. The men work, too, but this way life is much harder for a woman, especially with several children to take care of.

Beating a woman occurs in Islam as well as Christian belief: it has more to do with culture than religion. Unfortunately those cultures have been mostly situated in Islamic areas, but it occurs among Christians as well. And the Qu?ran doesn?t say that a man is allowed to beat his woman, although some clerics (even in Europe) have argumented otherwise.

As for being a sexist: my lady is holy and not to be touched without love. Ok, that?s overdone, but you get the point eh?

[quote=runningman]So how do we fix it?? I would rather have the fight overseas in the middle east then sitting like a guppy waiting for the next punch.. If u don't have a plan to back your arguement of saying "The USA is bad for fighting the war on terror" then you have absolutely nothing usefull to say?[/quote]

Well?read my post again, I think I was clear on that: EDUCATION. Do I need to spell it out? Question then is?how do we get to educate masses of people in hostile areas? I don?t know, but it?s not impossible. Use the people that are willing to do that, and are not bluntly against any Western suggestion. Universities and the intellectual elite are historically a good starting point for a revolution of any kind.

I didn?t say the US was bad for fighting the war on terrorism, did I? READ BABY, READ. Do I sound agitated? Well..I am. I?m not going to discuss every fucking detail from now on: I think it?s the [b]way[/b] it is fought that is wrong. Anyone that has been around here longer than you and has read my posts will inform that that is what I?ve said, regardless of their stance on the war itself.

You don?t fix things by fighting, you only create temporary control over an area. It?s about a structural change, economically, politically and culturally that has to occur if these problems are to dissapear. The latter one will be hardest to achieve IMO.

Yep exactly.. ^^

" It?s about a structural change, economically, politically and culturally that has to occur if these problems are to dissapear"

I agree with you 100%... but in order to prevent future events (ex.911) you have to get rid of these dictatorship (muslim religion led) countries because at any point they can turn and be evil.. History had taught us this.. These people hate us and we need to temporarily take over these countries that threaten us now and give the country back to the people and prove to them that our way is better.. that is how you get your education.. they don't want to read about it, they want to see it.. They hate our way of life.. or are they just jealous?? Iraq was just a start.. do i agree with the war in Iraq?? yes and no.. yes because saddam was evil and posed a serious threat to my way of life.. no because i felt there are other people that are the problem and should be held accountable like the muslim clerics.. those guys are evil people who just stand there and watch things like the taliban and leaders like saddam who gased his own.. there should have been something done buy there own people to help iraqies... So i don't trust there religion right now because of things happening in the world and what history has taught us about what to expect in the future.. If Bush was going to go into Iraq and Iran from the start then it would just be smart to go into Iraq to build a "homebase" for soldiers and planes then Iran.. Iran will be a tougher war and many more american soldiers will die in that war..

[quote=Yao] I don?t say I approve of Muslims treating their women bad: but there?s more sides to that. Seems you guys in the US and Canada get fed a really small portion of what Islam really is. [/quote]

Actually Yao, the media here in the U.S., whether it be tv, newspapers, magazines, talk shows, etc...has really tried to show that Islam is a religion of peace, and I think any level headed person would realize that Islam is unfortunately being "hijacked" by radical extremists. I really don't understand why the rest of the world think that Americans are dumb or oblivious. I take that back, look at our crap reality shows, crap gossip shows, crap lots of other things; but that is [b]not[/b] what the [b]overwhelming[/b] majority of the population here is all about. That overwhelming majority is very tolerant of other cultures and beliefs...unfortunately, the bad seeds stand out more and make it look like the rest of us are just as f#%*d up as they are. We're hard working (I believe we have much less holidays than most countries), compassionate, and forgiving. Don't let Hollywood taint what most other Americans are really about...

As far as your comparison of Muslims and Christians and the way they treat their women, you mentioned that beating women is a part of culture. Well whether or not that's the case, can't you agree that beating women, or anyone for that matter, is wrong? You sound like an intelligent person so I think you'll agree. At the same time, the fact that Christians "let" their women work and take care of kids is a part, not of Christianity, but of American culture. It takes 2 to make enough money to support the family here in the U.S.. Whether monogamy is better than polygamy or vice versa, depends on the culture. It's the way one is raised...I don't think one way is necessarily better than the other...just different from one another...that's all...

And some things d[b]o[/b] get fixed by fighting...now I'm not a warmonger...but we "fixed" Japan after the attack on Pearl Harbor (it's a personal struggle within me since I'm Japanese American), the Germans were "fixed" too...I agree that war sucks, innocent people always die and that sucks...the fact that we're fighting terrorists or insurgents in Iraq shows that the decision to go into Iraq in the first place may have been a good one, regardless of how it was done...we're fighting them over there instead of over here...the fact is that these people want to kill us, they've revealed their hate towards us by the USS Cole bombing, the embassy bombings, the WTC bombing in 1993, and obviously 9/11....they've attacked the world for about 20 years now (homicide bombers in Israel, the Berlin disotheque bombing, the Pan Am bombing in Lockerbie, Scotland, and the hijacking of the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro)...I think we've taken all we can take...now, we have a President that isn't scared to act, that doesn't care what leaders of other nations think of him, and that has the guts to finally take on these assholes...Are we supposed to wait until they hit us again? Would you try to stop someone that wants to kill you and your family or would you wait for him to make the first move?

^^^^ I agree with you that some things can be fixed by fighting. I'm not going to argue whether the war in Iraq was right or wrong (personally I think it was wrong), but the entire operation was badly planned (I don't think that 100,000 civilians died in Germany or Japan during the "fixing" :wink: )

• Too little diplomatic support was gathered (IMHO the US would have gotten a lot more diplomatic support if they hadn't rushed into with such a hurry),
• too few forces were allocated (one of the most first things should be to secure (at least the most "critical") Iraq borders and prevent all the terrorists from neighbouring countries coming to Iraq)
• reconstruction is progressing too slowly,
• the US and the new Iraq army are a bit late "dealing" with insurgents, and are still not able to provide normal safety and security conditions.

If I am correct, on average around 50,000 people died under Saddam each year,..., which is still half less, than after the American invasion.

However, I certainly DO hope, that things will turn out for the better and that Iraqis will be able to lead a normal life, ASAP. 8)

And runningman, you are crossing the "racism line" at times by predicting a total crusaders war against Islam, and insulting other people. IMO if the entire billion or billions of muslims was/were against the Western "christian" countries, the world would really be a fucked up place.

So here's a solution for you: "JUST FUCK MORE AND HAVE MORE CHILDREN THAN THE MUSLIMS DO" :mrgreen: :WinkNSmi: :RockOn: