Not much good being 'free' if you're dead is it? :(

[quote] Overall, the risk of death [in Iraq] was found to be two and a half times greater after the invasion than before. [/quote]

[url]www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,7374-1335002,00.html[/url]

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

And the worst part is that its mostly women and children who are being killed in the violence. I suppose the next news in the making is "Women and children in Iraq found carrying missing weapons of mass destruction"

I believe this to be an accurate number, was verified some time ago by te red cross. How about Iraqi National Guard deaths, I believe they were whiped out over night. Before the invasion, Newsweek reported there were 250,000 Iraqi Guardsmen total. Again, a rough number.

[quote]It suggests that most civilian deaths have been due to military activity, with those caused by violence rising sharply in recent months.[/quote]

Very sad for the Iraqi people... but still not close to the numbers found in the mass graves. The military claims that the use of smart bombs would reduce the amount of casualties, but that obviously doesn't affect those caught in the crossfire. War sux... yes it does. But were are now finding out that on Thursday evening, Kerry told Dan Rather is he were President he couldn't guaruntee that we still wouldn't be at war with Iraq.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

At the end this is what war produce

keep in mind lots of those are from the terrorists killing their own people to get to us. we are trained to protect as best we can... they on the other hand open fire.

come on Garrick! youy believe that shit? that?s what they tell you.....that?s what they want you to think the american soldiers kills. and your fucking bombs too

True Marimba, but not as random as the rebelling forces...

War brings nothing but death and destruction. Where is the outrage?

[quote=Marimba]come on Garrick! youy believe that shit? that?s what they tell you.....that?s what they want you to think the american soldiers kills. and your fucking bombs too[/quote]

I believe it. Oh wait...I forgot...the only reason we are in Iraq is to see how many women and children we can kill. Or is that what [b]they[/b] told [b]you[/b]??

sad. :cry:

i cant believe some of the posts here...trying to justify murder

its disgusting....i think anyone who sidesteps the reality of this is extremely fucked up

i just cannot believe some of these posts...

some of you truly disgust me

they are hiding behind there women and children.. its sad but you can't let them just go around bombing war ships(USS Cole) and blowing up embassies around the world or flying planes into skyscrapers..why fuck with the biggest super power in the world.. they had it coming just like Iran has it coming and North Korea and Egypt and Syria and Lebanon.. watch over the course of the next 4 years they will have hit a couple more of them.. what some americans can can't wrap there pea little brain around is that every minute they get there foamy late from starbucks or Big Mac someone out there is trying to kill them.. they complain now but will they complain when the Mc Donald's blows up with there relatives in it.. i think not.. just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that they aren't trying.. I wish for peace as well but you have to understand is if they had a nuclear weapon they would use it in a heart beat.. we have them and they tempt us to use them but for some reason we don't.. When they would be completely justified if they did..just to show DON"T FUCK WITH US!!! If they fuck with Russia watch what happens.. Russia doesn't care and they know that.. that's why they don't mess with Russia.. Russia in the next little while will drive right over Chechnya.. they were going to do it a while ago but the USA stopped themm.. USA won't stop them now.. Bye Chechnya... :twisted: :RockOn:

[quote=sacredawe78]i cant believe some of the posts here...trying to justify murder

its disgusting....i think anyone who sidesteps the reality of this is extremely fucked up

i just cannot believe some of these posts...

some of you truly disgust me[/quote]

Ok greenpeace.. let me guess your a tree hugging faggot.. get a clue about what is going on in the world around you then come talk on this server.. till then take your long hair and shove it up your ass you stupid fuck!! :twisted: :roll: :roll:

answer this then GP- What is your plan for stopping the muslims from killing you??because they want to..Jihad remember.. so sit in your comfortable heated home and take your walk down your street and live in your gay little bubble..

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

Thanks George Bush :cry: :cry: He?s the man that caused this sad war :x :x

[quote=runningman][quote=sacredawe78]i cant believe some of the posts here...trying to justify murder

its disgusting....i think anyone who sidesteps the reality of this is extremely fucked up

i just cannot believe some of these posts...

some of you truly disgust me[/quote]

Ok greenpeace.. let me guess your a tree hugging faggot.. get a clue about what is going on in the world around you then come talk on this server.. till then take your long hair and shove it up your ass you stupid fuck!! :twisted: :roll: :roll:

answer this then GP- What is your plan for stopping the muslims from killing you??because they want to..Jihad remember.. so sit in your comfortable heated home and take your walk down your street and live in your gay little bubble..[/quote]

i have no response to that...except i think you are obviously a total moron who thinks that you can intimidate people by typing on the computer

wake up...say something rational...everything you just said was pitiful

i feel sorry for you...and i resent having you as a member of this species...it will take a long time to snuff out the truth and change the minds of complete imbiciles such as yourself

man...work to be done...lots of it abviously

a champion of murder...be proud!!

you actually believe Dick Cheney's rhetoric about Iraq harboring terrorists??

go back to your backwards little fucking town and go to the library and start reading some books on history, philosophy, and/or science...and bring something rational and good to the table

later "faggot"...im not gay, but there is nothing wrong about gay people anyway???

and i currently do not have long hair...as if their is something wrong about that too???

apparently there IS some stupid people in canada

[quote=runningman]they are hiding behind there women and children.. its sad but you can't let them just go around bombing war ships(USS Cole) and blowing up embassies around the world or flying planes into skyscrapers..why fuck with the biggest super power in the world.. they had it coming just like Iran has it coming and North Korea and Egypt and Syria and Lebanon.. watch over the course of the next 4 years they will have hit a couple more of them.. what some americans can can't wrap there pea little brain around is that every minute they get there foamy late from starbucks or Big Mac someone out there is trying to kill them.. they complain now but will they complain when the Mc Donald's blows up with there relatives in it.. i think not.. just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean that they aren't trying.. I wish for peace as well but you have to understand is if they had a nuclear weapon they would use it in a heart beat.. we have them and they tempt us to use them but for some reason we don't.. When they would be completely justified if they did..just to show DON"T FUCK WITH US!!! If they fuck with Russia watch what happens.. Russia doesn't care and they know that.. that's why they don't mess with Russia.. Russia in the next little while will drive right over Chechnya.. they were going to do it a while ago but the USA stopped themm.. USA won't stop them now.. Bye Chechnya... :twisted: :RockOn:[/quote]

You hav absolutely no fucking clue what is going on in Russia...the Chechens have been the subject of some of the most heinous human rights violations for years....Putin, former KGB, extreme nationalist, is a fucking murderer....please read these two books

Age of Delerium - David Satter

Black Earth - Andrew Meier

they will help elucidate what is and has been going on over there...i promise you what you see in the media is only the very tip of the iceberg

the Chechens are wrong for being terrorists...but you have to undertand what the hell they have been through to know how to resolve the problem

Putin will stop at nothing to show the world that Russia will maintain authority over all its various tribes/ethnicities...and that is only going to continue strife, much like it will continue in Palestine/Israel

Yeltsin couldnt do it because the military was so underfunded and weak after the coup....but Putin has the mafia on his side...the black market...the control over most of the districts in Russia (parliamentary control)

the Chechens have been the subject of terror long before they started getting into Islamic extremism, (Wahabism)

please learn more before you trust the media...you are so brainwashed

careful what you say...Putin and Bush are very much like

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=Baltasar]Thanks George Bush :cry: :cry: He?s the man that caused this sad war :x :x[/quote]

Yeah..and Saddam kidnapping, torturing and gassing his own people had nothing to do with right??? Just an innocent victim of the big, bad, war crazy USA right??? STFU!!! If we didn't go over there and something major happened all you fucks would be saying "Why didn't the USA stop him" or "Look at the USA living in there big houses and driving their fast cars, while the Iraqis suffer. How could they do nothing" or "How could the US not help when he is killing his own people???"

Damned if you do, damned if you don't. You get used to it after awhile.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=evangelion] Yeah..and Saddam kidnapping, torturing and gassing his own people[/quote]

It's so ridiculous when you right-wingers constantly quote the "he gassed his own people" argument. Back when he did gas his own people, he was our ally, and he had our full support.

...

Uh...Um...there's some spoken war going on here. Whaddever.

How many terrorists were in Iraq before the 'Liberation'? I bet it wasn't 100.000. So I think killing so may many people to get such a small group of people is a bit overreacted, not? 'Collateral Damage' My Ass.

Terrorists hide amongst the people, finding them and getting rid of them is a dirty job that takes a lot of time, I know. But go ask all the dead people if they think it was worth the sacrifice. I think even their skeletal remains will give you the finger for an answer.

Fighting terrorism is a job for Intelligence bureaus and special forces that can operate on a small scale and take out single targets. With them you don't need to throw the apple away to get rid of the rotten spots: you can scoop them out.

[quote=LobsterClan][quote=evangelion] Yeah..and Saddam kidnapping, torturing and gassing his own people[/quote]

It's so ridiculous when you right-wingers constantly quote the "he gassed his own people" argument. Back when he did gas his own people, he was our ally, and he had our full support.[/quote]

Say what you want man...doesn't change the fact.

We supported him in killing 1,000 of Kurds??? And you try to talk about "you right wingers??" You Lefties and your conspiracy theories are what is ridiculous.

[quote=Yao]Fighting terrorism is a job for Intelligence bureaus and special forces that can operate on a small scale and take out single targets.[/quote]

I couldn't agree with this more. All of this "This is unlike any war we've fought before" talk and they're still using tanks and airstrikes. When I first had thoughts on how this war was going to play out I envisioned a totally Spiecal Ops, Splinter Cell kinda war. I agree that the so-called "collateral damage" is completely unacceptable, and I figured this kind of war would have been employed to minimize this very thing. But it hasn't, and I'm not going to let that sway my opinion on the war.

[quote=evangelion]

We supported him in killing 1,000 of Kurds??? And you try to talk about "you right wingers??" You Lefties and your conspiracy theories are what is ridiculous. [/quote]

There is no conspiracy here. Read your history buddy. In fact, we sold Iraq the helicopters used to drop the gas on the Kurds, and while the Senate voted and approved a bill that would have cut off from Iraq U.S. loans, military and non-military assistance, credits, credit guarantees, items subject to export controls, and U.S. imports of Iraqi oil, it was killed by the Reagan administration.

I urge you to visit this site which heavily documents all US dealings with Iraq from 1980 to 1990: [url]http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html[/url]

While you're at it, read this one: [url]http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm[/url]

Maybe you'll learn something.

that is the obvious answer to say that they should use special forces.. it is a really nice thought that i'm sure the american government has tried.. but the reality is that these people are very loyal to their leaders and won't tell.. so how do u get info. out of them.. you can't you have to take over and plant CIA seeds into the arab nation.. through afghanistan and now iraq will be a good home base to invade all the other countries around it..

im with the lobster on this one...

the empirical data supports his argument

[quote=LobsterClan][quote=evangelion]

We supported him in killing 1,000 of Kurds??? And you try to talk about "you right wingers??" You Lefties and your conspiracy theories are what is ridiculous. [/quote]

There is no conspiracy here. Read your history buddy. In fact, we sold Iraq the helicopters used to drop the gas on the Kurds, and while the Senate voted and approved a bill that would have cut off from Iraq U.S. loans, military and non-military assistance, credits, credit guarantees, items subject to export controls, and U.S. imports of Iraqi oil, it was killed by the Reagan administration.

I urge you to visit this site which heavily documents all US dealings with Iraq from 1980 to 1990: [url]http://www.casi.org.uk/info/usdocs/usiraq80s90s.html[/url]

While you're at it, read this one: [url]http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0802-01.htm[/url]

Maybe you'll learn something.[/quote]

Lol. It's our fault becuase we SOLD Iraq military equipment. Lol that's weaker than the connections the 9/11 commission found between Osama and Saddam. :roll: However, I do agree we are partially responsible for Saddam's power and since we caused the problem we are responsible for fixing it. We tried to fix it in GWI and Clinton pretended like he cared when Iraq dodged U.N. inspectors.

BTW anybody wanna get some data on how many people were suffering becuase of U.N. sanctions. Funny thing is, those sanctions never hurt Saddam. At least this rumble in the desert did.

[quote="sacredawe78"][quote="runningman"][quote=sacredawe78]

apparently there IS some stupid people in canada[/quote]

of course there are like everywhere else. its just a kid looking for a reaction you know that. just don't bother replying.

hey i'm no kid.. ^^ .. i just get very angry with people that make stupid coments.. i feel very strongly that they want to kill us.. this happens every couple hundred years.. the muslims grow and then the christians kill them.. nobody can get a long with the muslims.. look at china now.. so look at your real history.. let me ask you smart old people in here why haven't the major muslim clerics come out and told the muslim nation to turn over bin laden and his gang?? :?: How can their religion support the taliban and woman are nothing?? Look at the pope and what he leads.. where everyone is equal.. muslim supported the taliban and saddam who killed his own people?? The pope would be more vocal if bush made all the woman in USA stay home and had no rights.. So be careful what you are against and what u support. What is your plan then gentleman??

[quote=mylexicon] Lol. It's our fault becuase we SOLD Iraq military equipment. Lol that's weaker than the connections the 9/11 commission found between Osama and Saddam. :roll: However, I do agree we are partially responsible for Saddam's power and since we caused the problem we are responsible for fixing it. We tried to fix it in GWI and Clinton pretended like he cared when Iraq dodged U.N. inspectors.

BTW anybody wanna get some data on how many people were suffering becuase of U.N. sanctions. Funny thing is, those sanctions never hurt Saddam. At least this rumble in the desert did.[/quote]

Damn brother, you seemed more knowledgeable than this. I did not ever claim that because we sold equipment we are responsible. I merely pointed out the fact that the gas dropped on the kurds were from helicopters purchased from us. The meat of the post was the fact that while the Senate voted to put sanctions on Iraq following the gassing of the Kurds, the White House esentially vetoed that position, and did nothing, leaving Saddam as he was:: our ally.

As for the inspectors, you again seem to be grossly misinformed. Believe it or not, Saddam had pretty good reason to throw the inspectors out-- they were US spies! When US spies are brought in under the guise of UN inspectors-- I feel Saddam had a good reason to be pissed.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

I remember feeling uncomfortable when bush held his first press conference after reelection. He said with almost in a sickening humourist way that with this re-election he has gained capital (political capital) and that he now intended to use it -- that it was his style. You think the bodycount up until now was bad, wait until the operations on felluja are in full effect! I can't find words to express my feelings for the suffering people of Iraq. A country that was once the milestone of great culture and civilization is now nothing but a target-practice range for war-driven governments.

This comeback, which is so commonly used, that thanks to the US, Saddam is removed and the world is a better place. Well, news flash ignoramuses, nobody apointed the US world police! We have an organization for international situations that has lost all its credibility and influence thanks to the US and its unilateral decissions.

My prayers are with the suffering innocent civilians. There is so much despair overlooking the future. Africa is a ticking bomb, believe me once the mideast is torn up and divided among powers the media will have no option than covering the grewsome story there...

humanity will surface only when we stop putting a price on freedom and liberty!

ps. I suggest to those of you lucky enough to have found your way to an openminded innovative board like [ms] and still can support what is going on, please take advantage of educating yourself among the majority who despise it.

[quote=runningman]hey i'm no kid.. ^^ .. i just get very angry with people that make stupid coments.. i feel very strongly that they want to kill us.. this happens every couple hundred years.. the muslims grow and then the christians kill them.. nobody can get a long with the muslims.. look at china now.. so look at your real history.. let me ask you smart old people in here why haven't the major muslim clerics come out and told the muslim nation to turn over bin laden and his gang?? :?: How can their religion support the taliban and woman are nothing?? Look at the pope and what he leads.. where everyone is equal.. muslim supported the taliban and saddam who killed his own people?? The pope would be more vocal if bush made all the woman in USA stay home and had no rights.. So be careful what you are against and what u support. What is your plan then gentleman??[/quote]

christianity and islam are BOTH stupid religions responsible for millions of deaths...i wouldt waste your time trying to say one is better than the other

[quote=LobsterClan] The meat of the post was the fact that while the Senate voted to put sanctions on Iraq following the gassing of the Kurds, the White House esentially vetoed that position, and did nothing, leaving Saddam as he was:: our ally.[/quote]

That's why i typed this in closing......to address your statements about the lack of sanctions. [quote=mylexicon]BTW anybody wanna get some data on how many people were suffering becuase of U.N. sanctions. Funny thing is, those sanctions never hurt Saddam. At least this rumble in the desert did.[/quote]

Us not putting sanctions on Iraq was not an act of conspiracy, but rather an act of pragmatism and humanity.

[quote=LobsterClan]As for the inspectors, you again seem to be grossly misinformed. Believe it or not, Saddam had pretty good reason to throw the inspectors out-- they were US spies! When US spies are brought in under the guise of UN inspectors-- I feel Saddam had a good reason to be pissed.[/quote]

:lol: You can't be serious. Inspectors are spies legally forced upon Saddam by the U.N. Every inspector who has been looking around Iraq for the past decade is a spy whether or not they were formally trained is irrelevant. :lol:

You people crack me up. You ask me to show you knowledge when all you have to do to understand this situation is exercise a mixture of historical fact and common sense. Stop being controlled by our sensationalistic media.

why doesn't the UN do something about Africa then?? because the UN is weak and it isn't the USA's war.. its Africas.. Why does it always come to africa.. Iraq and Afghanistan are staging points for the fight against Osama and the Saudis.. you can't leave a guy like saddam in charge and hope he doesn't give osama ammuniution against the US.. the US is going to clear out the arab world whether we like it or not.. so i suggest we start picking sides because very soon it is goingto get very bad and none of you can deny that.. and i am with the US so whatever they feel they need to do to keep the US safe from random starbucks blowing up or people in NY getting thier heads cut off i am with them.. I still haven't heard anybody's plan to get rid of the terrorists.. and don't say some shit like get out of the arab nations.. the land of islam.. please.. history says islam does this.. and i will waste my time because i am christian.. we will see how you feel within the next 62 days sacredawe.. 9 out of 10 times when a osama video comes out there is an attack with in 60 days..hope its not in the sunny state of florida.. don't justify your reasoning because you are an athiest.. religion is here to prevent chaos on earth.. that's all.. you can't hide behind saying christians and muslims are stupid.. there are more of use then you.. and you live in our controlled environment (christian) USA.. that is why your country might fall inot civil war is because of people like you.. I feel i am more patriotic then you towards the US and i am canadian..

[quote]You can't be serious. Inspectors are spies legally forced upon Saddam by the U.N. Every inspector who has been looking around Iraq for the past decade is a spy whether or not they were formally trained is irrelevant. Laughing

You people crack me up. You ask me to show you knowledge when all you have to do to understand this situation is exercise a mixture of historical fact and common sense. Stop being controlled by our sensationalistic media. [/quote]

Lobie is know to make things up and even when proven wrong to continue ranting the un-truths of this world. It is a form of justification to make this world a better place through lies, propaganda, and ignorance.

Cheers Mate.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=runningman]I still haven't heard anybody's plan to get rid of the terrorists.. and don't say some shit like get out of the arab nations.. the land of islam.. please.. history says islam does this.. and i will waste my time because i am christian..[/quote]

I think the US [b]should[/b] pull out of the Arab world: it's presence alone has divided it strongly and caused conflicts or worsened them. On the other hand, that could just be what they want: division is weakness. But this division only feeds anti-American sentiments, and therefore terrorism that emerges from that.

[quote=runningman]don't justify your reasoning because you are an athiest.. religion is here to prevent chaos on earth.. that's all.. you can't hide behind saying christians and muslims are stupid.. there are more of use then you.. and you live in our controlled environment (christian) USA.. that is why your country might fall inot civil war is because of people like you..[/quote]

Am I getting this right? Religion is protection and athe?sts are the cause of all this shit? [i]Are you totally deranged?[/i] Last time I looked 9 out of 10 conflicts were over religious, ethnic or economical reasons. But mostly religious. I've never seen an athe?st bomb the shit out of religious people to convince them of his 'being right'. In fact, athe?sts will give you a more unbiased world-view than any religious person, because they don't discard other options or opinions beforehand.

If you can't say anything that makes sense, then please don't post. All I've seen is you pulling open your big mouth and spewing nonsense so far. No argument/fact-based reasoning whatsoever.

It is people like you, with their tunnelvision that fuck up this planet big time.

Disrespect.

There is nothing worse in life to use the name of any God in a killing spree.

Sic, wrong, and no way resonable.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

[quote=runningman] I still haven't heard anybody's plan to get rid of the terrorists.. and don't say some shit like get out of the arab nations.. the land of islam.. please.. history says islam does this.. and i will waste my time because i am christian.. [/quote]

[quote=Yao] I think the US [b]should[/b] pull out of the Arab world: it's presence alone has divided it strongly and caused conflicts or worsened them. On the other hand, that could just be what they want: division is weakness. But this division only feeds anti-American sentiments, and therefore terrorism that emerges from that. [/quote]

This is just wrong. We can't pull out of the Arab world, nothing would change if we did. Things would only get worse. Why should we leave the Israelies to fight it all by themselves any way? I completely disagree with this stance, however Runningman, you suprise me. For a Canadian you seem to have a decent grasp on things. ;)

[quote=runningman] don't justify your reasoning because you are an athiest.. religion is here to prevent chaos on earth.. that's all.. you can't hide behind saying christians and muslims are stupid.. there are more of use then you.. and you live in our controlled environment (christian) USA.. that is why your country might fall inot civil war is because of people like you.. [/quote]

[quote=Yao] Am I getting this right? Religion is protection and athe?sts are the cause of all this shit? [i]Are you totally deranged?[/i] Last time I looked 9 out of 10 conflicts were over religious, ethnic or economical reasons. But mostly religious. I've never seen an athe?st bomb the shit out of religious people to convince them of his 'being right'. In fact, athe?sts will give you a more unbiased world-view than any religious person, because they don't discard other options or opinions beforehand. [/quote]

Once again, you are wrong Yao. You are right about war being about religion, this is true. But what you said about athiests always being unbiased is completely wrong. Athiest's are the exact same as devout Christians. Basically, athiest's DON'T believe in a god, or even consider the possibility that one exists. This is a narrow minded view to have, just like Christians with their view that there is only one god and its on their side and blah blah blah. Both sides are wrong, because neither side can know for sure what the hell they are talking about. How can you be sure there is a god Christians? How can you be sure there is no god if your an athiest?? Its just like I always say, assuming there isn't a god is just as credulous as assuming there is one.

Agnostics on the other hand, is what I am. I would never be so naive to assume that there is no god. I just require proof. This goes both ways, so I will never blindly assume that there is a god either. Much less assume that only one race, or one religious peoples will enter into heaven.

Religion is one of the main sources of ignorance in the world today, and athiests belong right there with the devout christians as far as I'm concerned. Usually dismissing anything outright that has to do with Christianity or any other religion. Whereas the Christian may be wrong, its just as wrong to completely dismiss religion as a whole and its power over the human race.

Religion really works at a personal level. There are too many factors to consider it being a global monopoly of thought and devotion. Though in general, the main moral principles behind religion and faith are truly beautiful, but time in and time out, the name of God has been used to kill, murder, and crucify the innocent public for an internal act.

It is a free choice to believe in something beautiful and pure, but one can only see that if there is a ready heart and choice to believe.

There is no right or wrong. It is a life style that one must choose to fit, if not, there are many other substantial choices.

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A35224-2004Nov8?language=printer[/url]

Kerry's gonna give the 'anti-war' president another shot in '08. Maybe he'll vote on the war a little more carefully, since he's still in the shadows. I'm sure he will only cause soldiers more blows, concidering he only wants to act as counter to Bush. :UnderCov:

I think he has a right. There were many things I liked about Kerry and I think he tends to have a good voice in things. With trigger happy Bush ... we need some person with a power of check and balance.

I just can not stand it when Liberals go on a path that does not have any remote existence on this planet and make a valid attempt to cohere the public in believing a lie.

that get's my pipes steaming.

Re: 100,000 civilians killed in Iraq?

The sad thing is that the peole just change of chanel, and close theyrs eye