Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;653038]Got any better ideas for how to deal with this?[/quote]

Yes. Don't bail out the investment banks and subsidiaries (yes, I know it's all interconnected) when $700,000,000,000 will not even begin to cover it. This 700 billion is only a band-aid and will only postpone the final tab which could run several trillion dollars. Watch the banks squander this $700 billion as doubt & fear in the financial markets suck the virtual treasury dry. Not even Hank Paulson is sure about the amount. Baby boomers are just beginning to retire in numbers and as they collectively begin to remove money from the markets, the delayed secondary crash will come calling for the motherlode. We won't even know what hit us in two or three years. Just as this economy may begin to look salvageable the bottom will fall out, and then the necessary bailout will equal at least one, maybe two or three years GDP with not even China willing to float that kind of debt in order to save world markets. A worldwide depression not seen since the 1930's will hit and following it will be record-high petroleum prices ($200/barrel?) crashing down to below $60/barrel as demand also crashes with many fewer paying customers. With 25-30% of the federal budget servicing interest on the debt (17% now ?) due partially to much reduced tax receipts, mounting unemployment, and skyrocketing inflation, the payees will be reduced to social security recipients and a substantially reduced military with little else to speak of which may make some very, very happy.

Or maybe you're right and it will work. :roll:

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;653038]Nicely put. So, got any better ideas for how to deal with this?[/quote]

Oh, sorry. I got sidetracked in the last post. My solution is to let the chips fall where they may and deal directly with the aftermath. Make due on all FDIC accts up to $100K and similar deposits whose institutions have failed. Congressionally suspend trading and freeze prices on the domestic markets (the NYSE, NASDAQ, precious metals with exception of ag, food, & fuel based commodities, home loans (see below), and the ability to buy US Saving Bonds be they junk or not) for 30-45 days (depending on feasibility of working out a congressional bill) while nerves calm and reason (hopefully) takes hold. Allow the home loans that have failed to be purchased by surviving banking firms for pennies on the dollar and be reappraised at today's value and refinanced responsibly or not all where appropriate if buyer is not credit worthy. Make selling home-loan based securities a criminal act. The originator must keep and service the loan. Take extra prudent steps to keep as many people in their homes as possible. Keep the government OUT of socializing risk in the banking system. That only sets us up for the next bubble and imprudent risk-taking.

Investors can then in 30 or 45 days assess the worth of remaining banks while the risky investment banks rightfully R.I.P. This will shore up responsible lenders and rid the economy of the riskier players. Many investors across the spectrum will lose their shirts - for sure. Out of it will emerge a leaner and modest economy not still artificially boosted by gov't subsidy which can in-turn handle the boomer retirees. In the long-run, this will be easier to take than the previously posed catastrophic scenario only postponed by an administration in panic willing to appease the investment banks with a tenuous at best federal stake. [I][B]If this federal stake fails[/B][/I] the whole house of cards will fall leading to total world economic collapse in confidence and any meaningful market value. And consider the possibilities of recovery from this when fossil fuels are out of reach for most and in ever-increasing shortage of supply. Something that was completely reversed in the 1930's and 40's.

FWIW - my speculation..

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

i don't understand why no one is taking some of the blame for this. surely someone must be responsible for this complete and utter fuck up. ag i'm so angry about this

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;652975]Yes, I agree that adding almost $1 trillion to our national debt is a really horrible and painful prospect. Ok then...so let's just do nothing. That's the alternative. How's that sound to you?

We can sit by and watch liquidity completely dry up and witness our modern economic system essentially go down in flames. And then you and I can be assured of selling apples on the street corner and standing around in soup kitchens and bread lines, just like our predecessors did in the 1930s. Feeling better already?

But hey, I guess it's worth it. Perhaps we will sleep easier at night knowing that at least we taught those bad guys a lesson and didn't get no "socialism" 'round these parts![/quote]

Don't be so mellow dramatic Mirolslav.. I'm pretty sure that the bankers have been making money for hundreds of years and they could have figured this out. See the difference between you and I is you believe that this is almost over and the $700 will turn things around. Well its not. You have bought this lie and it is Paulson and Bush paying out the bankers on the way out the door.

And I'm with cactus or tiddles not sure who said it but why hasn't anyone been held accountable for this??? That's how you know it is fucked up right there. I don't believe anything this aministration has to say. You know it's funny that instead of Bush being the point man on this they chose Paulson instead. Why?? Well the election of course. If this was a real crisis and you had a real president he would be the point man.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

700B or 1.8 Trillion?

[URL]http://www.cnbc.com/id/26808715[/URL]

[quote] —Up to $700 billion to buy assets from struggling institutions. The plan is aimed at sopping up residential and commercial mortgages from financial institutions but gives Treasury broad latitude.

—Up to $50 billion from the Great Depression-era Exchange Stabilization Fund to guarantee principal in money market mutual funds to provide the same confidence that consumers have in federally insured bank deposits.

—The Fed committed to make unspecified discount window loans to financial institutions to finance the purchase of assets from money market funds to aid redemptions.

—At least $10 billion in Treasury direct purchases of mortgage-backed securities in September. In doubling the program on Friday, the Treasury said it may purchase even more in the months ahead.

—Up to $144 billion in additional MBS purchases by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.The Treasury announced they would increase purchases up to the newly expanded investment portfolio limits of $850 billion each. On July 30, the Fannie portfolio stood at $758.1 billion with Freddie's at $798.2 billion.

—$85 billion loan for AIG, which would give the Federal government a 79.9 percent stake and avoid a bankruptcy filing for the embattled insurer. AIG management will be dismissed.

—At least $87 billion in repayments to JPMorgan Chase (JPM) for providing financing to underpin trades with units of bankrupt investment bank Lehman Brothers (LEH).

—$200 billion for Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac. The Treasury will inject up to $100 billion into each institution by purchasing preferred stock to shore up their capital as needed. The deal puts the two housing finance firms under government control.

—$300 billion for the Federal Housing Administration to refinance failing mortgage into new, reduced-principal loans with a federal guarantee, passed as part of a broad housing rescue bill.

—$4 billion in grants to local communities to help them buy and repair homes abandoned due to mortgage foreclosures.

—$29 billion in financing for JPMorgan Chase's government-brokered buyout of Bear Stearns in March. The Fed agreed to take $30 billion in questionable Bear assets as collateral, making JPMorgan liable for the first $1 billion in losses, while agreeing to shoulder any further losses.

—At least $200 billion of currently outstanding loans to banks issued through the Fed's Term Auction Facility, which was recently expanded to allow for longer loans of 84 days alongside the previous 28-day credits.[/quote]

Doing a quick add up of those figures I get $1.8 Trillion. These frellers are lying to us. They don't have the taxpayers back and they don't know what the solution is. How is it congress can bicker over the price of a toilet seat for who knows how long but when it comes to spending this kind of money they must pass it swiftly, no questions asked, and oh lets throw some other pork on the bill, yea that's sounds good.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;653083]Don't be so mellow dramatic Mirolslav.. I'm pretty sure that the bankers have been making money for hundreds of years and they could have figured this out. See the difference between you and I is you believe that this is almost over and the $700 will turn things around. Well its not. You have bought this lie and it is Paulson and Bush paying out the bankers on the way out the door.

And I'm with cactus or tiddles not sure who said it but why hasn't anyone been held accountable for this??? That's how you know it is fucked up right there. I don't believe anything this aministration has to say. You know it's funny that instead of Bush being the point man on this they chose Paulson instead. Why?? Well the election of course. If this was a real crisis and you had a real president he would be the point man.[/quote]

First of all, it's spelled "melodramatic".

Second of all, I hear you criticize a lot, as if you knew much about this situation, but I have yet to hear you offer a real solution to this crisis. All you've said is "people should know better" and "Bush should go to jail". That is not a [I]solution[/I] to this crisis.

Third, there is something called segregation of duties and powers in the US government. Read up on that and you will understand that Paulson is the "point man" on this topic because it's his job. The president is not supposed to be the "point man" of everything - that's why we have things like the Federal Reserve and the Supreme Court, which are not directly chosen or controlled by any one presidential administration.

Fourth, if you knew about the origins of securitization and the development of the banking world, you would understand that Bush did not "cause" this crisis and that it stretches well beyond the control of any one administration. Bush may be dumb, but blame him for things that are really in his direct control.

Fifth, I don't think this crisis is almost over. I just have an appreciation for how bad it will get if no action is taken.

See, the difference between you and me is that I actually know something about this stuff - I have to, because it's education and my career. It's perfectly fine to have differences of opinion and I'm not the expert on this, but honestly mate you seem way off on some of the fundamentals...I don't mean to be rude, but you do. So it is difficult to have a productive debate. I guess I'll just stop here.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;653105]First of all, it's spelled "melodramatic".

Second of all, I hear you criticize a lot, as if you knew much about this situation, but I have yet to hear you offer a real solution to this crisis. All you've said is "people should know better" and "Bush should go to jail". That is not a [I]solution[/I] to this crisis.

Third, there is something called segregation of duties and powers in the US government. Read up on that and you will understand that Paulson is the "point man" on this topic because it's his job. The president is not supposed to be the "point man" of everything - that's why we have things like the Federal Reserve and the Supreme Court, which are not directly chosen or controlled by any one presidential administration.

Fourth, if you knew about the origins of securitization and the development of the banking world, you would understand that Bush did not "cause" this crisis and that it stretches well beyond the control of any one administration. Bush may be dumb, but blame him for things that are really in his direct control.

Fifth, I don't think this crisis is almost over. I just have an appreciation for how bad it will get if no action is taken.

See, the difference between you and me is that I actually know something about this stuff - I have to, because it's education and my career. It's perfectly fine to have differences of opinion and I'm not the expert on this, but honestly mate you seem way off on some of the fundamentals...I don't mean to be rude, but you do. So it is difficult to have a productive debate. I guess I'll just stop here.[/quote]

I have already stated I failed English so get over it. I'm a math wiz. I love it though you try to insult my intelligence first to discredit me and then go on with your argument. It's a great strategy for winning a debate but it is also so predictable. On a second note John McCain doesn't know shit about economics and he is probably going to be the next president so save me the I went to University so I'm soooo smart babble.:roll::roll:

You come up with an excuse for everything. It's not Bush's problem?? Well when you are dealing with a systemic crisis you would figure the president would be the point man. I mean he was on 9/11 and this crisis is far worse then 9/11.

As far as your great knowledge of the situation I'm sorry but I have to disagree. You have said nothing of relevance other then going on with the protocol and defending everything this administration does. If the banks were to fail the only thing that would be different is that the major banks would have to absorb the failing ones. Lehman is obviously a joke since the workers are getting over $2 billion in the form of a bonus and the US government lets this happen. How would things be different if $2 billion was taken away and the Iraq surplus was taken to help pay for this crisis. Anybody with half a brain knows that this bailout is going to completely implode the dollar and gas prices are going to skyrocket. Which is directly going to kill small business(American Dream). So please don't give me that bush methodology that "it would have been much worse if we let them fail". That's horse shit!! You sound like "smoking gun, Mushroom Cloud"

apparently you are pretty alone on the bailout.

[URL]http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/america-versus-financial-elite.html[/URL]

Miroslav I found something for ya. What is your last name Miroslav?

[IMG]http://jeffreyellis.org/images/motivator_socialism.jpg[/IMG]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;653126]this crisis is far worse then 9/11.[/quote]

You surely don't believe this?

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Are you serious?? Of course I do.

This crisis can end the USA as we know it. 9/11 was an attack on what we believe but it didn't wreck the country. This will. That is why people need to wake up and take this a little more serious.

Oh Miroslav

[URL]http://rawstory.com/news/2008/Paulsons_former_firm_to_be_among_0923.html[/URL]

Go figure.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=superdave;652973] This reminds me a lot of Iraq when everyone said we had to go to war to protect ourselves.[/QUOTE]

I was starting to get this vibe, too. How many times are we going to be asked to do that we would never otherwise go along with because of a purported "emergency?"

We are about to bail out the wealthiest of the wealthy -- people who already got paid -- and plunge our nation into even more debt. Once again, our nation is in peril and the American taxpayer comes to the rescue, and I have a feeling that the execs at these companies we're bailing out are fucking ecstatic. I'm not real sure how you put the toothpaste back into the tube here in terms of profits and bonuses that have already been paid, but it's a pretty bitter pill to be asked to swallow to save the asses of those that get paid yearly bonuses that eclipse what most people make in a lifetime on the basis that, yet again, there's an "emergency."

Maybe there is an emergency, and maybe we do need to do something to prevent a meltdown of the US economy. There should be some way, though, to get restitution from the people that got us into this mess in the first place.

[/rant]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Yea. Its interesting that the former chairman of Goldman Sach's presided over what is arguably the core problem of this mess, sub-prime mortgages, is now telling us he can also bail us out of the mess......

Wow. He must be really smart.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

erik this crisis has far more reaching and dramatic impact to the world than 9-11. im not discounting the loss of life, i lost and uncle, a godfather and 3 friends in that terrible morning, but this can lead to something far more dangerous on a global scale. a. hording of basic resources i.e. food+water, b. economic war -- which is always the largest factor leading to military war , from the civil war to ww2. 3. when no one can afford oil at a certain price, you can bet that someone (probaly us) will just go take it. also, factor in the alliances that will be formed between nations ex. us+japan, vs china+russia, saudi's vs iran, brazil vs venezuala, and so forth. it has happned a few times already. i pray we get aroudn this.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE]With our economy in crisis, the US Government is scrambling to rescue our banks by purchasing their "distressed assets", i.e., assets that no one else wants to buy from them. We figured that instead of protesting this plan, we'd give regular Americans the same opportunity to sell their bad assets to the government. We need your help and you need the Government's help![/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.buymyshitpile.com/[/url]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

@ ^

re-worded for common sense -- people, give the government your shitty assests that are held privately, so EVERYONE has to pay for it in the long run.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

@ buymyshitpile..

i love on the right side. the declaration of independence for .02 cents. rotting tomatoes for 147K.

people are great.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=thesightless;653175] which is always the largest factor leading to military war , from the civil war to ww2. 3. i pray we get aroudn this.[/quote]

Agreed. This has happened before and appears to be right around the corner again.

Obviously things take time. This is a huge world with huge economies. Nevertheless, the downside always is a quick ride while the upside is slow and steady....just like a rollercoaster.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=toasty;653176][URL]http://www.buymyshitpile.com/[/URL][/quote]

[quote]The fact that [I]you[/I] think they are worth more than anyone will buy them for is what makes them bad assets.[/quote]

LOL and bingo! :lol:

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;653126]I have already stated I failed English so get over it. I'm a math wiz. I love it though you try to insult my intelligence first to discredit me and then go on with your argument. It's a great strategy for winning a debate but it is also so predictable.[/quote] Ok, here we go again!

You can vilify me however you want. I really don't care. I really didn't want this to devolve into just a character assassination attempt, but I'm sorry - your lack of knowledge on these topics is just painfully apparent to me. My only "strategy" is to be at least somewhat educated about the topics we discuss and offer an opinion based on some rational underlying evidence. It would really help if you took the time to learn at least [I]something[/I] about how liquidity works, what velocity of money means, how changes in the money supply affect things, how interest rates are fundamentally determined, how securitization works, etc. before you came back and ran your mouth. It just might enhance your credibility.

[quote=runningman;653126]On a second note John McCain doesn't know shit about economics and he is probably going to be the next president so save me the I went to University so I'm soooo smart babble.:roll::roll:[/quote] This counterpoint is unintelligible. What were you suggesting with this - that just because John McCain might be president and happens to share your lack of information of economics and finance, that this is somehow a justification of your viewpoint? That doesn't even make coherent, rational sense.

[quote=runningman;653126]As far as your great knowledge of the situation I'm sorry but I have to disagree. You have said nothing of relevance other then going on with the protocol and defending everything this administration does. If the banks were to fail the only thing that would be different is that the major banks would have to absorb the failing ones.[/quote] Seriously, do you not even get how little sense your suggestion here makes? This is exactly what I'm referring to when I refer to your lack of knowledge on these issues. You can't have the major banks absorb the failing ones because (hello!) [B]it's the major banks that are failing[/B]. There are no bigger banks out there to absorb them. And if you take an AIG or some other behemoth and stick it on the shoulders of Goldman, what's going to happen? Goldman will just collapse, too.

A loss can only be absorbed by someone with deep enough pockets to do so. Show me someone who can take almost an accumulated $1 trillion in losses except for perhaps the entire nation of taxpayers (and even then maybe not).

[quote=runningman;653126]apparently you are pretty alone on the bailout.

[URL]http://georgewashington2.blogspot.com/2008/09/america-versus-financial-elite.html[/URL] [/quote] It doesn't look smart to proclaim me as "pretty alone on the bailout" on the basis of one biased blog entry. I could just as easily spend all day posting biased blog entries about how economists favor some sort of a bailout. But I won't, because I know it's a waste of time. But I will point out that if you actually READ the articles in that blog link you posted (did you even read them?), you might see that most of the quoted economists DO indicate that they favor some sort of government-led intervention right now, they just don't like the [I]specifics of Paulson's plan[/I].

I happen to generally agree with them. I never said that I was supportive of Paulson's particular plan. I think some form of government intervention is sadly necessary - and by the way, so do very many reputable economists (I would wager that most do, but I don't have any hard data). But I think Paulson's plan lacks oversight and gives him too much freedom.

[quote=runningman;653126]Miroslav I found something for ya. What is your last name Miroslav? [/quote] I'm not giving it to you.

This is just devolving into general mud-slinging, and I doubt that you'll take the time to read and comprehend anything I wrote before you reply. So let's just drop it here.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[url]http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aEyg9syOgmjE&refer=home[/url]

This guy Bernanke is on crack. Lets just assume these bad debts will be good....

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Why aren't we as Americans demanding there be hearings before this bloated government "solution" is adopted? My guess is because government (both parties) as a whole played a large part in creating this mess...

We had highly-publicized hearings for "steroids in baseball"; yet I honestly believe we won't this time, because there's way too many politicians at fault on this one...

This time around (when the problem is far more serious), the finger-pointing and denial begins, while we all are left to suffer...

throw them all out !!!

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Exactly how can you decide to give away $700 Billion to your best friends with no inquiry and then have this big investigation on Roger Clemens over steroid use. Just goes to show how lost the US really is.

It was funny today watching Paulson and Bernake try to persuade the Congress to sign the blank check. How after a weekend can you figure out what to do with $700 billion??

Oh ya and Miro I'm smarter then you..:lol::lol: and that's all I have to say.;)

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=runningman;653307] Oh ya and Miro I'm smarter then you..:lol::lol: and that's all I have to say.;)[/quote] Ok. You can keep telling yourself whatever you want. It really makes no difference to me.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;653345]Ok. The evidence I have seen doesn't seem to support your assertion....because some of your actual reasoning is incoherent and/or in contradiction to widely accepted academic principles.

[/quote]

his logic is way over your head man. what you think is incoherent is pure genius. obviously this is case in point.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

^^ I see you caught my earlier edit. I deleted it because I've already let this devolve far too much into a pissing contest.

I present my case forcefully, but I strive to focus on the perceived merit of opinions and supporting evidence, and not to stoop to the level of personal attacks. My apologies to all if I got too heated and fell short of that expectation in some of my comments here.

I've said just about all I have to say on this topic, so I'll take a break and go elsewhere now for a while. The last thing I would leave with is:

It's ironic that government intervention seems to be our only hope now, because in some sense it was government intervention that originally got us into this mess. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should never have been allowed to grow into the monopolies they were. Monetary policy should not have been as loose during Greenspan's years. With less government meddling originally, we might not have had the housing bubble and the severe consequenes that we're now dealing with. And with or without the bailout, we'll be in for a very rough ride. Supply and demand simply need to adjust and America needs to de-leverage itself, and it will take some time and pain.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=Miroslav;653359]

It's ironic that government intervention seems to be our only hope now, because in some sense it was government intervention that originally got us into this mess. Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac should never have been allowed to grow into the monopolies they were. Monetary policy should not have been as loose during Greenspan's years. With less government meddling originally, we might not have had the housing bubble and the severe consequenes that we're now dealing with. And with or without the bailout, we'll be in for a very rough ride. Supply and demand simply need to adjust and America needs to de-leverage itself, and it will take some time and pain.[/quote]

Absolutely. And this is the very reason the bailout, as it is right now, is not what the doctor ordered.

The fact is we as a nation have had an oversupply of housing at absurd pricing and on top of that, its all been leveraged beyond anyone can possibly afford. This fact is still in force, too many houses out there, prices are still high relative to the historical mean and leverage is enforce enmasse.

Everyone is also at the moment, focused on housing still. The leverage is everywhere and the consumer and business simply cannot service this debt now or for very much longer.

So to have the government step in and buy this leverage, when no one can afford it to begin with, will allow only one thing......more leverage to ensue and on top of that, people will feel emboldened for the casual reference to the government is now guaranteeing everyone.

None of this even begins to touch on how the government itself is the most leveraged entity out there.

Its sad to acknowledge that election time is just around the corner and we all know that at the end of the day a politician will do above all else, anything to get re-elected. So these clowns will most likely pass this bafoonery, not because they think its the right thing to do, probably they have no idea what to do, but just so it looks like they did something and if, this doesn't work they can say to us, well we tried, its not our fault.

I believe everyone must take blame for this historic credit contraction. There are some who are more to blame then others, but its been an historic ride up this bubble, maybe it has some years to go, who knows, but it will burst and this will be the biggest bubble of the modern era.

The argument that this is a liquidity issue is one I don't go along with. Its a sound argument and most people i think belive it. This is a [B]solvency[/B] issue. Totally different beast.

PS...Something I forgot to add....Fractional Reserves. This is why these Banks are just piles of drell. Banks have not been required to have any reserves for years, its all lent out and leveraged further to lend again. A vicious circle that is coming home to roost. Paulson and his buddies are doing everything to save their sorry asses.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=k3n3;653297]Why aren't we as Americans demanding there be hearings before this bloated government "solution" is adopted?[/quote]

There were hearings today. Chris Dodd, head of the Senate Banking Committee said he could not support the plan that Bush sent him. Not sure what or how many changes would make a difference, but I think that CEO pay and bonus limitations need to be part of it. You can either turn on C-Span or watch it anytime streaming on the web at [URL]http://www.c-span.org/[/URL] Here is the link for the video of the hearing : [URL]rtsp://video1.c-span.org/project/economy/econ092308_banking.rm[/URL]

Bush also met with congressional Republicans who said they could not vote for such a bill to try to change their minds.

I for one am hoping this thing never sees the President's desk. This administration barters and preys on fear. If you got fear, you are in Bush's crosshairs and may submit to his agenda. I am less fearfull of us taking our freeking medicine collectively than signing a check over to these guys so they can make their stupid yacht payments and cover a bunch of bad paper. We need a good recession to learn from this. In my view, it's either a recession now, or a depression just a little bit later (when the bailout fails and there's no money left). How many here can remember the Great Depression?? Not I.

Take our lumps I say... It would be tough, but it might bring Americans together again. Can that be so bad? Money comes, money goes. There is more to life than money. When was the last time anyone used the word "thrift?" Tough times define one's character. We in the US are just all too soft to take collective responsibility for the mess that collective greed got us into.

Sad...

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

"We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself," - [URL="http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/09/23/extra_bonus_quote_of_the_day.html"]Republican Party Platform[/URL], 2008.

[URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hnrZrlxjI0"][/URL]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=88Mariner;653432]"We do not support government bailouts of private institutions. Government interference in the markets exacerbates problems in the marketplace and causes the free market to take longer to correct itself," - [URL="http://politicalwire.com/archives/2008/09/23/extra_bonus_quote_of_the_day.html"]Republican Party Platform[/URL], 2008.

[/quote]

[SIZE=7]HA!![/SIZE] Hypocrites. They went back on that before the ink dried

I agree that this absolutely has the capacity to dwarf 9/11 as a crisis. We really don't need to worry about Al-Quaida as an enemy when compared to our own actions which endanger our way of life the most. Who is our own worst enemy? Look in the mirror. :twisted:

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[url]http://sanders.senate.gov/petitions/?petition=financial_crisis_1[/url]

Well, I don't much agree with the proposals in this petition but at least its a senator trying to do something different. Take a look and make up your own mind.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

people are protesting everywhere right now.. nobody wants the bailout. here is a great article about Bush and his failure as a leader. All that Bush ever has to offer is fear. The US is supposed to be the home of the brave. I hate Bush so much... Bush is trying to wreck the USA in my opinion.

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/25/opinion/25thu1.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&partner=MYWAY&pagewanted=print&oref=slogin[/URL]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

i dont know if this has been posted before but whatever..

one thing from Bush's little speech that i feel is horrible.

this bailout may fix things for the immediate future but down the road things will only get worse....

once the government buys up all of the worthless options or whatever, they are making the ASSUMPTION that these options will be worth something in the future.

once thing i learned is that you NEVER assume anything.

what if these options or whatever they are buying up, never do go back to normal and not be worth something in the future?

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[QUOTE=ddr;654400]i dont know if this has been posted before but whatever..

one thing from Bush's little speech that i feel is horrible.

this bailout may fix things for the immediate future but down the road things will only get worse....

once the government buys up all of the worthless options or whatever, they are making the ASSUMPTION that these options will be worth something in the future.

once thing i learned is that you NEVER assume anything.

what if these options or whatever they are buying up, never do go back to normal and not be worth something in the future?[/QUOTE]

Exactly and Bush said in his speech that we would get the $700 billion back over time. These are like investments that will pay off over time. The government will wait out being paid off.

Sounds familiar and like those promises that the Iraq war would pay for itself with the low gas prices and oil from Iraq.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

OK, back from my break...

The more I've learned about the specifics of the plan, the less I like it. While I do think that intervention may be necessary, I don't think it necessarily has to be in the form of a barely regulated $700b. One of my primary concerns is that certain entities [I]should[/I] be allowed to fail - in fact, we should allow as much to fail as possible without threatening the fundamental viability of the entire financial system. I'm for a plan to ensure that the system doesn't summarily flop, but I think this one goes too far.

[quote=ddr;654400]once the government buys up all of the worthless options or whatever, they are making the ASSUMPTION that these options will be worth something in the future.

once thing i learned is that you NEVER assume anything.

what if these options or whatever they are buying up, never do go back to normal and not be worth something in the future?[/quote] My interpretation is that the government isn't really contemplating taking these actions with the vision that they will be worth anything... All they are really focused on doing right now is simply to remove losses and funnel cash into the financial system to keep banks from failing - right or wrong. And that cash comes from you and me.

If the economy would theoretically recover over some period of time, then yes in that sense we'll "get it back"...

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisks-world-bush-rescues-wall-street-but-leaves-his-soldiers-to-die-in-iraq-944071.html[/URL]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

I think I've changed my mind on this. I'm still against it, but the utility that passing this bill provides is so much greater for me and mainstreet than whatever tax dollars that have already been taken away from me and will be taken away from me.

And that utility is time.

I'm almost certain at this point that if this bill doesn't get passed by monday, we've got about a week before it starts collapsing in on itself. The baillout buys us time, time to restructure debts, time for the financial industry (the real backbone of our economy) to get thier stuff sorted out. Looking at what happened to Bear Stearns and Lehman and AIG and so on and so on, thier problems had become way worse quicker than they were able to cope with it, where even drastic measures could not help. I look at it as the difference between a high speed car-crash (this week) and a car-crash in slow-mo (Over the next year or so) The difference will be the psychology and its' affect on people (irrational actors as most of us here know), thier response, the response of the financial sector, and about everyone else. If the economy tanks in the week, everything falls apart. shipping and transportation shops. massive layoffs ('m predicting 20% unemployment) occur almost simultaneously.

And ALL of this before an election: Bush would CERTAINLY put together executive orders for [U][I]you know what[/I]. [/U]I did write a thread on this saying just the opposite, that Bush is doing things to push his executive power further, quicker. But I've re-read his speaches and he's actually against all of this, but says we've got to do something, much like a surgeon who's facing a patient that is getting worse and worse. The surgeon can't say 'fuck it, let it die, things will come back". He's the president of the united states, he's gotta do something. And my gut tells me his advisors have already discussed the utility of time at this point. I don't think the democrats understand this utility whatsoever, and I don't think they understand the effects they will cause; but intentions, motives, intelligence, and education aside, the outcome is what matters the most.

[U]In turn[/U], as far as foreign policy goes, things get blearker. Russia would, as I think they will, invade into georgia and other dictators and terrorists groups will take advantage of the situation. The fact is, such a quick snap of the economy at breakneck speeds completely destroys our global security structure. It would be neutralized. I really can't even begin to discuss what will happen, and I don't even want to speculate on the stuff that [I]might[/I] happen, which is exponentially worse.

You all here know that I've been against this bailout. I'm still against it, but goddamnit, the time that it buys us, and everyone else dependant upon our financial system, economy, and security, need it too. It gives people time to shift thier portfolios into commodities (my suggestion). I really can't underscore the psychological impact enough.

To quote barack obama out of context, "preparation is key". And getting extra time is crucial to all of this. It's the most limited resource we have, and the most important one to have at dispossal.

I can't say I've seen this discussion on the utility of time talked about anywhere else. It hit me hard this afternoon after I heard a Bank CEO commit suicide this afternoon, and it dawned upon me the instant shock that would paralyze almost everything and almost everyone.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

[quote=bobjuice;654759][URL]http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/fisk/robert-fisks-world-bush-rescues-wall-street-but-leaves-his-soldiers-to-die-in-iraq-944071.html[/URL][/quote]

thanks for posting this, it is a point i was discussing earlier with some austrian economic theory commrades. Thing is, if we dont' have anything to pay these soldiers with, do you really think they're gonna keep working over there? it is, essentially, a mercenary force: we pay them, and they do work. It's not great work, but still. Go back to the above post about our national security structure being neutralized. Fisk is only concerned with making a point and making a buck in his pocket. I even agree wiht like most of what he says. but he completely discounts the enormity of this potential disaster. [I]if we can't even afford to keep our troops over there....and there's no jobs for them here at home....:?:[/I]

one other point; why can we not create an exchange for mortgages and such????? throw into the hands of the market.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

looks like we will have a bailout deal this coming week. It's better than it was before, as it includes an oversight process, limits on exec pay, and some safegueards for taxpayers. But it's still obviously expensive. I think this is about as good as this will get for us. It'll probably pass with relative ease.

[URL]http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/28/news/economy/Sunday_talks_bailout/index.htm?cnn=yes[/URL] [quote] [B]Doling the money out: [/B]The $700 billion would be disbursed in stages, with $250 billion made available immediately for the Treasury's use.

[B]Limiting executive pay: [/B]Curbs will be placed on the compensation of executives at companies that sell mortgage assets to Treasury. Among them, companies that participate will not be able to deduct the salary they pay to executives above $500,000. They also will not be allowed to write new contracts that allow for "golden parachutes" for their top 5 executives if they are fired or the company goes belly up. But the executives' current contracts, which may include golden parachutes, would still stand.

[B]Overseeing the program:[/B] An oversight board will be created. The board will include the Federal Reserve chairman, the Securities and Exchange Commission chairman, the Federal Home Finance Agency director and the Housing and Urban Development secretary.

[B]Protecting taxpayers: [/B]One provision requires the president to propose legislation to recoup losses from the financial industry if the rescue plan results in net losses to taxpayers five years after the plan is enacted. In addition, Treasury will be allowed to take ownership stakes in participating companies.

[B]Insuring against losses:[/B] Treasury must establish an insurance program - with risk-based premiums paid by the industry - to guarantee companies' troubled assets, including mortgage-backed securities, purchased before March 14, 2008. The amount the Treasury would spend to cover losses minus company-paid premiums would come out of the $700 billion the Treasury is allowed to use for the rescue plan.[/quote]

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

well when you have $700 billion up for grabs everybody wants their little piece. that is what is taking the longest figuring out what everybody wants.. 8 months from now we are going to wish we never did this.

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

Got this today. Is he off the mark or does he have some valid points:?:

[U]The Rich Are Staging a Coup This Morning ...a message from Michael Moore‏[/U]

Friends, Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies -- who must soon vacate the White House -- are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door. No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/business/22lobby.html"][COLOR=#0068cf]lead story[/COLOR][/URL] in last Monday's New York Times and you can see what the real deal is: [INDENT]"Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.

"Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.

"At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.

"Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury's proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions." [/INDENT]Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be [URL="http://www.nydailynews.com/news/politics/2008/09/25/2008-09-25_rudy_giulianis_crass_opportunism_reflect.html"][COLOR=#0068cf]hired (and paid)[/COLOR][/URL] to "consult" in the bailout. The problem is, nobody truly knows what this "collapse" is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn't know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can't figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone. And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling! Falling for whom? NOTHING in this "bailout" package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance. Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What's this got to do with the Wall Street collapse? It has everything to do with it. This so-called "collapse" was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people's home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it's because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn't afford. Here's the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2005/02/02/business/02insure.html"][COLOR=#0068cf]medical bills[/COLOR][/URL]. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage "crisis" may never have happened. This bailout's mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It's to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It's to make sure their yachts and mansions and "way of life" go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars! I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something -- NOW! Here's what you can do immediately:

1. [URL="http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/cgi-bin/newmemberbio.cgi?lang=&member=ILJR&site=ctc&address=&city=&state=IL&zipcode=&plusfour="][COLOR=#0068cf]Call[/COLOR][/URL] or [URL="http://my.barackobama.com/page/s/contact2"][COLOR=#0068cf]e-mail Senator Obama[/COLOR][/URL]. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they've made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what's the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. [URL="http://truemajority.wiredforchange.com/event/distributedEventCalendar.jsp"][COLOR=#0068cf]Participate[/COLOR][/URL] in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. ([URL="http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/"][COLOR=#0068cf]click here to find their phone numbers[/COLOR][/URL]). Tell them what you told Senator Obama. When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again! Yours, Michael Moore [EMAIL="mmflint@aol.com"][COLOR=#0068cf]MMFlint@aol.com[/COLOR][/EMAIL] [URL="http://www.michaelmoore.com/"][COLOR=#0068cf]MichaelMoore.com[/COLOR][/URL] P.S. Having read further the details of this bailout bill, you need to know you are being lied to. They talk about how they will prevent golden parachutes. It says NOTHING about what these executives and fat cats will make in SALARY. According to Rep. Brad Sherman of California, these top managers will continue to receive million-dollar-a-month paychecks under this new bill. There is no direct ownership given to the American people for the money being handed over. Foreign banks and investors will be allowed to receive billion-dollar handouts. A large chunk of this $700 billion is going to be given directly to Chinese and Middle Eastern banks. There is NO guarantee of ever seeing that money again. P.P.S. From talking to people I know in DC, they say the reason so many Dems are behind this is because Wall Street this weekend put a gun to their heads and said either turn over the $700 billion or the first thing we'll start blowing up are the pension funds and 401(k)s of your middle class constituents. The Dems are scared they may make good on their threat. But this is not the time to back down or act like the typical Democrat we have witnessed for the last eight years. The Dems handed a stolen election over to Bush. The Dems gave Bush the votes he needed to invade a sovereign country. Once they took over Congress in 2007, they refused to pull the plug on the war. And now they have been cowered into being accomplices in the crime of the century. You have to [URL="http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/"][COLOR=#0068cf]call them now[/COLOR][/URL] and say "NO!" If we let them do this, just imagine how hard it will be to get anything good done when President Obama is in the White House. THESE DEMOCRATS ARE ONLY AS STRONG AS THE BACKBONE WE GIVE THEM. [URL="http://www.visi.com/juan/congress/"][COLOR=#0068cf]CALL CONGRESS NOW[/COLOR][/URL].

Re: Bush's $700,000,000,000 Bailout!!!

It's funny that while the bailout is being digested wallstreet is still down 250 (make that 300 it went down 50 more points while I wrote this) so far today. The US would be better off taking $700 billion and dropping it off in cash to all major cities.

Look at this shit

[URL]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080926/ap_on_bi_ge/financial_meltdown_1146[/URL]

No consideration at all for the little guy. There should be a nation wide vote on this bailout.