I know a lot of people around here are from Europe and I was wondering how you feel about Obama giving speeches over there. People I talk to are either bothered that he is spending time there rather than here and then the others are in agreeance with him that we need to reinforce our relationship with the European countries.

Re: Obama in Europe

i know your post isn't directed to me (I'm American), but it's sure damn glad to get at least one candidate out of the country until the conventions. Of course, the media coverage has not concommitantly dropped as a result..... grrr! Take McLame, will y'all?

Re: Obama in Europe

[url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/gerard_baker/article4392846.ece[/url]

This is effin hilarious. Leave it to the Brits to start the humour.

Re: Obama in Europe

Dutchie here

On the one hand it's nice to see him get out here and at least making the effort to talk to European people, possibly getting to know one of his potentially biggest allies a little better, but let's face it: this could also be done without all the fuss and media coverage, so I'm rating this a media stunt.

He'd better get elected president and then make some real work visits with not just European partners, but especially in troubled areas if he really wants to get to know them...

Re: Obama in Europe

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica][quote=Yao[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica];628716] but let's face it: this could also be done without all the fuss and media coverage, so I'm rating this a media stunt. [/FONT][/quote][/COLOR]

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica]With you on that one [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]Yao[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]. Listening to the speeches he's been giving it's the same tired, boilerplate campaign material he's been saying since day one, "Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall" or "Ich bin ein Berliner" this is not. Not a bad move on his part though, if the consensus is that the current president alienated the US from these countries then why not make a stop over there yourself to paint you as the opposite.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica]It is amusing to see how the two sides react though. When asked why Obama is out traipsing around [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]Europe[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica] as a candidate for the American president, the response from his camp is "Well this isn't a campaign stop! When the President visits [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]Europe[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica] it's not for campaign purposes" [/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Helvetica][COLOR=silver]Yeah...but Obama isn't the President. He's a Jr Senator who is [I][FONT=Helvetica]running [/FONT][/I]for President.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica]Then of course McCain sends a jab like "I'd like to be out giving speeches in [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]Europe[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica] but I'd rather do it in the good ol' US of A". [/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica].....right after he returned from giving speeches in [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]South America[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica].[/FONT][/COLOR]

[FONT=Helvetica][COLOR=silver]What wonderful options we have this November... [/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Helvetica][COLOR=silver](Sorry to hijack, go on with the chlorophyll)[/COLOR][/FONT]

Re: Obama in Europe

No matter what anyone says, it's an obvious campaign event and it's been an enormously successful one, I think. Leading up to the trip, the coverage was very focused upon whether he would be able to make it through the trip without making a serious error. Not only has he not made a serious error, he's received glowing coverage almost across the board. McCain should actually be happy that Obama has so monopolized the coverage this week, because he's made some enormous mistakes himself that have gone largely unnoticed. The guy stakes his presidency on his "surge" strategy, but he thinks the surge caused the Anbar Awakening? He ought to have to forfeit over that big an error. :roll:

Although it is in some respects motivated by self-interest (i.e., a desire to get elected), I don't see Obama's message to those in Europe and the Mid-East as being insincere. Most of us in the US realize that the relationships with have with our allies around the world are important, further realize that Bush has done incredible damage to those relationships, and view restoring those relationships and America's place as a welcome member of the world community as critical going forward. Obama, more than McCain who is content to follow the same policies that got us into this mess, understands this and represents a sharp departure from Bush's "Hey, fuck you," attitude. I've actually been really heartened to see the reaction of people in other countries to Obama, because it leads me to believe that all is not lost, and that we can get back into the good graces of our allies.

His message to the Europeans is important, but it, along with his positive reception by the rest of the world, also sends an important message to voters back home that he gives us the best chance to restore our standing in the world.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=BSully828;628767][COLOR=silver][font=Helvetica][/COLOR]

[COLOR=silver][FONT=Helvetica]Then of course McCain sends a jab like "I'd like to be out giving speeches in [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica]Europe[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica] but I'd rather do it in the good ol' US of A". [/FONT][/COLOR]

[/quote]

He also says he would rather wait until he is president to do it lol.

Re: Obama in Europe

People here welcomed him cheering like he is our president. :what We have Angie already as chancellor though. :lol: Mood here is very much pro Obama and as far as I heard people talking they are somehow glad the USA shows interests in better relationships for the Future and seems to get one step away from the "there is us and then there is the rest" attitude which is no longer healthy in global market times.

Re: Obama in Europe

i hate obama...

Re: Obama in Europe

^Thanks for the input Shosh.

Re: Obama in Europe

^Was thinking the same thing. I wonder if he even knows why, or if it's just the knee-jerk reaction?

Re: Obama in Europe

probably the latter, but he'll respond that he knows why he hates him, then will proceed to regurgitate all the talking points that have been knocked down: reverend wright, he's a muslim, he hates america, blah blah blah. fair enough i guess. sadly tho there are a lot of people in backwoods arkansas that think the same way that never show up in polls etc. So when election time hits, the republicans automatically get a ton of votes that never get counted pre-election.

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=Jenks;628833]sadly tho there are a lot of people in backwoods arkansas that think the same way that never show up in polls etc. So when election time hits, the republicans automatically get a ton of votes that never get counted pre-election.[/QUOTE]

hopefully, that will be offset by the cell-phone only younger folks that also don't make their way into polling. Assuming they get out and vote.

Re: Obama in Europe

hopefully all that will be upset by patriots who can open their fuckin eyes and see better not vote with obama just because he can promise you shit wrapped in gold.

sad that so many dumb young people are stupid enough to vote for all the obama bullshit.

just because someone lives in arkansas does not make them inferior to you, does it? oh wait but if i make a joke about obama being black thats fuckin offensive? god spare us if that fucker becomes president.

go read more about our founding fathers, go read more about what this country was built on and what it used to stand for and stop being pussies

Re: Obama in Europe

I think Bush needs to re-read that document as well, because as far as I know it hasn't given any president a wild card to go and start wars all over the feckin planet.

Protecting your values and culture is something completely different from going outside and imposing them on other people. Is that so hard to see?

Re: Obama in Europe

awww, poor shosh.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=Yao;628853]I think Bush needs to re-read that document as well, because as far as I know it hasn't given any president a wild card to go and start wars all over the feckin planet.

Protecting your values and culture is something completely different from going outside and imposing them on other people. Is that so hard to see?[/quote]

stfu, you live in holland (jk)

go tell that to someone who lives under an oppressive regime. go tell that to the iraqis who have been killed by saddam. wait, you cant because.... they're dead? right... go to fuckin iraq and ask them if they have a better life now or before with saddam.

jenks - its because of you and others who follow the fuckin socialist ideologies of the liberals and fail to see the truth because obamas ass hair is in their way that the country is in grave danger.

Re: Obama in Europe

Jenks a socialist liberal? Good one. :lol:

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=TomTom;628859]Jenks a socialist liberal? Good one. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Was thinking the very same thing. :lol::lol::lol:

Re: Obama in Europe

learn how to read... i said he follows them... he is following obama ...

fuck tomtom... go ask your east german brothers how much they liked living in communism, then tell jenks and toasty so they know what to expect

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=shosh;628857] jenks - its because of you and others who follow the fuckin socialist ideologies of the liberals and fail to see the truth because obamas ass hair is in their way that the country is in grave danger.[/QUOTE]

:lol: you reeeeeeeeeally don't know me chief, or what you're talking about.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=shosh;628862]learn how to read... i said he follows them... he is following obama ...

fuck tomtom... go ask your east german brothers how much they liked living in communism, then tell jenks and toasty so they know what to expect[/quote]

^^ Our country was full of "only followers" back in the days. How can you follow an ideology without believing in it to some extent.

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=shosh;628862] fuck tomtom.[/QUOTE]

i've known tom for many years now, he's a good friend, but i am not going to fuck him.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=TomTom;628864]^^ Our country was full of "only followers" back in the days. How can you follow an ideology without believing in it to some extent.[/quote]

dude, thats what this country is full of... most people have no clue what obama stands for, and they just vote for him because hes young or black or stupid. look at black vote... you really want to tell me that all those black people know what obama stands for? hell no, they just vote for him cause hes black. hell most of them probably cant read but they think he is going to help them out, which he said he was going to do. as for the rest, its the stupid new wave of thought of our generation, degrading all of our values and everything it used to stand for.

Re: Obama in Europe

People get the leaders they deserve Shosh, different doesn't necessarily mean better. And despite what they tell you, I for one do not believe that Iraqi's are better off right now than they were before.

Who are you to tell someone else what 'the right way' is, who am I to do that? I want my values and country to be protected, but I sure as hell won't be the arrogant prick telling everyone how they should lead their lives or manage their friggin country.

The other side is just as simple: I'm an anthroplogist, I study cultures. And even though there is so much that I don't like in some other cultures, don't understand, don't appreciate or respect, there is also much that I do find interesting, cool, lovely and even complentary to my own culture and worldview. This world my not be perfect and not everything has to be your cup of tea, but if you look around a bit you might just find a lot out there that could make your life a bit richer bro. Seriously.

Re: Obama in Europe

wow, you shosh are like the perfect image of a right wing nut job, its like listening to rush limbaugh, the only thing you guys can concentrate on is on bashing the democrats, but youre still not able to convince people of the better side republicans can bring.

if you dont like obama, thats cool, go on and vote for mcain, but please do us a favor and stop trying to convince the rest of the country that its wrong to vote for obama, by the same token, please try and make your own topics in wich you can highlight some of mcains virtues, instead of always hijacking obama threads to only look like a crying baby.

thanks.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=Cj Tari;628870]wow, you shosh are like the perfect image of a right wing nut job, its like listening to rush limbaugh, the only thing you guys can concentrate on is on bashing the democrats, but youre still not able to convince people of the better side republicans can bring.

if you dont like obama, thats cool, go on and vote for mcain, but please do us a favor and stop trying to convince the rest of the country that its wrong to vote for obama, by the same token, please try and make your own topics in wich you can highlight some of mcains virtues, instead of always hijacking obama threads to only look like a crying baby.

thanks.[/quote]

u mad?

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=toasty;628788]His message to the Europeans is important, but it, along with his positive reception by the rest of the world, also sends an important message to voters back home that he gives us the best chance to restore our standing in the world.[/quote]

But in terms of the average American, where do you think "Global Opinion" lies on the list of priorities?

All we have heard from both campaigns so far is that Joe America is suffering. He can't afford his house, he can't afford to fuel his car, can't afford milk and bread to feed his family (I'm a little tounge-in-cheek here but I'm just going off the "end is nigh" rhetoric I've heard from both parties). If such a portrait is true, do you think the average American even cares what Germany or France thinks of us? Wouldn't he be much more concerned with Obama's plan re: settling things down domestically over patching things up internationally?

The problem I have with Obama is that he is so clearly trying to be all things to all people. I can't say it is a trait unique to him because it is what election-year politics has become; appease the most, ruffle the least, and cram as much "together we can" into every speech you give.

If you are pro-Obama his message of hope is invigorating and inspiring, finally a candidate we can believe in!

If you are anti-Obama his message is vapid and misleading, a sliver-tounged suit leading the sheep down a dangerous path.

If you are like me his message is nothing new, it's the same message we heard in July of 2006, 2004, 2002, 2000, 1998, 1996 an so on. One that is full of weight and promise now, but will turn to smoke when the candidate takes office (whoever that might be)

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=shosh;628851] just because someone lives in arkansas does not make them inferior to you, does it? [/QUOTE]

Clearly, you've never visited Arkansas. ;):lol:

[QUOTE=shosh;628851] oh wait but if i make a joke about obama being black thats fuckin offensive? [/QUOTE]

actually dude, your "joke" from that thread way back when [B]was [/B]offensive. Anytime you throw the n-word into the equation, you're crossing a line. It wasn't funny.

[QUOTE=shosh;628867]dude, thats what this country is full of... most people have no clue what obama stands for, and they just vote for him because hes young or black or stupid. look at black vote... you really want to tell me that all those black people know what obama stands for? hell no, they just vote for him cause hes black. hell most of them probably cant read but they think he is going to help them out, which he said he was going to do. as for the rest, its the stupid new wave of thought of our generation, degrading all of our values and everything it used to stand for.[/QUOTE]

Most of this doesn't even warrant a response, but it does bear mentioning that the Democrats getting the overwhelming bulk of the black vote is hardly a new phenomenon. You can't say that black democrats are voting for Obama solely because he's black any more than you can say that white republicans [I]aren't[/I] voting for him solely because he's black. A lot of those votes will happen no matter who the nominee is.

What I don't understand is the venom, the rage, the anger. I disagree with McCain and I think he's 100% wrong for the country right now, but I don't hate the guy at all. Where is this coming from?

Actually, don't answer that. Not sure I really want to know.

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=BSully828;628885]But in terms of the average American, where do you think "Global Opinion" lies on the list of priorities?

All we have heard from both campaigns so far is that Joe America is suffering. He can't afford his house, he can't afford to fuel his car, can't afford milk and bread to feed his family (I'm a little tounge-in-cheek here but I'm just going off the "end is nigh" rhetoric I've heard from both parties). If such a portrait is true, do you think the average American even cares what Germany or France thinks of us? Wouldn't he be much more concerned with Obama's plan re: settling things down domestically over patching things up internationally? [/QUOTE]

Well, the average American should care, because we now live in a global economy, and all of these things are intertwined. He was actually asked this very question (Why should Americans care about his European trip) in a CNN interview that will be airing later today. Whether Americans will actually get it is another question, I suppose, but I haven't heard anyone that would otherwise be considering voting for him up in arms over the fact that he's over there and not here.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=shosh;628882]u mad?[/quote]

haha no, im not mad, i know most of the things you state in here are just to mess around.

but still, like i said before, its like listening to talk radio, its all about bashing the other side yet, youre not able to make youre own side look good.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=toasty;628893]but I haven't heard anyone that would otherwise be considering voting for him up in arms over the fact that he's over there and not here.[/quote]

Which is precisely my point. Those that are pro-Obama are going to align their view to see his actions in the best possible light. Those who are anti-Obama will do just the opposite. One side oft he fence sees this trip as a triumphant step towards the return of America as respected leader, the other a weak-kneed Eurotrip of ballwashing and Americabashing.

These two sides are not the sides in question - their vote has already been cast and there is little he can do to sway their opinion one way or the other - it lies with those in between. And to those of us in between this whole event is just another trip down a very well-traveled path. Full of sound and fury but......well you know the rest.

I wish I could get as motivated and inspiried by his words as others are, I really do. That kind of passion is what the people need in order to take interest in the ruling body that governs our lives. But I see very little in Obama that I didn't see in the endless string of previous candidates that spoke glowing promise of what they will do, then fail in the face of the giant machine that is Washington.

Re: Obama in Europe

^^Well, let me ask you this, serious questions:

1. Do you agree with me that Obama puts the US in a better position to regain some credibility with the rest of the world?
2. Does that matter to you?

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=shosh;628857]stfu, you live in holland (jk)

go tell that to someone who lives under an oppressive regime. go tell that to the iraqis who have been killed by saddam. wait, you cant because.... they're dead? right... go to fuckin iraq and ask them if they have a better life now or before with saddam.

jenks - its because of you and others who follow the fuckin socialist ideologies of the liberals and fail to see the truth because obamas ass hair is in their way that the country is in grave danger.[/quote]

If you're gung ho about Iraq, by all means, feel free to join a mercenary group and head on over there. Just don't use my tax money to lose millions of dollars of weapons and frivolously waste on the private sector who have half-assed the progress in Iraq.

Re: Obama in Europe

Shosh your vitriol is so misplaced it's laughable. I'm interested in hearing some positive points you see in McCain (honestly). Instead of bashing Obama so much, talk up McCain some.

Re: Obama in Europe

[quote=MJDub;628930]Shosh your vitriol is so misplaced it's laughable. I'm interested in hearing some positive points you see in McCain (honestly). Instead of bashing Obama so much, talk up McCain some.[/quote]

• he's not obama
• he's not as liberal as obama
• he will continue to fight terrorism and keep our country safe
• can you imagine obama as commander in chief? mccain is a true patriot, has military experience, wont cut our military budget to hurt us
• he wont throw away our last 5 years in iraq, he will try to win that war
• is pro life
• is pro gun
• is pro sanctity of marriage
• wants to end illegal immigration
• will keep bush tax cuts
• he's against socialized medicine
• he's willing to work with democrats and has proven it
• i'm a white successful male - voting obama will hurt me
• is a supporter of offshore drilling
• will not lead us into socialism and communism

in a hurry, will come back and complete later [QUOTE] [B]Flag Desecration Constitutional Amendment[/B]

Summary: Vote to pass a joint resolution proposing a constitutional amendment that authorized Congress to ban physical desecration of the U.S. flag.

Obama's vote: NO

[B]Immigration Enforcement and Border Fence Amendment[/B]

Summary:

• Urges an expansion of the zero-tolerance prosecution policy for undocumented immigrants to all 20 border sectors.
• Calls for the completion of 700 miles of pedestrian fencing along the border between the United States and Mexico.
• Allows for the deployment of up to 6,000 National Guard members to the southern border of the United States.
• Encourages the identification of undocumented immigrants for deportation that are currently in the United States prison system.
• States that any spending level changes cannot increase the federal deficit during the 2008 to 2013 timeframe or the 2008 to 2018 timeframe.

Obama's vote: NO

[B]Denying Legal Status for Immigrants Convicted of Certain Crimes[/B]

Summary: Vote to pass an amendment that would prohibit undocumented immigrants convicted of aggravated felonies, domestic violence, stalking, violation of protection orders, crimes against children, or crimes relating to the illegal purchase or sale of firearms, from gaining legal status.

Obama's vote: NO

[B]Amendment on Certain Energy-Related Programs, Including the Development of Oil Shale and Offshore Natural Gas[/B]

Summary: Vote to adopt an amendment that permits the Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee to increase spending levels on certain energy-related programs, including the development of natural gas off the coast of Virginia and the development of oil shale resources on public lands.

Obama's Vote: NO

[B]Gulf of Mexico Energy Security Act of 2006[/B]

Summary: Vote to pass a bill that allows offshore oil and gas leasing in the 181 and 181 South areas within a year and plans to expand into the Eastern Planning, Central Planning and Western Planning areas at some future date.

Obama's Vote: NO

[B]Firearms Manufacturers Protection bill[/B]

Summary: Vote to pass a bill that provides liability protection for manufacturers, dealers or importers of firearms or ammunition products, as well as their trade associations, for harm caused by criminal or unlawful misuse.

Obama's vote: NO

[B]Declaring English the National Language[/B]

Summary: Vote to pass an amendment that declares English as the language of "sole legal authority" for the business of the federal government, and declares that no person has a right to require officials of the United States government to use a language other than English.

Obama's vote: NO

[B]USA PATRIOT and Terrorism Prevention Reauthorization[/B]

Summary: Vote to adopt a conference report that extends the authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) to conduct roving wiretaps and access certain business records through December 31, 2009, and makes the remaining 14 provisions of the Patriot Act permanent.

Obama's vote: YES[/QUOTE]

Re: Obama in Europe

^^Way to hit those talking points -- got any original thoughts?

Oh, and might I finally add... :roll:

Re: Obama in Europe

God I'm so tired of this whole discussion but I'd almost take a few to bash the crap out of most your points if it weren't for the fact that we clearly have completely different values in our lives. We'd probably be better off drinking a beer talking about hot women but definitely need to avoid the topic of politics at all time. I've seen too much in my lifetime to be eating crap like: [I]

• he will continue to fight terrorism and keep our country safe[/I]

Terrorism? I hate to break this you, but I think expanding political and military presence all over the planet to secure your own economical interests isn't exactly kosher either. You get what you give mate. Muslim fundamentalism is a problem, but it could have been avoided from growing to it's current proportions.

[I]- can you imagine obama as commander in chief? mccain is a true patriot, has military
experience, wont cut our military budget to hurt us[/I]

Ah great, there's no problem a big army can't solve. Get real, you need an army, but unless you're planning to invade the whole damn planet you definitely needn't more than you have now. Besides, that someone has a different view on leading your country doesn't mean he/she doesn't love it. By far the most ridiculous 'argument' in this list.

• he wont throw away our last 5 years in iraq, he will try to win that war

Get the fuck out while you still can. There's no winning there, and the list of reasons why is enough to write a while bloody research master thesis on. Mostly political and economical.

• is pro life

You mean he hates abortion and euthanasia? I'll be the one to decide wether I want to end my life if I'm in pain. Anyone forcing me to endure excruciating pain or suffering is not worth living him/herself. It's a form of abuse to do so IMO. As for abortion, it is not something to be taken lightly. However, I'd like to see the damage to a country's economy with the percentage of teen mothers the US has. It's not a solution, but should not be discarded on the basis of religious convicitions.

• is pro gun

Maybe there should be more shootings on schools in the US. We have practically none in Europe. Pro gunners just won't learn the lesson I guess...

• is pro sanctity of marriage

Religious stuff again. You live in a secular country, keep your faith indoors. The public space should be as neutral as possible to ensure that every religion, faith and lifestyle can interact in society.

• will keep bush tax cuts

Which as far as I know have predominantly favoured the richer people. Rethink those cuts, make them work for the man at the bottom as well.

• he's against socialized medicine

There's only a few things I want to be accessible to everyone no matter what: education and health care. They are the basis of a healthy population and workforce. There's no sense in making it unreachable for the common man, you'll be knawing at the pillars of a succesful economy.

• i'm a white successful male - voting obama will hurt me

How? Is he gonna hang you like white people used to do to the blacks? Is he gonna favour blacks in general so much that the white man will become the future Negro in the United States? This is a pretty prejudiced statement, borderine racist unless you can specify this argument, but I reckon you deserve a taste of what blacks have endured just for making this statement.

• will not lead us into socialism and communism

I'm sorry, socialism and communism? God, read a few history books and open your eyes man. McCarthy isn't in charge anymore, and please please please stop putting hard-edged labels on everything that might implicated empathy with a fellow human being.

Fuck, now I did take those minutes, and it wasn't a few. Now I'm mad.

Re: Obama in Europe

nice post yao. 8)

i can't even begin to argue with shosh about politics. it really isn't worth it for me.

Re: Obama in Europe

[QUOTE=Yao;628953]

• i'm a white successful male - voting obama will hurt me

How? Is he gonna hang you like white people used to do to the blacks? Is he gonna favour blacks in general so much that the white man will become the future Negro in the United States? This is a pretty prejudiced statement, borderine racist unless you can specify this argument, but I reckon you deserve a taste of what blacks have endured just for making this statement.[/QUOTE]

Most of those weren't even worth your time to respond to, Yao, but this one kinda stuck in my crawl, too. Shosh, you're a: (1) white (2) successful (3) male, and somehow that means that Obama is the kiss of death for you? First and foremost, I have no idea what your whiteness or maleness has to do with anything, unless you believe -- well, I'm not even sure [B]what [/B]you have to believe for your white maleness to be an issue in an Obama administration. It's puzzling.

I'm assuming the "successful" thing means you're concerned about your taxes going up. If you make in excess of $250,000/year or make the bulk of your income from capital gains, then you're probably right to think that your taxes will go up under Obama, because they will. Otherwise, they probably won't. Even if you are in a spot where you're likely to pay more taxes, though, taxes are one of many issues that you ought to consider. Yeah, yeah, yeah, vote your wallet, blah, blah, blah -- well, I did that for years and I can't say I'm happy with the outcome.

Why am I wasting time trying to make any sense? Wish I had the last few minutes back. Oh well, will post it anyway.