So now our government is talking about immigration reform. We can't even show that we can control the border - we might as well just knock down the crappy fence we have now and roll out the red carpet. Forget the people who want to enter legally into our country - we don't want you. We aren't dealing with an immigration problem, we are dealing with an exodus problem. Already there are areas of Mexico around the border where the towns are empty except for women and children. All of the men are in America illegally working and sending the money back to Mexico.

In Dallas, TX, the county hospital is paying millions upon millions of taxpayers money to cover the costs of medical care for illegal immigrants. There is no benefit to Americans in having undocumented workers in the country. Big corporations enjoy large profits based off of low wages paid to these workers all the while justifying it by saying 'They work in jobs that Americans don't want to work in.' I would believe that if every single American actually had the opportunity to choose their employment. I am sure there are some Americans out there who are unemployed who are wanting work but are losing out to illegal immigrants instead of having the opportunity that was promised to them because they live here in America. I know there are exceptions to the rule, I'm not saying everyone who is unemployed wants to work. We do have leeches on the welfare system who will never want to break away from the free check (that is another rant all together).

We Americans all pay for this in the long run. We are told that having low paid workers keeps prices down - I don't see it. Inflation is still skyrocketing in food and other necessities, not going down or staying flat. All who are benefiting are the corporate directors with their large bonuses which only get larger as the years pass.

We should not be thinking of reforming the immigration policy until we can control the influx of persons into our country illegally. Amnesty only promises that illegals can come over and there is no punishment for breaking the law. Allowing businesses a free ticket to pay these workers under the table, tax-free, is absurd. They don't help our economy - they send the money back to Mexico or wherever they are from (Central/South America).

This effects the value of our dollar - the national debt is growing like cancer and if approx. 20 million people aren't paying taxes (plus companies ducking out to avoid them as well... Halliburton) pretty soon all we will have is green paper that is only good for wiping our ass. I can remember when I started buying music in the electronica music genre, I was getting vinyl from the UK and the currency exchange was approx. $1.20 to every UK pound - now it's $2 for every pound. This is been in only the last 6 years!!! I can also remember when the dollar was worth more than the Euro, again only 6 years ago. Granted we can download from places like Beatport but that's beside the point in this argument.

At some point the American public needs to take back their country from the corporations. This country was founded on the ideal, 'for the people, by the people.' We have turned the corner and now live by the 'make the highest profit' ideal. They have bought their way into the government and we no longer have a voice. There are clauses in our constitution that allow us to take back our country it's just that so many of us are too afraid or too uneducated (or don't care to make a difference) to do anything about it.

We are losing our country on a daily basis and I hate to be pessimistic but if there is not a change in the way we do things, 'superpower' will be a distant memory in our vocabulary.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

why not take back our country from the government? Is it not the government who is to enforce laws? And if they don't do thier job...

Re: Immigration Reform!?

I know that someday I will be living in Canada.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[QUOTE]the national debt is growing like cancer [/QUOTE]Why don't you blame that on your cummander-in-mischief?

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Who?;482219]

In Dallas, TX, the county hospital is paying millions upon millions of taxpayers money to cover the costs of medical care for illegal immigrants. There is no benefit to Americans in having undocumented workers in the country. Big corporations enjoy large profits based off of low wages paid to these workers all the while justifying it by saying 'They work in jobs that Americans don't want to work in.' I would believe that if every single American actually had the opportunity to choose their employment. I am sure there are some Americans out there who are unemployed who are wanting work but are losing out to illegal immigrants instead of having the opportunity that was promised to them because they live here in America. I know there are exceptions to the rule, I'm not saying everyone who is unemployed wants to work. We do have leeches on the welfare system who will never want to break away from the free check (that is another rant all together).

We Americans all pay for this in the long run. We are told that having low paid workers keeps prices down - I don't see it. Inflation is still skyrocketing in food and other necessities, not going down or staying flat. All who are benefiting are the corporate directors with their large bonuses which only get larger as the years pass.

We should not be thinking of reforming the immigration policy until we can control the influx of persons into our country illegally. Amnesty only promises that illegals can come over and there is no punishment for breaking the law. Allowing businesses a free ticket to pay these workers under the table, tax-free, is absurd. They don't help our economy - they send the money back to Mexico or wherever they are from (Central/South America).

This effects the value of our dollar - the national debt is growing like cancer and if approx. 20 million people aren't paying taxes (plus companies ducking out to avoid them as well... Halliburton) pretty soon all we will have is green paper that is only good for wiping our ass. I can remember when I started buying music in the electronica music genre, I was getting vinyl from the UK and the currency exchange was approx. $1.20 to every UK pound - now it's $2 for every pound. This is been in only the last 6 years!!! I can also remember when the dollar was worth more than the Euro, again only 6 years ago. Granted we can download from places like Beatport but that's beside the point in this argument.

At some point the American public needs to take back their country from the corporations. This country was founded on the ideal, 'for the people, by the people.' We have turned the corner and now live by the 'make the highest profit' ideal. They have bought their way into the government and we no longer have a voice. There are clauses in our constitution that allow us to take back our country it's just that so many of us are too afraid or too uneducated (or don't care to make a difference) to do anything about it.

We are losing our country on a daily basis and I hate to be pessimistic but if there is not a change in the way we do things, 'superpower' will be a distant memory in our vocabulary.[/quote]

Inflation rockets because we have fiat money. We have nothing to back up our currency. The gold standard was left long ago. Of course the SPP should help alleviate some problems come the near future. What someone makes per capita isn't all that relevant - it's the buying power. If you look at graphs, the average pay went up almost 5 fold since the early 70's - from $3 to $15. However, buying power has remained somewhat stagnant, increasing only 24 cents over the past 30-35 years!

Illegal immigrants do a hell of a lot more than what Americans would do. They have a better value system and appreciate what resources they have here. Furthermore, you would be lying to yourself if you really think they don't help our economy. How many sick days do Americans call in for? Now how many do you think the illegal immigrants miss?

You cry that they aren't contributing by paying taxes. Why should they? They can't afford healthcare. They house large families together. They make close to no money and have to A) send most of the money back to families in Mexico or B) have to pool the money together just to be able to live. Furthermore, the only services that can be rendered are emergency visits. These people are more prone to illnesses than anybody else. They work long hours in the dead heat of summer or in the bitter colds of winter. They continue working despite a lacerated finger that could abscess due to bacterial infection. If Americans really wanted their jobs back, or whatever jobs they've lost, they'd stop smoking pot all day and stop playing counterstrike.

I guess I'm kind of lost because on one hand you're blaming the immigrants, and on the other you're blaming the corporations. Then you blame the American people while at the same time being empathetic towards them? IMO, the only people [I]to[/I] blame are ourselves for being too complacent and for acting as the noblemen while the illegals act as our serfs.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Look..... This whole immigration issue is so simple to understand.

It goes like this:

Democrats. Democrats want illegal immigration to continue unabated. Why? Because they want things in this country to change dramatically, and they think that by drawing in as many Mexicans as possible they can swing the voting majority into their favor... giving them control of both the executive and legislative branches.

Republicans. Republicans are torn between 2 extremes. Many people want the borders secured, and for the "illegal" immigration to end. They want immigrants to be able to come to the USA, but we want it done in an organized fashion which ensures safety and fairness. But the politicians are faced with the dilema of trying to please everybody. Most americans want the borders secured. But when you take any action which secures the borders, you alienate the latino community. So in the interest of garnering both the white and latino votes.... most republican politicians, Bush included, are trying to straddle the fence.

Frankly.... both sides are shameless.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

in my personal opinion i think we should close the borders once and for all we dont need this ex pats back i dont see the point of going north for a solution.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Ultimately if the Mexican government could fix their economy, then border crossings would diminish. When you consider that Mexico has access to oil, and 2 beautiful coastlines, there is no reason why they should be such an impoverished country.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Who?;482219]We Americans all pay for this in the long run. We are told that having low paid workers keeps prices down - I don't see it. Inflation is still skyrocketing in food and other necessities, not going down or staying flat. All who are benefiting are the corporate directors with their large bonuses which only get larger as the years pass.[/quote]

Take a look at economics 101 imo. Don't confuse nominal with real growth. Some controlled low level of inflation is "normal" for an economy - and significant deflation is [I]not[/I] a good thing! Yes, inflation makes nominal prices go up, but wages generally grow too. Productivity has also increased dramatically over time. If you were to factor out inflation and look at the real prices of many goods over time, you will see that their prices have in fact dropped dramatically. This is not true of all goods, of course...but I think it's a fallacy to imply that by and large our buying power has plummeted compared to where it used to be. It hasn't...as I recall, it's about where it was.

As for whether cheap labor benefits us - sure it does. It benefits you directly in the cheap stuff you can get. It also benefits the corporate directors. All of which is not to say that it is all ethically or politically appropriate and that the process should be left unchecked.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=subterFUSE;484195]Ultimately if the Mexican government could fix their economy, then border crossings would diminish. When you consider that Mexico has access to oil, and 2 beautiful coastlines, there is no reason why they should be such an impoverished country.[/quote]too much siesta me thinks...

Re: Immigration Reform!?

I am saying that the overall politics of our current administration have had an overall effect on all areas of our livelihood as Americans. The open border policy that seems to be in use at this time is not giving us protection in any way shape or form. There are tons of Americans who aren't working that would gladley work for minimum wage just to have a steady income again. But when corporations hire illegal immigrants to do the work instead because they can pay them less than the legal wage, they are responsible for promoting the decline of the American dream (that was why I included corporations in this rant).

And if immigrants are in our country, they should pay taxes - just like everyone else here needs to. If they are sending kids to our public schools, using our medicare, they should pay for it. All of us do. Because if they don't, then all the rest of us do pay for it with the higher medicare and schooling costs (insurance anyone?).

This is a cyclical problem - everything is connected. And the cycle begins and ends with the leadership of the country. That is my point.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Who?;484338]I am saying that the overall politics of our current administration have had an overall effect on all areas of our livelihood as Americans. The open border policy that seems to be in use at this time is not giving us protection in any way shape or form. There are tons of Americans who aren't working that would gladley work for minimum wage just to have a steady income again. But when corporations hire illegal immigrants to do the work instead because they can pay them less than the legal wage, they are responsible for promoting the decline of the American dream (that was why I included corporations in this rant).

And if immigrants are in our country, they should pay taxes - just like everyone else here needs to. If they are sending kids to our public schools, using our medicare, they should pay for it. All of us do. Because if they don't, then all the rest of us do pay for it with the higher medicare and schooling costs (insurance anyone?).

This is a cyclical problem - everything is connected. And the cycle begins and ends with the leadership of the country. That is my point.[/quote]

Woah dude, as Charles Wheelan, notable economist points out, the difference between us and socialist countries like France is that no matter what, we have jobs opening up everywhere. One of the main progressions economists have seen is that those who are purpordetly out of work, take up jobs in more hi-tech areas. Those Americans who say their jobs are being taken away, aren't necessarily looking for jobs elsewhere. Low level jobs don't require a multitude of specific skills; in fact they require minimal skills, which many Americans do have. It's that most refuse to take up the jobs that illegals do work at. Right here in Phoenix, we have American bums panhandling on the offramps of the freeways, yet somehow we have 3.9% unemployment in Arizona?

As for your second paragraph - I'm lost in how illegals can get medicare? They don't even qualify (remember, medicare is for those who are either elderly or have young, [I]legal[/I] kids). In fact, this situation is reversed. There are many illegals that do pay payroll taxes (because SS and Medicare taxes are deducted from [I]payroll[/I] and NOT from income tax) and actually never see the money that they put in.

I also don't buy into your notion of them in our public schools. Most of those kids will never see the light of college, but at least they'll get the chance to attemp to get to college. They'll still end up working the same crummy jobs that their parents work and if they were born in the states, they will pay the income tax and they will pay the state tax, etc...

I think the last paragraph is the only point we agree on.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

what do you mean a wetback is taking your jobs? thats just so stupid rofl... would you cut grass or wash dishes? (i know beenzncheez had to) dont be a retard, americans wouldn't do that shit. you know you wouldn't

they are however taking black people jobs if anything lol because blacks do almost the same thing... now wait a minute? blacks hate to work they are lazy!!

Re: Immigration Reform!?

So, question, do you think what happened to the 2 border patrol agents was a fair deal??

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Who?;484393]So, question, do you think what happened to the 2 border patrol agents was a fair deal??[/quote]

You'd have to fill me in on what happened.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Here's some reform!! We get your Mexicans etc, you get our Asians etc.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6566619.stm[/url]

That might deter some of the Mexicans crossing the border :lol:

Btw I'm not proud of what Australia does in this area.:(

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[QUOTE=DIDI;484501]Here's some reform!! We get your Mexicans etc, you get our Asians etc.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/6566619.stm[/url]

That might deter some of the Mexicans crossing the border :lol:

Btw I'm not proud of what Australia does in this area.:([/QUOTE]

You may not be proud of it, but I bet you're looking forward to some of those Asian restaurants getting turned in to decent Mexican restaurants. Something Australia could do with some more of :lol:

Re: Immigration Reform!?

I actually don't like mexican food, love asian!, particulary Thai and Vietnamese :D

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Erik Mitchell;484105]I know that someday I will be living in Canada.[/quote]

I hate to say it, but me too, I think.

Two of the guys who were arrested in the Fort Dix conspiracy came across the Mexican boarder...the government is playing it off and passing on disinformation to the media.

Also, I think what happened to the boarder patrol agents is atrocious!

Sometimes, I can't even think about this issue. Living in Southern California, I see a lot of immigrants, I can't say illegal because I don't actually ask them, but it is assumed. But there are just as many whites and blacks running around here without health insurance too. Basically, the health care system in this country needs some serious repair. I am not in favor of government run health care, but clearly, something has to be done about the skyrocketing cost of insurance.

Anyways, please excuse me, a n00b rambling on....

Re: Immigration Reform!?

i love how immigrants are being held 'above the law'. i'm all for immigration to this county, LEGAL immigration, and particularly when the immigrant brings value to the U.S, as in skills, abilities, and knowledge. but not This type of immigration....

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=88Mariner;487016]i love how immigrants are being held 'above the law'. i'm all for immigration to this county, LEGAL immigration, and particularly when the immigrant brings value to the U.S, as in skills, abilities, and knowledge. but not This type of immigration....[/quote]

Exactly. And most of the citizens of the USA agree with you.

But democrats want open borders, with unfettered immigration. Anyone who wants in, gets in immediately, and gets full citizenship. They want this because they want to tip the balance of voting power their direction, and will do anything to attain that shift. Rather than try to use reason to win over the current voters living the USA, they prefer to take the easy route.... and just try to increase their voter base with immigrants. So by giving amnesty to 12 million illegals, and then letting the flood gates remain open on the border, they believe they can get control of the country and push their social agenda.

The Republicans are torn between pleasing the current USA citizens by securing the border and stopping the chaos, and alienating the latino vote.

Both sides are shameless.... although I think the democrats are worse on this one. Trying to win elections by flooding the country with undocumented immigrants is beyond the pale. :roll:

Re: Immigration Reform!?

what happen to those border patrol agents was something they had comming theirselves for lying and trying to hidde the evidence in that case, not because the judge was defending an ilegal imigrant.

i live in el paso, and saw the news almost everyday on what happen in that case.

for those who dont know how that went:: two border patrol agents tried to stop an illegal imigrant who was trying to get across the river, carrying with himself, a bag full of weed, he sees the agents, and starts running to the mexican side, agents then start to shoot the guy, one of them gets him on the left cheek, agents then proceed to get rid of all evidence of the shooting and file a report that hides the facts. the imigrant heads to the hospital and somehow INS finds about his case, they negotiate with him to bring the 2 agents to justice, in return he will only get medical treatment for his wounds. case makes it to the courts, they find out the agents were hidding the evidence and were sentenced to 10 years in prision. case closed, the illegal imigrant didnt even get the medical treatment he was promised, due to pressure from organizations that didnt agree with the courts ruling.

so, dont really get how people say that what happen to those agents was something really atrocious. they shot a man that was carring no gun, in the back, and then they picked up all of the bullet shells so they wouldnt get in trouble, and finally filled up a report saying that nothing happen at all.

in regards to the imigration reform, people will always try and get into the US, not only from mexico but from other countries as well, even if they had a fence a 100 yards tall, people would still find the way of getting across. So no matter what all of us think, our goverment always takes its decisions based on the political outcome that it may have.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

If we had a wall, and enough people to patrol it, border crossings would slow to a crawl. You are correct that nothing will stop it completely, but to say that we can't do anything to stop the flood of illegals coming over is simply false. We can do a lot to stop it, if we would just stop dragging our feet about it.

But, like I said, nobody WANTS to stop it. Democrats want more voters to come in and vote for them so they can push their social agenda. Republicans don't want to alienate the latinos, because they know that there are 12 million illegals in the country now who could be voting soon if they get amnesty.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

I want to stop it really, our goverment should really manage their resources for this wetbacks on education, and better job oportunities, its sad i mean you guys see it as a huge problem but since mexico has a big problem called [B]social exclusion [/B]practically normal people don't give a shit about them. its quite sad.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

My favorite article on immigration: [url]http://www.lipmagazine.org/~timwise/realamurkans.html[/url]

Here's an excerpt addressing some of the points people have brought up in this thread.

[QUOTE] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]And yes, I know, these real Amurkans, however uninformed they may be about the culture they seek to "defend" from others, will insist they are only asking for adherence to the rule of law: one institution that they insist must be respected above all others. It's not that they dislike Mexicans. Goodness no! It's just that so many of them are coming illegally, and we are a law-abiding people who believe in playing by the rules. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Somewhere, the spirit of an Arapaho mother is laughing its ghostly ass off at that one, joined in her chorus of amusement by tens of millions more: Narragansett, Pequot, Lakota, you name it--all pissing themselves at the irony right about now. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]There is, as the saying has long held, honor among thieves, be they bank robbers, one supposes, or those who steal whole continents. Like the descendants of those who confiscated North America, and who now, without any sense of misgiving or just plain old fashioned embarrassment, think nothing of saying how [I]their[/I] ancestors came here legally, and that this is what makes them different, and one assumes, better, than those who come now from Mexico without adequate papers. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]Of course, those who insist their ancestors came to America legally ignore a crucial point: namely, if one was of European descent, there were no real limitations on immigrating to the U.S. blocking your way. In other words, all white folks could come legally, and, in keeping with the terms of the Naturalization Act of 1790, become citizens within one year of entry, making the need for illegal subterfuge remote. To say that one's great-great whatever followed the law, when in truth there was no law to follow (or to break) is more than a bit disingenuous. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]To be honest, the entire argument about the illegality of many migrants coming across the border is equally absurd. After all, forty percent of those in the country illegally didn't come that way, but rather, entered in full accordance with the nation's laws, and simply overstayed work or educational visas. Those in the anti-immigration movement who claim their only concern is for those breaking the law, pay almost no attention to this group, for reasons that can only be ones of convenience (in other words, the border is a more visible target for garnering publicity), or racism, since large numbers of visa violators are European or Canadian, and frankly, aren't seen as a threat to the so-called "American way of life," the way brown skinned, non-English speaking folks are. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]That racism motivates much of the backlash should be obvious. Certainly no one can truly believe that the Minutemen would be camped out on the Canadian border if the bulk of illegal immigration were coming from the North, or that undocumented migrants from Nova Scotia would be met with the kind of hostility being meted out to those from Oaxaca. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]If it were only illegality that bothered the anti crowd, they could just advocate for a streamlining of the process by which one can become a U.S. citizen in the first place. That, after all, would most certainly reduce the flow of "illegals" entering the country, by definition. But they will never advocate for such a thing, as they don't want Mexicans and others from the global south entering the U.S., whether by the letter of the law or not. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]The law isn't the point, and everyone knows it. After all, just because something is illegal, doesn't mean it should be. Likewise, just because something is given cover of law, doesn't automatically indicate its legitimacy. Laws reflect the wishes of any society's ruling elite, at a given time, since they are the ones who make them. To that extent, laws are neither just nor unjust, in and of themselves. The law has, over time, enshrined slavery, theft of indigenous land, segregation, male-only voting and property owning, internment of Japanese Americans, and--since we're on the subject--immigration restrictions based on race and nationality, predicated on the biases of the dominant group. That certain among those migrating to the United States break the law in order to do so is a matter of irrelevance, morally speaking, unless one starts with the absurd proposition that laws are by definition legitimate, simply because they exist. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2] [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=5][FONT=Georgia, Times New Roman, Times, serif][SIZE=4][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2][FONT=Arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=2]To complain about the illegality of many current migrants is to beg the ultimate question: namely, what makes someone illegal? Is it something essential to them as human beings, or does it have more to do with the decisions made by policy makers in the nation to which they migrate? To ask the question is to answer it, and yet to hear the nativists tell it, those who come to the U.S. illegally are by definition of bad character, precisely because of their decision to break the law: the law, in this case, of a country whose laws (until they get here) they are not bound to follow in the first place. [/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT][/SIZE][/FONT] [/QUOTE]

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Americans have all the power (military, wealth, and whatnot) in the world to end immigration in a few weeks or even days. They just don't do it because their own population wouldn't take those kinds of jobs. I'd like to see some whitetrash fag in a mcdonalds. :lol: Immigration brings benefits to any economy.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=apollo_1444;487812]Americans have all the power (military, wealth, and whatnot) in the world to end immigration in a few weeks or even days. They just don't do it because their own population wouldn't take those kinds of jobs. I'd like to see some whitetrash fag in a mcdonalds. :lol: Immigration brings benefits to any economy.[/quote]

There are plenty of 'white trash fags' working at mcdonalds. You really need to start bringing some substance to these threads as your acrimony is useless in debates.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=Localizer;487906]There are plenty of 'white trash fags' working at mcdonalds. You really need to start bringing some substance to these threads as your acrimony is useless in debates.[/quote] you got my point anyway mate thats all i'm gonna say about it.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

The bill that both the Congress & President wants to pass is not going to work. Here's some of the problems - many illegals are low skilled labor and can't afford the $5,000 penalty and additional fees. The head of the household has to go back to his country of origin and go through a process to come back to America. I agree with the point that this new immigration reform only benefits illegals that have good paying jobs or are wealthy.

Finally, I don't believe we can close the borders. We don't or actually won't enforce the borders hard enough to stop people from coming over through Mexico. We've been trying to close the borders for at least 30 years and have been unsuccessful. I don't see how this new bill will make any difference.

America is turning into Northern Mexico. North American Union here we come.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

False.

We have not been trying to secure the borders for 30 years. We have been looking the other way. Immigration has been a hot-potato issue for that time. Nobody wants to take hold of it long enough to do anything.

If the USA wanted to stop illegal crossings, we could do it in about 1 week. Send 50,000 National Guard troops to the border, and that's it. You'd have an almost complete stop in border crossings.

But this would upset the 12 million illegals already here in the USA. People who will eventually get to vote, if they aren't already. Since every major election in this country comes down to a few votes, neither side can afford to alienate anyone if it can be avoided.

So, the problem just gets passed on to the next congress. And to the next. And so on.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[QUOTE=subterFUSE;489935]False.

We have not been trying to secure the borders for 30 years. We have been looking the other way. Immigration has been a hot-potato issue for that time. Nobody wants to take hold of it long enough to do anything.

If the USA wanted to stop illegal crossings, we could do it in about 1 week. Send 50,000 National Guard troops to the border, and that's it. You'd have an almost complete stop in border crossings.

But this would upset the 12 million illegals already here in the USA. People who will eventually get to vote, if they aren't already. Since every major election in this country comes down to a few votes, neither side can afford to alienate anyone if it can be avoided.

So, the problem just gets passed on to the next congress. And to the next. And so on.[/QUOTE]

Let me put it this way. We haven't really tried to stop people from crossing the border from Mexico. We've had Border Security catching and releasing plenty of illegals for years. However, there isn't enough Border Security to stop the millions that came across. The border is too big and it would cost lots of money to build a big fence and put the military on the border. Not to mention that for awhile illegals were welcome for cheap labor now they're draining the economy. And most politicians are afraid to touch the issue of border control because they would be considered a racist.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

It goes beyond being called "racist."

This is a battle for the survival of the two party system in America. 12 million illegal immigrants added to the voter base would mean an end to the republican party. So we would only have a single party system.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Just a questions for all the closed minded.. who is going to drive your cabs and clean your houses if you kick all the inmigrants out??? re you going too?? face reality.. theres inmigrants because you need them.. and lets face another reality.. youre not american.. your blood line came from an inmigrant ship.. yes.. your blood is from europe.. so don`t forget your inmigrant roots!!

Re: Immigration Reform!?

perhaps one solution for this would be for someone... an individual, a group of individuals, or corporations, to purchase the entire segments of land across the southern border and, on thier own private property, build a very high brick wall.

if the government continues to refuse to protect its' borders, we are left at the hands of private citizens and businesses to carry this forward.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

If your administration had any balls, they'd do like we do here: every illegal immigrant is locked up and shipped back to the country of origin with the first plane possible.

If it weren't for those fags from the socialist party, we probably wouldn't even land, but just open the cargo bay doors over the Mediterranean Sea :twisted:

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=two-;489966]Just a questions for all the closed minded.. who is going to drive your cabs and clean your houses if you kick all the inmigrants out??? re you going too?? face reality.. theres inmigrants because you need them.. and lets face another reality.. youre not american.. your blood line came from an inmigrant ship.. yes.. your blood is from europe.. so don`t forget your inmigrant roots!![/quote]

We have immigrants because our economy is better than any other in the world.

If Mexico had a decent economy, then their citizens would prefer to stay home and work than leave their familes behind to earn a buck. The root of the whole problem is poor economic conditions outside of the USA. If that were fixed, border crossings would diminish.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[QUOTE=two-;489966]Just a questions for all the closed minded.. who is going to drive your cabs and clean your houses if you kick all the inmigrants out??? re you going too?? face reality.. theres inmigrants because you need them.. and lets face another reality.. youre not american.. your blood line came from an inmigrant ship.. yes.. your blood is from europe.. so don`t forget your inmigrant roots!![/QUOTE]

Actually, you're being closed minded if that's your only view. And what you say is what is called a half or partial truth. You don't see the rest of the story where immigrants drain the regular tax payers and citizens by overrunning the schools and hospitals. And not all illegals are good people like you think. A sizable percentage of prisons in some states are illegal aliens. The citizens of America have to build and house illegal prisoners. And another fact is that illegals don't always do jobs that Americans won't do. There are plenty of Americans who would do those jobs if they had the chance. Those employers like illegals since they don't have to pay them minimum wage and payroll taxes to the government.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

after all this argue, i guess Bill Gates Knows a shit about economics and his playing with toys saying legal/illegal inmigrants is a very important factor in the economy in most of the states at the south of USA. obviously im being sarcastic, im just bringing this because if he said this on an interview recently is because he have a little more knowledge about national/international economics than we do.... dont you all think?. so please im not saying that he is in fact chuck nurris to know everything about it, but it is an important opinion to consider

Re: Immigration Reform!?

Just because Bill Gates is rich doesn't mean he is an authority on economics.

He made it big with a technology company. He's a good business person, for sure. But does that make him an economist? Hardly.

Re: Immigration Reform!?

[quote=superdave;490194] There are plenty of Americans who would do those jobs if they had the chance. [/quote] If I had a company that cleans windows I would definitely hire an American too bad they don't like to apply for that kind of shit.