[ms] · Est. May 2002
One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
Iran is just testing the waters of the international scene. They want to see just how little resolve the world has in combating injustice. And they are taking away a valuable lesson: Ignore the world, and the UN.... they are a bunch of cowards who are too afraid to lift a finger to do anything.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
They are trying to provoke us. They cannot do anything against us directly because that would give us public approval to respond. So they are using the British sailors as a pawn, and daring them (us) to do something. Then we will continue to be portrayed as the aggressor and they have "plausable" deniablity.
It is up to us whether we choose to take the bait and spring their trap or not.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
sounds like the USA has already been at war over the last 18 months..
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wmce6KmFh6o&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Einfowars%2Ecom%2Farticles%2Fww3%2Firan%5Fwar%5Funderway%5Fus%5Fuk%5Ffunding%5Fright%5Fwing%5Fterrorists%5Ffor%5Fregime%5Fchange%2Ehtm[/url]
i'm standing by what I said I'm pretty sure either in april or the beginning of may the "Coalition" will enter Iran.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=88Mariner;468083]this is getting more comical by the day. have you read some of the letters those captured soldiers have 'written'?
anyways, Iran is saying that the UN is getting involved in what should only be a bilateral issue. this, just after they demand Britain to apologize for entering thier waters, which they clearly didn't.
what WILL they come up with next??[/quote]
Force written in my opinion...Iran is getting in over their heads (or so the Western powers would have us believe) I hate to think of what is going to happen next.
Perhaps all the "terrorists" will now flock to Iran as well and still try to fight as an opposing faction in Iraq. Seems to me that the west is playing into their hands.
Either way, it's a scary proposition.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=Miroslav;468150]Interestingly enough, I notice Bululu is very silent on this these days...[/quote]
Miroslav, what proves to me that the soldiers were on Iraqi waters ? and weren't actually in Iranian waters? the stupid GPS that both sides showed on TV :D , I am sure not going to belive the British government , not anymore since the invasion of Iraq and at the same time I don't trust Iranians that much , this is why I kept my mouth shut, comming back to the video footage , I see alot of people vomiting out out of disgust in their posts , Geneve war convention were violated , lets not forget Sadam's video footage when he was caught , and thats only one of 1000 times western governments broke the Geneve conventions, Abu ghraib and Guantanmo bay ring a bell :roll: .
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
iran actually indicated that those troops were NOT in Iranian water, but rather in Iraqi water. Which, before they changed thier story, also confirmed what the British Gov't was saying. Saying you don't believe either country in this is moot. And while there is a valid point in bringing up the Geneva Convention, that is only a secondary issue at this time.
I'm beginning to think that the biggest threat to the West is not radical Islam, but moderate muslims who continue to say "yes, but".
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
If theres any doubt on the postion check with the master of the indian ship, i'm sure he'd know whose waters he was in when he was boarded. Iran is just playing games, they'll have to give them a some kind of show trial then expel them. Sort of face saving.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
i don't think Iran is interested in saving a face it doesn't have. My suspicion is that, whether they know they fvcked up or not, they'll try to milk the price of gas as high as it can be. Nothing does this like creating tension.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
if they jail them in iran, i ran can count on losing a lot of infrastructure and citizens. say goodbye to the power plants, the main oil refinery, some airports, major higways, etc. and the UN should blockade everything going into and out of iran before anty attack, see if a noose around thier economy will shake em up. pathetic lot of people they are there.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
Iranian diplomat: No need to try Britons [URL]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070402/ap_on_re_mi_ea/british_seized_iran[/URL]
I'm guessing the Iranians are getting close to letting them go. I guess they'd planned this all along...they've had their fun and gotten their chance to try to make the West look bad and piss everyone off with a few threats, and now it's time to cut loose lest any real problems start to develop. All this of course coming from the same dude who last week was implying all sorts of legal threats.
Supposedly they said they'd also stop their ridiculous charade of broadcasting the UK troops reading made-up shit off of cue cards at gunpoint (the part you don't see on camera). Most importantly of all, Larijani made it clear that the Iranians are all business about this matter - no showmanship involved, no sir!
"Through sensationalism, you cannot solve the problem," he said.
:lol: what a fucking asshat.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6520571.stm[/url]
The next 48 hours are critical says bliar.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
well... they are gonna be released.
great.
england, here is the hankie to wipe the egg.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
Look at the video of the hostages. They are wearing tailored suits. Seems like Iran had this whole release ceremony planned out ahead of time.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[IMG]http://www.deskflags.com/signs/3301603.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
i could be well alone on this, but having seen some of those pictures...i can only think that the british military is made up of a bunch of pussies. I can't wait to read the interviews on what occured....
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=88Mariner;470295]i could be well alone on this, but having seen some of those pictures...i can only think that the british military is made up of a bunch of pussies. I can't wait to read the interviews on what occured....[/quote]
Do you really think those British soldiers actually had any choice in what they did and said in any of the pictures and videos you saw? I'm very curious to see what you will do differently next time you're caught by a bunch of armed Iranian soldiers who tell you what to do and threatening to shoot you in the nuts.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=subterFUSE;470236]Look at the video of the hostages. They are wearing tailored suits. Seems like Iran had this whole release ceremony planned out ahead of time.[/quote]
[B][I]the whole damn thing was planned out ahead of time.[/I][/B]
It's not hard for the Iranian military to observe the Brits where they usually patrol and devise a plan to capture a few of them and parade them around.
They get to reinforce the perception to the Iranians and other Middle Eastern Muslins that the evil allies are trying to move in on Iran and their buddies. They get to make the Brits look whimpy and incompetent. They get to engineer ridiculous "interviews" to portray the Brits as meek and apologetic and the Iranians as mighty and righteous. Then they get to flex their muscle to the world and look brave as they threaten the Brits with jail time. They get to piss off the UK and a bunch of other people at the UN in the process and make them all look like a bunch of sissies.
Then Ahamadinejad gets to step in and grant them clemency and look like the ultimate nice guy in the eyes of his people and the rest of the Muslims.
The Iranians and other Muslims get to bond together and feel warm and fuzzy that Father Ahmadinejad has got his finger on the incompetent allied "intruders" and that Iran is powerful, just, kind, great and all that other horseshit.
It's one big fucking CIRCUS. And every last bit of it is FAKE.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
^tell me what [I]isn't[/I] a circus in life? Political strangleholds are played by everyone, thought I'm pretty sure Ah shit his pants when he heard 2 of our carriers were practicing off his coast.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=Miroslav;470334]Do you really think those British soldiers actually had any choice in what they did and said in any of the pictures and videos you saw? I'm very curious to see what you will do differently next time you're caught by a bunch of armed Iranian soldiers who tell you what to do and threatening to shoot you in the nuts.[/quote]
well i think we both agree that all of the written and oral communications were staged. But, my thoughts stem from they way they carried themselves in those pictures. I"ve never been kidnapped, but I probably wouldn't be smiling at any point during my detainment. I guess force and coercion can produce any sort of result you want...
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
I found the propaganda interesting the way the Iranian president was greeting the hostages. It's almost as if he was thanking them for visiting his country. I also noticed the nice clothes the British sailors were wearing. A definite PR and photo opportunity not to make the Iranians look so bad.
I can't think of a real winner in this whole thing. Iran proved they aren't afraid to defend themselves, but probably had pressures internal and external to release the hostages. Britian looked weak at the beginning, but fortunately prevailed in getting their sailors back. It will be interesting to hear the sailors stories once they're free.
Not sure if I believe this, but possibly Iran isn't as irrational as we were led to believe. They did have the sense not to escalate things any further by keeping the hostages or killing them.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=superdave;470464]
Not sure if I believe this, but possibly Iran isn't as irrational as we were led to believe. They did have the sense not to escalate things any further by keeping the hostages or killing them.[/quote]
I frequently discuss these issues with my lab instructor who is straight from Iran and is a hippy with dreads. He consistently tells me a lot of the stuff we are watching is blown way out of proportion. It's all relative.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
to me, Iran has shown a high level of rationality in terms of self-preservation. Now Islam is a whole different story.
something interesting I caught on CNN a few minutes ago. a U.S. military official was being interviewed about what would happen if americans were captured and has the military prepared them for this possibility.
in essence, he responded that U.S. troops know that they have a right to defend themselves and that they do not have to ask permission to fire back or defend themselves if they were surrounded by enemy forces. I think it was a comment on the way british forces operate. This, i think, indicates how the british forces were captured.
hmm
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=superdave;470464]Not sure if I believe this, but possibly Iran isn't as irrational as we were led to believe. They did have the sense not to escalate things any further by keeping the hostages or killing them.[/quote]
Ahmadinejad isn't irrational, at least not in the way many people would think of the word (crazy, foolish, impulsive). And I suspect most of the people he puts in his government aren't, either. My guess is he always knew exactly where he was going with the whole hostage situation.
He's actually damn smart. Google bios on him, and you'll see stuff about how the guy reportedly scored 132nd among more than 400,000 entrance exam test takers for supposedly the best university in Iran. He's a PhD in some field of civil engineering and used to be a professor.
He's also adept and charismatic enough to play a pretty good power strategy game and get a bunch of people to follow him. And he's also ambitious, deceitful, and ruthless.
All of which, of course, makes him so dangerous.
The real danger is: not taking him seriously and writing him off as just another nutjob.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
he is smart like hitler was smart. both geniuses, both out to kill as many jews as possible before the world stops them. shit hitler took half of europe before anyone even slowed him down.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[QUOTE=Miroslav;470714]Ahmadinejad isn't irrational, at least not in the way many people would think of the word (crazy, foolish, impulsive). And I suspect most of the people he puts in his government aren't, either. My guess is he always knew exactly where he was going with the whole hostage situation.
He's actually damn smart. Google bios on him, and you'll see stuff about how the guy reportedly scored 132nd among more than 400,000 entrance exam test takers for supposedly the best university in Iran. He's a PhD in some field of civil engineering and used to be a professor.
He's also adept and charismatic enough to play a pretty good power strategy game and get a bunch of people to follow him. And he's also ambitious, deceitful, and ruthless.
All of which, of course, makes him so dangerous.
The real danger is: not taking him seriously and writing him off as just another nutjob.[/QUOTE]
The news coverage I see and hear is that Ahmadinejad is irrational and can't be allowed a nuclear weapon because he would use it on Israel or worse America. And I'm listening to both Republicans and Democrats.
I believe that invading Iraq made the situation much worse with Iran. Although, Iran should thank us for taking out Saddam & the Sunnis from power. I think we scared Iran to get a nuclear weapon quicker to protect themselves from America. From Iran's perspective, their next door neighbor country, Iraq, just got invaded for allegedly being involved in producing WMDs. Iran which has known ties to terrorism thought they might be the next target of America.
Regarding not taking Ahmadinejad seriously - people that say he's irrational point to comments about him destroying Israel which people do take seriously. In light of the recent events with the British sailors, possibly we should not take him seriously when he makes comments like that. Is this just rhetoric to fire up the hard liners or is it sincere and we should be worried?
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
if i spent my life commiting crime, which he did, and also spent the time calling for the death of your family, wouldnt you be concerned if you saw me buying a gun? lets call a spade a spade here, he was and still is a member of the revolutionary guard, he was personally involved in the embassy hostage taking. and has spent the last few years warning us that isreal will "be wiped off the map"..... yeah, we want him and his hard line islamist buddies with a weapon that can wipe a city out in .4 seconds.
[IMG]http://blatherreview.mu.nu/archives/mahmoud_ahmadinejad_hostages1b.jpg[/IMG]
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=thesightless;470821]if i spent my life commiting crime, which he did, and also spent the time calling for the death of your family, wouldnt you be concerned if you saw me buying a gun? lets call a spade a spade here, he was and still is a member of the revolutionary guard, he was personally involved in the embassy hostage taking. and has spent the last few years warning us that isreal will "be wiped off the map"..... yeah, we want him and his hard line islamist buddies with a weapon that can wipe a city out in .4 seconds.
[IMG]http://blatherreview.mu.nu/archives/mahmoud_ahmadinejad_hostages1b.jpg[/IMG][/quote]
heh, you mean the October Surprise.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=superdave;470813]The news coverage I see and hear is that Ahmadinejad is irrational and can't be allowed a nuclear weapon because he would use it on Israel or worse America. And I'm listening to both Republicans and Democrats.
I believe that invading Iraq made the situation much worse with Iran. Although, Iran should thank us for taking out Saddam & the Sunnis from power. I think we scared Iran to get a nuclear weapon quicker to protect themselves from America. From Iran's perspective, their next door neighbor country, Iraq, just got invaded for allegedly being involved in producing WMDs. Iran which has known ties to terrorism thought they might be the next target of America.
Regarding not taking Ahmadinejad seriously - people that say he's irrational point to comments about him destroying Israel which people do take seriously. In light of the recent events with the British sailors, possibly we should not take him seriously when he makes comments like that. Is this just rhetoric to fire up the hard liners or is it sincere and we should be worried?[/quote]
good question...I would still say:
Ahmadinejad is not irrational; he is power hungry and ruthless. Big difference, still very dangerous to let him get a nuclear weapon. The short answer to your last question, in my opinion, is: yes, a lot of what he says is rhetoric to fire up the hard liners...and yes, we should still be very worried.
I've wondered whether Ahmadinejad is really as religiously zealous and trigger happy with respect to Israel as he portrays himself to be, or whether he simply recognizes the benefits he receives from being [I]perceived[/I] that way right now; he gains popular support from Muslims, feeds hatred and division between the Muslims and non-Muslims (this only works in his favor), and scares the shit out of his enemies.
I'm guessing that a nuclear weapon in his hands would be a continuation (although very scaled up version) of this approach: a way to breed popular support, maintain national/cultural divisions he can exploit, and scare the shit out of everyone with the [I]threat[/I] of a nuclear the weapon - without necessarily ever using it. A nuke in his bag is a great way for him to simply cross the line that America and others draw and say, "so what are you going to do about it?" It totally shifts the balance of power in a way that is favorable for him.
My guess is that Ahmadinejad recognizes all of this very well...he knows the value of perceptions and he knows he doesn't need to fire the nuke to derive a lot of power from it. He also knows the value of pragmatism. Still, there are dozens really, really ugly scenarios for Israel and the West (not to mention his oil-rich neighbors) stemming from a highly ambitious Iran with a few nukes in hand. Ahmadinejad doesn't need to fly off the handle and fire a nuke to be very dangerous; it's enough if he just has one.
So we should take him very seriously. Don't be fooled by his soft-handed approach to the UK troop situation. It served him well to let them go; he would have slit their throats if it had served him better. That's rationality for you.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
big shocker: Iran bound, threatened captives [URL]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070406/ap_on_re_eu/iran_britain[/URL]
I hope this was the kind of publicity that Ahmadinejad was hoping to achieve within the international community :)
Iran of course denies it all and claims the whole news conference was just a fabricated publicity stunt. :lol: too cute
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
yeah, just reading the transcript of the interviews right now. very interesting stuff, but most importantly, they said that Iran entered Iraqi waters to capture them.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=Bululu;468447]Miroslav, what proves to me that the soldiers were on Iraqi waters ? and weren't actually in Iranian waters? the stupid GPS that both sides showed on TV :D , I am sure not going to belive the British government , not anymore since the invasion of Iraq and at the same time I don't trust Iranians that much , this is why I kept my mouth shut, comming back to the video footage , I see alot of people vomiting out out of disgust in their posts , Geneve war convention were violated , lets not forget Sadam's video footage when he was caught , and thats only one of 1000 times western governments broke the Geneve conventions, Abu ghraib and Guantanmo bay ring a bell :roll: .[/quote]
Finally got around to reading this, missed your response earlier. Yes, I fully admit that you are right on the American sins committed at Abu Ghraib and other places. But you have to admit after all of this...those Iranian officials are some weasely assholes, too! ;)
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
Yep. Same with the Iraqi officials under Saddam.
Remember the infamous intelligence minister? "There are no Americans in Baghdad! Never!!!" :lol:
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
Geneva Convention is not being violated at Gitmo. Enemy combatants who violate the rules of war do not get Geneva protections.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
interesting that the UK allwed the prisoners to do a tell all of what actually happened.
international shitstorm here we go.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
I was going to say this earlier...... but had I been captured, I never would have agreed to the confessions as they did.
Bottom line..... I know that Iran had no right to capture those sailors, and they certainly could not afford to kill them. So whatever they threatened me with, I would have just spat in their faces. Fuck them! They couldn't do shit, because if they did.... they would get bombed into the stone age. I know this to be true, and would never have given them the satisfaction of confessions under duress. Of course, nobody is going to press this issue, because of fucking dipshit political correctness. But it's the goddamned truth. Soldiers are trained how to deal with hostage situations. And I'm not a soldier. And I know that they couldn't do shit to me in that situation without dooming their country. Plain and simple. In fact, I'd almost wish they would do somthing, just to give us an excuse to exterminate the lot of them.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=subterFUSE;471362]I was going to say this earlier...... but had I been captured, I never would have agreed to the confessions as they did.
Bottom line..... I know that Iran had no right to capture those sailors, and they certainly could not afford to kill them. So whatever they threatened me with, I would have just spat in their faces. Fuck them! They couldn't do shit, because if they did.... they would get bombed into the stone age. I know this to be true, and would never have given them the satisfaction of confessions under duress. Of course, nobody is going to press this issue, because of fucking dipshit political correctness. But it's the goddamned truth. Soldiers are trained how to deal with hostage situations. And I'm not a soldier. And I know that they couldn't do shit to me in that situation without dooming their country. Plain and simple. In fact, I'd almost wish they would do somthing, just to give us an excuse to exterminate the lot of them.[/quote]
Easy there...those are awfully brave words...yet you say that you've never been in any kind of a situation like that where you had to fear for your safety? Don't be so damn cocky.
Keep in mind that while your captors may face future retaliation for whatever they do to you, that's not going to help you right then, when they are interrogating you. And keep in mind that you wouldn't know SHIT. You don't see the news, you maybe don't know what they did with your buddies, you don't know if you'll be spending one week there or one year...and you don't know the limits of these specific people who hold your life in their hands. Will they really spare you from serious discomfort? Just how far would they go? Are they rational?
You'd have no idea where they'll really stop and how and when it will all really end. You really think you'd have the luxury to sit there and say "hey, I know! you guys can't hurt me, because you'll get in trouble if you do!" ...please.
And let's just say hypothetically that it came down to abuse or physical or psychological torture. You really think you'd be such a defiant superman? Bull. shit. You wouldn't spit in their faces. You'd fear for your life and break under the pain, just like me and 99% of humanity.
It's easy for you to sit there surrounded by your comfortable civilian life and talk a big game...and trivialize the way others have reacted in those kinds of situations. Before you pass judgement on them, go try it out yourself.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
i love how iran is expecting goodwill now... god, the towel heads really are clueless...
britians goodwill statement should be this "the goodwill you received is the lack of major bombing runs that did not occur, fuck you. thank you."
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=thesightless;471517]i love how iran is expecting goodwill now... god, the towel heads really are clueless...
britians goodwill statement should be this "the goodwill you received is the lack of major bombing runs that did not occur, fuck you. thank you."[/quote]
riiiiight! i wonder if any iranin military were found crossin into UK what would happen. just cuz fuckin british are the good and and we the iranins are the bad guys, we should automatily be guilty. the released the british troops. they were treated with respcet. as far as im concerned they sould be happy there werent in iraq. free vacaction!
iran should ask for some goodwill after being politically and economicly exploited for 100s of years by UK! but shit u dont read that in ur fuckin text books do u!
iran has the right to nuclear power. u can go to hell if u think otherwise. we are no different that any other country who has it.
evey action taken by iran is to reaction to all the fuckedup shit that u.s and uk have done to them. lest not forget the we were once a democracy and uk overthrown that goverment only for OIL. 90% of worlds oil resevers are in the midle east. us and uk gov are drooling like dogs over it. and they are willing to create any situation to get their hands on it. yes ladies and gentellmen its not about how big ur dick is (military) its about how big ur balls are.
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=mazi;471620]riiiiight! [LEFT]i wonder if any iranin military were found crossin into UK what would happen. just cuz fuckin british are the good and and we the iranins are the bad guys, we should automatily be guilty.[/LEFT] the released the british troops. they were treated with respcet. as far as im concerned they sould be happy there werent in iraq. free vacaction!
iran should ask for some goodwill after being politically and economicly exploited for 100s of years by UK! but shit u dont read that in ur fuckin text books do u!
iran has the right to nuclear power. u can go to hell if u think otherwise. we are no different that any other country who has it.
evey action taken by iran is to reaction to all the fuckedup shit that u.s and uk have done to them. lest not forget the we were once a democracy and uk overthrown that goverment only for OIL. 90% of worlds oil resevers are in the midle east. us and uk gov are drooling like dogs over it. and they are willing to create any situation to get their hands on it. yes ladies and gentellmen its not about how big ur dick is (military) its about how big ur balls are.[/quote]
I respect your right to your opinion, and I acknowledge that the US and UK have more than their share of things they've done wrong.
But I worry that perhaps you're drinking the kool-aid just a bit too much over there... :Wacko:
So ok, let's take it as given that the UK and the US are heavily biased, and that you can't take what you hear from them at face value. You honestly think that you can trust what Ahmadinejad tells you? And you don't think that there is any possibility that the whole "capture" and "confession" of the UK troops wasn't just a huge propaganda show orchestrated by your government?
come on now...
Re: Iran captures British Forces at Gunpoint
[quote=superdave;470813]The news coverage I see and hear is that Ahmadinejad is irrational and can't be allowed a nuclear weapon because he would use it on Israel or worse America. And I'm listening to both Republicans and Democrats. [/quote]
So are you saying killing Americans is worse than killing Israels