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Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

46 durable postsStarted 2007-01-10Latest 2007-01-11
#36881Post 1 of 46

[QUOTE][B]Obama's White House bid may get help from Springfield[/B] ASSOCIATED PRESS 01/10/2007 SPRINGFIELD, Ill. (AP) — A new Illinois General Assembly was sworn in today with a long list of issues to tackle over the next two years.

...

But House Speaker Michael Madigan, re-elected to his post Wednesday, wants to do something else, too: introduce legislation to moved next year's Illinois Democratic primary to Feb. 5, to help boost the presidential prospects of Sen. Barack Obama, if he decides to seek the party's nomination.

Madigan said that by the time the state's primary rolls around in March, the presidential nomination is largely decided by Iowa and New Hampshire.[/QUOTE]

[url]http://www.stltoday.com/stltoday/news/stories.nsf/illinoisstatenews/story/FD663D124D91DF968625725F006E36A8?OpenDocument[/url]

I guess if this goes through, Iowa and New Hampshire just do theirs earlier, too, right? Frankly, it has always irritated me that these two small states, neither of which even have major metropolitan area, carry such pull come election time.

#784037Post 2 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

you should have to pass a test to vote in this country. i am sorry, but anyone who watched MTV or the like shouldnt be allowed to vote when you are listening to john stewart for your political news.

#784042Post 3 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;431725]you should have to pass a test to vote in this country. i am sorry, but anyone who watched MTV or the like shouldnt be allowed to vote when you are listening to john stewart for your political news.[/QUOTE]

Is this in the right thread? I'm missing the connection...

#784045Post 4 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

that so many factors, from a state congress to an asshat on TV, alter and affect our elections through many filtered and false pretenses, with out ppl knowing, is what bugs me.

i.e. 2008, you shouldnt be able to vote unless you, in writing, know that this action was done to garner more democratic favor.

#784049Post 5 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;431733]that so many factors, from a state congress to an asshat on TV, alter and affect our elections through many filtered and false pretenses, with out ppl knowing, is what bugs me.

i.e. 2008, you shouldnt be able to vote unless you, in writing, know that this action was done to garner more democratic favor.[/QUOTE]

I don't know that it was done to garner democratic favor as much as to garner more favor for Obama specifically over other democratic candidates. But he's an Illinois guy and he should be expected to easily take Illinois anyway, so I'm not sure that it would carry a lot of weight regardless. More just a way for Illinois to make itself feel more important.

#784060Post 6 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

Silly positioning.

#784093Post 7 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[quote=Lorn;431752]Silly positioning.[/quote]

that exactly it, these elections are so disgusting when you think that this country was founded on the principle of "fair share at the expense of none" with regards to governing. shit, we had about 20 parties at one point. but these two groups continue, through media, and moves like this, alienate everyone else. but people are too dumb to notice, and never see the other guys, most of whom are a lot more based in reality (not the sicko and BS parties like pro drug use and stupid shit) and could co-exist both internally and internationally so much better than our last two options:john kerry or GW2....think about that for aminute..................john kerry or GW2, the two best options to rule and relate for us?......out of THREE HUNDRED MILLION people here legally......... and its our fault too. no one ever looks into things deeper...kerry bush......but they hurt it a lot....so in the end, ill leave it with this...mccain or clinton..whose side are you on?................................................................................

#784095Post 8 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

now thats how you rant.makes you really wanna look forward to the next 4 years

#784098Post 9 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[IMG]http://images.southparkstudios.com/media/images/808/808_img_10.jpg[/IMG]

vs.

[IMG]http://www.looptvandfilm.com/blog/douche.jpg[/IMG]

#784100Post 10 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

The first step to getting away from our strict adherence to a two-party system is doing away with the electoral college and going with popular vote in the national election. That's the root of the problem, IMO.

#787076Post 11 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

That won't solve the problem of a 2 party system. I think It would just reduce the 2 parties down to 1. Without the electoral college, a disproportionate level of influence would be based in heavy population centers, which by and large vote only one way.

#787082Post 12 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=subterFUSE;432078]Without the electoral college, a disproportionate level of influence would be based in heavy population centers[/QUOTE]

I'm 100% OK with this, and not because they tend to vote the way I've voted lately. It makes imminent sense that the places with the most influence be the places where the bulk of the population are located. That's where most things that have an impact on the country happen anyway.

With the electoral college in place, people in NY, LA, DC, Chicago, Dallas, etc. are cut out of the political process altogether because there is no incentive to campaign there. Meanwhile, people that have chosen to live awash in corn and grains decide the presidency. It's madness.

We now have the technology to quickly tabulate the popular vote, which we did not at the time the electoral college was first implemented. There is no longer any need for it, and it's time to put it to bed.

#787123Post 13 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=subterFUSE;432078]That won't solve the problem of a 2 party system. I think It would just reduce the 2 parties down to 1. Without the electoral college, a disproportionate level of influence would be based in heavy population centers, which by and large vote only one way.[/QUOTE] So you're essentially arguing that the electoral system is a way to dilute the principle of one man one vote just to please your personal interests...nice :roll:

The bicameral nature of Congress was created specifically in regards to your concern.

#787129Post 14 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

the electoral college is necessary. I'd rather keep the republic, thanks.

#787131Post 15 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

Why is it necessary? What's wrong with a straight up one man one vote election system?

#787133Post 16 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=88Mariner;432141]the electoral college is necessary. I'd rather keep the republic, thanks.[/QUOTE]

Why? What purpose does it serve?

#787136Post 17 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

a more equal rePRESENTATION based on region. trust me, you in st louis most definetly do not want NY and Boston dictating what happens to you b/c we have a higher population density here.

#787137Post 18 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

The Electoral College was created for two reasons. The first purpose was to create a buffer between population and the selection of a President. (See Federalist No. 68) The second as part of the structure of the government that gave extra power to the smaller states. If you want to change the system, good luck passing the Amendment. You'd have a hard time convincing those small states.

#787139Post 19 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

^ that's not supposed to be a smiley: it is supposed to be a 68. whoops

#787140Post 20 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;432148]a more equal rePRESENTATION based on region. trust me, you in st louis most definetly do not want NY and Boston dictating what happens to you b/c we have a higher population density here.[/QUOTE]

I don't want NYers telling me what to do in my day to day life, that's exactly right. The electoral college serves one single, solitary purpose, though, and that is to elect the president. It makes complete sense to me that everyone get one vote, and the person with the most votes wins, period, and if that means that the people of NY or Boston have a disproportionate impact on who is elected president, than so be it.

#787144Post 21 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

But why do the smaller states deserve extra power in the selection of a president? I thought we were a democracy.

#787146Post 22 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

you maybe... but everyone else.... not a chance.

#787149Post 23 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

we're a republic! (are you kidding me?)

#787152Post 24 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[quote=rubyraks;432156]But why do the smaller states deserve extra power in the selection of a president? I thought we were a democracy.[/quote]

because of differening cultures, values, economies, etc...

if the coastal states had all the power, and iowa/missouri/montana had minimal, thier governmental funding would be done for. farming would suffer, infrastructure funding, whats happens to NOLA when noone cares about a small state?

#787154Post 25 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;432148]a more equal rePRESENTATION based on region. trust me, you in st louis most definetly do not want NY and Boston dictating what happens to you b/c we have a higher population density here.[/QUOTE]

might I also add, we here in Missouri are a swing state and have voted with the eventual president in virtually every modern election. Do you want a bunch of backwater hicks from flyover country deciding who runs the country for you in NY? Right now, we kinda do.

#787159Post 26 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

yes, i firmly stand for the fact that missouri has an equal say in regards to NY. the minority shouldnt be shat on becuase we have more legalized south american immigrants than you.

#787160Post 27 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;432164]because of differening cultures, values, economies, etc...

if the coastal states had all the power, and iowa/missouri/montana had minimal, thier governmental funding would be done for. farming would suffer, infrastructure funding, whats happens to NOLA when noone cares about a small state?[/QUOTE] Once again, this is exactly why the congress was created in the bicameral manner that it was.

But following your argument, why do NYers have to have our policies driven by a President that is elected in a manner where the smaller states have more weight? A perfect example of the lunacy is how the antiterrorist funding has played out...absolutely pathetic that smaller states with more political power get more money even though they are far from threatened by terrorism! :evil:

#787163Post 28 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

that is a perfectly valid point that has more to do with asinine government, not representation. its a stupid senator from montana who sees NY's funding and says "hey, montana is getting is screwed" when in fact, it isnt. and he fights for it, and ends up screwing NY.

#787164Post 29 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[QUOTE=thesightless;432171]yes, i firmly stand for the fact that missouri has an equal say in regards to NY. the minority shouldnt be shat on becuase we have more legalized south american immigrants than you.[/QUOTE] What part of congress do you not understand, two houses one representing population the other states and by coming together they theoretically should come to fair solutions.

and yet again, if it worked out fairly I'd have no problem, fact is smaller states have more say than NY...it's been the votes of those states that have controlled congress and the presidency for quite some time now. Stop playing the poor little monority card...

#787168Post 30 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

there is 2 discussions here and im mistakenly combining them. i wasnt referring to the houses there, but the electoral college.

#787172Post 31 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

same argument applies, the smaller states keep playing the minority card while they actually hold all the cards...

#787174Post 32 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

^ that's a problem with funding, i agree that it's a problem, but not with the electoral college. the problem is that we're paying the federal government to redistribute taxes. we should be paying our own states, imo.

#787175Post 33 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[quote=88Mariner;432189]^ that's a problem with funding, i agree that it's a problem, but not with the electoral college. the problem is that we're paying the federal government to redistribute taxes. we should be paying our own states, imo.[/quote]

but there you instantly face the problem of NY having all the rich ppl here, and montana having none.

#787176Post 34 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

tyranny of the majority? Anyone? Bueller?

#787178Post 35 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

[quote=thesightless;432190]but there you instantly face the problem of NY having all the rich ppl here, and montana having none.[/quote]

take an equal share from everyon's taxes? i don't see the problem? the threat of terrorist attack versus population equals out. montana not only has way fewer people, but it's probably the last five likely states to be targetted. The inverse applies....

#787182Post 36 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

im dizzy. and lost. too many ppl here talking different things.

#787185Post 37 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

my head hurts...

#787296Post 38 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

Here's an explanation for the EC:

[QUOTE]After the 2000 election, most Democrats, and many others, [URL="http://theelectoralcollegesucks.com/"][COLOR=#99ccff]jumped all over[/COLOR][/URL] the "anachronistic" Electoral College, decrying it as a vestige of the past that needs reform or elimination. Why not just have a national vote for President? After all states don't mean all that much any more. Others asked "why winner-takes-all in each state?" Let's divvy it up [URL="http://www.bushcountry.org/news/oct_news_pages/g_102803_aten_2000_presidential_election_amendment_electoral_college.htm"][COLOR=#99ccff]by Congressional seat[/COLOR][/URL], [URL="http://www.homestead.com/northerncityjournal/files/vol01_45.html"][COLOR=#99ccff]they suggested[/COLOR][/URL] (Maine and Nebraska do just this (although it didn't matter in 2000)). Or perhaps [URL="http://www.ballot-access.org/2000/apportion.html"][COLOR=#99ccff]apportion the electoral vote[/COLOR][/URL] to the percentage each candidate won in the state?

I like none of these -- of all the arrangements, the electoral college still seems best. While it has the obvious (and recently demonstrated) "defect" of deciding close elections differently than the popular vote, this defect is intentional, and serves a purpose.

The Framer's reasons for an Electoral College were several. In order to accomodate the small-state/big-state compromise that led to the 2-vote-per-state Senate, they needed a method to allow small states slightly greater weight in selecting a President. There was great fear that, in a strict popular vote election, the urban states would decide all contests, and no candidate would even consider the issues of the smaller and rural states. Yet they wanted the election conducted in the States, not in Congress. The EC solved this, providing a tie-breaker in close elections where the candidate taking the most states (of any size) has an advantage (the two "senate seat" votes). This is precisely what happened in 2000.

Another reason is what we would today call a "firewall." Even in 1787, state politics were dicey enough that no one in, say, Virginia, wanted to absolutely rely on vote-counting in, say, New Jersey. After all, Eldridge Gerry (inventor of the "gerrymander") was a delegate to the Constitutional Convention. In more recent years, vote-counting in Chicago and St. Louis has been quite suspect. In a close election for President, there would be great temptation for local officials to pad the vote if the election was strictly by popular vote. Even with the EC it happens (e.g. 1960 Chicago), but the damage cannot extend past the given state's electors. Note that much of the controversy in Florida in 2000 involved local vote counting practices, state election official's behavior, and the Florida Supreme Court's wholesale rewriting of election law. Which brings up the next point...

A third (and probably more modern) reason is that recounts in a close election are also limited to the state or states in question. Consider the mess in Florida. Then consider the mess of a nationwide recount, with 50 state Supreme Courts, 50 sets of state election officials, and tens of thousands of local election boards. Some of whom are going to cheat to get their man over. There is no natural closure in a close election in this kind of system. We'd still be at it.

Lastly, there is the matter of needing a majority. In the electoral vote system, it is quite possible to have a majority of electoral votes without a majority of popular votes -- the last President to be elected with a popular vote majority was George Bush the Elder. Clinton, Carter, Nixon (1968) and Kennedy all were elected with less than 50% of the popular vote. But the EC all gave them a majority as the splinter party votes were eliminated at the state level. Of third-party candidates in recent history, only George Wallace in 1968 won any states. In a direct vote system, the requirement for a majority would be necessarily abolished. This is perhaps acceptable, but could lead to Presidents elected with over 60% opposition.

Now, what about the "fairer" Congressional-district apportionment, or straight state-wide vote apportionment, rather than winner-take all? The first will be a non-starter until there is no such thing as a Gerrymander. It is easy to "fix" the partisan outcome in a congressional district by careful attention to district line drawing. Wonderously odd results can be manufactured. In 1988, the two major parties polled even for Congress, but the Democrats gained a large majority of seats due to gerrymandering. The second option allows significant third-party vote totals, or nearly any such vote totals in a close election, to throw the whole thing into the House of Representatives. Nader would have received enough electoral votes in 2000 in this system to throw the election into the House (and therefore to Bush). Historically, this has been a bad thing, so I see no reason to make it more likely.

One last note, of the suggested alternate choices, only a popular vote method elects Gore in 2000. No matter how you apportion electoral votes (winner-takes-all, congressional district or statewise proportional) Bush wins (if only in the House), and in the congressional district system, Bush wins handily.[SIZE=1]Posted by Kevin Murphy at December 11, 2003 12:08 AM [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

#787312Post 39 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

^^Interesting article. I am unpersuaded.

#787315Post 40 of 46

Re: Illinois State Lawmakers Look to Help Obama

Well I still disagree with his very biased argument. Seriously, do you ever quote anyone else or anyone other than a hard right pundit? Not trying to be an ass, I'd just rather read more diverse opinions than just one.

I particularly found this line alone pathetic:
[QUOTE]In 1988, the two major parties polled even for Congress, but the Democrats gained a large majority of seats due to gerrymandering. [/QUOTE] Really, did he have to look back towards 1988 to make this point, rather than looking at more recent elections where exactly the opposite was true?

I hear his point and I'm not saying it's baseless, but I still do believe in more democratic elections where one man one vote actually applies. The electoral system further strengthens the two-party system as is and that bothers me as well. Interesting how he makes no mention whatsoever of that fact.

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