[url]http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15766750/[/url]

so is Dutch tolerance out the window?

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

tolerance no, but they've definitely increased their common sense. we're banning them too, and it can't come soon enough. you come here, you'd better not wall yourself off from society, cause its just not healthy.

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its sad on all fronts. you wear it, it creates a mental divide with the rest , and it slod shows that you value religious law above your country, which isnt what most of the world is about.

but on the other ahnd, its even more pathetic humanity has allowed itself to become so disallusioned as to what life and love are all about....to the point where , in the last 5 years, we have terrorists using a false front, we have countries bannig garb, we have ppl suing to keep bibles awya from US courts, a country whose bill of rights parallells the ten commandements, you have someone in italy suing the roman catholic churhc to prove that thier theory is wrong........

no win situaiton.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[QUOTE=thesightless;409336]we have ppl suing to keep bibles awya from US courts, a country whose bill of rights parallells the ten commandements[/QUOTE] This is a common misconception, because if you actually look at the ten commandments only 3 of them are actually laws, don't steal, don't murder and don't bear false witness and none of them are anywhere close to being in the bill of rights. :roll:

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=rubyraks;409344]This is a common misconception, because if you actually look at the ten commandments only 3 of them are actually laws, don't steal, don't murder and don't bear false witness and none of them are anywhere close to being in the bill of rights. :roll:[/quote]

thats a whooooooole different thread right there, this is gonna go way off topic if we start discussing this ;)

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

in principle! no duh they arent word for word. separation of church/state was a major factor to the founding of this joint.

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good for the dutch. lets wait for the rights and terrorist plots.

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aye, I agree with the Dutch on this. Good move, imo. If there's resistance, it will truly show how inept the muslim population can be.

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Whether just or unjust, it would be nice if Muslims generally recognized that these kinds of developments are unfortunately going to become commonplace thanks to the unfettered reign of their religions militant freaks.

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Not that I like seeing women wearing them but talk about democracy , showing your tits and exposing bitches on windows and selling drugs is allowed and totally legal because it is freedom , but when you have your own choice to cover yourself or do what ever you want it is against the law :roll: . Way to go European democracy and whats frightining is that everyone see it as very normal and that it is the way to go.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Was just ging t post on this: [url]http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13509-1823334,00.html[/url]

I'm all for it though, since it's somehow one of the most visible signs og non-integration in our society - I don't have a problem with women wearing the Hijab (normal headscarf), but we're talking abut something that almost completely covers the face. Let's face it: it's not written in the Qur'an that a woman should wear thatin the first place...it's a rule that has been derived from it and a very striking utterance of male dominance within Islam.

And no matter which way you look at it, it's a religious prescription solely aimed at women with a rather negative incentive: women should cover themselves because showing 'flesh' is dishonourable and unclean. Nothing more, nothing less, and that makes it a repressive measure to me which is contradictory to our system in which we grant men and women equal rights. They didn't ban it in Jordania for nothing, and of it can be done there, it can be done here. [COLOR="Orange"] I personally think the Burqa is one of the most degrading religious signs one can find on this planet. It dehumanises the bearer.[/COLOR]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Yes Quraan says , that the woman should cover her hair, body , but the face hands feet are not an oblegation to be covered.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=Bululu;409480]Not that I like seeing women wearing them but talk about democracy , showing your tits and exposing bitches on windows and selling drugs is allowed and totally legal because it is freedom , but when you have your own choice to cover yourself or do what ever you want it is against the law :roll: . Way to go European democracy and whats frightining is that everyone see it as very normal and that it is the way to go.[/quote]

individual freedoms only go so far...you don't get to do things that infringe on the rights of others. if i walked around in a ski mask, but said it was religious and therefore i had a right to do it, you'd think i was nuts...and rightly so. same principle applies with the burqua. people need to be able to identify others, for safety and peace of mind. wearing a garmet that covers one's entire body essentially makes them unidentifiable, which is not acceptable.

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^^^^^^^^ If I follow your logic , than we will oblige everyone to walk naked even in the Candian cold for safety and peace of mind ( you never know I might be hiding a weapon under my beaufitul pants) I would understand if you would not allow a woman covering here face to travel or work , but to ban it under the name of democracy and law , come on , someone who legaly injects Heroine is more dangerous to me than a woman running away when ever she sees men. PS:again I dont want everyone jumping on me and saying that I am defending this Burqaa because I hate it.

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[quote=Bululu;409585]^^^^^^^^ If I follow your logic , than we will oblige everyone to walk naked even in the Candian cold for safety and peace of mind ( you never know I might be hiding a weapon under my beaufitul pants) I would understand if you would not allow a woman covering here face to travel or work , but to ban it under the name of democracy and law , come on , someone who legaly injects Heroine is more dangerous to me than a woman running away when ever she sees men. PS:again I dont want everyone jumping on me and saying that I am defending this Burqaa because I hate it.[/quote]

no, you don't follow my logic at all, sorry to say. i'm saying you don't have a right to hide your identity in public...really not that tough a concept.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=day_for_night;409593]no, you don't follow my logic at all, sorry to say. i'm saying you don't have a right to hide your identity in public...really not that tough a concept.[/quote]

lets all go around town and wear ski masks that cover our face. :UnderCov:

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Like I said: it's not even only the security issue that bothers me, [B]the burqa is a de-humanizing piece of clothing[/B] and therefore inherently incompatible with a society in which we advocate human rights and equality among the genders.

Malaysia is criticizing us and says it's a racist measure, but fuck them: what is this thing with Muslim states getting pissed off at Western countries for delineating their own identities huh? We're not telling Malaysia to ban the burqa...we're doing it in the Netherlands.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Al Jazeera: [url]http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/31FC41DA-9441-4D37-98B3-4956A62BEF78.htm[/url]

And I agree on the burqa. Banning veils is out of the question imo.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

my god what is the matter with everybody...how can people agree with this? have we reached the bottom this fast? should they start outlawing yarmulkes as well? how about crosses, rosaries, habits, etc. how about clothes which can be taken to identify somebody as American, African, Asian, etc. not only is it discriminatory, it's borderline fascistic. and religio-racist. how does wearing a burqa make someone a terrorist again?...because the 9/11 hijackers were wearing turbans, right?...they were so EASY to identify as terrorists because they didn't look like other Americans, right? they didn't look like they could be anyone's neighbor practically anywhere in the US, right?:roll::roll::roll: How could we be so STUPID...I know...let's ban religious wear...THAT'S the ticket!!!

so, the logic is that it's a security precaution, when in fact it's a political move to try to get less muslims to feel comfortable in the Netherlands. that's really fucked up...yeah, alright, the main terrorist threat is from muslim extremists, but it's still a tiny minority. i don't know about the Dutch bill of rights, but I guess freedom of religion isn't there. maybe they don't want it to be. But then who decides what is ok and what isn't?

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

^^^ There's a clear difference between burqas and veils

Burqa (forbidden) [IMG]http://www.afghan-web.com/shop/nproducts/images/burqa.jpg[/IMG]

Veil (allowed) [IMG]http://www.stanford.edu/~siegelr/borneo/wendypix/muslimwoman.jpg[/IMG]

Just a little insight sam: after the Taliban got chased out of Kabul, less and less women are wearing a burqa in Afghanistan. It's not a religious symbol (like the veil), but a fundamentalist symbol.

But sometimes it can be damn sexy too...

[IMG]http://www.zhaba.com/pics/lil-kim-burqa.jpg[/IMG]

Anyway, it has nothing to do with terrorism (in the first place). The main reason is that people are expected to adapt to our values when they come here. Imagine a woman with a halter top entering a mosque in Saoudi Arabia, think that would pass?

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Here's the part I believe some people here are missing out on, when I go to an arabic country I have to dress accordingly, if I don't want to dress that way then I just don't go there...the same applies here. Our western nations have a different take on appropriate clothing, if you don't want to respect western country's take on it then don't go there and definitely don't move there. That's also called freedom of choice.

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the sad thing is that this really has NOTHING to do with the so-called ideas of integration, assimilation, or national acceptance. but is so driven by the assholes who, 5 years ago, decided to attempt to initiate world war 3 by flying 4 planes into US buildings......... never did we hear, think, or even bother to fathom the concept of forced integration, or examining the acceptance of religious garb, because no one cared, we all were, or at least thoguht we were on the same page in regards to equality and freedom.

lets face facts and cut the bullshit. this is so much more of the islam vs west fight than integration. here in NYC, i see ppl of every race and creedo living together. but we have to understand that the bad guys on both sides are fueling this stupid ironic theory. yes it is ironic. social acceptance and freedom being forced upon another for the sole idea of integration? BULL-FUCKING-SHIT, we allowed oursleves, our neighbors and our leaders (this being moreso in europe) to put up a barrier to freedom because somewhere, a man might wear a burqua or nijab to hurt someone......

god this is the dumbest thing ever. you arent going to encourage any ideas you want to by telling ppl they cannot live life as they choose to. while yes, i firmly stand behind the idea that , in this case, we must enforce the idea that the country's laws are concrete and above every islamic law, we cannot openly say that we want freedom and equality from one side of our mouth, while saying you cant embrace your religion, social customs and ethnic history out of the other......

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btw, does anyone else notice, or feel like i do? i mean, at least i understand why they are doing it, but i dont neccessarily agree.

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i think the good outweighs the bad in this particular situation, but i do concede your point.

just for the women who are forced to wear them alone, this will be a blessing...

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[QUOTE=thesightless;410090]the sad thing is that this really has NOTHING to do with the so-called ideas of integration, assimilation, or national acceptance. but is so driven by the assholes who, 5 years ago, decided to attempt to initiate world war 3 by flying 4 planes into US buildings......... never did we hear, think, or even bother to fathom the concept of forced integration, or examining the acceptance of religious garb, because no one cared, we all were, or at least thoguht we were on the same page in regards to equality and freedom.[/quote]

And were wrong, so now it's time to draw a few lines in our society. It's pretty logical that in the most liberal society you get the worst backlash on cultural freedom, since it will also be the place where people abuse their freedoms the most.

Dude, looking at the things we hear now...Muslims say [I]we[/I] are intolerant because we think they should shake hands with women, because we want them to behave according to the general standards of politeness, because we want to keep religion out of the public sphere. At the same time they have the guts to [I]demand[/I] that we respect their mostly religiously inspired behaviour and [I]adapt ourselves to their standards within our own country[/I] - and it's the freedom in this country they had that made them cross the lines of what one can ask in a multi-cultural society. They just didn't know how to moderate themselves and wanted it all. Mosques, wearing religious garments, not learning our language and remaining social anomalies by sticking to their own habits.

Well, now you have it: the Dutch are getting extremely pissed off with the fact that they are supposed to ignore their own cultural background and should accept everything alien, and not just that: they should [I]obey[/I] alien rules, alien habits. Politics right now is making a hard right turn, and though most people oppose real right-wing thoughts, they are in support of stronger measures that will ensure that we can live life according to our rules and standards, not those of some backwards reli-freak from the desert.

[quote]lets face facts and cut the bullshit. this is so much more of the islam vs west fight than integration. here in NYC, i see ppl of every race and creedo living together. but we have to understand that the bad guys on both sides are fueling this stupid ironic theory. yes it is ironic. social acceptance and freedom being forced upon another for the sole idea of integration? BULL-FUCKING-SHIT, we allowed oursleves, our neighbors and our leaders (this being moreso in europe) to put up a barrier to freedom because somewhere, a man might wear a burqua or nijab to hurt someone......[/quote]

It takes two to tango. And we did it alone all this time. The whole concept of 'freedom' is culturally relative anyway, it doesn't exist in an absolute form. Now, we see infringements on the [I]European[/I] freedoms, and that's what this reaction is all about. Face it man, a Muslim, Hindu and Christian may agree on many things, but it won't ever be the definition of freedom. Never.

Talking of freedom without the cultural context is equal to assuming that the other has the same definition you do. That is never the case, not even among 2 Americans, let alone between an American and a European or a Muslim. And sorry, my freedom is the Dutch one, and people here are actively contesting my freedoms here right now. My logical reaction will be to defend them, even if it takes measures that might disadvantage those that do not accept them. Tough luck.

[quote]god this is the dumbest thing ever. you arent going to encourage any ideas you want to by telling ppl they cannot live life as they choose to. while yes, i firmly stand behind the idea that , in this case, we must enforce the idea that the country's laws are concrete and above every islamic law, we cannot openly say that we want freedom and equality from one side of our mouth, while saying you cant embrace your religion, social customs and ethnic history out of the other......[/QUOTE]

See what I said before, and then again: it's not even really about integration. It's about delineating barriers. This is done very rigidly and clearly in Muslim countries for example, it's about time we did it here. My credo has always been: [COLOR="Orange"]my respect for another one's culture ends where his respect for mine ends.[/COLOR] Period.

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i hear where you are coming from, but a muslim wearing a traditional garb isnt neccessarily the showing they dont respect our culture, it shows, to me at least, that they value thier own. here, and im only speaking from my locality, i deal with people from the middle east and south asia all the time, and they never seem to act differently, showing values that are similar to what i consider my own. so what? for me, it doesnt imply that a hasidic jew should cut the curls and stop wearing black...

the only line i draw is to the people who put islamic law above the home country's. i.e. those idiots in germany who performed honor killings, the africans who secretly perform female genital mutiliation... and so forth.

there are bad eggs everywhere. along the lines and standards being set right now, i would eventually become a law breaker, i just shaved my head and if we really took this too far, than i would assume that shaven heads equate to neo nazi's or white supremicists.......

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maybe i just dont see a barrier being drawn due to someone wearing garb... i see it when they ignore what thier surroundinds find acceptable in relation to treatment of people... here, everyone treats each other fairly well.

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but hey if you want to look like a member of the addams family, i guess i cant tell you no.

[IMG]http://www.formotionproducts.com/images/Cousin-it.jpg[/IMG]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=thesightless;410148]

i would eventually become a law breaker, i just shaved my head and if we really took this too far, than i would assume that shaven heads equate to neo nazi's or white supremicists.......[/quote]

Nah. I would just assume they are going bald, and trying to hide it. :Laugh:

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@ Sightless: I respect your opinion in this, I may not agree but I do see the point in what you say. I don't know why I see it differently, but it might have to do with the fact that of late Muslims have been using the burqa/niqaab and things like not shaking hands to provoke reactions, to which of course they reacted in outrage, accusing us of discriminating them.

I think I've pointed you to the case in which a hardline Muslim wanted to be hired in a public function and still insisted on wearing traditional clothing and refusing to shake hands with women. I don't know about you, but refusing to shake hands with someone around here is seen as an active sign of disrespect, and insult. I think it is no more than fair that when you live here, you behave accoring to certain rules of politeness, as is expected of me when I'm in a foreign country. Since we live in a secular state, religion should also be kept out of the public sphere, [I]especially when in a public function[/I]. Meaning no traditional religious clothing or explicit religious behaviour. Not to mention the simple dresscode to which one should abide in such a position: [I]suit[/I]. This guy totally pissed off everyone with his whining about racism, while all he did was make ridiculous demands. The worst thing is that the Committee for Equal Treatment backed him up!! That committee has always been a group of mega-lefties that think everything from outside is good and everything Dutch is despicable. I have some documentation on this feature, something very common among leftist intellectuals, but I need to find an English translation. The committee is one for, thank god...they are getting the boot.

At the office where I work 2 ladies wear a scarf, but their don't veil their faces. I wouldn't accept it either to be honest...I can't stop it but I definitely wouldn't approve of it - for the personal reason that I think it's something that is meant to objectify women. Just as I will refuse to shake the hand of a man that won't shake my woman's hand.

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De huminazing as you say Yao would be allowing women to be exhibited on the streets and in stores naked while being sold like animals, covering your head or your face or your ass if it was your personal choice is freedom for the person who choosed to do it, but if it interferes with the local laws like working or travelling than I am with you it should be banned but not on the streets.

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i dont see how a viel objectifies a woman at all im sorry...in fact it probabely helps her insulate or curtail any approach and 'appreciation'....and by appreciation i mean you know when you see a sweet lili girly walking down with a lil ol skirt on twiddling her thumbs hair flowing skin showing ..mm mm mmm....you cant stop yourself from thinking something....just a lil nasty...and you would assume that she wore those clothes and decked herself up like that knowing that indeed this is what she would provoke...not that there is any malicious intention...its just were used to it....thats how it is...

so it seems odd that some woman would not want to do that....and volunatrily make herself less appealing...i think on the contrary it would be liberating....but she has the right to choose at least....its her right...its her choice....

in fact the other day i was thinking why these women from the subcontinent "choose" to wear thier traditional clothes rather than a shirt and jeans or a dress perhaps...i mean wouldnt they have wanted to growing up in a conservative traditional society...isnt it every girls desire..to look pretty....but then how fuked is that thought.....absurd it seems to me im no girl...and even if i was its almost demeaning to think that that is what people think...that my pbjective in life is to be good looking and ill take any oppertunity to do that....why does wearing jeans suddenly make you part of a society..cuz everyone else does?....i dont think so....

plus i mean think about how uncomfortable for these people it would be to suddenly not wear thier traditional clothes which they feel really comfortabvle with...i ask all the boys here to wear a dress....im sure they wont feel comfortable...(altought some i feel will feel right at home)...regardless its because your not used to it its wierd..it feels wierd...

so what if these women 'choose' not to wear a fitted clothes...stuck to thier skin showing thier bits....it must be uncomfortable and a wierd feeling...the majority of the clothes they wore throughout thier life was nothing like this 'western' clothing (if there is such a thing)....its what they feel comfortable with and its thier choice.... in no way is it a 'threat' to national security or whatever the fonk....that a load of shit...and how its suddenly ostrasizes them from a community is not thier problem..its the communities problem and in ability to see someone past thier appearance..how fickle.....

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[quote=Yao;410235]@ Sightless: I respect your opinion in this, I may not agree but I do see the point in what you say. I don't know why I see it differently, but it might have to do with the fact that of late Muslims have been using the burqa/niqaab and things like not shaking hands to provoke reactions, to which of course they reacted in outrage, accusing us of discriminating them.

I think I've pointed you to the case in which a hardline Muslim wanted to be hired in a public function and still insisted on wearing traditional clothing and refusing to shake hands with women. I don't know about you, but refusing to shake hands with someone around here is seen as an active sign of disrespect, and insult. I think it is no more than fair that when you live here, you behave accoring to certain rules of politeness, as is expected of me when I'm in a foreign country. Since we live in a secular state, religion should also be kept out of the public sphere, [I]especially when in a public function[/I]. Meaning no traditional religious clothing or explicit religious behaviour. Not to mention the simple dresscode to which one should abide in such a position: [I]suit[/I]. This guy totally pissed off everyone with his whining about racism, while all he did was make ridiculous demands. The worst thing is that the Committee for Equal Treatment backed him up!! That committee has always been a group of mega-lefties that think everything from outside is good and everything Dutch is despicable. I have some documentation on this feature, something very common among leftist intellectuals, but I need to find an English translation. The committee is one for, thank god...they are getting the boot.

At the office where I work 2 ladies wear a scarf, but their don't veil their faces. I wouldn't accept it either to be honest...I can't stop it but I definitely wouldn't approve of it - for the personal reason that I think it's something that is meant to objectify women. Just as I will refuse to shake the hand of a man that won't shake my woman's hand.[/quote]

okay...i see how you might want to take away certain practices which encourage or enable social dissention, but it seems to me that the problem is not only with some the angry (and, from what you're describing, exploitative) muslim population, but from those who would accept their claims as valid (like, everyone else). I don't know who to blame for this phenomenon, because it happens everywhere: the media, public confusion and lack of understanding and context, prejudice, whatever, allow people who make a big deal out of something (however originally inoffensive or innocuous) to make it seem actually more offensive and/or contemptable simply through media scrutiny. So, from what you're saying, the reaction to the offense, such as breach of social norms resulting in insult (misconstrued or otherwise) seems to be just as inflammatory because the victimized muslim (or any minority) population is seen to be more credible than the "offenders". The reaction by the muslims automatically validates their own claims of racism through self-qualification, even be they hardly meritorious, because the put-upon minority is "always right".

So, it seems like they're getting away with an insidious form of exploitation, much like existing racial tensions here in the US cause exploitation of people with no racist agenda.

...but back to the matter at hand: these women are wearing the burqa in a free society, not a theocracy. the claims that the burqa is demeaning to women are baseless; the women wear them out of custom or respect, not out of obedience to law. Now, if they are planning to violently overthrow the government, take them out. but what does clothing have to do with that?

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[quote=sammwalk;410357] ...but back to the matter at hand: these women are wearing the burqa in a free society, not a theocracy. the claims that the burqa is demeaning to women are baseless; the women wear them out of custom or respect, not out of obedience to law. Now, if they are planning to violently overthrow the government, take them out. but what does clothing have to do with that?[/quote]

you really believe that?! these women are wearing them because they were brainwashed to, and because if they don't their husbands will either beat or disown them, probably both. anyone who says otherwise needs to wake up and smell the subjugation.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

I really don't care what people say, but the Burqa is something that has been installed as a prescripted piece of clothing by religious clergy - women that say they wear it voluntarily may do so but fail to realize how it is a habit (and as such accepted) which is a cultural/religious construction. The sole authority on this clothing lies within Islam, especially here >> the nly people covering themselves like that for practical reasons must be the Tuareg who live in the Sahara desert. Probably more people in Arabic regions used to dress like that for practical reasons (strange as it may seems, it keeps you cool in the hot desert sun), and if that was case it has always been [I]men and women[/I], not just women.

You see...the practical side is virtually non-existent in this case, which is underlined by the fact that it is a prescription that only goes for women. Just like the rule that men are obligated to grow a beard among hardliners...it's simply one of many little rules that ultimately design your whole life. As Maladay also noted, it has a lot to do with sexuality - it is to be repressed, especially among women. Why? Because the men are in power in Islam, despite the 'rights' women have. The very fact that it is necessary to mention that women DO have rights in Islam makes that statement completely worthless and intrinsically points to the fact that their status is not equal to that of men. There is also a lot of anthropological literature that explicitly connects power to sexual power, and if one is to take enough time it's most probably very easy to apply that to the structure of Islam.

@Sammwalk: pretty interesting (and hard to decipher, but i think I managed), and I do agree that the media and the general spirit at the moment do play a role. I myself however have always had this stance towards the burqa and the niqaab, I just know how to phrase my arguments a little better after a few years of anthropological studies ;-). It has been researched and has become apparent that it is a trend amng leftist intellectuals to (1) favour that which is foreign over domestic, and (2) favour the 'underdog' or minority over the majority. Meaning: We're always at fault here - for example: we are solely guilty of Africa's misery according to a lot of them, and we should respect other cultures when we meet them.

What these people tend to forget is that we also have a culture of our own, why shouldn't we respect our own? And is it so harmful to look at the real reasons why Africa is still backwards in it's economic development? I'm not allowed to mention the problem of corruption there (which is extreme!! - I've done my thesis research on this), but I am allowed to repent for the fact that my ancestors traded slaves. That is completely unbalanced, isn't it? Cultural relativism is good to a certain extent, but it becomes a problem when I start denying my own values and identity IMO....

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[quote=day_for_night;410539]you really believe that?! these women are wearing them because they were brainwashed to, and because if they don't their husbands will either beat or disown them, probably both. anyone who says otherwise needs to wake up and smell the subjugation.[/quote]

that is so far from the truth. maybe in saudi arabia, but not many other places. i have been called a lot of shit here.. anti muslim, anti jew, racist..... but comon. are you serious.. it is a devotion to something higher. just because you and me dont hold religion close, doesnt mean they dont. i used to wear a cruxifix everywhere. attended mass every sunday until college.. voluntarily. they do too. they dont do it in fear. if they feared it that badly on a large scale, you would be hearing a HUGE outcry. accept and embrace the fact that they hold faith high in their lives and live in sacrifice and devotion to something more than the typical bullshit ppl cry about.

my opinion here is that of admiration. if they choose to wear the veil, in the face of the modern world, then they should be admired.

lets name people who did things they beleived were right while the world/coutry/surrounding disagreed.

lincoln rose parks MLK...

thats just three.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=thesightless;410548]that is so far from the truth. maybe in saudi arabia, but not many other places. i have been called a lot of shit here.. anti muslim, anti jew, racist..... but comon. are you serious.. it is a devotion to something higher. just because you and me dont hold religion close, doesnt mean they dont. i used to wear a cruxifix everywhere. attended mass every sunday until college.. voluntarily. they do too. they dont do it in fear. if they feared it that badly on a large scale, you would be hearing a HUGE outcry. accept and embrace the fact that they hold faith high in their lives and live in sacrifice and devotion to something more than the typical bullshit ppl cry about.

my opinion here is that of admiration. if they choose to wear the veil, in the face of the modern world, then they should be admired.

lets name people who did things they beleived were right while the world/coutry/surrounding disagreed.

lincoln rose parks MLK...

thats just three.[/quote]

i'm not making this up...honestly. my neighbours before i moved cities were very strict muslims. i knew the son well, and he said if either his sister or mom was caught outside not wearing the full burqua, that they were pretty much out of the family, no exaggeration.

its the same thing for several religious groups (ie. muslims, shiks, jews) if you marry outside your faith. you get disowned. just cause they've moved countries doesnt meant they stop being the way they were back in their homeland...

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ok, now ask the husband for permission to ask the wife a question and ask HER why she wears it. do hindu women wear traditional garb out of fear as well?

i dont want to drag others into this. but i would ask kamal on what sugana's opinions on holding traditional ideals close are..

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=thesightless;410553]ok, now ask the husband for permission to ask the wife a question and ask HER why she wears it. do hindu women wear traditional garb out of fear as well?

i dont want to drag others into this. but i would ask kamal on what sugana's opinions on holding traditional ideals close are..[/quote]

:shock:

you can't honestly think you're gonna get a straight answer from someone who has to be given permission to respond to a question!?

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

i only say that as to not offend the husband if he truly is a devout muslim who deems his wife is only eleigible to leave the house with him. you damn well know what i meant