Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=Yao;410546]I really don't care what people say, but the Burqa is something that has been installed as a prescripted piece of clothing by religious clergy - women that say they wear it voluntarily may do so but fail to realize how it is a habit (and as such accepted) which is a cultural/religious construction. [/quote]

but think about how many things we do that are habits of social and religious construction that in some ways limit ourselves and/or control our thinking. it's unstoppable.

[quote=Yao;410546]It has been researched and has become apparent that it is a trend amng leftist intellectuals to (1) favour that which is foreign over domestic, and (2) favour the 'underdog' or minority over the majority. Meaning: We're always at fault here - for example: we are solely guilty of Africa's misery according to a lot of them, and we should respect other cultures when we meet them.

What these people tend to forget is that we also have a culture of our own, why shouldn't we respect our own? And is it so harmful to look at the real reasons why Africa is still backwards in it's economic development? I'm not allowed to mention the problem of corruption there (which is extreme!! - I've done my thesis research on this), but I am allowed to repent for the fact that my ancestors traded slaves. That is completely unbalanced, isn't it? Cultural relativism is good to a certain extent, but it becomes a problem when I start denying my own values and identity IMO....[/quote]

but shouldn't culture (specifically, and not national identity) be something that exists on its own and not something that is enforced? and i don't see how allowing people of other faiths to wear their traditional garb, however unflattering to equality it may be, impinges on others' values. i think the thing to be aware of is not allowing rabble-rousers to add significance to something which has little or none.

[quote=thesightless;410548]my opinion here is that of admiration. if they choose to wear the veil, in the face of the modern world, then they should be admired. [/quote]

to me it seems like it's just a basic freedom. to wear what you want. if it carries religious symbolism for some, so be it. if not for others, okay. we attach significance to these things as people; symbolism is not intrinsic to the articles.

personally, i don't care about what happens to the muslim population. however, the liberties sacrificed in the name of security will eventually extend to others, for less and less justifiable reasons.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[COLOR=magenta][B]They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.[/B][/COLOR] [COLOR=magenta][/COLOR] [B][COLOR=magenta][/COLOR][/B]

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=Bululu;410848][COLOR=magenta][B]They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety.[/B][/COLOR]

[/quote]

Playing devil's advocate.... But define "essential" liberty. ;)

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Prove me wrong better than just showing us that you know words Mr. noob. Essential means I respect you and you respect me , I don't do anything that offends you but at the same time you don't stick your nose in everything I do, Is this general definition of what I am mean by essential liberty enough for you or should I continue ?

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Th funny thing is that Muslim can be Muslims to a great degree in ur society, but I cannot be really me in theirs. I think I'm still way ahead in giving freedom to those people.

As for that quote: if you read it correctly it says that people that are willing to give up liberty to get safety in return don't deserve either - you only deserve liberty when you're prepared to take it all the way, including the unsafety it might bring. I'm sick of being told what to do in my country by people that (1) don't come from here and (2) live far away - Malaysia for example has fuckall to say about our policies. The funniest thing yet is that the ban here is being criticized all over the world, but i hear NOTHING about the ban in what was it...Jordania or Tunisia? We we do it, it's wrong, and if they do it we keep quiet about it.

Fuck ostrich-politics and political over-correctness.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

[quote=Bululu;410928]Prove me wrong better than just showing us that you know words Mr. noob. Essential means I respect you and you respect me , I don't do anything that offends you but at the same time you don't stick your nose in everything I do, Is this general definition of what I am mean by essential liberty enough for you or should I continue ?[/quote]

No reason to be rude. I was asking a valid (albeit rhetorical) question, and frankly I don't think your answer makes much sense.

Since when is respecting anybody an "essential" liberty? In the USA, we can respect others..... or respect no one.... it's our own choice whether or not to do so. If you choose not to respect others, that is your own perogative... but you shouldn't expect to be respected in return.

Some essential liberties include:

Right to life Right to property Right to persue happiness Right to work Right to justice

The right to wear what you want in public is not an "essential" liberty. For example, a nudist might choose to wear nothing... but is that person permitted to do so in public? No. Should that person be allowed to? Our society and laws say no, and I agree. There must be certain standards enforced, which do infringe upon some liberties.... for the benefit of everyone on the whole. And if you choose to integrate into a new society, then you must submit to some of the customs of that society.

Like Yao said..... if he goes over to a muslim country and does not follow their customs, he will not be "respected". In fact, it may cost him his life in extreme cases.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

The ban in Tunisia is criticized by all the arab and muslim world , too bad you don;t read arabic , the western media take only what they like , and if you do not hear about it Yao doesn't mean it is not happening.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Ok then tell mr , how does wearing a scarf in your free and liberal society bother you , please don't come up with that national security bullshit because the world have had enough of it . PS:doesnt the liberty of persuing happiness if a woman choose to wear a scarf take away if you decide that she has to take it off?

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

to post 1: I tried but didn't find...too bad about that. I don't just take anything for granted here what the media say though.

post 2: I've never even mentioned state security as a reason, and I'm gonna put it very bluntly now: I don't give a flying fuck about security reasons, we as a liberal society have certain rules and one of them is equality of gender. As the Burqa or the Niqaab are instruments of a religion to deny women that equality I don't think they're fit around these parts, and anyone that loves being suppressed by men/religion and wants to wear degrading clothing should fuck off to a country where that is accepted.

Muslims are allowed to vent all kinds of comments on my culture and my life style, and all I have to do is listen and shut up? Don't think so. I've not yet heard anything from you Bululu that shows me that you respect my views, my culture. All you have doen so far is try and get me to respect yours. I have Islamic friends by the way...I ask, I learn. That doesn't mean I agree with everything, and liek I've said: I won't actively verbally or physically attack someone that leads a life that is not mine. But I am allowed to voice my opinion, and I am deifnitely allowed to defend my own legacy if foreigners expect me to change my behaviour according to their wishes on my territory, while they also expect me to do so when I'm visiting theirs. Respect is not a one-way street my friend.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Yao , sorry if you took this as an attack against you or the western society , I live in one and I respect fully the societyi live in , to tell you the truth we are a familly of muslims and my mother is a teacher here , and she wears head scarf after years of me and my dad saying no to her ( and trust me I was the biggest reason why she didn't wear it up until a year ago ) but because she respects this society she takes it off before entering the school she teachs at, why?? because it is the country's rules to do so , but getting to the point where even on the street you cant wear what you want than it gets a bit too much, think what ever you want about Burqaa but its up to the person itself to decide to wear it or not. PS: I hope that our debates will always stay nice and educative to the others Yao .

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

I never took it as a personal attack Bululu, thanks for caring about it though. And I hope it has been clear all the while that I do in no way oppose the normal scarf either; it's the veiling kind (niqaab) and the burqa I don't like. Now if people really choose to wear them, who am I to oppose it? But voluntary or not, if it had never been prescipted by Islamic clergy, I highly doubt that women would suddenly pick up the habit of wearing on the first place...I hope this clarifies my line f thought in saying that it is repressive. It has never 'grown' out of women themselves, it has at some point been imposed on them and might in time have become so accepted that it is by many Muslimas not regarded as repressive anymore. I tend to look at the historical roots of it, maybe that is actually a reason why I'm having such a hard time to accept it right now.

One improtant thing you mentioned was that your mother takes it off when she's in front of a class: that means to me she DOES respect certain basic values here. The people that piss me off are those that refuse to do so and simply demand that I adapt to their standards, like the guy refusing to shake hands in a public office. That is just ridiculous, and I believe it is actually that case (was all over the place the past few months) has strengthened my negative feelings about allowing foreign cultural traits around here. I don't know, but Muslims setting the rules for me here, destroying shit because of a few cartoons, dancing in the streets to celebrate the death of 3000 Americans with whom I have a lot more in common than them...there is always a line that can be crossed, and i'm on the edge right now. I will never hate Muslims in general, let that be clear, but I definitely am drawing a hard line of what I accept and what not. I need to do that to know who I am...

Something else too: prostitution here may be allowed, but there are also times that I see a woman behind one of those windows in Amsterdam, usually about my age. And almost everytime I see one (rarely, but it has happened a few times) I cannot help but think that she should not have to sell her body to stay alive and get an income. They like the money, but most of those women are traumatized in some way - there has even been research into that, that proved it. They are a simple result of the market though: they fulfill a demand, and it is economically interesting enough, so it seems...hard but true.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

It took Ahmed 3 weeks to figure out Amina had left him for another

[URL="http://www.pakfriet.be/pics/burka_cartoon.jpg"][IMG]http://www.pakfriet.be/pics/burka_cartoon.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

:mrgreen:

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Moehahahaha....

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

I hear another riot coming...

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

hahahahashahahahahaha

fuck em. backwards society in the middle east, and the last few years have proven they simply arent worth it. cant wait for all the saudi people that are in their young 20's to be fed up with being unemployed. we'll see how fast they embrace the worldwide culture of freedom when they realize that living like they do doesnt garner any sympathy or privelege. if it werent for oil, the world would let the place rot right back into the dark ages while every one prospers.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

Now why you Dutch people gotta go n ban da burgas?? mmm burga wit cheeze n fryz...mmmm dats sum good shit.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

lol....

I saw this hot chick last week...wearing a scarf. But I could see her face (pretty) and she was wearing a really tight dress :Naughty:

She was mucho allright, except that she prolly will he humped by a beard in a few years and will spend the rest of her life obeying the orders of some hardline piece of shit. Damnit, she deserves freedom, and above all: GOOD SEX.

Re: The Dutch to ban burqas

slaves to stereo types and unrealistic unconsidered assumptions...

the burkha is one thing, the scarf is another....im confused as to what some people are saying here....i mean the cartoon depicts the extreme shit....thats a burkha..a full on burkha....and for all intents and purposes i dont think thats ok to parade around in denmark or dutchland wearing that full on shit... a scarf is something else...head covering is a bit different...its about modesty not some slaveship to 'your man'...and this equality argument is a steamer...woof..i can smell it till here....what wearing a ascarf makes you less than a man....ha..haha...

whats a nun....whats her dress like...oh..it has some white...