The rich keep getting richer

#34229Post 1 of 412006-10-24

[url]http://www.motherjones.com/news/exhibit/2006/05/perks_of_privilege.html[/url]

#734300Post 2 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

all very true, but look at how good the economy is doing... :roll:

#734303Post 3 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

what are you resonator? a commie? if it weren't for CEO's there wasn't an economy to start with...

#734313Post 4 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

so therefore the CEOs get to take all the spoils? I believe in fair compensation, even more than fair compensation, but the amount of disequality between the pay raises of CEOs and those of their workers is criminal.

#734329Post 5 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

^^no commie, im just pissed im not an exec at exxon :lol:

#734331Post 6 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

Let's just say the CEO of Sony has to study harder to become CEO, put in more hours and bears more responsability than the chump at the assembly line.

Little example to show how far that responsability goes: one of the companies I do consulting for had an accident in their factory (basicly one of the workers got squished under a 200 ton press during maintance). Even though it was blatant that the worker didn't follow the safety procedures at all AND was under the influence of drugs, the CEO was dragged in front of the court. Belgian law states that the hierachic line bears full responsability of what goes on inside a factory and should take measures to prevent shit like that happening.

So yeah, big difference in pay, but it has a reason and imo it's too simplistic to go bashing CEO's like this.

#734345Post 7 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

im in the boat of you earn it, you keep it. just because bill gates was a marketing genious doesnt mean he should share his money. if a CEO can jump his company up in the ranks, he should be compensated. and when companies are worth billions, then millions in pay is spot on.

#734357Post 8 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

i dont disagree with the article, more power to larry ellison and his yacht(s), if i was in their spot i would agree with you 100%. i am just jealous :lol:

#734368Post 9 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

so does a CEO who loses money for their company still deserve an exorbitant salary? It's hard to argue that that CEO has earned it, he just so happens to get it because of his position in society. I've seen ridiculous bonuses for CEOs who have done nothing but lose money year after year. What the hell are they getting a bonus for?

#734369Post 10 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=rubyraks;395067]so does a CEO who loses money for their company still deserve an exorbitant salary? It's hard to argue that that CEO has earned it, he just so happens to get it because of his position in society. I've seen ridiculous bonuses for CEOs who have done nothing but lose money year after year. What the hell are they getting a bonus for?[/quote]for the stupidty level of the shareholders...

#734371Post 11 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[QUOTE=KinKyJ;395027]Let's just say the CEO of Sony has to study harder to become CEO, put in more hours and bears more responsability than the chump at the assembly line.

Little example to show how far that responsability goes: one of the companies I do consulting for had an accident in their factory (basicly one of the workers got squished under a 200 ton press during maintance). Even though it was blatant that the worker didn't follow the safety procedures at all AND was under the influence of drugs, the CEO was dragged in front of the court. Belgian law states that the hierachic line bears full responsability of what goes on inside a factory and should take measures to prevent shit like that happening.

So yeah, big difference in pay, but it has a reason and imo it's too simplistic to go bashing CEO's like this.[/QUOTE] ONLY 3% OF STUDENTS at the top 146 colleges come from families in the bottom income quartile; only 10% come from the bottom half.

Is that still fair or are essentially those CEOs riding the backs of those unprivileged that don't have the same opportunities and then when they find themselves in the privileged position of CEO, they continue to take that same advantage of those below them by paying themselves more and more and the workers less and less. Kinda like the US Congress, who find it important enough to give themselves many raises over the years, yet leave minmum wages untouched. Do the congressman have any new responsibilities that warrants giving themselves more money, but none to the everyday worker?

I really hate the argument that boils down to once privileged always privileged and screw the rest, ie. it takes money to make money. It really is impossible to grow as a society as a whole if that's the way forward. :roll:

#734375Post 12 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

ben you need to get into market regulation law. i can see a passion there.

#734379Post 13 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=rubyraks;395070]ONLY 3% OF STUDENTS at the top 146 colleges come from families in the bottom income quartile; only 10% come from the bottom half.

Is that still fair or are essentially those CEOs riding the backs of those unprivileged that don't have the same opportunities and then when they find themselves in the privileged position of CEO, they continue to take that same advantage of those below them by paying themselves more and more and the workers less and less. Kinda like the US Congress, who find it important enough to give themselves many raises over the years, yet leave minmum wages untouched. Do the congressman have any new responsibilities that warrants giving themselves more money, but none to the everyday worker?

I really hate the argument that boils down to once privileged always privileged and screw the rest, ie. it takes money to make money. It really is impossible to grow as a society as a whole if that's the way forward. :roll:[/quote]wow wow wow, now you're mixing up things imo (study opportunities and giving yourself a raise because you're in a position to do so). You have a valid point on the raises (especially concerning Congress, but that has nothing to do with business) and as of that 3%... Ye well, that's just reality. But a degree isn't a ticket to CEOness per definition. One of the largest electrical engineering companies here is owned by a guy who studied to be an electrician. But since he didn't want to settle for wiring houses for the rest of his life, he worked his ass off for his own, took a few risks and there ya go.

Btw, raising minimum wages only boosts consumption (pro) and creates slackers (contra).

#734383Post 14 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=KinKyJ;395027]Let's just say the CEO of Sony has to study harder to become CEO, put in more hours and bears more responsability than the chump at the assembly line.

Little example to show how far that responsability goes: one of the companies I do consulting for had an accident in their factory (basicly one of the workers got squished under a 200 ton press during maintance). Even though it was blatant that the worker didn't follow the safety procedures at all AND was under the influence of drugs, the CEO was dragged in front of the court. Belgian law states that the hierachic line bears full responsability of what goes on inside a factory and should take measures to prevent shit like that happening.

So yeah, big difference in pay, but it has a reason and imo it's too simplistic to go bashing CEO's like this.[/quote]

the game of kiss-ass requires no education, just experience. Most of the CEO's probably have nothing more than a bachelor's. Knowing how to manipulate situations is vital in the business world.

#734388Post 15 of 412006-10-24

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=Localizer;395084]the game of kiss-ass requires no education, just experience. Most of the CEO's probably have nothing more than a bachelor's. Knowing how to manipulate situations is vital in the business world.[/quote]No offence, but how much experience do you have in the "business world"? Judging from your post very little I'd say...

#734610Post 16 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=KinKyJ;395089]No offence, but how much experience do you have in the "business world"? Judging from your post very little I'd say...[/quote]

Man, last I remember businesses/CEO's exploit? The view from outside the box. Maybe you can fill me in on how the CEO isn't cheating his/her employees.

#734628Post 17 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

now let's look at the opposing side:

[url]http://www.motherjones.com/news/exhibit/2006/07/exhibit.html[/url]

#734637Post 18 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=Localizer;395321]Man, last I remember businesses/CEO's exploit? The view from outside the box. Maybe you can fill me in on how the CEO isn't cheating his/her employees.[/quote]Maybe you can fill me in with facts to show me "most CEO's don't have anything more than a bachelor" and that manipulation is the key word in business, more than strategic management, market knowledge, enterprise resource planning and what not.

And btw, if you're that certain that businesses and CEO's exploit, you should move to Cuba or North Korea.

#734679Post 19 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

I belive that a person in a higher postion should get paid more but should not get exoirbitant salaries, there should be a better dsitribution of the goods, someone here put the example of bill gates I mean he´s the richest man on earth (I know I know he has a lot of social programs) why does he need another million dollars for? And at least back in Mexico the middle class is disappearing leaving about 5% of really really really rich people (example Carlos Slim 4th richest person in the world) and all of the rest poor. I guess it all comes down on how´s the way you think, I just don´t see me living living in my 100 millon dollar house knowing that some of my workers can´t even aford a car, a decent home even send there kids to college. There should be a limit, for example here in Austria rich people have 50% of there income taken away by taxes. I guess amog other things is why this country has the 4th best living standar in the EU.

#734746Post 20 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

i work in this feild, and with some rather successful individuals.. a bachelors degree isnt getting you anywhere nowadays.
bill gates made is fortune in stock sales and valuation, moreso than his salary, he owned something that had its value increase millionfold.
if you dont earn it , you damn sure dont deserve it. ill use dick cheneys construction firm for example. putting aside politics. why in the work does a guy who never got through highschool and works welding rebar on prodjects deserve more while the guy who got the engineering degree (not cheney) and the guy who sets up the contracts and deserve less... im sorry they dont. everyone has the chance, and if you take it, they enjoy the spoils.
look at jenks, im damn positive he isnt giving the low lvl clean up guy a share of his money because he owns and operates his shop.

#734787Post 21 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=thesightless;395464] he owns and operates his shop.[/quote]

Thats a key issue in this debate. Take Bill Gates for instance, since he seems to be on everyones list. Gates is an OWNER of his company. He started it and still owns most of it. Shareholders and owners take most of the risk and in most small companies do most of the work. They deserve every penny they earn.

Now I do have a problem with CEO's who are hired by huge public corporations earning what I would call astronomical sums. It is definately taking shareholders and employees to the cleaners.

#734801Post 22 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

I'll grant you that a CEO needs more than a bachelor's in just about every case, but why is there a disconnect between what the CEO brings to the company and how much he's earned and what the average employee brings to the company and how much he's earned? To find it conscionable that a CEO could make 100s of millions a year while their own employees are paid poverty wages is beyond my undersdanding and imo pure greed. I'm sure a CEO like that could easily give up a few mil without hurting his finances whatsoever and live his life exactly as he would before without a problem.

This is the issue I believe that resonator is trying to take up here...the income disparity between the rich and the poor. It should be a crime, but unfortunately our Congress by defining minimum wage at such ridiculously low poverty levels has essentially justified CEOs in doing this.

And before any of you start the well they negotiated it and they earned it BS defense, let's take a look at who they're actually "negotiating" this with. The board of directors, one of the greatest boy clubs ever invented in the history of business. We've created a corporate system that essentially shields that board, who are supposed to be held responsible to the shareholders, from most lawsuits, unless they've done something that is so explicitly and obviously wrong. From a legal perspective, that board usually has to go well beyond negligence and general incompetance to be held liable.

Now let's look at who composes most BODs. Most board members sit on the boards of many different companies and get paid a handsome amount to sit there. The amount of incestuousness within those boards is simply astounding. So what you end up with is a CEO "negotiating" their salary from a board that is truly made up of their peers (buddies) and when one of those peers is "negotiating" their own salary with some other board, very often you find that same CEO sitting on the other company's board (or at least some of their friends). How convenient...

I've seen this scenario play itself out many many times and the wonderful insulation that the law (especially in Delaware) gives to these boards helps to strengthen these conspicuous ties.

So I ask, why provide these boards and executives such great protections if they have no duty to perform at least at some conscionable level? Shouldn't there be a fair tradeoff between the public and the board/executives for the protections that the laws are giving them? In legal speak, where's the consideration to the public for what they're giving up?

#734807Post 23 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

its all different viewpoints. i have sat with the board of lehman and trust me, these guys earn every penny they make. the sheer amount of stress on a CEO to maintain performance of billion dolalr companies, while keeping the shareholders in the loop and being accountable to shareholders, local governments anc ommunities, the SEC, and thier own employees while keeping the bottom line profitable while expanding into new ventures... trust me, a multi million dollar salary is right where it should be.

#734811Post 24 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

I'm not disagreeing with the multimillion dollar salaries, it's just the ridiculous ones that have no relation to the company's size or profitability.

#734812Post 25 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

ben im telling you, you are in the wrong feild man. i know enough about law to tell you would rock in market regualtion.

#734813Post 26 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

maybe, just maybe....hmmm........how's the pay? ;) :lol:

#734815Post 27 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

easy 170K a year once they get you partnership.

#734832Post 28 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=thesightless;395464]

if you dont earn it , you damn sure dont deserve it....[/quote]

Yes and no. I think that people that just put there hand out and say "give me I?m so poor" deserve to be where they are, but come on there are lots of people that bust there ass every day and get no where I mean (i?m sure you don?t have them but we do) for example a common peasant works since the sun comes out till the sun gets down and wins nothing well almost nothing, I mean with all the work they do they should be millionaires. What I mean is: here is where you take a bit (i?m sure it wont hurt to take a few thousands or maybe 1 million a year to some who makes millions) from the overpaid CEO?s or what ever the case is and help these people out, give them something so there kids can go to school and don?t have to stay home and work. Now if they don?t take the chance, there again they deserve to be where they are.

#734833Post 29 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

they should have taken advantage of education. they can always go back and learn something. sorry, i have no pity for the labor feilds. if by now you dont realize that a college education is required in this world to make a decent check, then you frankly dont deserve one.

#734834Post 30 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

call it darwinism for the professional

#734843Post 31 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=thesightless;395553]they should have taken advantage of education. they can always go back and learn something. sorry, i have no pity for the labor feilds. if by now you dont realize that a college education is required in this world to make a decent check, then you frankly dont deserve one.[/quote]

Thats true, the problem is not everybody has a chance to get in to college. Like I said before if you have a education you should get better paid, I just think the difference of wages shouldn´t be so big.

#734846Post 32 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

and that is why we all have opinions. personally i cannot find a reason to critique it. if you are responsible for the whole sha-bang, then you should be compensated. there is also things like goodwill valuation in salaries whereas they take into the effect of ''if you werent there'' and what would happen to the direction of the company. i.e. they factor in future effects of one's ideas on direction.

#734886Post 33 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[QUOTE=thesightless;395553]they should have taken advantage of education. they can always go back and learn something. sorry, i have no pity for the labor feilds. if by now you dont realize that a college education is required in this world to make a decent check, then you frankly dont deserve one.[/QUOTE] Do you really see the issue in such simple terms? Does it not cross your mind that the educational opportunities that either you or I had are not available to everyone? I know the price I had to pay to afford college (without my parents help), let alone law school, is not necessarily an option to many others. I also know that my parents having put me in private school from a young age (albeit a horrible religious one) had helped me get into college in and of itself. Do you not see that education is used as a barrier to the system and a way for the privileged to maintain their privileged status?

No one's saying that the labor deserves the CEO's salary in any respect, but at least the fair wages they deserve so that perhaps their children could afford to go to college and so they don't have to live off welfare/food stamps themselves. To argue that it is fair to pay labor below livable wages just because they didn't go to college is kinda ridiculous, imo.

#734893Post 34 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

not when i have clients who grew up in the worst areas of harlem and the bronx to lack luster parents, realized where they were, and fought their way out by studying hard and going to community college to prove themselves worthy of a sholarship to better schools. no. like i say, there are better role models for low income children than britney and jay z. it really does come down to what the individual wants, and most of the time, they dont want it. listen, come down to my sisters place on saturday and ask her, she teaches in kew gardens and will give you a fair picture of what goes on. they try they really do, but when you cant get the kids to stop hanging out and get some homework done, well..... you can only do so much for another person.

hey, you know damn well im not acting the wiseass here. its deeper than we want to think, but desire is the first and biggest factor.

#734896Post 35 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

the food stamp collectors are the people who sit home as opposed to getting a second job. buying clothes instead of baby formula... i see it all the time when a single mom comes in and asks what she needs to do b/c dad took off.

dont address the CEO's, address the low income people and why they are there. i know a few people who are on the path to life long waitering jobs becuase they simply dont try and they grew up in wealthy areas out here. desire. you me and everyone else around here wanted a job and got it.

#734913Post 36 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

I address both the greedy CEOs and the lazy poor people, where the blame lies entirely within themselves. The CEOs are unconscionable, greedy and only give a damn about themselves, without a second thought about how those enriching them through their own production are living. The lazy poor people only have themselves and their laziness to blame.

It's those people who aren't lazy workers, but are still poor that I'm concerned with and getting a second job doesn't always cut it. Are you actually saying that you've never met anyone who wasn't lazy, but still poor?

#734997Post 37 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=KinKyJ;395349]Maybe you can fill me in with facts to show me "most CEO's don't have anything more than a bachelor" and that manipulation is the key word in business, more than strategic management, market knowledge, enterprise resource planning and what not.

And btw, if you're that certain that businesses and CEO's exploit, you should move to Cuba or North Korea.[/quote]

-Don't put words in my mouth that I haven't said.

Original Quote. "Most of the CEO's probably have nothing more than a bachelor's."

As for CEO's exploiting... I can always bring up Enron? Maybe Airbus? UnitedHealth? MassMutual? KLA-TenCor?

And how does me saying that businesses exploit make me a communist? I guess the phrase "fair and ethical business practices" has never crossed your mind?

[URL]http://www.cornellsun.com/node/19167[/URL]

I agree that CEO's should get payed the most, but they get paid more than enough. They exploit employees and the public.

Edit: [url]http://www.census.gov/csd/sbo/cbosummaryoffindings.htm[/url]

Most have a bachelor's with only a few having a masters. Most people start their company small after they get a bachelors and then get a masters later.

#735022Post 38 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[QUOTE=Localizer;395734]Edit: [url]http://www.census.gov/csd/sbo/cbosummaryoffindings.htm[/url]

Most have a bachelor's with only a few having a masters. Most people start their company small after they get a bachelors and then get a masters later.[/QUOTE] I agree with you wholeheartedly, but this survey does nothing to further your point. It doesn't even refer to CEOs, who oftentimes do not own the business (unless we're talking about each and every shareholder). From my understanding, this survey would cover many who own retail and wholesale businesses, even pushcarts. In that case, I'm not as surprised at the statistics about their education.

#735040Post 39 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

[quote=rubyraks;395762]I agree with you wholeheartedly, but this survey does nothing to further your point. It doesn't even refer to CEOs, who oftentimes do not own the business (unless we're talking about each and every shareholder). From my understanding, this survey would cover many who own retail and wholesale businesses, even pushcarts. In that case, I'm not as surprised at the statistics about their education.[/quote]

This was to show an idea that those who are running, not just owning businesses, most likely have a bachelors. It's the closeststatistical data I could get.

#735048Post 40 of 412006-10-25

Re: The rich keep getting richer

yeah, but it's only looking at the top 5 interest owners of the businesses surveyed...so it isn't necessarily looking at those running the business.

Music madethis place,we just kept itgoing...

The rich keep getting richer