war on hezbollah?....wat a fuking scam....this is a joke...bloody inexcusable one at that..they say barrages of rockets continously falling on israel and killing civilians...wat and 7 days of that and 15 of them are dead?....over 350 have been killed...over 350...majority have been wmen and children....and the airstrikes?...the bombardment...israel is using phosphorous filled rockets....because this chemical has not been addressed directly in the charter which came out after the napalm used by the u.s.....every day i see little kids who will have burns and scrars for life....families are destroyed everyday....as you read....aparment buildings...power stations?....water supply?...and then roads demolished....and then wat flyers coming in to south lebenon telling e to leave...haha...ill lock you in a room and then tell you run out cuz im going to set it a blaze..i did my part yeah?...haha.... israel has such an advanced hi tech army....wat a piece of shit....i cant think straight right now..im sorry if i sound anti whatever....at this point i feel like taking up arms my self....we know there is a hidden agenda...dont listen to the bullshit....innocent people are dead and dieing....this is a violation of humanitarian law....violation of human rights.....an absolutely unproportioned un diplomatic response which was planned....they just want to kill...and america is supporting thir right to 'self defence'...seems like they playing some cheezy basketball game where the best defence is the best offence....kill kill kill...... and this hi tech amazing army is incompetent too...cuz the rockets are still firing...i hope they are no more death of israely innocent civilians....but i know more lebanese inoocent children WILL die......and is it ok? wat makes it ok?

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

ITS funny. i know everyone has a bias in one way or another, but what do you say about the innocent people killed in the name of these terrorists who hijacked a religion into chaos. last time i looked, the militant groups account for roughly 400-500 deaths a week. you never posted here b4 about it. but once a controversal country stands up for itself, you scream. personallly, i think its a little out of hand at this point, but i still believe they have every right to defend themselves at all costs. and frankly, the lebanese government also belives this as they have been holding thier military in the north, albeit a tentative pause, but they are allowing isreal to get rid of an illegal army who preys on innocents.

what exactly are your thoughts on how hezzbollah, hamas, and the ICU operate? is it ok because the USA doesnt have ties to somalia, gaza, west bank, and india/kashmir? or is isreal just a target because they are a more headline driven country? and lastly, how would you handle these groups? negotiations obviously arent the cure, as they continue to bomb, capture and undermine isrealis and innoncent worldwide .

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

^ ^ I'd be surprised if he comes back at you with some logical response. :p

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

that's just it, thier response, while very heavy handed, is the only logical solution at this point. for several reasons.

1. lebanon cannot handle hezzbollah, and they are not willing to send thier army in on thier own people.
2. lebanon has its own problems with syria
3. no negotiations have worked, not since they began trying.
4. the world as a whole, needs to step up and disarm these militias. and frankly, the militias i speak of are willing to die in favor of thier religious based hatred. yes innocents are dying, but we all act if isreal is launching surprise attacks. they are not. in any way. even lebanon acknowledges this. the IAF has been dropping pamplets informing the people to either evacuate or wave the white flag.
5. no one else is willing.

this is so far past a peaceful point, now is the time to halt the works of hamas, hezz, and the ICU. if it takes violence, then we have to deal with it. if we do not stop and eliminate them now, they will only re arm, and attack again.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Maladay, If you are in Lebanon, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all the pain and suffering you are going through. Its natural that you should feel angry at those that are causing you such pain. You should demand some answers from the International community.

But you wont. Why, because those to blame are Hizbollah, your government, Syria and Iran.

When Syrian backed, and Iranian armed, Hizbollah hide in your homes, use those homes for storage of weapons, use those who live in those homes as human shields, I can understand why you attack Israel on these pages.

After all had your own government, and the internaitonal community, ensured the implementation of Res 1559, you would not be the position you are in, and therefore you would not be attacking Israel on these pages.

Had Hozbollah not rained rockets into northern Israel as a pretext to murder and abduct members of the IDF on Israeli soil, you would not be in the position you are in now and I would not have to read your attack on Israel on these pages.

So continue to attack Israel here Maladay, for whilst you and your brethren continue to attack Israel nothing is being done about cleaning Lebanon of outside control which plummets your country back a generation or two.

So, like I said above, I'm sorry that things are rough for you, but you need to focus your anger at those who have ensured that your country is destroyed and your citizens used as human shields for a militia that your government has agreed to disarm.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Good read.....[URL="http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740949.html"]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740949.html[/URL]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[B][SIZE=5]Empire: War and Propaganda

[/SIZE][/B]The US role in supporting Israel’s military assault on Lebanon falls into a pattern of imperial tyranny, where history is rewritten to suit America’s needs while Europe stands cravenly by.

[B]By John Pilger[/B]

[B]07/26/06 " [/B]The National Museum of American History is part of the celebrated Smithsonian Institution in Washington, DC. Surrounded by mock Graeco-Roman edifices with their soaring Corinthian columns, rampant eagles and chiselled profundities, it is at the centre of Empire, though the word itself is engraved nowhere. This is understandable, as the likes of Hitler and Mussolini were proud imperialists, too: on a "great mission to rid the world of evil", as President Bush has also said.

One of the museum's exhibitions is called "The Price of Freedom: Americans at war". In the spirit of Santa's Magic Grotto, this travesty of revisionism helps us understand how silence and omission are so successfully deployed in free, media-saturated societies. The shuffling lines of ordinary people, many of them children, are dispensed the vainglorious message that America has always "built freedom and democracy" - notably at Hiroshima and Nagasaki where the atomic bombing saved "a million lives", and in Vietnam where America's crusaders were "determined to stop communist expansion", and in Iraq where the same true hearts "employed air strikes of unprecedented precision".

The words "invasion" and "controversial" make only fleeting appearances; there is no hint that the "great mission" has overseen, since 1945, the attempted overthrow of 50 governments, many of them democracies, along with the crushing of popular movements struggling against tyranny and the bombing of 30 countries, causing the loss of countless lives. In central America, in the 1980s, Ronald Reagan's arming and training of gangster-armies saw off 300,000 people; in Guatemala, this was described by the UN as genocide. No word of this is uttered in the Grotto. Indeed, thanks to such displays, Americans can venerate war, comforted by the crimes of others and knowing nothing about their own.

In Santa's Grotto, there is no place for Howard Zinn's honest People's History of the United States, or I F Stone's revelation of the truth of what the museum calls "the forgotten war" in Korea, or Mark Twain's definition of patriotism as the need to keep "multitudinous uniformed assassins on hand at heavy expense to grab slices of other people's countries". Moreover, at the Price of Freedom Shop, you can buy US Army Monopoly, and a "grateful nation blanket" for just $200. The exhibition's corporate sponsors include Sears, Roebuck, the mammoth retailer. The point is taken.

To understand the power of indoctrination in free societies is also to understand the subversive power of the truth it suppresses. During the Blair era in Britain, precocious revisionists of Empire have been embraced by the pro-war media. Inspired by America's Messianic claims of "victory" in the cold war, their pseudo-histories have sought not only to hose down the blood slick of slavery, plunder, famine and genocide that was British imperialism ("the Empire was an exemplary force for good": Andrew Roberts) but also to rehabilitate Gladstonian convictions of superiority and promote "the imposition of western values", as Niall Ferguson puts it.

Ferguson relishes "values", an unctuous concept that covers both the barbarism of the imperial past and today's ruthless, rigged "free" market. The new code for race and class is "culture". Thus, the enduring, piratical campaign by the rich and powerful against the poor and weak, especially those with natural resources, has become a "clash of civilisations". Since Francis Fukuyama wrote his drivel about "the end of history" (since recanted), the task of the revisionists and mainstream journalism has been to popularise the "new" imperialism, as in Ferguson's War of the World series for Channel 4 and his frequent soundbites on the BBC. In this way, the public is "softened up" for the rapacious invasion of countries on false pretences, including a not unlikely nuclear attack on Iran, and the ascent in Washington of an executive dictatorship, as called for by Vice-President Cheney. So imminent is the latter that a supine Congress will almost certainly reverse the Supreme Court's recent decision to outlaw the Guantanamo kangaroo courts. The judge who wrote the majority opinion - in a high court Bush himself stacked - sounded his alarm through this seminal quotation of James Madison: "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many, and whether her editary, self-appointed, or elective, may justly be pronounced the very definition of tyranny."

The catastrophe in the Middle East is a product of such an imperial tyranny. It is clearly a US-ordained operation, with the long-planned assault on Gaza and the destruction of Leba non pretexts for a wider campaign with the goal of installing American puppets in Lebanon, Syria and eventually Iran. "The pay-off time has come," wrote the Israeli historian Ilan Pappe; "now the proxy should salvage the entangled Empire."

The attendant propaganda - the abuse of language and eternal hypocrisy - has reached its nadir in recent weeks. An Israeli soldier belonging to an invasion force was captured and held, legitimately, as a prisoner of war. Reported as a "kidnapping", this set off yet more slaughter of Palestinian civilians. The seizure of two Palestinian civilians two days before the capture of the soldier was of no interest. Neither was the incarceration of thousands of Palestinian hostages in Israeli prisons, and the torture of many of them, as documented by Amnesty. The kidnapped soldier story cancelled any serious inquiry into Israel's plans to reinvade Gaza, from which it had staged a phoney withdrawal. The fact and meaning of Hamas's self-imposed 16-month ceasefire were lost in inanities about "recognising Israel", along with Israel's state of terror in Gaza - the dropping of a 500lb bomb on a residential block, the firing of as many as 9,000 heavy artillery shells into one of the most densely populated places on earth and the nightly terrorising with sonic booms.

"I want nobody to sleep at night in Gaza," declared the Israeli prime minister, Ehud Olmert, as children went out of their minds. In their defence, the Palestinians fired a cluster of Qassam missiles and killed eight Israelis: enough to ensure Israel's victimhood on the BBC; even Jeremy Bowen struck a shameful "balance", referring to "two narratives". The historical equivalent is not far from that of the Nazi bombardment and starvation of the Jewish Warsaw Ghetto. Try to imagine that described as "two narratives".

Watching this unfold in Washington - I am staying in a hotel taken over by evangelical "Christians for Israel" apparently seeking rapture - I have heard only the crudest colonial refrain and no truth. Hezbollah, drone America's journalistic caricatures, is "armed and funded by Syria and Iran", and so they beckon an attack on those countries, while remaining silent about America's $3bn-a-year gift of planes and small arms and bombs to a state whose international lawlessness is a registered world record. There is never mention that, just as the rise of Hamas was a response to the atrocities and humiliations the Palestinians have suffered for half a century, so Hezbollah was formed only as a defence against Ariel Sharon's murderous invasion of Lebanon in 1982 which left 22,000 people dead. There is never mention that Israel intervenes at will, illegally and brutally, in the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine, having demolished 11,000 homes and walled off people from their farmlands, and families, and hospitals, and schools. There is never mention that the threat to Israel's existence is a canard, and the true enemy of its people is not the Arabs, but Zionism and an imperial America that guarantees the Jewish state as the antithesis of humane Judaism.

[B]Government silence [/B]

The epic injustice done to the Palestinians is the heart of the matter. While European governments (with the honourable exception of the Swiss) have remained craven, it is only Hezbollah that has come to the Palestinians' aid. How truly shaming. There is no media "narrative" of the Palestinians' heroic stand during two uprisings, and with slingshots and stones most of the time. Israel's murders of Rachel Corrie and Tom Hurndall have left them utterly alone. Neither is the silence of governments all that is shocking. On a major BBC programme, Maureen Lipman, a Jew and promoter of selective good causes, is allowed to say, without serious challenge, that "human life is not cheap to the Israelis, and human life on the other side is quite cheap actually . . ."

Let Lipman see the children of Gaza laid out after an Israeli bombing run, their parents petrified with grief. Let her watch as a young Palestinian woman - and there have been many of them - screams in pain as she gives birth in the back seat of a car at night at an Israeli roadblock, having been wilfully refused right of passage to a hospital. Then let Lipman watch the child's father carry his newborn across freezing fields until it turns blue and dies.

I think Orwell got it right in this passage from Nineteen Eighty-Four, a tale of the ultimate empire:

"And in the general hardening of outlook that set in . . . practices which had been long abandoned - imprisonment without trial, the use of war prisoners as slaves, public executions, torture to extract confessions . . . and the deportation of whole populations - not only became common again, but were tolerated and even defended by people who considered themselves enlightened and progressive."

John Pilger's new book, "Freedom Next Time", is published by Bantam Press

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=thesightless]negotiations obviously arent the cure, as they continue to bomb, capture and undermine isrealis and innoncent worldwide .[/quote] negotions are a cure, but condo rice and the bush administration fail to give them better terms. They ask for Hezbollah to disarm but not Israel. How do you think Hezbollah is gonna feel about those terms?

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Maladay, If you are in Lebanon, I'm sorry. I'm sorry for all the pain and suffering you are going through. Its natural that you should feel angry at those that are causing you such pain. You should demand some answers from the International community.

But you wont. Why, because those to blame are Hizbollah, your government, Syria and Iran.

When Syrian backed, and Iranian armed, Hizbollah hide in your homes, use those homes for storage of weapons, use those who live in those homes as human shields, I can understand why you attack Israel on these pages.

After all had your own government, and the internaitonal community, ensured the implementation of Res 1559, you would not be the position you are in, and therefore you would not be attacking Israel on these pages.

Had Hozbollah not rained rockets into northern Israel as a pretext to murder and abduct members of the IDF on Israeli soil, you would not be in the position you are in now and I would not have to read your attack on Israel on these pages.

So continue to attack Israel here Maladay, for whilst you and your brethren continue to attack Israel nothing is being done about cleaning Lebanon of outside control which plummets your country back a generation or two.

So, like I said above, I'm sorry that things are rough for you, but you need to focus your anger at those who have ensured that your country is destroyed and your citizens used as human shields for a militia that your government has agreed to disarm.[/quote]

Excuse me, was it not sparked first by IDF running around Gaza strip, and then followed by the kidnappings of IDF soldiers? I think both sides are at fault and Israel is just as much to blame for this non-sense as Hezbollah is.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Localizer

Events in Gaza, the south, and events on the lebanon border, the north, are not the same.

Whilst i NEVER approve of my governments position re:Gaza, having northern cities bombarder with rockets, crossing the blue line and ambushing IDF soldiers WITHIN Israel is what sparked the northern campaign.

Combine that with the complete failure of the international community and lebanon in enforcing Res 1559 led to the current situation on the northern Israeli border.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Localizer]negotions are a cure, but condo rice and the bush administration fail to give them better terms. They ask for Hezbollah to disarm but not Israel. How do you think Hezbollah is gonna feel about those terms?[/quote]

No UN resolution 1559, which brought about Israels exit from Southern Lebanon in 2000, calls for Hizbollah to be disarmed to ensure that Northern Israeli communities no longer live in fear of continual rocket attacks from Hizbollah.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Localizer] They ask for Hezbollah to disarm but not Israel. How do you think Hezbollah is gonna feel about those terms?[/quote] Hezbollah is a militia, Israel is a country. You can't make that comparison. No one is asking Lebonnon's army to disarm.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

you are flat out wrong. im sorry to tell you. no negotiations will work. we have given them YEARS. and everytime they argee to something, they default on it. remember iran telling europe they didnt have nuclear goals for 12 years, now look. isreal pulls out thier settlements, and hamas attacks more. isreal wasnt even bothered with lebanon, and hezzbollah jumped in. this is now a war to the end of one side.

im sorry, but you're wrong. there are no facts, thoeries, or plans that will lead to peace. only false hopes.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=threehills]Hezbollah is a militia, Israel is a country. You can't make that comparison. No one is asking Lebonnon's army to disarm.[/quote]

apparently the US already has made that comparison....

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

What do you mean by WE the sightless????

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

thats a good question...'we have given them time?" and [I]they[/I] always default?..haha wat a load of crap dood....try to be a bit objective....and im sorry ifi take long in responding i dont always have a computer on hand....so as for any logical response that beanzcheez was worried about ill try and give it just dont think because you dont get one immediately that you talk sense because sometimes you dont...i am not in lebenon niether do i have any remote connection...im watching cnn and bbc not al jazeera and the news im getting through these filtered machines is probabely a bit biased considering their role in the past few years....even so the shit that i se is just not right man....ambulances have blue sirens so they dont get bombed and they still do...civilivans in civilian cars fleeing the bombs are being bombed...they have to put white flags on the cars huge white cloths saying pplease oh please mr superpower trying to control everything answerable to no body please dont kill us too....and wat happens....bombs filled with phosphorous are dropped....which will cause more damage even if its targeted pin point it burns the fuck out of everything..gets stuck to skin and melts it...this kid the other day had his eyes stuck closed to his cheeks...his little year old sister has been burnt to a crisp but she still alive..thier dad is dead...and mom is alive...they were trying to leave thier town like the israely flyers told them to and they got bombed in an apparent hizbollah aimed attack...this shit about human shields is no justification man..its just isnt...no one bombs the shit out of a hostage situation...they negotioate get the inoocent people out and then fuk em all...right you seen the movies you know the protocol...so if that what these people are doing against their will, wait, talk, check it out...dont just kill everyone there and say yah..jobs done...cuz all these poeple are dying everyday and because apparently hizbollah is being destroyed...but still everyday rockets go into israel...so this high and mighty army is shit...thier 'presion guided'flesh burning bombs are useless... thier objectives are still not complete...and on the side they decide yeah make a trip over gaza and drop some shit over thier too....kill some kids...yay....no onne can say shit to us so why the fuk not..... you have to understand that the images and information that the arab world is getting is not one of purpose or reason...its like you turn on the tv and (excuse the crude reference to race i am only trying to explain something) you see muslims and arabs or whatever gettting fuked up in palestine...then you see that shit in afghanistan then you see that shit in iraq then hey want iran now they fukin lebenon....i say they and you may be confused but you see its all in the same...its a white soldier from a white country be it america, israel, britain, fukin australia fukin denmark whatever the fuk its a white guy from a white country....then you see the white countriies become one common enemy one common oppressor..... any militia or resistance to this opressor will be seen as heroic or indeed worthy of encouragement by the majority of the youths that exist within....did you know the arab countries have the most population of youths that is people from 19 to 29....something like an average of 38% soem even go up to 47% this is massive compared to say america where there is a meger 20%..or even less...i read this article dont quote my figures im just trying to remeber it it was by an american writer talking about the 'summer of rage' compared to the late 60's summer of love...anyway im gone a bit off the topic...i just wanted to show that these hizbollah fighters is not some boon that israel is now getting rid of for the lebanese people and the rest of the world...they will only gain support as more and more civilians die....so will hamas so will eventually the so called al qaeda....this is only adding fuel to the fire.... the shit about the un resolution is a bunch of bulshit too..this resoultion was passed for a young government one unable to meet the damenads expected...rice even said that and yet this resolution is being referred to as if its completely legitimate if you make a schedule for a friend knowing that he is unable or incapable to go through with it i think its unfair to refer to it as some faliure and in need of rectification later.... this is all a bunch of stinky bullshit...and you guys know it man....dont justify this...please..just cuz they arent white people dying shouldnt mean you cant relate to it...next time picture a white person screaming with fear or anger as thier families are blown or fried into non existance.....instead of accepting that these people are "they" and "we" somehow are excluded'...we are all humans man...we are all the same...

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

dude, use paragraphes, capitals and proper interpunction and I'll do the effort to read your post

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Bululu]What do you mean by WE the sightless????[/quote]

the UN, EU, USA, and individual countries like russia, and india. everywhere a region surrounds the middle east there are violent groups trying to impose islamic law on people who dont want it. go ask a somali who won the world cup.... they dont kknow b/c the ICU banned it and murdered 14 people including 4 under the age of 12 because they were watching.

no no no no no no no... no more negotiations, just halt these efforts now.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Impose islamic laws , heheheheh man some times you are funny , do you know that in Lebanon christian population is more than the Muslim one , and they live in harmony and peace until your government wanted to push this stupid Great Middle East idea and instore it, your government is evil and let me remember you some facts , before the first Gulf War Saddam had the backing of the US government to go into Kuwait, and when he did they fucked him up top install their bases in all that region. The US government in not intrested in peace in that region, as long as that conflict is going on your government will be selling weapons to all the region , I repeat it your government is EVIL. PS: if you are really caring about thoes people in Somalia your better as well read a bit more and see what is really happening in Africa , Congo , Ivory Coat and and and ....

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

tell me where i talked about lebanon here, when i explicitly spoke of somalia, and kashmir. just wondering. dont pull my views on hezzbollah in lebanon into an arguement on the problem of armed groups of people killing people who stand in their way of opressing freedoms. i know lebanon has a christian contingent. and frankly, the county was making steps to becoming a more humane region since syria was booted out. its a shame that a small army of gun toting fanatics took over the south.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

youl be surprised how much islamic law coincides with your own constitution..they have fundamental similarities may have some details that are different but the jist s pretty much the same....when shariah or islamic law is interpreted right it is pretty much the same as any other modern western capitalist country....ofcourse the details of which will differ just as they do amongst other non islamic countries....and this small army of gun toting fanatics are giving the fully equipped hi tech first world american israely army a hell of tough time...this small miniscual army is actually quite stronge....i doubt its just a few of..and im sure the resistance will only increase like i said before...

and mr kinky j im sorry dood i didnt think i was writing for phd people its just words man...read em if your interested it probabely woudnt matter how its written if you lookin for what the person is writing about.....next time, i will, try to, be as punctuation conciensous as possible...and ill fix my sepilling too....

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[QUOTE][quote=davetlv].Had Hozbollah not rained rockets into northern Israel as a pretext to murder and abduct members of the IDF on Israeli soil, you would not be in the position you are in now and I would not have to read your attack on Israel on these pages.[/QUOTE]

Many other sources reported otherwise.

[U][COLOR=#9b9b9b][URL="http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html"]http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/israeli_solders.html[/URL][/COLOR][/U][URL="http://www.guerrillanews.com/articles/2445/Kidnapped_in_Israel_or_Captured_in_Lebanon"][/URL]

[URL="http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html"]http://www.forbes.com/technology/feeds/ap/2006/07/12/ap2873051.html[/URL]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[B][COLOR=#7f7f7f]Latest by Uri Avnery[/COLOR][/B][IMG]http://zope.gush-shalom.org/graphics/spacer.gif[/IMG] [B][SIZE=4][COLOR=#161614]In the Gunsight: Syria! or: A Nice Little War[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] 29-7-06

IT IS the old story about the losing gambler: he cannot stop. He continues to play, in order to win his losses back. He continues to lose and continues to gamble, until he has lost everything: his ranch, his wife, his shirt. The same thing happens in the biggest gamble of all: war. The leaders that start a war and get stuck in the mud are compelled to fight their way ever deeper into the mud. That is a part of the very essence of war: it is impossible to stop after a failure. Public opinion demands the promised victory. Incompetent generals need to cover up their failure. Military commentators and other armchair strategists demand a massive offensive. Cynical politicians are riding the wave. The government is carried away by the flood that they themselves have let loose. That is what happened this week, following the battle of Bint-Jbeil, which the Arabs have already started to call proudly Nasrallahgrad. All over Israel the cry goes up: Get into it! Quicker! Further! Deeper! A day after the bloody battle, the cabinet decided on a massive mobilization of the reserves. What for? The ministers do not know. But it does not depend on them anymore, nor on the generals. The political and military leadership is tossed about on the waves of war like a boat without a rudder. As has been said before: it is much easier to start a war than to finish one. The cabinet believes that it controls the war, but in reality it is the war that controls them. They have mounted a tiger, and can't be sure of getting off without being torn to pieces. War has its own rules. Unexpected things happen and dictate the next moves. And the next moves tend to be in one direction: escalation. DAN HALUTZ, the father of this war, thought that he could eliminate Hizbullah by means of the Air Force, the most sophisticated, most efficient and the generally most-most air force in the world. A few days of massive pounding, thousands of tons of bombs on neighborhoods, roads, electricity works and ports - and that's it. Well, that wasn't it, as it turned out. The Hizbullah rockets continued to land in the north of Israel, hundreds a day. The public cried out. There was no way round a ground operation. First, small, elite units were put in. That did not help. Then brigades were deployed. And now whole divisions are demanded. First they wanted to annihilate the Hizbullah positions along the border. When it was seen that that was not enough, it was decided to conquer the hills that dominate the border. There, the Hizbullah fighters were waiting and caused heavy casualties. And the rockets continued to fly. Now the generals are convinced that there is no alternative to occupying the whole area up to the Litani River, about 24 km from the border, in order to prevent the rockets from being launched from there. Then they will find out that they have to reach the Awali River, 40 km inside - the famous 40 km which Menachem Begin talked about in 1982. And then? The Israeli army will be extended over a large area, and everywhere it will be exposed to guerilla attacks, of the sort Hizbullah excels in. And the missiles will continue to fly. What next? One cannot stop. Public opinion will demand more decisive moves. Political demagogues will shout. Commentators will grumble. The people in the shelters will cry out. The generals will feel the heat. One cannot keep tens of thousands of reserve soldiers mobilized indefinitely. It is impossible to prolong a situation which paralyzes a third of the country. Everybody will clamor to storm forwards. Where to? Towards Beirut in the North? Or towards Damascus, in the East? THE CABINET ministers recite in unison: No! Never ever! We shall not attack Syria! Perhaps some of them really don't intend to. They do not dream of a war with Syria. Definitely not. But the ministers only delude themselves when they believe that they control the war. The war controls them. When it becomes clear that nothing is helping, that Hizbullah goes on fighting and the rockets continue to fly, the political and military leadership will face bankruptcy. They will need to pin the blame on somebody. On who? Well, on Assad, of course. How is it possible that a small "terror organization", with a few thousand fighters altogether, goes on fighting? Where do they get the arms from? The finger will point towards Syria. Even now, the army commanders assert that new rockets are flowing all the time from Syria to Hizbullah. True, the roads have been bombed, the bridges destroyed, but the arms somehow continue to arrive. The Israeli government demands that an international force be stationed not only along the Israeli-Lebanese border, but on the Lebanese-Syrian border, too. The queue of volunteers will not be long. Then the generals will demand the bombing of roads and bridges inside Syria. For that, the Syrian Air Force will have to be neutralized. In short, a real war, with implications for the whole Middle East. EHUD OLMERT and Amir Peretz did not think about that when they decided 17 days ago in haste and light heartedly, without serious debate, without examining other options, without calculating the risks, to attack Hizbullah. For politicians who do not know what war is, it was an irresistible temptation: there was a clear provocation by Hizbullah, international support was assured, what a wonderful opportunity! They would do what even Sharon did not dare. Dan Halutz submitted an offer that could not be refused. A nice little war. Military plans were ready and well rehearsed. Certain victory. The more so, since on the other side there was no real enemy army, just a "terror organization". How hotly the desire was burning in the hearts of Olmert and Peretz is attested by the fact that they did not even think about the lack of shelters in the Northern towns, not to mention the far-reaching economic and social implications. The main thing was to rush in and gather the laurels. They had no time to think seriously about the war aim. Now they resemble archers who shoot their arrows at a blank sheet and then draw the rings around the arrow. The aims change daily: to destroy Hizbullah, to disarm them, to drive them out of South Lebanon, and perhaps just to "weaken" them. To kill Hassan Nasrallah. To bring the captured soldiers home. To extend the sovereignty of the Lebanese government over all of Lebanon. To establish a new-old Security Zone occupied by Israel. To deploy the Lebanese army and/or an international force along the border. To rehabilitate deterrence. To imprint into the consciousness of Hizbullah. (Our generals love imprinting into consciousnesses. That is a wonderfully safe aim, because it cannot be measured.) THE MORE the nice little war continues, the clearer it becomes that these changing aims are not realistic. The Lebanese ruling group does not represent anybody but a small, rich and corrupt elite. The Lebanese army cannot and will not fight Hizbullah. The new "security zone" will be exposed to guerilla attacks and the international force will not enter the area without the agreement of Hizbullah. And this guerilla force, Hizbullah, the Israeli army cannot vanquish. That is nothing to be ashamed of. Our army is in good - or, rather, bad - company. The term "guerilla" ("small war") was coined in Spain, during the occupation of the country by Napoleon. Irregular bands of Spanish fighters attacked the occupiers and beat them. The same happened to the Russians in Afghanistan, to the French in Algeria, to the British in Palestine and a dozen other colonies, to the Americans in Vietnam, and is happening to them now in Iraq. Even assuming that Dan Halutz and Udi Adam are greater commanders than Napoleon and his marshals, they will not succeed where those failed. When Napoleon did not know what to do next, he invaded Russia. If we don't stop the operation, it will lead us to war with Syria. Condoleezza Rice's stubborn struggle against any attempt to stop the war shows that this is indeed the aim of the United States. From the first day of George Bush's presidency, the neo-cons have been calling for the elimination of Syria. The deeper Bush sinks into the Iraqi quagmire, the more he needs to divert attention with another adventure. By the way: One day before the outbreak of this war, our Minister of National Infrastructures, Binyamin Ben-Eliezer, took part in the inauguration ceremony of the big pipeline that will conduct oil from the huge Caspian Sea reserves to the Turkish port of Ceyhan, just next to the Syrian border. The Baku-Tbilisi-Ceyhan pipeline avoids Russia and passes through Azerbaijan and Georgia, two countries closely aligned with Israel, like Turkey itself. There is a plan to bring a part of the oil from there along the Syrian and Lebanese coast to Ashkelon, where an existing pipeline will conduct it to Eilat, to be exported to the Far East. Israel and Turkey are to secure the area for the United States. MUST THE sliding into a war with Syria happen? Is there no alternative? Of course there is. To stop now, at once. When President Lyndon Johnson felt that he was sinking into the morass of Vietnam, he asked his friends for advice. One of them answered with five words: "Declare victory and get out!" We can do that. To stop investing more and more in a losing business. To be satisfied with what we can get now. For example: an agreement that will move Hizbullah a few kilometers from the border, along which an international force and/or the Lebanese army will be deployed, and to exchange prisoners. Olmert will be able to present that as a great victory, to claim that we have got what we wanted, that we have taught the Arabs a lesson, that anyhow we had no intention of achieving more. Nasrallah will also claim a great victory, asserting that he has taught the Zionist Enemy a lesson it will not forget, that Hizbullah remains alive, strong and armed, that he has brought back the Lebanese prisoners. True, it will not be much. But that is what can be done to cut losses, as they say in the business world. That can happen. If Olmert is clever enough to extricate himself from the trap, before it closes entirely. (As folk wisdom says: a clever person is one that gets out of a trap that a wise one would not have got into in the first place.) And if Condoleezza gets orders from her boss to allow it. ON THE 17th day of the war , we must recognize that soon we will be faced with a clear choice: to slide into a war with Syria, intentionally or unintentionally, or to get a general agreement in the North, that will necessarily involve also Hizbullah and Syria. At the center of such an agreement will be the Golan Heights. Olmert and Peretz did not think about that in those intoxicating moments on July 12, when they jumped at the opportunity to start a nice little war. But then, were they thinking at all?

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

dig, am well aware of whatreallyhappened site, if thats where you are getting your information from i pity you.

IUt brings together a vile group of far right supremicists and suprisingly left wing conspiracy theorist, but most of what they produce isw pure fantasy.

Fact, HIzbollah sent barrage of rockets into northern israeli settlements, crossed the blue line, attacked soldiers, killed a number and abducted two.

The only people who say otherwise are those that get their news from Iran.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote] [quote=davetlv]dig, am well aware of whatreallyhappened site, if thats where you are getting your information from i pity you.[/quote]

I don't need your pity dave, civil conversation will do just fine thanks.

[QUOTE] The only people who say otherwise are those that get their news from Iran

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, ok.:roll:

Well please point to me to your exclusive source of information suggesting otherwise. :)

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

I dont have exclusive sources of information. . . . if you read the main news suplliers (BBC, CNN, Rueters, AP, NYTimes, Guardian) and then read Haaretz you get more or less a true picture of what went on.

One thing they all have in common is the fact that they acknowledge, as do the UN and the G8, that Hizbollah crossed the Blue Line and attacked Israeli soldiers on Israeli soverign territory. . . .it aint rocket science dude!

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Thank you ISREAL again for surgical precise attacks against these littel kids today , 37 dead children and counting, Terrorists.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Bululu]Thank you ISREAL again for surgical precise attacks against these littel kids today , 37 dead children and counting, Terrorists.[/quote]

And thank you Hizbollah for making them targets.

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/4lovelife/Hezbollah-CowardsPS.jpg[/img]

The text that goes with the photos .........

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/4lovelife/HezbollahCowardsTextPT1.jpg[/img]

[img]http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y30/4lovelife/HezbollahCowardsTextPT2.jpg[/img]

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

I reapt it your army are bunch of terrorists.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

No, the terrorist are the ones who are firing hundreds of rockets a day into my country and hiding themselves and their weapons amongst the innocent lebanese civillian populations.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

oh now you started caring about the lebanesse people , how nice of you dave , you are the man. Terrorists.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Bululu, seeing as you know fuck all about. . . .

Anyhow, to all you others out there who refuse to acknowledge that Hizbollah continue to rain death and destruction upon the Lebanese population by using them as human shield.

[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jS1fX3b-gpk][b]See what really happened at Qana: Hizbullah deliberately endangers Lebanese civilians, in order to kill more Israeli civilians[/b][/url]

I repeat what I've said elswhere, this could have been over the day after it was started. All hizbollah had to do was release the 2 soldiers they kidnapped from Israeli territory and implement UNSC Res 1559.

The only people to blame for the needless deaths in the region right now are Hizbollah and their masters in Iran.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Davetlv, you brainwashed little man, stop watching israeli tv and go read some books. You really have no knowledge what's going on in YOUR own little country, let alone outside it.

What really makes me laugh is when the israelis make such absurd statements as that under "UN resolution 1559, Hezbollah are required to disarm". Perhaps it would be a bit more credible if it weren't for all those Resolutions Israel has ignored over the years:

So here you go Dave, read to your heart's content.

A list of UN Resolutions against "Israel"

1955-1992:

• Resolution 106: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for Gaza raid".
• Resolution 111: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for raid on Syria that killed fifty-six people".
• Resolution 127: " . . . 'recommends' Israel suspends it's 'no-man's zone' in Jerusalem".
• Resolution 162: " . . . 'urges' Israel to comply with UN decisions".
• Resolution 171: " . . . determines flagrant violations' by Israel in its attack on Syria".
• Resolution 228: " . . . 'censures' Israel for its attack on Samu in the West Bank, then under Jordanian control".
• Resolution 237: " . . . 'urges' Israel to allow return of new 1967 Palestinian refugees".
• Resolution 248: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for its massive attack on Karameh in Jordan".
• Resolution 250: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to refrain from holding military parade in Jerusalem".
• Resolution 251: " . . . 'deeply deplores' Israeli military parade in Jerusalem in defiance of Resolution 250".
• Resolution 252: " . . . 'declares invalid' Israel's acts to unify Jerusalem as Jewish capital".
• Resolution 256: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli raids on Jordan as 'flagrant violation".
• Resolution 259: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to accept UN mission to probe occupation".
• Resolution 262: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for attack on Beirut airport".
• Resolution 265: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks for Salt in Jordan".
• Resolution 267: " . . . 'censures' Israel for administrative acts to change the status of Jerusalem". *Resolution 270: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for air attacks on villages in southern Lebanon".
• Resolution 271: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's failure to obey UN resolutions on Jerusalem".
• Resolution 279: " . . . 'demands' withdrawal of Israeli forces from Lebanon".
• Resolution 280: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli's attacks against Lebanon".
• Resolution 285: " . . . 'demands' immediate Israeli withdrawal form Lebanon".
• Resolution 298: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's changing of the status of Jerusalem".
• Resolution 313: " . . . 'demands' that Israel stop attacks against Lebanon".
• Resolution 316: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for repeated attacks on Lebanon".
• Resolution 317: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's refusal to release Arabs abducted in Lebanon".
• Resolution 332: " . . . 'condemns' Israel's repeated attacks against Lebanon".
• Resolution 337: " . . . 'condemns' Israel for violating Lebanon's sovereignty".
• Resolution 347: " . . . 'condemns' Israeli attacks on Lebanon".
• Resolution 425: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw its forces from Lebanon".
• Resolution 427: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to complete its withdrawal from Lebanon.
• Resolution 444: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's lack of cooperation with UN peacekeeping forces".
• Resolution 446: " . . . 'determines' that Israeli settlements are a 'serious obstruction' to peace and calls on Israel to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
• Resolution 450: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacking Lebanon".
• Resolution 452: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to cease building settlements in occupied territories".
• Resolution 465: " . . . 'deplores' Israel's settlements and asks all member states not to assist Israel's settlements program".
• Resolution 467: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's military intervention in Lebanon".
• Resolution 468: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to rescind illegal expulsions of two Palestinian mayors and a judge and to facilitate their return".
• Resolution 469: " . . . 'strongly deplores' Israel's failure to observe the council's order not to deport Palestinians".
• Resolution 471: " . . . 'expresses deep concern' at Israel's failure to abide by the Fourth Geneva Convention".
• Resolution 476: " . . . 'reiterates' that Israel's claim to Jerusalem are 'null and void'".
• Resolution 478: " . . . 'censures (Israel) in the strongest terms' for its claim to Jerusalem in its 'Basic Law'".
• Resolution 484: " . . . 'declares it imperative' that Israel re-admit two deported Palestinian mayors".
• Resolution 487: " . . . 'strongly condemns' Israel for its attack on Iraq's nuclear facility".
• Resolution 497: " . . . 'decides' that Israel's annexation of Syria's Golan Heights is 'null and void' and demands that Israel rescinds its decision forthwith".
• Resolution 498: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to withdraw from Lebanon".
• Resolution 501: " . . . 'calls' on Israel to stop attacks against Lebanon and withdraw its troops".

and the list continues...

Oh and don't forget these UN resolutions were published despite the extreme bias of the UN with the US veto power. The US consistently vetos alot of resolutions against Israel. Imagine how many more resolutions would have been dished out.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Nice to see you back little man.

Condemns, urges, calls for. . . .blah blah

Lets look at the text from the resolution in question shall we

“[I]The Security Council[/I],

“[I]Recalling[/I] all its previous resolutions on Lebanon, in particular resolutions 425 (1978 ) and 426 (1978 ) of 19 March 1978, resolution 520 (1982) of 17 September 1982, and resolution 1553 (2004) of 29 July 2004 as well as the statements of its President on the situation in Lebanon, in particular the statement of 18 June 2000 (S/PRST/2000/21),

“[I]Reiterating[/I] its strong support for the territorial integrity, sovereignty and political independence of Lebanon within its internationally territorially recognized borders,

“[I]Noting[/I] the determination of Lebanon to ensure the withdrawal of all non-Lebanese forces from Lebanon,

“[I]Gravely concerned[/I] at the continued presence of armed militias in Lebanon, which prevent the Lebanese government from exercising its full sovereignty over all Lebanese territory,

“[I]Reaffirming[/I] the importance of the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory,

“[I]Mindful[/I] of the upcoming Lebanese presidential elections and [I]underlining[/I] the importance of free and fair elections according to Lebanese constitutional rules devised without foreign interference or influence,

“1. [B][I]Reaffirms[/I] its call for the strict respect of the sovereignty, territorial integrity, unity, and political independence of Lebanon under the sole and exclusive authority of the Government of Lebanon throughout Lebanon;[/B] [B]“2. [I]Calls upon [/I]all remaining foreign forces to withdraw from Lebanon;[/B] [B]“3. [I]Calls for[/I] the disbanding and disarmament of all Lebanese and non-Lebanese militias;[/B]

“4. [I]Supports[/I] the extension of the control of the Government of Lebanon over all Lebanese territory;

“5. [I]Declares[/I] its support for a free and fair electoral process in Lebanon’s upcoming presidential election conducted according to Lebanese constitutional rules devised without foreign interference or influence;

“6. [I]Calls upon[/I] all parties concerned to cooperate fully and urgently with the Security Council for the full implementation of this and all relevant resolutions concerning the restoration of the territorial integrity, full sovereignty, and political independence of Lebanon;

“7. [I]Requests[/I] that the Secretary-General report to the Security Council within thirty days on the implementation by the parties of this resolution and [I]decides[/I] to remain actively seized of this matter.”

The UN is nothing more than a hostage to 50 odd Islamic countries that control the place, any reading of resolutions againsyt Israel that HAVE ALWAYS negated terror against my country but attack us for defence proves that.

[quote=Sono]Davetlv, you brainwashed little man, stop watching israeli tv and go read some books. You really have no knowledge what's going on in YOUR own little country, let alone outside it.[/quote]

Now on a personal level Sono if you stopped licking that camels ass for a while you would get a true picture of what goes on here in this region, and until you do, you really have very little to say of any value.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Your army are terrorists , lets say that Hizbullah was firing out of thoes buildings , what about the UN building that was bombarded during 6 hours , and that UN building was established there years and years ago and your Terrorists kept hammering them with bombs while ignoring their10 calls to the commandment of your army, wasn't that delberate also. EVIL but one day the truth will take over and you know it, and trust me it will be soon.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Bululu, you should start to look at all the footage being released from the planes.

When a missle launcher shots missles into my country and then hides next to a building what do you expect us to do. Leave the launcer intact?

With all due respect your anger is misplaced - it should be aimed at those who hide their actions amongst the civillian population and not those who are protecting civillians.

The events in Qana prove that hizbollah have no regard to human life what-so-ever. I posted here an article, with pictures, from an Australian news paper showing how Hizbollah hide amongst the civillian population in southern lebanon, and suprisingly i hear no condemnation for you. Why am i not suprised!

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

:lol: , he goes back and quotes resolution 1559. Do you actually know that Israel still occupies Lebanese land (Shebaa farms), still hold lebanese people in prisons for over 20 years, still carry out air raids, still flying over lebanese land without permission. You have broken all the rules. So don't talk to me about resolution 1559.

Imagine if Hisbollah destroyed every bridge in Israel, blew up the international airport, seized the airspace and turned it into a free-fire zone, blockaded the ports, severed every arterial road and ordered people to leave their homes, then bombing them to pieces when they did. Do you think any western leader would utter the words: "Lebanon has a right to defend itself"?

Hizbollah kidnapped two soldiers because after 6 years Israel stopped listenning to calls of releasing prisoners which IT KIDNAPPED, It failed to leave Shebaa farms etc...

Also after the Hizbollah kidnapped the soldiers they simply asked for exchange of soldiers, not an all out war as some in the media are trying to make out.

Funny how as well, everytime Israel bombs something, they say "...but Hisbollah were firing rockets from there". :lol:

I mean seriously, are they trying to insult our intelligence, the airport was a terrorist airport? the roads that lead to hospitals were terrorists roads? the hospitals they destroyed were terrorist? they bombed the UN and said terrorists were there.

What's their proof? some random black and white pictures taken of an aricraft raidar from 20,000 feet of god knows what, when and where because you can't tell sh*t. They could have been taken in Iraq or anywhere in the world for all we know.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

imo Israel has the right to strike and I wouldn't like anything else but Hezbollah blown to kindom come, but I'm getting tired too of that "so what we hit a civilian target, rockets were fired from there."

I guess I'm not the only one getting fed up since the US demands a cease fire within the week.

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sono, yet again you are wrong.

According to the UN the sheba farms belong to Syria - so the 'occupation' of them is nothing to do with Lebanon.

Also, you continue to negate, clearly for your own reasons, the attacks that took place against Israel on the day the soldiers were abducted as a means of cover.

Now onto Qana. . . .

As always all is not as it seems. I've suggested elsewhere that the time line leaves much to be desired. Indeed its not jsut the time line of the event but also of the evidence backing it up

[url=http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html][b]blog [/b][/url]reports.

Milking it indeed!

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Sono, yet again you are wrong.

According to the UN the sheba farms belong to Syria - so the 'occupation' of them is nothing to do with Lebanon.

Also, you continue to negate, clearly for your own reasons, the attacks that took place against Israel on the day the soldiers were abducted as a means of cover.

Now onto Qana. . . .

As always all is not as it seems. I've suggested elsewhere that the time line leaves much to be desired. Indeed its not jsut the time line of the event but also of the evidence backing it up

[URL="http://eureferendum.blogspot.com/2006/07/milking-it.html"][B]blog [/B][/URL]reports.

Milking it indeed![/quote]wtf, that's some weird shit