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16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

151 durable postsStarted 2006-07-24Latest 2008-08-23
#682368Post 41 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Sono, yet again you are wrong.

According to the UN the sheba farms belong to Syria - so the 'occupation' of them is nothing to do with Lebanon.

[/quote]

Thats strange because even SYRIA admitt that the Shebaa farms belong to lebanon. :lol:

I think Syria is a good judge of where its land is and plus the UN is only saying what the US wants it to say.

...and also, you are not going to devalue what the israelis have done. A massacre is a massacre, No country censors its press more than israel except maybe dictatorships like N. Korea.

You really have no class by trying to quote some random evil guy's theory to back up your argument. God, you are desperate.

#682388Post 42 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Sono

The blue line was defined by the UN - hardly a USA puppet - and the UN declare that Sheba farms are Syrian. Nothing you can say will change that fact. If you dont like it, go to the UN.

I'm not devalueing anything. I'm just pointing out that not is all at it seems, and nothing should be taken at face value in this region.

Where is your proof that Israel doesnt have a free press. Really, yet again you prove that you know fuck all about my country.

Just because you disagree with emerging facts does not make those facts or those sharing them evil. Evil is perpertrated by those that bring murder and mayhem to the world on a day to day basis, something you also negate, but here to remind you:

[COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="3"]Today's Update

5,473 Islamist terrorist attacks around the globe since 9/11.[/SIZE]

Iraq and India and the Sudan and Algeria and Afghanistan and New York and Pakistan and Israel and Russia and Chechnya and the Philippines and Indonesia and Nigeria and England and Thailand and Spain and Egypt and Bangladesh and Saudi Arabia and Ingushetia and Dagestan and Turkey and Kabardino-Balkaria and Morocco and Yemen and Lebanon and France and Uzbekistan and Gaza and Tunisia and Kosovo and Bosnia and Mauritania and Kenya and Eritrea and Syria and Somalia and California and Kuwait and Virginia and Ethiopia and Iran and Jordan and United Arab Emirates and Louisiana and Texas and Tanzania and Germany and Pennsylvania and Belgium and Denmark and East Timor and Qatar and Maryland and Tajikistan and the Netherlands and Scotland and...

...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:

"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war." Qur'an, Sura 9:5

" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months : [url]http://thereligionofpeace.com/[/B][/url][/COLOR]

#682396Post 43 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv][COLOR=red] [B]Belgium [/B]

[B]...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:[/B]

[B]"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."[/B] [B]Qur'an, Sura 9:5[/B]

[B]" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months :[/B] [B][url]http://thereligionofpeace.com/[/url] [/B][/COLOR][/quote] The fact that Belgium is on this list, shows how much BOLLOCKS that website has on it. There has NEVER been a muslim terrorist attack in Belgium. Pure uncut propaganda :Bingo:

Any other interesting disinformation David?

#682399Post 44 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

If you will start talking about muslims now than thats sad , but let me tell you something there are more than a billion muslims in this world and just a minority is ruining the image of the rest , but if Isreal continues in doing what it does , it will be really hated by more than a billion individuals who will be ready to scarifice their lives to really protect their dignity and religion , so try spreading words around you that what your army is doing will return against you one day, and that your country should really start thinking about the far futur.

#682406Post 45 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Without doing the work for you I suggest you go through the complete list of attack and then I expect an appology from you Kinky.

And Bululu you're right it is sad that so many attack have taken place since 9/11 in the name of Islam. Whilst the majority stay silent the minority is hell bent on destroying what they can't control. Its not rocket science dude!

My country is thinking about the future, the future of my country which scum like Hizbollah and Hamas and Iran want to destroy. Intresting article for you to [URL="http://www.csmonitor.com/2006/0727/p09s01-coop.html"][B]read[/B][/URL]

Got to go to work now, its been fun boys :lol:

#682409Post 46 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Without doing the work for you I suggest you go through the complete list of attack and then I expect an appology from you Kinky. [/quote] Sorry buddy, I don't invest time in going over lists on websites with fake info.

#682417Post 47 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Sono

The blue line was defined by the UN - hardly a USA puppet - and the UN declare that Sheba farms are Syrian. Nothing you can say will change that fact. If you dont like it, go to the UN.

[COLOR=red][B]...and pretty much wherever Muslims believe their religion tells them to:[/B]

[B]"Fight and slay the Unbelievers wherever ye find them. Seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem of war."[/B] [B]Qur'an, Sura 9:5[/B]

[B]" The List " of Islamic Terror Attacks For the Past 5 Months :[/B] [B][URL="http://thereligionofpeace.com/"]http://thereligionofpeace.com/[/URL][/B][/COLOR][/quote]

Davetlv is quoting the Qur'an :lol: . I think we should call you Comedy Dave from now on. :lol:

Your comments become more ridiculous everytime. I think Syria with its 3000 year history would know where its borders are. If they say it belongs to Lebanon then not even the UN or any governing body can disagree.

#682590Post 48 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Well now you are just showing your complete and utter stupidity Sono.

Borders, as we know them, were only instigated in this region after the demise of the Ottoman empire and the carving out of the region by Britain and France.

Seriously dude, go back and do some research before you open your mouth.

Clearly my knowledge of quaran is slighly better than your knowledge of the regions history.

Are you saying that Sura 9:5 doesnt say that?

#682598Post 49 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[img]http://www.investors.com/images/editimg/ramirez/toon072706.gif[/img]

#682608Post 50 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

I will take care of answering you dave4tly , I know the Qur'an completely and even went to a religious school in Saudi Arabia , so I think no one on this board knows the Qur'an Al Kareem better than me , and to answer you , there are names for the Surats not numbers , just to let you know , GO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and don't belive anything you read on the net, on the net there is alot of bullshit , go back to politics and try to refrain from talking about Islam with out knowing man . or else i'll start posting some bullshit that i'll find on some extrimist muslim websites about jews. Back to politics please.

#682624Post 51 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Bululu]I will take care of answering you dave4tly , I know the Qur'an completely and even went to a religious school in Saudi Arabia , so I think no one on this board knows the Qur'an Al Kareem better than me , and to answer you , there are names for the Surats not numbers , just to let you know , GO DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH and don't belive anything you read on the net, on the net there is alot of bullshit , go back to politics and try to refrain from talking about Islam with out knowing man . or else i'll start posting some bullshit that i'll find on some extrimist muslim websites about jews. Back to politics please.[/quote]

So you're saying the following is not true?

[B][COLOR="Red"]

[SIZE="4"]AL-TAWBA (REPENTANCE, DISPENSATION)[/SIZE]

009.005 But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war); but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.[/COLOR][/B]

Sorry if i quoted it incorrectly first time round. Tell me then dear Bululu the meaning of the above? Who are the Pagans? Does Jewish and Christian prayer qualifies of must it only be Islamic? And what if someone gives chairty but does not pray? Is their life worth less?

As for the source, I have chosen to quote from the Yusufali version, i could have chosen Pickthal or Shakir but they all more or less say the same.

BTW no comments regarding your obvious lack of regional history i see. Am i suprised - not really :roll:

#682639Post 52 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

History lets talk about history dear ,

Jews and christians where living in harmony with the earlier muslims ( they only had to pay some percentage out of their fortune as a tax because the muslim army was protecting them), the prophet was married Mohammed was married to a christian woman , Maria Al Qebtiyah, so dont come and try to show that Islam is a bad religion , we are on this post to discuss your army , if you are intrested in talkng abvout Islam dear open another post and i'll be more than glad to give you a lesson about the real Isdlam not what you see on TV. PS: what regional history , the jews never had a country in that region until you pushed the west using the Shoaaa to give you a country ,or am I wrong ( they always lived under the protection of other civilizations)?????

#682656Post 53 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FodDhZGCuv0&NR[/url]

#682663Post 54 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Again you show that you know nothing about history.

The first Zionist congress was called in 1897, whilst wahat we call the first Aliyah was between 1882 and 1903, whilst Jewish liturgy since the destruction of the second temple has often dreamt of a return to Zion. Zion. B'shanah habah b'yeruslim. Zion. . . .zionist. Zionism is as much a part of Judaism as it is a modern movement.

Now, lets go back to that tax you were talking about. That would be the Dhimmi would it? I can see why you are not keen to go down this route. :roll:

So you want to talk about the army and the current situation fine.

Answer me this then:

If a building is struck at 1.00 am local time, why does it not collapse, supposedly killing many woman and children, until 8.00 am local time?

#682697Post 55 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Answer me this then:

If a building is struck at 1.00 am local time, why does it not collapse, supposedly killing many woman and children, until 8.00 am local time?[/quote]Dave, the answer to that is quite simple: we don't know.

I find that element as well as the info on the blog you linked to quite interesting and I guess one day we'll know the true story.

However, I don't think that this is the time to point fingers and start blaming. For me the main point is that on both sides of the line innocent people are suffering the consequences from the war.

The US now supports the scenario of a cease fire, an international peace keeping force and the neutralisation of Hezbollah (in the South, but let's hope it will be a total neutralisation). That's a fair deal imo. Or isn't it?

#682708Post 56 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Robert Fisk in Lebanon

[URL="http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1205977.ece"]http://news.independent.co.uk/world/fisk/article1205977.ece[/URL]

#682712Post 57 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Since when does israel take UN sercurity council resolutions seriously?

In May 2000, more than 22 years after resolution 425 was passed, Israel withdrew its troops from southern Lebanon.

#682716Post 58 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Interview with Hassan Nasrallah

He talks about UN res 425 and so does a former US embassador.

[URL="http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14254.htm"]http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article14254.htm[/URL]

#682728Post 59 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[B]By Ury Avnery

07/31/06 [/B]George Bush and his vassal, Tony Blair, are no statesmen. They are war criminals. They claim to be pious Christians. They are the physical manifestation of the devil himself.

Interviewed by the BBC's political editor, Nick Robinson, on Saturday 30 July, Blair repeatedly declined to call for an immediate ceasefire in Lebanon.

"Give Israel time to do its job of destruction. Let Israel annihilate Hizbullah and, preferably, Syria as well. When this is done, we shall call for a ceasefire." This is the conclusion which any reasonable person watching Blair's interview would draw. Indeed, it is the conclusion which Nick Robinson himself drew - he said so himself in conversation with the television news presenter after the interview.

Well, Israel has done its job. At least 60 innocent civilians, including many children, were murdered on Sunday 30 July, the very next day after Blair's interview, when Israeli warplanes bombed the basement in which they were sheltering. And still, Bush's vassal will not call for an immediate ceasefire. The closest he would come to this is to call for a ceasefire "as soon as possible", i.e. when Israel has completed its job of murder and destruction.

If there is anyone out there who is still wondering why Arabs and Muslims view Britain and the United States as their implacable enemies, then look no further. To the analysts, experts and commentators, whether in the media or in academia, who are still befuddled as to why Arabs and Muslims are turning to "extremism" and terrorism, we say this: replay the images of murder in Qana, Tyre, Sidon, Beirut and Gaza, then listen again to the war criminal Bush and his poodle Blair resisting calls for a ceasefire, and you have the answer.

Bush and Blair have blood on their hands, oceans of Arab and Muslim blood! The innocents in Lebanon and occupied Palestine are paying a heavy price for the crimes of these two maverick Christian Zionists.

Sadly, many other innocents, not only in the Middle East, but also in Bush's and Blair's own countries will almost certainly pay a heavy price for the actions of these two criminals. For who can doubt that the images of murder in Lebanon and Gaza will inspire many Muslims all over the world to seek revenge? And the victims will almost certainly not be Bush, Blair or the militarist Zionist clique which rules Israel, but innocent people in Europe and the United States.

We urge our Arab and Muslim brothers and sisters not to let murder inspire you to commit murder in revenge, from which only Israel and its allies will gain. Instead, think strategically. Let the blood of the innocents in Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq inspire you to mobilize to isolate Israel and its patrons, politically by seizing the moment and highlighting the reality of Zionism to Western publics, and economically by accelerating the campaign to boycott Israeli goods. It is this, not an eye for an eye, that will ultimately defeat Israel and its imperialist masters, as happened with apartheid South Africa before it. Revenge is a dish best served cold

#682745Post 60 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Well now you are just showing your complete and utter stupidity Sono.

Borders, as we know them, were only instigated in this region after the demise of the Ottoman empire and the carving out of the region by Britain and France.

[/quote]

:lol: , let me explain to you in simple terms we'll subtitute the word land for money. it might make more sense to you. Or maybe i should use the apples and oranges example? :p

Syria: This is Lebanon's money.... Israel: No its not, it's your money!!!! Syria: For Fck sake, this is lebanon's money! Israel: No, its yours! Syria: Well Fck off then, i'm giving it to lebanon. don't tell me what to do with my money!

:lol: @davetlv

#682757Post 61 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=KinKyJ]Dave, the answer to that is quite simple: we don't know.

I find that element as well as the info on the blog you linked to quite interesting and I guess one day we'll know the true story. [/quote]

I agree we don't know, and yet all the MSM are clearly convinced of what happened whilst ignoring the facts.

[quote=KinKyJ]However, I don't think that this is the time to point fingers and start blaming. For me the main point is that on both sides of the line innocent people are suffering the consequences from the war. [/quote]

Whilst that might be your position, one i agree with, thats not the position being pushed by others around here.

[quote=KinKyJ]The US now supports the scenario of a cease fire, an international peace keeping force and the neutralisation of Hezbollah (in the South, but let's hope it will be a total neutralisation). That's a fair deal imo. Or isn't it?[/quote]

That and the return of our two soldiers is what Israel has been calling for since this thing started.

[quote=dig72] Interview with Hassan Nasrallah

He talks about UN res 425 and so does a former US embassador.

[url]http://www.informationclearinghouse....ticle14254.htm[/url][/quote]

Bwahahahahahahahahah information clearing house. Interesting choice of reading there dig. Don't give up your day job now will you.

Whilst i believe in the concept, as stated here time and time again, that we need to read as much as we can before we make up our own minds, we also need to ensure that what we're reading is credible. Next you'll be quoting from Counterpunch and James Bamford :roll: :roll:

#682761Post 62 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=sono]:lol: , let me explain to you in simple terms we'll subtitute the word land for money. it might make more sense to you. Or maybe i should use the apples and oranges example? :p

Syria: This is Lebanon's money.... Israel: No its not, it's your money!!!! Syria: For Fck sake, this is lebanon's money! Israel: No, its yours! Syria: Well Fck off then, i'm giving it to lebanon. don't tell me what to do with my money!

:lol: @davetlv[/quote]

Your analogies are pointless. They really dont matter.

According to the UN the Sheba Farms belong to Syria and not Lebanon.

Deny the facts as much as you like but they are the facts Sono. :roll: :roll: :roll:

#682776Post 63 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Your analogies are pointless. They really dont matter.

According to the UN the Sheba Farms belong to Syria and not Lebanon.

Deny the facts as much as you like but they are the facts Sono. :roll: :roll: :roll:[/quote]

:lol: oh dear.

#682778Post 64 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv] Whilst i believe in the concept, as stated here time and time again, that we need to read as much as we can before we make up our own minds, we also need to ensure that what we're reading is credible. Next you'll be quoting from Counterpunch and James Bamford :roll: :roll:[/quote]

i wonder who you quoted this morning. Shall we scroll back a couple of pages to find your quote of the most random blogger who is an evil ultra right hypocrite who was trying to say that the massacre was exagerated. You really are desperate to back up your losing argument.

Seriously, if you're going to argue your case, do it properly because you're embarassing yourself out of desperation.

#682792Post 65 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=sono]i wonder who you quoted this morning. Shall we scroll back a couple of pages to find your quote of the most random blogger who is an evil ultra right hypocrite who was trying to say that the massacre was exagerated. You really are desperate to back up your losing argument.

Seriously, if you're going to argue your case, do it properly because you're embarassing yourself out of desperation.[/quote] Quite the contary Sono, its you who is embarassing yourself.

You discount the truth because it does not fit into your anti-israel rants.

I share information here to counter your anti-israel approach, not because I have nothing better to do, because in this case you are clearly wrong.

My biggest weapon is truth whilst yours is lies and disinformation.

Your sole method of arguing the information I posted is to claim that it came from an evil right wing blogger, whilst actually ignoring the evidence produced.

So who is embarassing themselves?

#682800Post 66 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]

My biggest weapon is truth whilst yours is lies and disinformation.

[/quote]

Ok oh righteous one. We'll have to take the word of you're buddy e-blogger. May he lead us to glory and rid the world of this evil that is Hizbollah.

You really have become desperate like your government.

First day of War: "We will wipe Hizbollah of the face of the earth"

3 weeks later....

Israel fails to take hold of the tiny border village of Maroun Al Ras having their ass kicked by hisbollah killing 13 of its commandos from its elite unit. :lol:

....and we all know what happens when Israel loses a war. Yes....it starts bombing civilians.

One of most richest dumbass armies in the world backed financially by the US and its allies and they can't beat a militia with world war 2 rockets. :lol:

need i go any further? I guess you and your beloved israel want to be humiliated even further....

I talk to you in couple of weeks to see if you 'wiped hizbollah of the face of the earth'.

[B]Layla Tov[/B]

#682835Post 67 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

So give it back to Syria if it belongs to them , why do you keep occupying it ????? another thing to mention the word you said dave about the tax I've neevr heard it before , in real arabic its called AL JYZIAH and it means you live on an Islamic territory and protected and considered as a muslim. PS:i am really surprised and impressed by the Lebanesse solidarity against what is happening , the plan was to divide the Lebanesse like what is happening right now in Iraq (Sunaa against Shiaa), like Alexander the Great said (Divied, you rule) keep up the resistance .

#682915Post 68 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=Bululu]So give it back to Syria if it belongs to them , why do you keep occupying it ????? another thing to mention the word you said dave about the tax I've neevr heard it before , in real arabic its called AL JYZIAH and it means you live on an Islamic territory and protected and considered as a muslim. PS:i am really surprised and impressed by the Lebanesse solidarity against what is happening , the plan was to divide the Lebanesse like what is happening right now in Iraq (Sunaa against Shiaa), like Alexander the Great said (Divied, you rule) keep up the resistance .[/quote]

So you now acknowledged that Sheba farms belong to Syria.

[SIZE="3"][B]Dhimmi Arabic: dhimmi[/B][/SIZE]

Muslim juridical term for Christians and Jews, sometimes Zoroastrians, Mandeans or even Hindus, living in a society governed by Muslims rulers and law.

Dhimmis have limited autonomy, but full rights to practice their religion and are assured full protection by the rulers. Earlier there was a specific tax, jizya ( Koran 9,29), that Dhimmis had to pay to receive these benefits. Dhimmis who did not pay this tax, either had to convert to Islam or face the death penalty. This tax, higher than the tax Muslims had to pay, was on several occasions one of the most important sources of income for the rulers, and, therefore, they were often little inclined to encourage conversion to Islam, as this would represent a decrease in their income.

It was an early endeavour of the Sharia to add details to the regulations of the jizya. These involved that the Christians could keep all of their churches and convents, but were neither allowed to erect new structures nor restore ruined buildings. The Dhimmis had to give lodging to Muslims for up to 3 days and they had to show Muslims their respect. They could not perform religious rituals in public and no crosses could be used in Muslim quarters. They could not ride on horseback with saddles, nor could they carry weapons or sell alcoholic beverages to Muslims.

Non-Muslims were not allowed to build houses taller than their neighbours' houses. In public they had to carry visible tokens of the religion to which they belonged. If there was a case at the court, Muslim statements were considered of more value than the ones from non-Muslims. But there were no limitations to the professions in which non-Muslims could engage.

Later there were more regulations imposed, as in 853, when Caliph al-Mutawakkil forbade Dhimmis to ride on horses; they had to limit themselves to donkeys and mules. In 14th century Egypt, Jews had to wear a a yellow turban, Christians a blue one.

But in practice, there were fewer distinctions between the people of the different religions: people lived side by side. Non-Muslims could hold the highest positions in society and this during times when Jews in Europe had few or no social rights.

Another word for Dhimmis, is ahl al-kitab, "people of the book", but this is more a theological term, than a juridical one.

[url]http://lexicorient.com/e.o/dhimmi.htm[/url]

#682963Post 69 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Yes so its not Dhimmi as you said in the first post , but JIZYAH as I explained to you , I just understood that you thought AHL AL DHIMMA (which means people with faith) is the actual JYZIAHJ until I explained to you and you did your own research after that , dave go back to politics and forget about Islam , when you need a lesson I am here. Vive la resistance

#682964Post 70 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote][B]Dhimmis have limited autonomy[/B], but full rights to practice their religion and are assured full protection by the rulers. [B]Earlier there was a specific tax, jizya [/B]( Koran 9,29), that Dhimmis had to pay to receive these benefits. [B]Dhimmis who did not pay this tax, either had to convert to Islam or face the death penalty[/B][B]. This tax, higher than the tax Muslims had to pay[/B], was on several occasions one of the most important sources of income for the rulers, and, therefore, they were often little inclined to encourage conversion to Islam, as this would represent a decrease in their income.[/quote] Some protection you talked about earlier. That jizya tax sounds absolutly great!

And BTW my research is done PRIOR to posting responses to you or anyone else.

#683062Post 71 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

sono, stop posting, you are ignoring facts. i needed to tell you that. im not getting into it anytime soon.

bululu, you are based in fact moreso, but you show heavy anti isreali bias, but all your arguements, can and would lead to a logical response of isreali action. you claim they take over farms violently, but it was the groups who came in during the invasions of the early part of the 7th and 8th centuries who violently kicked out the jews to begin with.

#683063Post 72 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

all it seems that you want, is a sudden ceasefire and pullout, which will only offer yet another year for the groups to re arm.

#683349Post 73 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=thesightless]but it was the groups who came in during the invasions of the early part of the 7th and 8th centuries who violently kicked out the jews to begin with.[/quote]So in that perspective it would be ok if native americans started shelling the White House?

What happened in the 7/8th century doesn't have much relevance imo.

#683352Post 74 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=davetlv]Bwahahahahahahahahah information clearing house. Interesting choice of reading there dig. Don't give up your day job now will you.

Whilst i believe in the concept, as stated here time and time again, that we need to read as much as we can before we make up our own minds, we also need to ensure that what we're reading is credible. Next you'll be quoting from Counterpunch and James Bamford :roll: :roll:[/quote]

Laugh all you want Dave it won't change a thing, Informationclearinghouse is a great source of information. Articles and videos are put up on this site from all media across the world. From Israel, Middle East, Asia , the US, Australia, oh yes and Iran aswell.

Bact to the earlier post, UN res 425 called for the immediate withdrawl of the israeli forces out of Lebanon back in 1978, not only did the israeli forces not leave Southern Lebanon but they went on there murderous ways and occupied Beirut. The resistance by groups such as Hezboallah were the only reason why the israeli forces left in 2000 other wise the'd most certainly still be there.

It is absolutely pathetic and almost laughable to now here the israelis cry fowl when Hezboallah won't head to UN res 1559.

I urge anyone on this site to visit information [URL="http://www.clearinghouse.com"][COLOR=black]www.clearinghouse.com[/COLOR][/URL] and source some heap of great information from all over the world about the past and current crisis in the Middle East and all around the globe.

There's a great piece by John Pilger called 'Palestine is still the issue'.

#683367Post 75 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

[quote=KinKyJ]So in that perspective it would be ok if native americans started shelling the White House?

What happened in the 7/8th century doesn't have much relevance imo.[/quote]

if we were to apply the reasoning that they are fighting for something that was taken, then yes. not my opinion, just pointing out flawed, one sided logic that ppl use to come to irrelevant conclusions. if you are going to do that, make sure you say its ur poinoin, NOT FACT (not aimed at u fucko, tell erzina i want my socks back)

ppl keep using the reasoning that hezz and hamas are fighting for something that was taken from them, that point is bunk, because they took it first. therefore, the jews are taking back what was taken from them.

#683383Post 76 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Dig

Palestine stopped being the issue when the Arabs cared more about the death of Israelis then in creating a Palestinie State.

Enjoy Pilger, the twat!

#683498Post 77 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

Throughout this now 16-day-old war, Israeli planes high above civilian areas make decisions on what to bomb. They send huge bombs capable of killing things for hundreds of meters around their targets, and then blame the inevitable civilian deaths -- the Lebanese government says 600 civilians have been killed so far -- on "terrorists" who callously use the civilian infrastructure for protection.

But this claim is almost always false. Hezbollah fighters -- as opposed to the much more numerous Hezbollah political members, and the vastly more numerous Hezbollah sympathizers -- avoid civilians. Much smarter and better trained than the PLO and Hamas fighters, they know that if they mingle with civilians, they will sooner or later be betrayed by collaborators -- as so many Palestinian militants have been.

For their part, the Israelis seem to think that if they keep pounding civilians, they'll get some fighters, too. The almost nightly airstrikes on the southern suburbs of Beirut could be seen as making some sense, as the Israelis appear convinced there are command and control bunkers underneath the continually smoldering rubble. There were some civilian casualties the first few nights in places like Haret Hreik, but people quickly left the area to the Hezbollah fighters with their radios and motorbikes.

But other attacks seem gratuitous, fishing expeditions, or simply intended to punish anything and anyone even vaguely connected to Hezbollah. Lighthouses, grain elevators, milk factories, bridges in the north used by refugees, apartment buildings partially occupied by members of Hezbollah's political wing -- all have been reduced to rubble.

In the south, where Shiites dominate, just about everyone supports Hezbollah. Does mere support for Hezbollah, or even participation in Hezbollah activities, mean your house and family are fair game? Do you need to fire rockets from your front yard? Or is it enough to be a political activist?

The Israelis are consistent: They bomb everyone and everything remotely associated with Hezbollah, including noncombatants. In effect, that means punishing Lebanon. The nation is 40 percent Shiite, and of that 40 percent, tens of thousands are employed by Hezbollah's social services, political operations, schools, and other nonmilitary functions. The "terrorist" organization Hezbollah is Lebanon's second-biggest employer.

Although Israel targets apartments and offices because they are considered "Hezbollah" installations, the group has a clear policy of keeping its fighters away from civilians as much as possible. This is not for humanitarian reasons but for military ones.

"You can be a member of Hezbollah your entire life and never see a military wing fighter with a weapon," a Lebanese military intelligence official once said. "They do not come out with their masks off and never operate around people if they can avoid it. They're completely afraid of collaborators. They know this is what breaks the Palestinians -- no discipline and too much showing off."

Hezbollah guys, on the other hand, know that letting their fighters near outsiders of any kind -- journalists or Lebanese, even Hezbollah supporters -- is stupid.

Hezbollah's political members say they have little or no access to the workings of the fighters. This seems to be largely true: While they obviously hear and know more than the outside world, the firewall is strong.

Israel, however, has chosen to treat the political members of Hezbollah as if they were fighters. And by targeting the civilian wing of the group, which supplies much of the humanitarian aid and social protection for the poorest people in the south, they are targeting civilians.

So the analysts talking on cable news about Hezbollah "hiding within the civilian population" clearly have spent little time if any in the south Lebanon war zone and don't know what they're talking about. Hezbollah doesn't trust the civilian population and has worked very hard to evacuate as much of it as possible from the battlefield. And this is why they fight so well -- with no one to spy on them, they have lots of chances to take the Israel Defense Forces by surprise, as they have by continuing to fire rockets and punish every Israeli ground incursion.

And the civilians? They see themselves as targeted regardless of their affiliation. They are enraged at Israel and at the United States, the only two countries on earth not calling for an immediate cease-fire. Lebanese of all persuasions think the United States and Israel believe that Lebanese lives are cheaper than Israeli ones. And many are now saying that they want to fight.

#683632Post 78 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

^^^ Why don't you take your little yellow flag and go wave it in Qana eh?

#684178Post 79 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

it never belonged to them....immorally given to them..at the expense of innocent civilians....they are such a paranoid people...i dont blame the intensity of dave..but it seems like he doesnt want to reflect...just make the other person look stoopid...there are a bunch of people you seem to have to reply to dave...maybe thats a sign...maybe you should stop to think....the deeply ingrained paranoia inhibts this reflective process...you know you talk shit..its ok..we all talk shit some times.... like dig was saying its like you have to justify what you do and continue even though its fuked and you know it..stop quoting these sound bytes that the mainstream media feeds you...most stations and papers even in australia and else where are owned by people with political agendas..this should not be a surprise to anyone reading.. you guys know this..so stop picking on bullshit to support your bullshit..it just becomes a bigger pile of stinky fukin bullshit....israel is wrong no matter what...they will pay..thier shortsightedness or sightlessness will lead to thier demise.... the new hizbullah barrage of 200 is wrong too...but good to know only one dead...one died in palestine too but about 160 since they re occupied in july (just repeating news)...invaders galore...pinch and pillage..anyone heard the song...

#684187Post 80 of 151

Re: 16 civilians and 20 soldiers..vs. 357 officially killed

theres a page six....dam nit..

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