Re: Israel & Lebanon

EDITED

I mis-understood the above comment

Re: Israel & Lebanon

[quote=DancingQueen]Well that is really ignorant :evil:

My friends bf has been stuck over there in the middle of this and you have to go and say something insensitive like that...give your head a shake.[/quote]

what do you expect from someone named thesightless :p

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broadie sweetie. i was referring to our recently banned idiot and a few others in this post who seem to support the murdering of innocents by militants.

i have friends over there too. and a very good friend of mine named tamara has her parents living outside of haifa. luckly, they were here in NY visiting her for her wedding anniversary.

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[quote=DancingQueen]Well that is really ignorant :evil:

My friends bf has been stuck over there in the middle of this and you have to go and say something insensitive like that...give your head a shake.[/quote]Ermmm Karen honey, Sean was refering to this retard:

[quote=yggdrasil]An absolute disgrace, yet the whole world is turning a blind eye. until Israel starts respecting its neighbours, stops killing innocent people and stops occupying countries, you can go stick your holocaust up your jewish asses.[/quote]

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thanks kinky.

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my apologies then....I just assumed it was towards me as it was right under my post. I hope the people you know over there are safe as well

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[quote=DancingQueen]my apologies then....I just assumed it was towards me as it was right under my post.[/quote]I'm sure you have a terrific ass Karen, but the equator doesn't run through it :p;);)

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^^^ well most ppl quote what they are attacking unless it is directly below the comment, which in this case it wasn't near the comment

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no, i was just calling a douchbag out. god i hope that kid gets into a car accident, and wakes up in a hospital with a hasidic doctor standing over him saying "boy you really should thank rabbi horowitz for the 2 pints of blood he gave you. i had a lot of hard work, but i saved your life. shalom''

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[quote=DancingQueen]^^^ well most ppl quote what they are attacking unless it is directly below the comment, which in this case it wasn't near the comment[/quote]You're so easy to tick off, you know? :lol: [/off topic]

[quote=thesightless]no, i was just calling a douchbag out. god i hope that kid gets into a car accident, and wakes up in a hospital with a hasidic doctor standing over him saying "boy you really should thank rabbi horowitz for the 2 pints of blood he gave you. i had a lot of hard work, but i saved your life. shalom''[/quote]LMAOOOOO mazeltov!!!

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[QUOTE=DancingQueen]If anyone is interested to hear how it really is over there from someone who is actually living it atm, read the blog below from the bottom up.

He is dating a friend of mine and was over visiting family with his father....pretty intense reading about it. Everyone is hoping for his safe return

[url]http://karimhamasni.blogspot.com/[/url][/QUOTE]

very interesting, thanks

Re: Israel & Lebanon

[quote=DancingQueen]If anyone is interested to hear how it really is over there from someone who is actually living it atm, read the blog below from the bottom up.

He is dating a friend of mine and was over visiting family with his father....pretty intense reading about it. Everyone is hoping for his safe return

[URL="http://karimhamasni.blogspot.com/"]http://karimhamasni.blogspot.com/[/URL][/quote]

Interesting read Karen. You should probably post this in the other thread going on in GYY for the people who don't visit the politics section. Really insightful.

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A great write up by Ury Avnery.

[B][SIZE=4][COLOR=#161614]The Real Aim[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B] 15-7-2006

THE REAL aim is to change the regime in Lebanon and to install a puppet government.

That was the aim of Ariel Sharon's invasion of Lebanon in 1982. It failed. But Sharon and his pupils in the military and political leadership have never really given up on it.

As in 1982, the present operation, too, was planned and is being carried out in full coordination with the US.

As then, there is no doubt that it is coordinated with a part of the Lebanese elite. That's the main thing. Everything else is noise and propaganda. ON THE eve of the 1982 invasion, Secretary of State Alexander Haig told Ariel Sharon that, before starting it, it was necessary to have a "clear provocation", which would be accepted by the world. The provocation indeed took place - exactly at the appropriate time - when Abu-Nidal's terror gang tried to assassinate the Israeli ambassador in London. This had no connection with Lebanon, and even less with the PLO (the enemy of Abu-Nidal), but it served its purpose. This time, the necessary provocation has been provided by the capture of the two Israeli soldiers by Hizbullah. Everyone knows that they cannot be freed except through an exchange of prisoners. But the huge military campaign that has been ready to go for months was sold to the Israeli and international public as a rescue operation. (Strangely enough, the very same thing happened two weeks earlier in the Gaza Strip. Hamas and its partners captured a soldier, which provided the excuse for a massive operation that had been prepared for a long time and whose aim is to destroy the Palestinian government.) THE DECLARED aim of the Lebanon operation is to push Hizbullah away from the border, so as to make it impossible for them to capture more soldiers and to launch rockets at Israeli towns. The invasion of the Gaza strip is also officially aimed at getting Ashkelon and Sderot out of the range of the Qassams. That resembles the 1982 "Operation Peace for Gallilee". Then, the public and the Knesset were told that the aim of the war was to "push the Katyushas 40 km away from the border". That was a deliberate lie. For 11 months before the war, not a single Katyusha rocket (nor a single shot) had been fired over the border. From the beginning, the aim of the operation was to reach Beirut and install a Quisling dictator. As I have recounted more than once, Sharon himself told me so nine months before the war, and I duly published it at the time, with his consent (but unattributed). Of course, the present operation also has several secondary aims, which do not include the freeing of the prisoners. Everybody understands that that cannot be achieved by military means. But it is probably possible to destroy some of the thousands of missiles that Hizbullah has accumulated over the years. For this end, the army chiefs are ready to endanger the inhabitants of the Israeli towns that are exposed to the rockets. They believe that that is worthwhile, like an exchange of chess figures. Another secondary aim is to rehabilitate the "deterrent power" of the army. That is a codeword for the restoration of the army's injured pride that has suffered a severe blow from the daring military actions of Hamas in the south and Hizbullah in the north. OFFICIALLY, THE Israeli government demands that the Government of Lebanon disarm Hizbullah and remove it from the border region. That is clearly impossible under the present Lebanese regime, a delicate fabric of ethno-religious communities. The slightest shock can bring the whole structure crashing down and throw the state into total anarchy - especially after the Americans succeeded in driving out the Syrian army, the only element that has for years provided some stability. The idea of installing a Quisling in Lebanon is nothing new. In 1955, David Ben-Gurion proposed taking a "Christian officer" and installing him as dictator. Moshe Sharet showed that this idea was based on complete ignorance of Lebanese affairs and torpedoed it. But 27 years later, Ariel Sharon tried to put it into effect nevertheless. Bashir Gemayel was indeed installed as president, only to be murdered soon afterwards. His brother, Amin, succeeded him and signed a peace agreement with Israel, but was driven out of office. (The same brother is now publicly supporting the Israeli operation.) The calculation now is that if the Israeli Air Force rains heavy enough blows on the Lebanese population - paralysing the sea- and airports, destroying the infrastructure, bombarding residential neighborhoods, cutting the Beirut-Damascus highroad etc. - the public will get furious with Hizbullah and pressure the Lebanese government into fulfilling Israel's demands. Since the present government cannot even dream of doing so, a dictatorship will be set up with Israel's support. That is the military logic. I have my doubts. It can be assumed that most Lebanese will react as any other people on earth would: with fury and hatred towards the invader. That happened in 1982, when the Shiites in the south of Lebanon, until then as docile as a doormat, stood up against the Israeli occupiers and created the Hizbullah, which has become the strongest force in the country. If the Lebanese elite now becomes tainted as collaborators with Israel, it will be swept off the map. (By the way, have the Qassams and Katyushas caused the Israeli population to exert pressure on our government to give up? Quite the contrary.) The American policy is full of contradictions. President Bush wants "regime change" in the Middle East, but the present Lebanese regime has only recently been set up by under American pressure. In the meantime, Bush has succeeded only in breaking up Iraq and causing a civil war (as foretold here). He may get the same in Lebanon, if he does not stop the Israeli army in time. Moreover, a devastating blow against Hizbullah may arouse fury not only in Iran, but also among the Shiites in Iraq, on whose support all of Bush's plans for a pro-American regime are built. So what's the answer? Not by accident, Hizbullah has carried out its soldier-snatching raid at a time when the Palestinians are crying out for succor. The Palestinian cause is popular all over the Arab word. By showing that they are a friend in need, when all other Arabs are failing dismally, Hizbullah hopes to increase its popularity. If an Israeli-Palestinian agreement had been achieved by now, Hizbullah would be no more than a local Lebanese phenomenon, irrelevant to our situation. LESS THAN three months after its formation, the Olmert-Peretz government has succeeded in plunging Israel into a two-front war, whose aims are unrealistic and whose results cannot be foreseen. If Olmert hopes to be seen as Mister Macho-Macho, a Sharon # 2, he will be disappointed. The same goes for the desperate attempts of Peretz to be taken seriously as an imposing Mister Security. Everybody understands that this campaign - both in Gaza and in Lebanon - has been planned by the army and dictated by the army. The man who makes the decisions in Israel now is Dan Halutz. It is no accident that the job in Lebanon has been turned over to the Air Force. The public is not enthusiastic about the war. It is resigned to it, in stoic fatalism, because it is being told that there is no alternative. And indeed, who can be against it? Who does not want to liberate the "kidnapped soldiers"? Who does not want to remove the Katyushas and rehabilitate deterrence? No politician dares to criticize the operation (except the Arab MKs, who are ignored by the Jewish public). In the media, the generals reign supreme, and not only those in uniform. There is almost no former general who is not being invited by the media to comment, explain and justify, all speaking in one voice. (As an illustration: Israel's most popular TV channel invited me to an interview about the war, after hearing that I had taken part in an anti-war demonstration. I was quite surprised. But not for long - an hour before the broadcast, an apologetic talk-show host called and said that there had been a terrible mistake - they really meant to invite Professor Shlomo Avineri, a former Director General of the Foreign Office who can be counted on to justify any act of the government, whatever it may be, in lofty academic language.) "Inter arma silent Musae" - when the weapons speak, the muses fall silent. Or, rather: when the guns roar, the brain ceases to function. AND JUST a small thought: when the State of Israel was founded in the middle of a cruel war, a poster was plastered on the walls: "All the country - a front! All the people - an army!" 58 Years have passed, and the same slogan is still as valid as it was then. What does that say about generations of statesmen and generals?

As mentioned earlier on in Ury's article, military operations take a while to plan, which is why from the very beginning most people knew this invasion of Lebanon was not the cause of kidnapped israeli soldiers as stated over and over in the media.

People are fed up wars and mindless killings and will not tolerate it anymore. The internet has allowed individuals throughout the whole world to search for their own sources of information/news and avoid the force feeding of rubbish which big media calls news, down our throats.

"We are not attacking the Lebanese government". These sorts of remarks really do defy logic and the worst part of it is, it was made by ehud barak an ex israeli priminister.

This mind set of an ex israeli priminister is very disturbing and made many of my friends watching the show think WTF, how can this guy get on national television and unashamedly spew such rubbish and expect people to swallow it? Is this guy delusional or is he really trying to insult those with any thought capacity?

Below is a link to the transcript of the interview.

[URL="http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1690079.htm"]http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2006/s1690079.htm[/URL]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Following Uri Avnery's perspective will lead to the end of the state of Israel and Jews living in Dhimitude here, if at all.

His extreme left wing vision for Israel isn't even shared by 10% of the population, for we know where his vision will lead.

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[quote=davetlv]Following Uri Avnery's perspective will lead to the end of the state of Israel and Jews living in Dhimitude here, if at all.

His extreme left wing vision for Israel isn't even shared by 10% of the population, for we know where his vision will lead.[/quote]

Let's say his views are shared by 9% of the population, that's close to 570,000 thousand citizens, not something to be sneezed at, considering the whole population of israel numbers approx 6.3 million.

Besides, it does become difficult for many to just simply ignore the comments and thoughts of a man who was an israeli soldier and member of the knessett simply because the majority of the population don't like his views.

His vision it appears is, a vision for peace, fairness and equality amongst Palestinians and Israelis. Is that so bad?

Sure, many israelis might not like the dirty laundry that he may air about israel and it's actions, but that doesn't mean that what he has to say is in any way false or incorrect. Actually pretty much what he says is incredibly accurate and can be backed up with his personal experience, connections, his obvious wealth of knowledge and documents ect,ect.

Mr Avnery is israels verion of Gore Vidal. Put simply, their views cannot be ignored.

I really urge anyone who has any interest in the Middle East conflicts to visit his website and have a read through some of his articles/documents and papers with some going back to 1998. You will get some israeli perspective which challenges and corrects much of the misinformation that gets dished out by our gutless and shameless media/news networks.

Very, very informative.

[URL="http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/"]http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/avnery/[/URL]

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Avnery's vision for Israel will lead to the destruciton of the state of Isreal. He has ignored the constant shelling of southern towns since the disengagement, and he has never spoken out against Hizbollah attack in the north which have intensified since Israel withdrew from Lebanon in 2000, let alone the 1600 rockets that have rained down on Israeli settlements in the north.

Avnery is to Israel what George Galloway is to the UK.

Dig, there are others on the left which look at the causes and remedies to the Palestinian/Israel issue which will allow for a two state solution as opposed to Jews living in Dhimitude.

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Thanks alot dig72 for the last two posts , I will be visting the link you gave, but until then murder and destruction is still conituing and not a f&*()ing single country dare to open their mouth , thanks for the backing my BUSH.

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As a counterpoint to the other article: [URL="http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-07-16-1.html"]http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2006-07-16-1.html[/URL]

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Was reading your article Nathan and just stopped at this sentence to show how credible is your article. I'll copy and paste only since I don't know how to do it otherwise.

From the title [B]The Next Election[/B]

[B]As for Clinton ... don't make me laugh. [/B][B]George W. Bush is called dumb, but he's smarter than any of his immediate predecessors, because he understands that when your enemy has no scruples, has no vital interests to protect, and desires war, it is absurd to wait for them to get stronger and more dangerous.[/B]

wake up man the whole fucking world knows that he is a moron, what he did in Iraq was wrong and what he is doing by protecting Isreal not to be blamed is worng also.But the United states has the power so no one dares to say a single word..

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[quote=Bululu]

wake up man the whole fucking world knows that he is a moron, what he did in Iraq was wrong and what he is doing by protecting Isreal not to be blamed is worng also.[/quote]

Is there a logic behind that, or just moralising? Not trying to diss, just wondering where it's "wrong" to right an error that the UN should have handled in 1991 and where it's "wrong" for a sovereign nation to unleash Hell on another nation that harbors murderers and scum because they're too frightened to police themselves, even if those same murderers and scum use that nation's own populace as a shield against retribution while they commit actions that are condemned by any sort of civilized society. In my head, that's akin to having a serial rapist/cannibal living in your walls, going to and fro at will seeking whom they may violate and devour, and you're wondering why there's a SWAT team with a battering ram at your door.

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[quote=Nathan McWaters]Is there a logic behind that, or just moralising? Not trying to diss, just wondering where it's "wrong" to right an error that the UN should have handled in 1991 and where it's "wrong" for a sovereign nation to unleash Hell on another nation that harbors murderers and scum because they're too frightened to police themselves, even if those same murderers and scum use that nation's own populace as a shield against retribution while they commit actions that are condemned by any sort of civilized society. In my head, that's akin to having a serial rapist/cannibal living in your walls, going to and fro at will seeking whom they may violate and devour, and you're wondering why there's a SWAT team with a battering ram at your door.[/quote]

The article is a rant by a man who writes science fiction and fantasy novels. This is also the same man who believes bush to be the most moderate, thoughtful, rational, and responsible president since dwight d. eisenhower.

In his tirade he goes on to say that, " Lebanese people who are [I]not[/I] Shiite are fed up with Hezbollah."

Has orson scott ever been to Lebanon or lived/worked with the Lebanese people to backup such statement?

This stooge goes on to say that, bush's war has been so close to bloodless that most americans are barely aware they're at war.

I wonder why that is?

This artical is the usual dribble/propaganda that we hear from our "news" all the time and offers nothing for those in search of credible information/understanding.

I'm sorry to say, but this article is actually quite insulting.

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i just wanna know if israel asked lebanon for permision to go into lebanese territory and erradicate hizbullah .. witch seems to me the right thing to do ... if not the incursion of israel could be taken as an act of war

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[quote=M€M]i just wanna know if israel asked lebanon for permision to go into lebanese territory and erradicate hizbullah[/quote]

Yeah, I'm sure the Lebanese government did accept israels offer for the planned and deliberate murder/destruction of it's it's citizens and country. Heck the Lebanese government even went one step further and actually gave the israeli forces the exact location of the Hezboallah fighters, locations such as, international airports, bridges, main roads/highways, mosques, warehouses, factories, trucks, Red Cross Ambulances, Lebanon's ports, economy, communications tourism industry, residential homes/buildings and inside the motor vehicles of fleeing terrified men, woman and children. The lebanese government has even invited the terrorists to invade it's southern borders and occupy villages.

But we know now that the locations were obvioulsy wrong, because of the 400+ civilians murdered, mostly young children including many more injured by these israeli armed terrorists, that only a handful have been indentified as Hezboallah fighters.

The attacks on Lebanon and all it's civilians are an act committed by terrorist.

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[quote=dig72]The article is a rant by a man who writes science fiction and fantasy novels. This is also the same man who believes bush to be the most moderate, thoughtful, rational, and responsible president since dwight d. eisenhower.[/quote]

And that disqualifies someone from making a statement, how? Dave Matthews and half of Hollywood do this on a regular basis. Are they any more qualified when they write articles in [i]Rolling Stone[/i] saying that we've failed in Iraq and should pull out?

[quote]In his tirade he goes on to say that, " Lebanese people who are [I]not[/I] Shiite are fed up with Hezbollah."

Has orson scott ever been to Lebanon or lived/worked with the Lebanese people to backup such statement?[/quote]

Ask him. Or ask someone who has.

[quote]This stooge goes on to say that, bush's war has been so close to bloodless that most americans are barely aware they're at war.

I wonder why that is?[/quote]

Because in comparison to every other war the American military has participated in since the turn of the 20th Century, it has been relatively bloodless. Just under 2,600 KIA over a five year period is a very light rate of loss in military terms. There hasn't been a massive military output of manpower or material effecting all sectors of the US economy akin to the World Wars, there hasn't been the scurrying unpreparedness and last ditch responses in the face of overwhelming enemy numbers of the Korean comflict, nor the seemingly endless attempt to fight a "war" without invading another nation (and cheating at that from time to time) while enduring seditious uprisings at home a'la Vietnam. Aside from filling countless mHz of Internet bandwidth and fanning all sorts of idealistic flames, the Iraq war has had very little direct impact on the average American life [i]since[/i] 9/11, when compared to other major conflicts. The rest of the Coalition may not agree, as their own histories dictate different responses to enduring military loss of life, and I can't speak for them, but from the standpoint of a US military veteran of the Iraq campaign, I've got a little bit of voice to involve.

"Stooge" is perhaps too strong a term. If anything, Mr. Card's primary loyalty lies with the Church of Latter-Day Saints, for whom he did missionary work in the '80s. I don't think he's a big fan of anyone's government, much less a Republican one.

[quote]This artical is the usual dribble/propaganda that we hear from our "news" all the time and offers nothing for those in search of credible information/understanding. [/quote]

Whose news? Australia's, or America's? As for credibility and research, why is it that people are so keen to accept the word of a famous name who's never seen or done anything like what they're speaking of, and blow off the words of people that were or are there? Rule #1 of research: never take the face value of secondhand sources as doctrine when a firsthand source is available. This isn't to say that Mr. Card is right or wrong (though having endured the the Cold War during the decades of appeasement, in my mind he does have a point), just that it's two-faced to automatically condemn someone's analysis when your own holds no stronger ground due to the same circumstance you've used against them.

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[quote=Nathan McWaters]Is there a logic behind that, or just moralising? Not trying to diss, just wondering where it's "wrong" to right an error that the UN should have handled in 1991 and where it's "wrong" for a sovereign nation to unleash Hell on another nation that harbors murderers and scum because they're too frightened to police themselves, even if those same murderers and scum use that nation's own populace as a shield against retribution while they commit actions that are condemned by any sort of civilized society. In my head, that's akin to having a serial rapist/cannibal living in your walls, going to and fro at will seeking whom they may violate and devour, and you're wondering why there's a SWAT team with a battering ram at your door.[/quote]

Amen. WHat fucking respectable country on this earth would allow two of it's soliders to be captured, six others murdered and it's border towns to be completely shelled by rockets without doing anything about it? some of you people claiming isreal is over reacting need to think about this again. :shock:

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[B]When two Israeli soldier are kidnapped, the whole world goes crazy, but Israel kidnapped a whole nation[/B] .

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Hey Bululu, to focus this on just two kidnapped soldiers in wrong. . . this is about the shelling of a northern settlement, which led to a hizbollah amush ON ISRAELI TERRITORY, the murder of 8 Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 others.

There has always been a clear end to this. . . let me know which part is difficult for you?

1. Implementation of Res 1559 - which included the dis-arming of a terrorist organisation by the name of Hizbollah and the re-activation of Lenabons army in Southern Lebanon to ensure that Hizbollah do not return

2. The return of our two IDF soldiers who were abducted on soverign Israeli territory.

The moment that happens and Israeli ceases its defensive measures against Hizbollah.

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davetlv you know very well that if Isreal continues like this fear will always be in that region, Isrealis will continue fearing the arabs ( attacking and ruining more and more their international image) and it is dividing the Isreali society , 5000 people protested yesterday in Tel Aviv against this dirty war. what UN resolutions are you talking about , you know more than me that they can't do jack shit ,the first thing they would start doing is stopping your army from killing young childern and calling it surgical hits, 500 000 lebanese already are considered as refugees. You don't want Hizbullah to attack you and at the same you are holding 30 000 prisoners in your prisons , how can any one negotiate the release of prisoners with out any power.

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Bululu, UN Resolution 1559 passed in 2000 (i think), it brought an end to Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon as well as mandating the lebanese government to take control of Southern Lebanon and dis-arm Hizbollah.

Hizbollah regularly fire on Northern Israel and its about time this stopped, as set out in 1559

Your figure of 30,000 prisoners is nothing but cheap arab propaganda, do you know how many prisons we would need for that many prisoners. . . . i believe a more accurate number is 10,000. . . . .

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and lets say the figure of 30000 is cheap arab propaganda , and 10000 prisoners which means 10000 seperated familys is nothing for you sir ????? what Isreal is doing is trying to make the Lebanesse people especially the christians turn on Hizbullah , by destroying the infrastructure of the country which the chirstians and muslims built together, this way Hizbullah would be blamed and another chirstian Vs muslim war in Lebanon starts again like the exact one that is happening in Iraq right now , Sunni Vs Shiite. But in Lebanon I hope it won't happen because the Lebanesse people learned from the first invasion in 1982, I hope they did anyways.

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[quote] quote=Nathan McWaters And that disqualifies someone from making a statement, how? Dave Matthews and half of Hollywood do this on a regular basis. Are they any more qualified when they write articles in [I]Rolling Stone[/I] saying that we've failed in Iraq and should pull out? [/quote]

No Nathan, I called it dribble because alot of what he has to say is incorrect and unfounded.

card starts his rant with this, "I do hope that the readers of this column already know that no decent person could ever advocate that Israel negotiate with Hamas and Hezbollah or give in to their demands in the slightest in order to get their kidnapped soldiers back."

This comment is wrong, anyone with a tiny bit of history of this conflict would know that israel has in the past negotiated with Hezboallah, Hamas and will continue to do so in the future.

[quote] Ask him. Or ask someone who has.[/quote]

Unless card has conducted a survey which involved all Lebanese on their own views on Hezboallah, than I think it's fair to say that these comments are not just uninformed or unfounded but are also quite insulting.

Who does card think he is, speaking on behalf of all Lebanese?

What's that I hear? You would like me to ask card if he has done a survey?

Oh please.

[quote]Because in comparison to every other war the American military has participated in since the turn of the 20th Century, it has been relatively bloodless. Just under 2,600 KIA over a five year period is a very light rate of loss in military terms. There hasn't been a massive military output of manpower or material effecting all sectors of the US economy akin to the World Wars, there hasn't been the scurrying unpreparedness and last ditch responses in the face of overwhelming enemy numbers of the Korean comflict, nor the seemingly endless attempt to fight a "war" without invading another nation (and cheating at that from time to time) while enduring seditious uprisings at home a'la Vietnam. Aside from filling countless mHz of Internet bandwidth and fanning all sorts of idealistic flames, the Iraq war has had very little direct impact on the average American life [I]since[/I] 9/11, when compared to other major conflicts. The rest of the Coalition may not agree, as their own histories dictate different responses to enduring military loss of life, and I can't speak for them, but from the standpoint of a US military veteran of the Iraq campaign, I've got a little bit of voice to involve. [/quote]

What of the 200,000+ Iraqi men, woman, children who have been slaughtered or the unforgotten victims in Afghanistan. Or do we call this a "bloodless war" only because 2,600 us soldiers have been killed so far?

As usual cowards like card can call it a "bloodless war" simply because he is not on the receiving end of it all. I'm pretty sure he would change his tune if his own child, brother, sister, mother, father, wife became the victims of this "bloodless war."

[quote] "Stooge" is perhaps too strong a term. If anything, Mr. Card's primary loyalty lies with the Church of Latter-Day Saints, for whom he did missionary work in the '80s. I don't think he's a big fan of anyone's government, much less a Republican one.[/quote]

Well I guess going to Church didn't do him much good.

Where is his compassion, concern for the slaughter of the hundreds of innocent civilians, many whom are children? Where are his calls for the immediate halt to the barbaric and unjust terrorist actions unleashed on an innocent peoples who just want to live in peace? Where are his concerns for the thousands made homeless/refugees because of this sensless act?

card the warmonger goes on to suggest that if you vote against the terrorist actions of bush & co, that you're an appeaser. How pathetic.

[quote] Whose news? Australia's, or America's? As for credibility and research, why is it that people are so keen to accept the word of a famous name who's never seen or done anything like what they're speaking of, and blow off the words of people that were or are there? Rule #1 of research: never take the face value of secondhand sources as doctrine when a firsthand source is available. This isn't to say that Mr. Card is right or wrong (though having endured the the Cold War during the decades of appeasement, in my mind he does have a point), just that it's two-faced to automatically condemn someone's analysis when your own holds no stronger ground due to the same circumstance you've used against them.[/quote]

Everyone in entitled to their own opinions, all I've done is highlighted some things that are incorrect or unfounded in his article. It actually has heaps more rubbish and usual propaganda in it but I chose not to waste anymore time trying to highlight them all.

Nathan, if you are happy with the opinions of this man and find his views interesting or even informative than good for you.

I've given card some of my precious time and have come to the not too difficult decision and that is to try my very best in future to avoid ever having to read any of the pro terrorist propaganda that this stooge so proudly spews.

I'll leave you with the most recent article by a man who actually lives amongst this war torn region and someone who knows what he is talking about.

[URL="http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html"]http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html[/URL]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

[quote=davetlv]Hey Bululu, to focus this on just two kidnapped soldiers in wrong. . . this is about the shelling of a northern settlement, which led to a hizbollah amush ON ISRAELI TERRITORY, the murder of 8 Israeli soldiers and the kidnapping of 2 others.

There has always been a clear end to this. . . let me know which part is difficult for you?

1. Implementation of Res 1559 - which included the dis-arming of a terrorist organisation by the name of Hizbollah and the re-activation of Lenabons army in Southern Lebanon to ensure that Hizbollah do not return

2. The return of our two IDF soldiers who were abducted on soverign Israeli territory.

The moment that happens and Israeli ceases its defensive measures against Hizbollah.[/quote]

read this article ... [URL="http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html"]http://www.avnery-news.co.il/english/index.html[/URL]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

Avnery would be far happier living in state controlled by both Hamas and Hizbollah. . . . he's the male equivilant to Amira Haas. . . . a fringe voice which has very little support amongst the Israeli population for his way will lead to the destruction of the State of Isreal.

Re: Israel & Lebanon

good read... [url]http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/740949.html[/url]

Re: Israel & Lebanon

The israeli armed terrorists have knowingly hit a UN base in Lebanon killing 4 UN workers.

This is the second time folks, the first time was in 1996 when over over 100 civilians who were sheltering there were deliberately slaughtered by these criminals.

[URL="http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=117191"][COLOR=#cc6600]http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=117191[/COLOR][/URL]

When is the world going to say enough is enough of this israeli armed terrorism and it's evil actions?

Re: Israel & Lebanon

^^^^^ dig these are surgical precise attcks against hizbullah terrorists hidding inside the UN base, don't you know that???

Re: Israel & Lebanon

[quote=dig72] This is the second time folks, the first time was in 1996 when over over 100 civilians who were sheltering there were deliberately slaughtered by these criminals. [/quote]

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Re: Israel & Lebanon

[quote=davetlv]:roll: :roll: :roll:[/quote]How are you going to roll your eyes to this David? (crosspost from GYY)

... taken from Human Rights Watch / Handicap International (yeah yeah, string puppets of Hezbollah and what not [/sarcasm]):

[B]Israeli Cluster Munitions Hit Civilians in Lebanon [/B]

[B]Israel Must Not Use Indiscriminate Weapons [/B]

(Beirut, July 24, 2006) – Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

[URL="http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery6.jpg"][URL="http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery6.jpg"][IMG]http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery6.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/URL]

[URL="http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery3.jpg"][URL="http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery3.jpg"][IMG]http://www.hrw.org/images/pressers/photos/fullsize/artillery3.jpg[/IMG][/URL][/URL]

Full story: [URL="http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm"]http://www.hrw.org/english/docs/2006/07/24/isrlpa13798.htm[/URL]

Demonstration, A10 dropping cluster bombs: [URL="http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194859427219358910&q=cluster+bomb"]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4194859427219358910&q=cluster+bomb[/URL]

Now the REALLY cool thing about cluster bombs is that +/- 15% of the little bombs doesn't explode right away. Some can stay dormant for years and then (when you accidentally hit them with something) go off and blow you to... Well, see for yourself: [URL="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URzQNby8nII&search=cluster%20bomb"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URzQNby8nII&search=cluster%20bomb[/URL] (Vietnamese guy of 24 who was accidentally killed by a left over cluster)

Who gives a toss right? I'm sure that the towelhead who will step on one of these things between now and say 2026 will be in one way or another related to Hezbollah... :roll:

And btw: [quote=davetlv]Here an interesring statistic for you.

2000 Sorties flown by the IAF - 229 civilians killed.

Thats something like 0.11 people killed per sortie. Whilst granted infrastructure is being demolished, the IAF and IDF is doing everything to minimalise human loss.[/quote] ... up until now...

Re: Israel & Lebanon

War a shit isn't kinky.

Like stuffing rockets full of nasty little add-ons and shoting them into to solely civillian areas. That would be wrong wouldnt it? Or hiding munitions amongst civillian population, or how about forcing people to stay in their homes as you use them as human shields?

Or how about setting and firing your launchers from an area 'controlled' by the UN. That would be wrong too, right?

You're certainly entitled to what every opinions you hold Kinky, even if you re misguided in them.

I note however, that you convienently forget to mention that all this could have been over with by now, or even that it never had to happen. . . .but why let truth and fact get in the way of view point right?

Re: Israel & Lebanon

^^^ Like the French say: les excuses sont faits pour s'enservir, les fous pour les croire. (excuses are made to use them, fools are made to believe them)

Ah wel David, at least you're admitting that these days there isn't any difference anymore between Hezbollah and the IDF/IAF ;)

Misguided.... uhum....