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Its funny how everyone reminds us that our troops are defending our country, how we should support them etc. but easily forget that many people DIED defending those rights your willing to hand back.

I wonder how the ultra conservatives will feel if Hillary was ever to end up in charge with these powers.

"If I'm not doing anything wrong why should I worry about it", thats such a flawed agrument. How about because it goes against the foundations of this country? How about because it throws the presumption of innocence out the window and assumes EVERYONE is guilty?

Let's take it a step further, why not put a video camera in your home? After all your not doing anything wrong, right? :roll:

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[QUOTE]"If I'm not doing anything wrong why should I worry about it", thats such a flawed agrument. How about because it goes against the foundations of this country? How about because it throws the presumption of innocence out the window and assumes EVERYONE is guilty?[/QUOTE]

gulity people have something to hide, non-guilty people have nothing to hide. Don't you watch Law & Order?

like I said. Sure laws are laws, and if you look at that way they are not breaking any laws. so what is the issue? Besides the whole big brother thing ... which has gone forever ... what is the problem?

National Security is at the apex of all laws. It over rides everything ... after 911 things are different, and they should be. Why should we allow something like that to occur again? So what if a few people get pissed off and the ACLU is bitching. Fuck them. If this action can save thousands of lifes ... I am not concerned if I am on some stupid list.

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the ACLU is slowly working on becoming the single most annoying organization outside of the greenpeace hippies.

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ACLU is bullshit ... but they are part of the check and balance system. I do not support them, but I will not state they are not needed.

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same here. they do some good things, but goddamn in the most annoying, bitchy manner possibile, and that doesnt help in most ppl's eyes.

edit

after all, they are group who filed suit to stop the lists of repeat sex offenders from being made public. they are the same people who filed suit to prevent the government from doubling fines for drug violations in school zones. they funded the defense for that female lawyer who was passing information from the convicted cleric to militant groups in egypt and saudi arabia...

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[quote=asdf_admin]gulity people have something to hide, non-guilty people have nothing to hide. [/quote]

Its not that simple. I was reminded of this when one of our Associate Technical Fellows did a presentation at a network planning forum. When we are in the process of aquiring another company he makes sure not to put things on his Outlook calendar so someone can't use the information for trading stock. Don't you think they have something to hide? Are they guilty of a crime?

Privacy != Criminal

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Yes, I do understand your comment. But if that calendar marking prevented human deaths or led into a prevention ... it would be no different. I understand the privacy issue, and yes I do not like it. On the other hand, if they asked me I would let them use any information they needed. You can not do that now in our time and age.

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The most galling thing about the ends-justifies-the-means arguement is that if we think back, there was pleanty of intel pointing to the what was going on and who was doing it. Where we failed was not seeing it due to information overload. The solution? Let's increase the infomation exponentially so we can do a better job next time. :roll:

Here's a fact: in a recent survey, employees in the Dept of Homeland Security have the lowest moral of any govn't agency. The survey also shows they believe their work is making a difference the least of any other agency.

One way to stop the government is to change the government. That means stop voting Republican across the board and get some balance back in our leadership.

Sean: [quote] "just praying hillary. kerry, and gore dont win. then shit will go downhill quicker than bush could ever pull off. " ??[/quote]

Never in my worst nightmares could I have imagined a bigger disaster of an administration that what we have now. Not even close. It kills me to see what has been done to my county. Almost as bad is that they have so many fooled into supporting it.

ANYBODY but Bush, in this case meaning whatever Rovian drone they have lined up to take his place.

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im with you, i dont like bush's seciurity, but he did a good job on the economy that bill fucked up, but never will i put a vote in for hillary, kerry, or gore. im not even thrilled about mccain. we need new blood. new parrties. the democrats and republicans are both wrong. neither party really does anything good. the democrats will piss on everyone to cater to one. and the republicans will piss on one to ""help"" everyone. and it isnt about voting republican or democrat, if anything, the founding fathers were so conservative they make todays parties look liberal. just find a person who isnt tied into the current ""in crowd"" and is honest. mccain can smile all he wants, and try to be honest, but he is the same thing as every other politician.

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[COLOR=silver]In an ideal world, yes of course, our political system has become bullshit. In the real world that we live in, Bush & Co (meaning the puppeteer who's hand is up Bush's ass, who will still be there after Bush's term has come and gone) must be stopped. [/COLOR] [COLOR=silver][/COLOR] [COLOR=silver]That means Democrat. We have to work within the constrains of the system so a vote for an independent is a wasted vote. If not these maniacs are going to get us all killed while eroding the last remaining bits of our freedom.[/COLOR]

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i cant in good conciousness vote for them in the forseeable future. there isnt a single member of that party, or either party for that matter, that i actually want to see in office. all the morons in cali keep voting that pelosi bitch into office and she hasnt done anything positive outside of disagreeing with the conservatives. and we are at fault for voting schumer in. just vote for someone else. the democrats cant get out of their own way and frankly, they are pretty much done for if guiliani wants in.

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the bankers rule the world anyways so who cares about the politicians.. they all suck.

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yup, maybe one day we can find a political group that is socially liberal, fiscally conservative, and take a hard stance on crime. oh yeah, they are libertarians and they dont get enough funding to promote themselves.

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I agree the Dems are like a monkey fucking a football, but gotta go with them on the basis that they aren't starting wars based on manufactored evidence, spying on us, leaking to the press, etc....

Bush fixed the economy? That's news to me... How much is this war costing and when do we start paying for it?

We only have the illusion of economic turn around because Americans are living off their savings and home equity. We are ignoring the reality of consumer debt and are busy spend spend spending which is keeping the economy afloat. It's a house of cards on a three legged table in a stiff breeze during an earthquake. Things slow down and along comes Bush with sweeping tax cuts putting a little more cash in our hand, but in reality pouring gas on the budget deficit fire.

To paraphase Warren Buffet (who was speaking about GM at the time), when you jump of the roof of a 50 story building, just because nothing has happened yet as you pass the 40th floor doesn't mean you don't have problems....

I do agree Guilian is a shoe in. He will just wrap himself in the flag and play the 9/11 card. I used to respect him, right up until he campaigned for W in just that fashion. Then I realized that he is just another cog in the GOP machine.

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[QUOTE=Kobe] To paraphase Warren Buffet (who was speaking about GM at the time), when you jump of the roof of a 50 story building, just because nothing has happened yet as you pass the 40th floor doesn't mean you don't have problems....[/QUOTE]

Nice!! :Bingo:

I love tax cuts. Love 'em. With that said, all this spending, spending, spending while decreasing the amount of tax revenue, i.e., what we use to offset that spending, just seems like financial suicide. Wish I could get away with that.

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Yeah, I've been trying that... not working. :|

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[quote=thesightless]they are pretty much done for if guiliani wants in.[/quote]

Nope, Guiliani won't get anywhere on the national level.