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taxes lead to the fighting, religion was the reason they moved here.

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I will tell you something, going to Independence Hall is a must for all Americans. Just to stand in that room and hear what those guys had to do so we would be a free country. To meet in secrecy and then hide and fight for your life simply to live as a free man. God Bless America!!!!!!!

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[QUOTE=thesightless] the potential bombs wont hit third rate cities like st louis, san diego, tampa. they come to NYC, boston, miami, DC, LA chicago....... [/QUOTE]

St. Louis is not a third-rate city. It is a second-rate city. Get it straight. :!:

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Second rate city with a first rate baseball team, get it straight!!

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until they get owned by an american league team.

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Touche.

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its the tigers year this year

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Too bad you're in the same division as the White Sox.

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Voluntary on whose part? The phone companies? There's talk of a massive class action suit being organized regarding this.

And as far as Cointelpro is concerned, it was started in 1956 and was secret until 1971. Perhaps you should check Wikipedia. Congress held hearings in the 70's and in the end blasted the program as an affront to democratic society.

Echelon is still in use by the NSA and has historically always only been intended for international communications. Now, granted, the US and UK spied on the others' citizens and traded the info so, yes in a sense you are right... but it's clear that it's only been since 9/11 that Bush has allowed Echelon to openly surveil American Citizens. And every time it was shown that it might have captured communications between American Citizens and people overseas Congress has responded with tighter scrutiny. Let's remember that the FISA court was created in order to make it easier for the NSA to conduct their business within our borders.

Again, you have to understand... I think the government should be analyzing some domestic phone calls... let's not forgot that those 9/11 bastards were moving freely around the country... but I want them to GET A FUCKING WARRANT FIRST.

That's what pisses me off.

Oh and the Patriot Act is a frightening piece of legislation and I'm pissed every time I think about all the Democratic Senators who signed that piece of shit. Way to hand over our civil liberties assholes.

And I don't really think this has anything to do with Hayden, though it doesn't help his cause... He WAS the architect of what the NSA after all... this shit storm would have happened even if he wasn't under consideration to head up the CIA.

But what this whole thing is exposing is a concentrated accumulation of power for the Executive Branch at the expense of the other 2 branches. Let's remember that Bush not only bypassed FISA... he also only briefed 8 members of Congress and then told them that because of the highly classified nature of the program they couldn't discuss it with their staff, their committees... no one... so, in a sense, Bush bypassed Congress as well as he created a scenario where proper oversight couldn't be done.

[quote=Jenks]Govt has no right?? Rich, heard of this little thing called [B]The Patriot Act[/B]? What the govt is doing with your phone records that are VOLUNTARILY turned over, is legal.

And as far as the doubt that phone conversations have been recorded in the past as far back as the 70's...check out COINTELPRO.. an op that basically gave the FBI, CIA and other government agencies carte blanche to listen, record, poop on, anything they wanted under the guise of national security and in the 1970s. This isn't new. This isn't Bush.

I'm not saying this whole thing isn't the dogs balls, i'm just saying, of all things to be getting pissy over with Bush, this isn't one of them, he's just picking up where predecessors left off. We have plenty of bullshit to blame Bush for, but to suddenly pick this topic up is pretty ridiculous when it's been going on for decades. And as pointed out before, how timely by the press, right as an unpopular military genreal was nominated for the top spot in our government's civilian spy agency.

I still want to make this clear tho- the bush administration sucks.[/quote]

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[QUOTE=djrichwoods] Again, you have to understand... I think the government should be analyzing some domestic phone calls... let's not forgot that those 9/11 bastards were moving freely around the country... but I want them to GET A FUCKING WARRANT FIRST.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Is there a judge in this country that would deny a warrant to conduct surveillance on a suspected terrorist? It's so easy, and yet they ignore the warrant requirement. Either they are incredibly lazy, or they're up to something. If you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just lazy, should we roll back the 4th amendment b/c Bush can't be bothered to run a warrant app by someone?

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From another site (sorry couldn't resist):

[quote]I've come up with a way to reduce?perhaps even eliminate?our dependence on foreign oil as an energy source.

As more and more civil liberties are trampled upon, faster and faster will the Founding Fathers spin in their respective graves.

If we attach magnets to each Founding Father, then wrap copper wire around each of them, we should have a potentially unlimited energy source. Well, at least until the Libertarians get elected in significant numbers?so yeah, come to think of it, it truly is unlimited.

The AC frequency, of course, might be unpredictable. In fact, I'd suspect it will be ever-increasing, which could create some technical issues to overcome. But we're smart people, I'm sure we can figure it out.

What do you all say? Shall we write up a grant proposal?[/quote]

:Laugh::CrackUp:

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[quote=toasty]Exactly. Is there a judge in this country that would deny a warrant to conduct surveillance on a suspected terrorist? It's so easy, and yet they ignore the warrant requirement. Either they are incredibly lazy, or they're up to something. If you give them the benefit of the doubt and assume that they're just lazy, should we roll back the 4th amendment b/c Bush can't be bothered to run a warrant app by someone?[/quote]

there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer.

PS, for that beer, it is only available in FT Lauderdale :roll:

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[QUOTE=speciale]there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer.[/QUOTE]

I've already had more than a day, and you owe me a beer.

The question is not whether or not I have a problem with Bush tracking my phone calls. The question is whether I think it is OK for one branch of the government to take the other two out of the equation by unilaterally deciding what is right and wrong.

The judiciary is removed by avoiding the warrant requirement. The legislature is removed as well -- even though a handful of Congress members were briefed, they were all sworn to secrecy, effectively removing any opportunity to complain. Besides, Bush doesn't look for input from the other branches or even cabinet-level offices -- he looks for validation of his ideology. That's dangerous.

Maybe you've got no problem with this. If you let this go, though, what do you do when Bush or another president takes it upon himself to unilaterally do something you disagree with? How do you bitch then? You've got to draw a line somewhere, and that line ought to be where the other two branches want it drawn. That's why we have checks and balances in the first place, FFS.

In closing, I would note that if in fact people have not problem with archiving the meta data for all phone calls, why not introduce legislation of introduce it by referendum and make it official? And don't give me this shit about, "Oh that will just help the terrorists," because any terrorist in this country who thinks that he can speak freely without worry of an actual phone tap is an idiot. The sad thing is that he'd probably be right, though, because the NSA seems to be too wrapped up in bullshit that attempts to find the proverbial needle in a haystack lately than doing any serious intelligence work.

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And by the way, speaking of the NSA, why is it that despite the fact that "bad intelligence" seems to be the universal scapegoat for everything from failing to stop 9/11 to invading the wrong fucking country, Hayden, the guy in charge of some of that bad intelligence, is getting a promotion to head of the CIA?

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i smell shit :(

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[quote=toasty]And by the way, speaking of the NSA, why is it that despite the fact that "bad intelligence" seems to be the universal scapegoat for everything from failing to stop 9/11 to invading the wrong fucking country, Hayden, the guy in charge of some of that bad intelligence, is getting a promotion to head of the CIA?[/quote]

I have no problem with the call tracking but one thing I agree with you is on the incompetence in our government. We need to clean house. Bush is just wasting another 4 years. What happened to the Rosevelts who spoke from the heart and spoke to fight for the people. I think we both agree on the matter that our government right now is a piece of shit. We need change and lets not forget that we the people are the government and we have the power to do what is right. If the people can unite in a non-party (no democrats and no republicans) together, we can bring this country back to receive the respect that it deserves.

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[quote=Xessex]i smell shit :([/quote]

go flsuh your toilet :lol:

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[quote=speciale]there have been judges in the past to deny the government No matter what, we need to look at the big picture. They are only phone records. Its no different than it was in 30 years ago. I don't like Bush either, but I would rather them track phone calls. Imagine what they can find. Its also better than them listening to our calls. For all of those here who disagree with the call records database, do me one favor. Take 1 day to study it and think about it. If after that day you still don't like it then I will buy you a beer. PS, for that beer, it is only available in FT Lauderdale :roll:[/quote] And if a judge says no then that's that... that's called balance of powers which is what our constitution, our very way of government is based on...

What this administration has done is to basically say "We don't feel that we NEED Congress OR the Judiciary to have a say in what we're doing so we're just going to do it." And, I'm sorry, but that's just wrong. Why do you think this Administration steadfastly refuses to commit this program to Judicial and Congressional oversight? Because they're pretty sure that MANY parts of it will be found to be not only unconstitutional but may subject members of the Administration to the possibility of Criminal charges.

Also, there's the whole problem of "What's next?" Think about it, the NYT article drops and Bush says that it's a very limited program that only focuses on a few people in the country and their calls to people overseas. So then more and more of the program comes to light and we're learning that it's much bigger than what they admitted to so they acknowledge that, yes, perhaps it's on little larger scope than we said before, but we are not datamining or targeting domestic calls or bothering with information regarding ordinary Americans.

So then USA Today basically calls Bullshit on all of that by reporting that not only are they bothering with ordinary Americans but they have obtained the call records from 3 of the biggest Telcom's in the country to build a huge Database from which to "find patterns". And so now they're saying "we can't comment on that" and Orrin Hatch all but admits that he's been briefed on that program but they claim that they're not listening...

Well... do we believe them? Gonzales sat in front of the Judiciary Oversight (what a joke) Committee and LIED HIS ASS OFF. He basically described the complete opposite of what we now know is going on. And you know what? It doesn't matter because that slime ball Specter, for all of his big talk about oversight and whatnot decides it's not appropriate to ask Gonzales to testify (edit here: ) UNDER OATH so there's no grounds for perjury.

If you are a registered democrat voter... or if your are eligible to vote and would vote democrat if registered, PLEASE REGISTER AND PLEASE VOTE this November. Of course if you're Republican I urge you to register and vote as well (as that's how this country works) but given that I'm a democrat I have to play favorites. :)

The only hope for stopping this march towards an Imperial Presidency is by eliminating Republican rule in Congress and gaining subpeona power in order to start calling this Administration to task for all the shit it's done over the last 5 years.

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Rich woods is my personal diety.... I'm starting a stalker club.... that way if there is a demonstration or a march we can join in really quick-like.... cuz we'd already be in the bushes clipping letters out of magazines and listening to his mixes on our ipods...

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Jenks is right about Elechlon, been around since just after WW2, an agreement between USA, UK, Austrlia and NZ. All the data collected is sent to the US where it's checked and if the US decides it's relervant then it;s returned to the country of origin. Shoddy imo, but what can you do.

As for the patriot act, it's only a modification of exsisting laws. If you look deeply into some of the FEMA legisation, if a state of emergency if delaclared then your goverment can intetern you in a camp, confistate all your assets etc. Basically the patriot act has done is clarfiy the electronic aspect and made it easier to enact legisation without needing to declare a state of emergency.

The USA is nearly a police state imo. ;)

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:Tongue:

[quote=miketpoto]Rich woods is my personal diety.... I'm starting a stalker club.... that way if there is a demonstration or a march we can join in really quick-like.... cuz we'd already be in the bushes clipping letters out of magazines and listening to his mixes on our ipods...[/quote]

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thats a pretty fucking stupid thing to say huh? like i said, what freedoms dont we have that someone else's country does outside of legalized drugs?>

however, i dont love the idea of listening in, but you whino's are taking it too far.

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[quote=thesightless]thats a pretty fucking stupid thing to say huh? like i said, what freedoms dont we have that someone else's country does outside of legalized drugs?>

however, i dont love the idea of listening in, but you whino's are taking it too far.[/quote]

Police State might be a bit much at this point...

But there have been some recent events that are extremely troubling...

First you have the statement by Gonzales that members of the press can be prosecuted and jailed for printing what the Government considers classified material.

Then there are at least 2 major jury trials that had to do with the US Government's rendition program and Guatanimo have been dismissed due to the Government claiming "State Secrets" regarding the information that might be sensitive in nature.

Add to that the witch hunt in the CIA to persecute "whistle blowers" despite the fact that under current law whistle blowers are afforded protections under the law; the recent raid of a Congress members office on Capital Hill that has been denounced by Congressional leaders of both parties as a major assault on the separation of powers and as a brazen example of abuse by the executive & judicial branches.

We are headed in the wrong direction... you might feel that the ends (whatever they may be) justifies the means but I don't agree and I think that this administration has gone far enough with their enroachments on the civil rights of US citizens and on the separation of powers that have been the foundation on which this government has rested since it's inception.

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[QUOTE][First you have the statement by Gonzales that members of the press can be prosecuted and jailed for printing what the Government considers classified material. /QUOTE]

i am in agreement with them here. it may not be a big thing yet, but eventually it can fuck something up big time. look at sr bush's war. saddam was watching CNN reports to figure out what we were doing.

frankly, and harshly, the guys in guantamo were enemy fighters trying to kill our troops and if they were still in afghan and iraq then they would be part of a bigger problem. they are lucky we didnt just shoot them.

but i agree some of the ""means"" are a bit too much, but seriously comon. do you really think they are listening to you? they are going after the middle eastern ppl through a neccessary racial profilling program. just imagine if clinton had enacted something like this and the governmental agencies were allowed to share data before 9/11 and they could have grabbed atta in the airport. they knew he was a target, and eventually found out he was training here in the US. it was all there but gov't ineptitude allowed it to happen.

like i said the answer to this countries problems dont lie with the republicans or democrats, but with the third option, reality based ppl who are honest when they need to be and secretive when they need to be.

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No this is in violation of the First Amendment guaranteeing freedom of the Press.

If the Press cannot adequately keep a check on the Administration regarding their blatant law breaking then we are truly heading towards a Fascist state.

Read this:

[url]http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/2006/05/imprisoning-journalists.html[/url]

You might not agree with Glenn Greenwald but you can't argue with his credentials and I think that he is one of the most lucid voices today regarding the Constitution and what is going on today with this Administration's increasingly dismissive view of this important document.

[quote=thesightless][quote][First you have the statement by Gonzales that members of the press can be prosecuted and jailed for printing what the Government considers classified material. /QUOTE]

i am in agreement with them here. it may not be a big thing yet, but eventually it can fuck something up big time. look at sr bush's war. saddam was watching CNN reports to figure out what we were doing.

frankly, and harshly, the guys in guantamo were enemy fighters trying to kill our troops and if they were still in afghan and iraq then they would be part of a bigger problem. they are lucky we didnt just shoot them.

but i agree some of the ""means"" are a bit too much, but seriously comon. do you really think they are listening to you? they are going after the middle eastern ppl through a neccessary racial profilling program. just imagine if clinton had enacted something like this and the governmental agencies were allowed to share data before 9/11 and they could have grabbed atta in the airport. they knew he was a target, and eventually found out he was training here in the US. it was all there but gov't ineptitude allowed it to happen.

like i said the answer to this countries problems dont lie with the republicans or democrats, but with the third option, reality based ppl who are honest when they need to be and secretive when they need to be.[/quote]

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then the moron should just do what his predessor did, and change the law now that he owns the house.

but seriously, if you are vehemently opposed to this, then what do you reccomend the intelligence services do to enure, your, mine and everyones safety in order to prevent another mass homicide (please do not infer that i am satirical, mean, or uber right) i just want an honest answer to a really tough problem that just might take a really tough answer to stop it.

and in regards to press freedom, they can have it, but things that are openly declared secret intelligence should not be viewed. it can cost lives and tons of money at the expense of a reporters ego. imagine if that poor lady who was outed was still in the embassy she was stationed at and happened to be out on the street. all it takes is for one person to see the report and grab her. then the intellignce is no longer valueable and she is at risk as well as any person who falls into her intlelignce.

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You sound like you're sort of confused regarding exactly what has happened and why...

First off, the Valerie Plame incident is different from the NSA Wiretap program in that there are specific laws on the books that make the outing of a covert agent a federal crime and it still remains to be seen as to whether Fitzgerald will indict someone on those charges specifically. The NSA Wiretap program is in violation of FISA and therefore those that brought it to the attention of the press were legitimate whistleblowers and the Press has a responsibility to make sure that the American Public is aware of what its Government is doing in their name. Did you even read that link I put in my post? You sound as if you didn't.

Regarding the intelligence services, they have incredible flexibility under FISA to do what it is they are looking to do domestically... and that is the crux here... the Administration is doing what it is doing without judicial oversight. I'm not sure why you are trying to frame this in a black and white issue when it's not... those who are arguing that this is an abuse of power are not advocating that the Government NOT conduct intelligence gathering in order to prevent another terrorist attact... they ARE advocating that the Administration do it within the confines of the law (and, no, I don't feel that Gonzales is correct in saying that the President is within his rights to do this under Article 2 of the Constitution) and subject anything and everything that they do to review by both Congress and the Judiciary.

And as far as preventing another mass homicide perhaps we can start by actually going after those responsible instead of this inept and horrendous war of choice in Iraq that was waged on the basis of questionable intelligence and outright fabrication of evidence in order to make their claim. How about that? Now we've got Iran making noise SPECIFICALLY because they know they can because the US does not have the manpower to stop them. They don't.

I'm not sure how it is that anyone can justify a Government that has declared that NO ONE can review what they are doing due to the classified status of the information. The FCC has said that they cannot review the NSA Wiretap program and the major telecoms as it involves classified material... Congressional oversight cannot be done because it involves classified material... lawsuits challenging these programs can't proceed because the President says the information is classified so therefore the judge has to dismiss the case... So what you have is an Administration acting alone and not allowing the other branches to oversee what it is doing.

THIS MY FRIEND IS THE MAKING OF AN IMPERIAL PRESIDENCY.

And that is the real problem here. It's called Fascism and we're heading towards it if something is not done and soon.

[quote=thesightless]then the moron should just do what his predessor did, and change the law now that he owns the house.

but seriously, if you are vehemently opposed to this, then what do you reccomend the intelligence services do to enure, your, mine and everyones safety in order to prevent another mass homicide (please do not infer that i am satirical, mean, or uber right) i just want an honest answer to a really tough problem that just might take a really tough answer to stop it.

and in regards to press freedom, they can have it, but things that are openly declared secret intelligence should not be viewed. it can cost lives and tons of money at the expense of a reporters ego. imagine if that poor lady who was outed was still in the embassy she was stationed at and happened to be out on the street. all it takes is for one person to see the report and grab her. then the intellignce is no longer valueable and she is at risk as well as any person who falls into her intlelignce.[/quote]

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3 years and counting my friend. just praying hillary. kerry, and gore dont win. then shit will go downhill quicker than bush could ever pull off. like i say, the third option is there, its our choice to get it in.

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[quote=thesightless] but seriously, if you are vehemently opposed to this, then what do you reccomend the intelligence services do to enure, your, mine and everyones safety in order to prevent another mass homicide (please do not infer that i am satirical, mean, or uber right) i just want an honest answer to a really tough problem that just might take a really tough answer to stop it.[/quote] You want to save lives? Consider this:

Statistics from 2002:

• Heart Disease: 696,947
• Cancer: 557,271
• Stroke: 162,672
• Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 124,816
• Accidents (unintentional injuries): 106,742
• Diabetes: 73,249
• [B]Influenza/pneumonia: 65,681[/B]
• Alzheimer's disease: 58,866
• Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 40,974
• Septicemia: 33,865
• Suicide: 30,622
• Murder: 16,110

More people are going to die in car accidents in the US this year than from the boogeyman terrorists. If you want to save lives let's ban cars! How about obesity? Why not ban all the McDonalds and Burger Kings etc? At least doing that would have a higher yeild than our war on terrorism. FFS, you have a better chance of being hit by lightning than death via terrorism. We have spent TRILLIONS on this "war", when we could have saved more lives with flu shots (see above).

How many liberties are we willing to sacrifice to be safe? And though we have already been stripped of many how much safer are we?

Keep in mind that per the 9/11 commission report Al-queda was successful in carrying out their attacks because "...electronic communications were regarded as insecure". So what makes you believe that today they are going to start using them? And how much "safer" have we become due to this government eavesdropping?

Sacrificing liberty for the sake of liberty is idiocy.

[quote] The unrest against the government's tyranny is reaching a critical point.

Expect another 'terrorist act' real soon to distract us from the issue of our eroding civil rights.[/quote]

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neoee what do you do for a living??

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^^^^ IT for an airplane, missle, spacecraft, satellite, rocket, & defense systems company who in the past also made furniture ;) (and some other stuff that I'm forgetting).

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wow your moving on up when you go from furniture to Missile Defense..

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[QUOTE=neoee] Sacrificing liberty for the sake of liberty is idiocy.[/QUOTE]

:RockOn:

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[quote=thesightless]werd, all they are doing is making sure akbar is not calling mohammed in morrocco to ask when they should strike.[/quote]

After reading this please define the word Racist ?

Signed Mohamed Gaafar

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dude, dont take thing like that as racist. just weird choice of wording on reality. think about what they are trying to do and who thier choice target is. doesnt make it right, but it also doesnt make is false. they arent grabbinthe line of a guy named olav who is calling his brother in moscow.

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I honestly do not care. If they want to listen to my stupid voice blabber about non-sense ... I say let them. Same with the searching ... I have nothing to hide so I could give a rats fuck if they search me. I know these are rights ... but frankly because I do not do drugs, sell, or make, nor am I a terrorist. The worst thing they are doing is wasting my hard earned tax money on bullshit. Now, that does piss me off.

Goverment is full of bullshit and paper pushers. God Bless the Red, White and Blue.

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thats what im saying. as far as i can tell, 99% of the country hasnt had thier life changed. they arent opressing me, you, rich, poto, toasty or anyone. they are looking at groups of numbers connecting to a different set of numbers based in the middle east and northern africa. if they see a disturbing pattern of callers, they act.

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So what this comes down to is that you trust your government and I don't.

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i don't trust them. and i doubt we can stop them.

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ditto. i also dont trust the bees in the nest to my window, but my lazy ass doesnt want to deal with spraying the nest and pissing it off because a bee might sting a person walking past my building. eh, its just a difference in opinion. it doesnt piss me off enough, but clearly it ticks you off a ton. agree to disagree./