[URL="http://www.shampoon.com/playvideo/503/Iranian-Cartoon.html"]http://www.shampoon.com/playvideo/503/Iranian-Cartoon.html[/URL]

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

definitely fucked :OhMy:

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

yes, disturbing. is this in the saturday morning rotation? smurfs, gem, suicide bombing, voltron... ??? yikes...

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

that is so FUCKED UP!

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

I preferred Shrek. And I bet the sequel won't be as good either - they never are.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

The truth is what you make it...

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Fuck them.. If this is real we have a lot of work to do. This is as bad as the Saudi's raising $200 million for suicide bombers families last year.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Do you think your information stream and your books are much different from that? I think not.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

and here comes yao throwing the propaganda card out.. yet again.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

^^

Open your eyes man. Information is coloured. Everywhere.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Whoa. Fucked up shit.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

What's crazy to us is normal to them and what's crazy to them is normal to us.... Yao does have a point and aside from that if we think we can change thousands of years of history about how a region thinks, acts and feels about one another then we're either blind to the truth or just plain ignorant... I don't like it either but you'd think this stuff started when the whole US "war on terror" started... It didn't.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Wow! lots of hate going on there!

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

um. that's war. he didn't target civilians. and he was avenging the murder of his family.

also it was a representation of the palestinian struggle and not iran.

[url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4528563.stm[/url]

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Yup.

Moreover it is also a hate-propaganda film against Ariel Sharon, who is that ruthless general. Teach your kids young, so they will stand firm in their hate when they grow up ;)

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

I can see where a little kid would watch this over GI Joe. Cobra!!!!!

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

trouble is most kids in Iran hate these cartoons as they've always had decent stuff to watch.

Ottoo ottoo, Belle and Sebastian, Ulyssees, the little Squirrel, that big purple ape one

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

I hope that that is true, then maybe there might be a little hope left for the generation that is now being raised....

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

fuck all that.

americas and europe arent showing cartoons that advocate killing invidels and people who are different than you. watch it again, the ""revenge aspect is barely paid any time. its more about killing in the name of allah.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Dude, just look at an average hollywood movie...

who's the bad guys? Foreigners...in series like 24 you got mostly terrorists from Arabia or South America. In most films the 'bad guy' comes from those countries, and in another series (JAG) there were a few episodes involving Iraq. Whatta you know...the European attorney was a Frenchman with his hair combed tighly backwards and a sharp face.

It may not happen so openly, but in our films and series there is a constant flow of subliminal hints that are stereotyping our view of what is good and bad. The media try to colour our views constantly, just look around a bit...

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

sounds like calling a spade a spade to me Yao.. who should the terrorists be in these shows then?? Complete BS if you ask me..

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Hey, i've been playing the devil's advocate here to make you realise that your opinion is not as clean as you think it is: no matter where you live and who you are, nobody on this planet is completely objective in his/her viewpoints, it's that simple. That doesn't mean you should suddenly [I]agree[/I] with the other one's opinions, you're entitled to have your own dude :D.

It's just that I totally resent this black and white thinking that I see taking place, it's dangerously ignorant IMO to simply present or take your own opinion as being the only truthful one.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[quote=Yao]who's the bad guys? Foreigners...in series like 24 you got mostly terrorists from Arabia or South America.[/quote] Is it the producer's fault that 99.98% of terrorists are Arab?? Like runningman said...sounds like calling a spade a spade to me.

And that cartoon...this what they show children over there??!! :shock:

Whatever...let them keep kiling each other over land that's as "holy" as my asshole and gods that don't exist. Less for us to worry about.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

i can only hope some idiot gets his hands on a load of nukes and levels the whole fucking area and everyone in it, only if it will shut all these people up. im at the point where i could deal with a few million dead people if it would stop hillary clinton and chuck schumer up.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[QUOTE=evangelion]Is it the producer's fault that 99.98% of terrorists are Arab?? Like runningman said...sounds like calling a spade a spade to me.

And that cartoon...this what they show children over there??!! :shock:

Whatever...let them keep kiling each other over land that's as "holy" as my asshole and gods that don't exist. Less for us to worry about.[/QUOTE]

You could ask the same question about that film dude, how come things always suddenly get subject to different standards when it's not inside the US? I seriously think that that reeks of hypocrisy, I'm sorry bro...

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Uhhh...what??

What question about that film??

What is getting subjected to different standards??

Hypocrisy??

Don't be sorry...elaborate

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Subject to different standards here is what is considered propaganda and what is not. You and Runningman claim that that children's programme is pure propaganda depicting Israelians as the evil ones, and that such thing does not happen in the US or the West in general. In the latter case i'll have to dissapoint you though, since practically all films produced by Hollywood use the same mechanism, though maybe hidden better. The same goes for series and the likes. It's not just the news media that try to shape your image of the world, it's ALL forms of media, be it informative or recreational.

Uhm...does that explain what i was trying to say all the time?

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Veiled references to "the Enemy" in movies and TV shows is nothing new. Come on...G.I. Joe = the Good US...Cobra = the evil USSR.

But did it ever depict Duke walking up to Gorbachev and blasting him in the head??

No

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[QUOTE=Yao]In the latter case i'll have to dissapoint you though, since practically all films produced by Hollywood use the [B][COLOR="Orange"]same mechanism, though maybe hidden better[/COLOR][/B].[/QUOTE]

In answer to your last post: what the fuck are we arguing about, since we seem to agree that there are differences in the way that game is played?

:D

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

maybe hidden better?? Yao your stretching here.. I can guarantee you that a show like that would NEVER make it to TV in North America. Stop defending them. You are starting to sound ridiculous with a touch of "Manchurian Candidate" in your tone.

Here is a lesson for you Yao: When you have an enemy you have to portray him as the enemy some how. right. But to be so bold as call it how it is like in this cartoon is wrong and if I was in charge I would go kill the makers of the cartoon in a public execution and then bomb the channels that aired it because they are the enemy.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[quote=thesightless]fuck all that.

americas and europe arent showing cartoons that advocate killing invidels and people who are different than you. [/quote]

wrong again sightless:

[URL="http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5339-2002Mar22?language=printer"]http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A5339-2002Mar22?language=printer[/URL]

In the twilight of the Cold War, the United States spent millions of dollars to supply Afghan schoolchildren with textbooks filled with violent images and militant Islamic teachings, part of covert attempts to spur resistance to the Soviet occupation.

The primers, which were filled with talk of jihad and featured drawings of guns, bullets, soldiers and mines, have served since then as the Afghan school system's core curriculum. Even the Taliban used the American-produced books, though the radical movement scratched out human faces in keeping with its strict fundamentalist code.

Children were taught to count with illustrations showing tanks, missiles and land mines, agency officials said. They acknowledged that at the time it also suited U.S. interests to stoke hatred of foreign invaders.

As Afghan schools reopen today, the United States is back in the business of providing schoolbooks. But now it is wrestling with the unintended consequences of its successful strategy of stirring Islamic fervor to fight communism. What seemed like a good idea in the context of the Cold War is being criticized by humanitarian workers as a crude tool that steeped a generation in violence.

[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ajax[/URL]

Operation Ajax (1953) (officially TP-AJAX) was an Anglo-American covert operation to overthrow the elected government of Iran and Prime Minister Mohammed Mossadegh and restore the exiled Shah Mohammed Reza Pahlavi to the throne as a dictator.

Operation Ajax was the first time the Central Intelligence Agency orchestrated a plot to overthrow a [B]democratically[/B]-elected government. The success of this operation, and its relatively low cost, encouraged the CIA to successfully carry out a similar operation in Guatemala a year later.

Widespread dissatisfaction with the oppressive regime of the reinstalled Shah led to the 1979 Islamic Revolution in Iran and the occupation of the U.S. embassy. The role that the U.S. embassy had played in the 1953 coup led the revolutionary guards to suspect that it might be used to play a similar role in suppressing the revolution.

So, instead of invading iran and overthrowing their govrnment for a second time or fanning the flames of jihad (and funding osama bin laben by the way in the 1980s), or siding with iraq in their war with iran, the USA should try something new.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

@runningman:

I think DarkMark has made my point already, and i’ll do some more searches on that shit when I have the time (in the middle of writing a paper on Gacaca courts in Rwanda), but:

You’re in charge of Laser Aid, not any frickin’ government, so spare me that public execution rhethoric to begin with. Furthermore, you better back down because I am fucking NOT defending them dude, if you had taken the trouble to actually read what I wrote you’d have seen that I’m merely adressing the the fact that people here react appalled to that cartoon as if open and/or hidden influencing does not occur in the West: that is just insanely hypocritical IMO, and you must be on lonely heights on that if this is really how you feel about it. Hidden better: that was just a damn understatement, and far from the truth: the Western countries are masters at it, and much more subtle than you can imagine. How’s that for a stretch? But I’m right on this one, and only very poorly educated people would support you in your claim runningman.

Here’s another one for you:

There are people in your government that are not even necessarily right-winged, but have done things for your country that you wouldn’t even begin to imagine, and that would disgust you, simply because it needed to be done to make your country what it is today. There are much tougher people out there than you or me man.

Am I being harsh? Oh sorry, maybe that is because I’m getting sick of being accused of things that I am/do not at all, simply because some people here refuse to use their goddamn brains for a moment because they’re are afraid of being called ‘soft’ or ‘liberal’ or whatever.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[quote=Yao]In answer to your last post: what the fuck are we arguing about, since we seem to agree that there are differences in the way that game is played?

:D[/quote] Uhhh...who's argueing?? :what

[quote=Yao]I?m merely adressing the the fact that people here react appalled to that cartoon as if open and/or hidden influencing does not occur in the West: that is just insanely hypocritical IMO, and you must be on lonely heights on that if this is really how you feel about it.[/quote] You're missing the point. American kid cartoons don't even have blood in them...much less a family getting gunned down in cold blood and some kid blowing himself up in an act of revenge.

I grew up in the '80s in America...unless you were here you have no clue what it was like. Yes, veiled references to Russia as "the Enemy" were everywhere...but they were veiled....not even comparable to that propaganda filled "cartoon", that basically...no, not even basically...that says "Kill your enemy by blowing yourself up." Huge difference.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

I never made any reference to the brutality as such in the cartoon dude, the whole damn time i've been concentrating on the simply hidden propaganda issue itself. But naming that, we still agree on the difference of methods, right. Apart from that, would you also agree with this part:

[quote="Yao"]the Western countries are masters at it, and much more subtle than you can imagine.[/quote]

You see, i did not miss the point at all: you are so focusing on that bloody explicit character that you somehow seem to think that that cartoon is everything you would not stand for, but the only reason it's not happening here is that it's not in our culture to bring stuff so explicit to out children. So we don't show blood, but indoctrinate them just as badly, be it much more subtly.

You can be appalled by the blood, but that is just symptomatic of a much deeper layer in the politics - civil society relation. It's not about the blood or the violence in the end, it's about the message that gets delivered and stays in your head. No matter how it is done, it's the message that counts. And that's the level I was working on here.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[quote=Yao]but the only reason it's not happening here is that it's not in our culture to bring stuff so explicit to out children.[/quote] My only point

Give me one example of Western culture that backs up this statement: [quote]So we don't show blood, but indoctrinate them just as badly, be it much more subtly.[/quote]

I can't think of one thing I've seen in my entire life that has the same kind of message as that cartoon...subtle or otherwise.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

your talking about degrees of harshness and subtle?? Sorry Yao not buying it. I agree that there are a lot of things that go on and we hear the story that they tell us. But this cartoon should be the proof that something needs to happen because they are going after the kids. Showing them how to be a recruit and how to become a martyr. its sick. Me growing up in Canada watching shows like Transformers and Thunder Cats never explained in "Full Detail" of how to kill someone. The problem I have is how detailed it is. I can't talk about this more because it just pisses me off that we let this go on.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

runningman, champion of the neo con cause. purveyour of truth and secret agent extraordinaaire

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

[QUOTE=runningman]your talking about degrees of harshness and subtle?? Sorry Yao not buying it. I agree that there are a lot of things that go on and we hear the story that they tell us. But this cartoon should be the proof that something needs to happen because they are going after the kids. Showing them how to be a recruit and how to become a martyr. its sick. Me growing up in Canada watching shows like Transformers and Thunder Cats never explained in "Full Detail" of how to kill someone. The problem I have is how detailed it is. I can't talk about this more because it just pisses me off that we let this go on.[/QUOTE]

Hey, you have every right to pissed off about that cartoon, but it pisses me off all the more that some people, in this case mostly you and Evangelion, are taking on this 'holier than thou' attitude on this one, saying the West wouldn't do that kind of stuff. Evangelion even requests proof, where this goddam stuff could be in 'Controlling and running a State for Dummies' for fucks sake. You guys are posting in the politics section and you're trying to tell me you don't even know about this kind of stuff going on in you own backyard?

Asking for proof is a goddamn insult for your own intelligence, but i'll get you a few links. My knowledge on this comes from mainly Anthropologically based literature, but I've found a few books that focus more on the political side of power & influence.

This is politics, and crowd control basics guys. You're asking for proof while all you have to do is look around. Look at stereotypes all over the world, and how they're portayed and used to create an image of the 'other'. There have been extensive studies for this phenomenon, primarily in Anthropology and Ethnology, later on for a more intrumental use in political sciences. Maybe it's my Anthropology background that makes this info among the prime pieces of knowledge when looking at other people and how they behave, but if you take a few nice books and read them, you'd know what I was talking about.

read:

Small Places, Large Issues, by T.H. Eriksen, in which you will read about it and find a number of references to other books that go more in depth on the topic.

Any book on politics and it's basics. Not your popular journalistic books, but the boring stuff.

These books should give some insight as well:

[url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0875844405/103-1023683-8815051?v=glance&n=283155[/url] [url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0688128165/ref=pd_sim_b_5/103-1023683-8815051?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155[/url] [url]http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0029183308/ref=pd_sim_b_3/103-1023683-8815051?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155[/url]

Enjoy. I will not continue this discussion any further btw, since I have gotten the feeling that either you guys don't want to understand what i'm saying, or you simply choose to ignore the logic I've presented to you, which is that Iran is not much different from us in using it's techniques to control it's people and depict us or Israel as the bad guys. The degree of subtlety may vary, but the methods are the same.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

Hmmm...yeah, those books don't really look like cartoons aimed at kids, but whatever. If you're going to start getting all pissed off about it, then just drop it.

You're getting all bent out of shape about me asking for proof...because there isn't any. Show me the episode of Tom and Jerry were Jerry straps on a bomb vest and walks into Spike's doghouse. Not gonna happen.

Holier than thou attitude?? Not really seeing it.

Bottom line...your whole argumement is that the West is doing the same thing...I've still never watched an epiosde of GI Joe that showed me how to kill Reagan. You keep going on and on about subtely, which has nothing to do with the point I'm trying to make. There is nothing subtle about that cartoon and you will never see anything like it broadcasted on US airwaves. It's the truth man, if that is what you are construing as a 'holier than thou' attitude, then you need to redefine what a ''holier than thou' attitude is. The minute you see a cartoon aimed at American kids with the violence and message of that cartoon, you let me know. We'll be waiting a long time.

Re: ok, maybe we need to invade iran. not political, just fucked up.

You guys are some real hard heads. Yao makes a vaild point. In the US we censor the shit out of everything, even video games are ridiculed for cartoon violence. If your under 17(?) you can't buy a cd because it has some swear words on it. FFS you could be charged with child porn for a cartoon! Now compare this to other countries where they don't try to "protect the children". Death is a very real part life. Children walking past dead bodies don't even do a double take. Seeing blood is no big deal to them. In the US however, I know countless people that can't even look when their own blood is drawn by a doctor! You act as if a message can't be delivered without showing the details. You honestly think that someone needs to be shown a video to know how to kill a person? If you think 99.98% of terrorists are middle eastern maybe you should look up terrorism first:

[B]ter·ror·ism[/B] [URL="https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dterrorism"][IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg[/IMG][/URL] ([COLOR=red][FONT=verdana,sans-serif] P [/FONT][/COLOR]) [URL="http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html"][B]Pronunciation Key[/B][/URL] (t[IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gif[/IMG]r[IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/IMG]-r[IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ibreve.gif[/IMG]z[IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/lprime.gif[/IMG][IMG]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gif[/IMG]m) [I]n.[/I] The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons.

By that defination the Crips, Bloods, mafia's etc. fit that description too. As a matter of fact our government fits under that umbrella. That probably changes you calculation a bit, no?

Secondly you might want to consider that the US is a much more technologically advanced civilization, where messages might be delivered in much more intelligent, yet subtle ways, maybe subliminally? But here's the real tell tale sign: ask 10 of your friends the first word that comes to mind when you say 'Middle Eastern'. And that should be all the proof you need.