Re: France??

i didnt blame it one muslims, HOWEVER, there were calls for a jihad against the french government by those who love to jump onto these thigns and tie in a RETARDED cause to a fight or disagreement. every time a murder where race might play a question happens in the US, either the american nazi party or rev. al or rev. jesse hop on and tie it into race. there are scumbags all over this planet, we should just let them die.

Um RELATED KINDA [URL="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4438908.stm"]http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4438908.stm[/URL]

the only thing that i despise about how they treat others is the whole thing on how non-practioners arent allowed within an area of mecca, how in afghanistan, iran, syria, saudi arabia, it is legal to mutilate ppl who deny the religion.

Re: France??

[QUOTE=Yao]Hold it there...

And yes, the state plays a bigger role over here, which has until now led to a much more equal division of jobs/national income per capita (also ethnically divided), and also significantly less ghettoïsation than in the US (not saying they're not here at all, France is the worst case around here)....[/QUOTE]

Yao, you do give alot of good insight, but I do believe your views are based on European Socialist dogma, not wrong just different from the Capitalistic ferver that has made America so strong. All said, there are always PROBLEMS!

If in the above context, you write about France having the ''worst case'', and Europe as a whole having the ''state'' or govt playing ''a bigger role which led to more 'equal division of jobs/national income per capita ... '', why are Europeans not looking at the changes in regard to the increase in Islamic peoples moving into Europe over the last decade or two, or three.

Europe has around 12 million Muslims now, and France owns about half of them. Can't we see a marked change in European culture turning or changing as the racial lines become more and more Islamic?

And while Europeans are not marrying and making children/families, North African peoples are moving in and exploding families of growth more than exploding cars. Can't we see that Europe is going to be Islamic in 50 years based on birthrate alone?

I think in a couple decades from now, if you could re-read your words of today, you would look back and have a vastly different view of thoughts on this subject of 'who is' and 'why is' France burning.

Truly only time will tell, and sadly there is no stopping the inevitable for Europe! The problem is the lack of willingness to put a finger on the problem, and stop the immigration. Just as we in America are having an flood of 'south of border illegals', our racial minority lines have changed to reflect those coming in, Europe is flooded with 'south of the border legals', who are allowed to come in and make a home, then demand changes based on their way of life.

Only time will tell!

Re: France??

:D

Well, I may have some different views, but I'm not blind, and neither are other Europeans. You're right about the high immigration rates, and yes, at this rate of birth/immigration among the Muslim community they will equal our numbers within my lifespan.

But at this very moment measures are being taken, and the ones we had are becoming more restrictive. Did you know that within 6 years we went from 60.000 asylum applications to 10.000 now, in my country? That's a pretty large cut. The biggest problem now is still the family reunion based immigration, and they're trying to tackle that right now.

Also, assimilation programmes are being pushed: you see, it's not a big problem if we have many Muslims here. It becomes a problem when they refuse to adapt, so it's pretty simple: people pass an exam and prove in their behaviour that they are willing to abide by the rules the bind our society, or they are sent back. Period. So all these doomsday scenario's are a bit overdone, though Europe should keep a very close eye on this whole issue.

As for the birthrate: the better those families become integrated in our system, the less children they will eventually produce, since the instrumental use for it will be gone (taking are for you when you're too old to work), as well as the cultural in the end. The main body of immigrants may be Muslim, but they are still mostly economic or political refugees, which points us to another problem:

The money is with us, not them. And what we don't give, they will come and get. Pretty basic, but so far proven very true: people will go in the search for money, and we have it, so they come to us. The best chances of any stability are still in the West helping the Low Developed Countries (3rd world countries) to create a minimum subsistence base for their peoples. It would cut down most of the immigration flows, since the need to move in order to provide for a higher living standard is taken away.

No matter how attractive the idea of religious driven riots may seem, the problems occuring right now have little to do with Islamism in the first place, but more with globalising economics and politics. I gotta say that the fundamentalist Muslims are using it to push their agenda in a rather agressive way though, and they should be kept in check. But what was happening in France was not Muslim-initiated, and was not about making cultural demands: it was about getting access to the same institutions and more important: chances inside society to make a decent living.

On a related note: this week they acquitted Samir A. for the second fucking time: the court acknowledged he was planning terrorist attacks, but he had not committed any, and he is considered too 'amateuristic' to be seen as a serious threat. This pisses me off so bad....that motherfucker had his martyrdom message already on video. Lock him up forever, he's an enemy of the people and the state, period. I wish this country would stop being being so überleftist and get some balls, and make laws with which you can convict those people.

But like you said Rob: Time will tell...you make one prediction and the other will occur, as always...;)

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I read a good artical a week or so ago about multicoulture societies .

Won't go into all of it but i will give you the main gist .

Truly mulitcoultural societies work very well like the ones we used to have in europe and the one still thriving in the states . The problem that is arising in europe is that countries are fast becomming a bi-coulture society (muslim / non-muslim ). If you look through history all bi coulture societies degenerate into civil war and i'm sure Yao could list them for you . The problems facing europe will travel accross the atlantic . The only way i can see the envitable not happening is if goverments remove the political correctness brigade and start re-instating national pride and a sense of national identity . If followers of islam start to embrace the country they live in then they may not see this planet as Mecca vs The Rest of The World .

Re: France??

Spot on. Wish they would cut that political correctness bullshit around here, but the fear of what happened in WWII is just rooted too deep so far...not to mention those ultra leftist fuckers that will make sure we feel guilty. Assholes...there's nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, as long as each one knows his.her boundaries and limits.

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^^ Multicoulture works fine and societies find a harmony absorbing a little of each coultures identity . It helps the inhabitants of said country to greater apperciate what their own country has to offer and they also get to appreciate what other coultures have . The trouble starts when a minority becomes too large creating a bi polar community . A few examples in a different context . Countries America vs 1980's Russia . it's a large planet but you get 2 major countries and it becomes them against us You have two major football teams who compete against each over for trophys over a decade and it becomes them against us even though there are 20 other teams in league Music genres elctro - prog .. I know this is getting silly but what i am trying to say is that when two major forces emerge the rest get forgotten and it becomes a battle generating resentment which fuels hatred . Muslims and the Rest of The World are growing apart and the day will come when it resorts to full on war . Things need to change before it does

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[quote=Yao]Spot on. Wish they would cut that political correctness bullshit around here, but the fear of what happened in WWII is just rooted too deep so far...not to mention those ultra leftist fuckers that will make sure we feel guilty. Assholes...there's nothing wrong with multi-culturalism, as long as each one knows his.her boundaries and limits.[/quote]

Knows there limits?? Not a chance. You can't trust that the world is all of a sudden not gonna strive for power. That is what the world is. As long as people are power hungry there will always be these problems.

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Dude....those limits are the law and constitution of a country. And they should be forcibly held to it.

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the law.. haha.. which planet do you live on?? the law only applies to the sheep in the world. Law doesn't apply to the guys who make it. The law is a joke.

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Hm...seems like we're on a few totally different tracks here mate...

You can't tell someone what to think, but you can keep them from doing things they're not supposed to: a constitution can be used as a weapon to protect the values of a society, simply because it is the expression of how a given society wishes to live. That's what i meant to say.

But maybe you're too fatalistic about Islamic militant extremism te realize such a thing. Be happy in your We vs. the Muslims world...my world is a lot bigger in that case, and it's fucking interesting too :D

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it isn't me vs. the muslim world.. it is the muslim world vs. runningman, yao, everybody... whether you like it or not.. you can put the blame on people like me if you feel better about yourself but I am not going to sit here and let you get away with the crap that you spill on here. I don't need to get an explanation of what a constitution is from you Yao or how it works.. It's fucking interesting to you because you are a fence sitter never have a solution so you can't be wrong.. just always blame the media and conspiacy propaganda that you hide behind.. you say it isn't muslims rebelling in France it is just poor people.. well guess what the poor people happen to be muslims.. we will see how you feel once it has hit the Netherlands and your wife or girlfriend has to wear all black and has to cover her face and has no rights..

Re: France??

Yao = fence sitter . I don't think so . He can be too diplomatic for his own good from time to time but he does express his opinions . And what happened in France was started by ppl from slums that came from all religions and coultures howeva it has been feuled and organised by muslims that have jumped on the bandwagon . And runningman I have stated my concerns that the world is comming to a crossroads on fighting muslims , either head on or subversively . Something needs to be done and soon . I'll think u'll find Yao echoes these views . Hardly a fence sitting stance

Re: France??

Thanks Bart...I read the post before your answer but decided not to answer it yet, since it kinda points out a severa case of tunnelvision IMO. Runningman thinks i'm in denial or something, while all I do is recognize the problem, but I'm trying to dive a bit deeper to find causes and processes that lead to what it happening: it's the only way to deal with the cause of a problem, not it's symptoms.

BTW: the problem with extremist Muslims taking the fight to the West was not an issue here, it was the fact that from the other side of the big pond a few people are trying to look at Europe with their simple black 'n white views, and that irritates me. Not every problem can be seen thru the Muslims vs. West glasses, there a whole range of other problems we're dealing with in society that have fuckall to do with religion. Jesus fucking Christ this pisses me off more than I can tell you, ignorance at it's best.

As for it being the Muslimworld vs us Runningman...to me it's still a small group of Muslims. You see, I know there is a group of Muslims that wants to kill me, you, Bart and every other non-muslim on the planet. But don't start generalising, because with the far majority I will still be able to have a good discussion about things and simply agree to disagree. Stop listening to that one-sided propaganda man...recognize the problem but put it in perspective and proportion please. FFS sake man, don't you know any Muslims around where you live? If you do, you should know the mistake you make by generalising so bluntly man.

As for me being too diplomatic: sometimes, yea, but i'm also a researcher, mening I'm supposed to look a little bit further than the 'common' man...sounds a bit degrading maybe, but it's not intended like that. But research is my trade, knowledge is my trade, and I'm trying to use it to find explanations which may contribute to real solutions other than just nuking the fuck out of a country.

Re: France??

You know guys the discussion is good, and I think valid points are made on both sides.

In saying this I truly do believe that in the Muslim world, especially in the middle east, they are looking at the West with hatred in their eyes. The middle east is spreading into areas close by, which happens to be Europe at the moment. On one hand I don't think they will accept the West into their cultural norm, and on the other hand I think they might. Iranian young adults are a perfect example of the people desiring the Western ways. But also they have a stricter Islamic legal system, and cannot leave very easily, so maybe they desire it since it is forbidden. Those that have some more legal ease may be more accepting of the Western ways of life. I'm unsure about this truly.

But, we have forgotten one important point in this discussion. What fueled the riots and why?

Two little vandal thugs the police chased into some electric plant and they were electrocuted. As if the police did this crime to them, the young muslims have risen up to riot against this 'injustice' in their French society. I say that 'tongue in cheek', because I don't think their is any injustice, but just the opposite. France has welcomed Muslims, at least that is how it is portrayed from the outside. Maybe the French people don't like them, I don't know, but have heard something to say this dislike of French nationals for the immigrant Muslims could be an issue. Anyhow politically the govt welcomes them with open arms.

Ok, with that being said, I think their is some comparison to the young muslim adults coming together to riot in France, to the insurgency from throughout the middle east and muslim europe to send terrorist into Iraq to try and fight the Western democracy which is coming in strongly now for the first time in history into that whole region.

Much of the muslims leaving their homes for the West desire a better way of life, same as much of Iraq wants freedom to live in a democracy. Yet I think, much of the insurgents have a similiar desire as the young french muslims to make an autonomy of muslim life in the entire world., In much the same way the Muslims fought their way across North Africa killing the existing Christian world, which was living there prior to Islam, and making by force (the sword and tax breaks) the land and people to be Muslim. This was from 500bc to 1500bc just after Muhammed lived and started the movement. Europe fought this movement of Islam and won holding them back, yet South Central Europe is still muslim today (Albania and Bosnia - and Turkey). Albania for example fought the Turks for 25 years til their national hero died in battle resulting in the entire country changing religions and way of life.

Ok here is my thought. Much of the Islamic world still is fighting this battle, though much more cleverly than they did 500 years ago. I believe Europe will fall to Islam, and they will try to change the Americas afterward.

What if the french immigrant young adults prefer their way of life but only desire the comfort and beauty of France, and as their population grows they push harder and harder for political control. I don't think the religious Muslim is any different today than that Muslim of the Middle Ages. The Koran hasn't changed and the teachings still exist in the words of Imam's across the world. They believe themselves to be superior because of Allah's choice over them to have and dominate all of the world. Islam is a missionary religion much the same as Christianity and they seek to change the world to be like them in religion and way of life.

I truly believe this is an unspoken and hidden agenda among not only the radical Muslims, but all strongly religious Muslims, even the good hearted people, though they may not like the way of the radicals, they understand it and will not speak up against it. The good Muslims will stay quite and look the other way, all the while the land becomes more acceptable of Muslims and their cultural norm whether or not they participated in the extremist way of making these changes.

Re: France??

Rob... do you ever wonder why South America is Catholic and speaks Spanish and Portuguese. Or why the whole of North America is predominantly populated by caucasians? Or why large parts of Africa speak French? Or why English is the lingua franca of the whole world???

So what if North Africa is Muslim? Who do you think made it Christian? Do you think the Romans are coming back as well? Islam is a religion, not a plan for world domination. Get a grip. :roll:

Re: France??

I don't believe in a hidden agenda either, not for a second. This is tricky to say, but I've kinda noticed it around here and when comparing for example media:

That whole war on terrorism has for predominantly Americans turned into an anology for a war on Islam, which is basically rooted in what the media and the govt. out there bring, but maybe even more because of the lack of contact Americans in general have had with other cultures. Not pointing at people on this board this time, but you gotta realize that Europe has always dealt with other cultures, has invaded them and has been invaded by them. We are a mixture of a long past with many influences, especially the Muslim culture.

The US is about 400 years old now, and relatively new. The US in it's present state even half of that age...and even though there are many immigrants from South America and Africa (through slavery), you'll have to admit that the cultural impact of those minorities is not nearly as heavy as when they would occupy a large part fo the States and were in a position to impose their norms and values on the population. That is what has happened to a large part of Europe though.

The other reason is colonisation: it may have predominantly been about imposing our system onto totally unfit societies, but that is where Cultural Anthropology was born: research among the indigenous people to learn about their culture, beliefs, practises and whatnot.

Anyway, to conclude this short story: those may be among the reasons for that whole anti-Muslim vibe I'm tasting among many Americans (especially conservatives), while over here you will generally be regarded as ultra-right-winged, a backwards thinker or an outright racist if you would state such things.

Speaking of 'small cultural differences'...lol

Re: France??

I'm sorry guys, you don't know anything about the religion of Islam. It is a missionary religion, just like Christianity, with a goal of converting the world. That being said, most Muslims and Christians alike do not live as they are instructed by the teachings of the two religions. More could be said about that, but I don't have the time.

If you think otherwise about the religion then either you or the people you talk to don't know the whole of the religion based on Muhammeds teaching, which can only be understood by reading the Koran with the many volumns of books written by men who listened to him speak. Todays Imams still use both and teach from both, the Koran and the writtings of men who learned from Muhammed (the hadith ...sp?).

As I stated earlier, North Aftrica, Turkey, and much of the Middle East were Christian first. St. Augustine came from Algeria. Mosque in Turkey today were Christian places of worship when Christ lived. Muhammed lived in the 500's and Islam spread almost all the way into Europe, by the sword. Not all Muslims like this fact, as Christians don't like the fact that crusaders killed Muslims over religion and to take back land.

Problem is most people don't understand Islam, because the muslims disguise the means of the religion, and it has become politically incorrect to say something bad about them, yet the world can slam Christians and white men all day long.

The only way Islam survives is by the radical extremist and the countries which enslave the population with Sharia (again forgive my spelling but Islamic Law, like Iran and Saudi Arabia have where one law is governed by one set of police, and the religious police govern the other set of religious laws). I think Islam will never go away, but would be much smaller if the practices were not in place over so much of the world. Btw, look at Indonesia where the radical Islamic extremist are sweeping through villages cutting up the Christians and running them into the jungles, burning the churches, and attempting to rid the land of Christians. Same in Sudan!

Think about the big picture guys, read a bit more on the whole of Islam.

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Btw, my comments above are not meant to be in form of racism. I have friends who are Muslim.

It is what I have learned about the religion of Islam from several books I have read, news articles, Muslims I have spoken with, and Imams and/or clerics I have also spoken to in the past. Please don't try to put a different face on the words I have written.

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Oh I don't know... you always say something ridiculous and then something intelligent in response. Hats off.

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lol

Same here though Rob, and although what you are telling is pretty much true, the average Muslim is at these times not really different from the average Christian, like you said. My question is though, why would Islam need such an agressive militant core to survive where Christianity does not? Anyway, I'm thinking Islam, just as Christianity, will go through a big change - call it their Illumination. The way the extremist militant core is pursueing their agenda will IMO eventually force the rest of the Muslims to show their true colours.

Man I'd like to say more on this now, but i'm working right now...let's get back to this later on man.

Re: France??

Well, the point I'm driving home is this: radical Muslims and fundamental Christians are in a sense very similiar religiously and yet very different. Both are doing what they read in the fundamentals of their faith to be true as a follower of their religion.

1. Christians are ordained by God in the bible to go out and spread Christianity to the world so all can have the opportunity to hear and choose if they want to follow Christ teaching or not, and if they choose to follow they can accept him into their hearts and have access to heaven at death. They do this by talking to you where ever they can find you.

2. Muslims are ordained by Allah in the Koran to go out and spread Islam to the world so that all can have a chance of knowing Allah and coming into Heaven if they do all the requirements of the faith. Which their are 5 main pillars of Islam which a follower has to follow and perform to have access to heaven, and they never actually know for sure if they have been approved by Allah even if they do all the requirements.

Both books teach many good and noble things, both inform us of violence in the name of each Gods name also in the past. The Koran teaches that Christ was the only sinless prophet compared to the other prophets and only Muhammed came after Christ, and the Bible teaches that Christ is God in the flesh and lives in the heart of those who choose to follow him. Both used force to take land, but the Bible had a dramatic change take place. At Christ coming (New Testament), God seems to become much more grace filled, forgiving people once and for all. By accepting and believing the teachings of Christ in the heart, one has forgiveness forever, compared to Gods need to continually having to forgive people over and over again by blood sacrifice (Old Testament).

The Koran never had any changes in position of Allahs view of mankind. He ordained people to work for acceptance into heaven, and the shedding of blood was acceptable as penalty or as a means of furthering the religion. The New Testament never taught the shedding of blood was acceptable after Christ came, his blood shed on the cross was enough.

Ok some big comparisons of the two largest world religions, some similarities and differences.

Overall, the biggest difference for this discussion is that Muslims are still ordained to move thru out the land by force if need be to advance the kingdom of Allah on the earth. This never changed, and the radical Muslim is doing what he understands to be righteous, and he will be rewarded in heaven if he died in the process (Holy War). Since Muslims never actually know if they have done enough to gain Allahs favour, they have one knowledge, if they die in a Holy War situation it means entrance to heaven will be obtained and they will be rewarded with 70+ virgin wives. Sounds pretty good for hopeless ole Muslim soul who only wants to do what is right in the name of Allah.

That is the primary reason why they can strap on bombs and die. Their reward is a sure bet according to the strictest teaching of the Imams who teach by every word of the Koran and Hadith. A letter proving what I am saying came out of Iraq earlier this year from an Imam, though it was obtained somehow by the press, it was not publicly broadcast.

So what I'm saying is this, Islam is spreading. Faster than Christianity by some reports. Immigration is a means of the same. It is a passive way to advance the kingdom of Allah, since the world would never allow any Muslim nation to overthrow another nation. For example, how Saddam invaded Kuwait in 1990. Muslims have always used protest as a means of making their needs known, and they participate in large numbers. Violence is often a part of the protest.

I think what we are seeing in France is only a precursor to the future for Europe. The spread of democracy in the Middle East is the only true hope the world has against this foe. And I'm not sure if that will even work honestly, by the shear fact that in Islamic countries they will kill each other in the name of Allah, both sides believing the same as I have mentioned above.

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[quote=mixu]Oh I don't know... you always say something ridiculous and then something intelligent in response. Hats off.[/quote]

:lol: LOL!

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There is no God or Gods. Religion and money are the root of all evil and the reason for most wars. If adults would stop brainwashing their children with religion the world would be a better and more peacefull place.

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[quote=srbbnd]There is no God or Gods. Religion and money are the root of all evil and the reason for most wars. If adults would stop brainwashing their children with religion the world would be a better and more peacefull place.[/quote]

Well, your comments are taken as understandable, especially in light of what we all see happening around the world. But we all have a need for something in our lives. To fill that empty whole. Some put drugs, sex, and/or rock-n-roll. Some put God. Some put making money and work. To each his own!

Life is hard enough, but without a God well where would we all be?:)

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I guess we all have are addictions to fill the voids. I think its innovation and science that has put us where we are, and not spiritual beliefs. Sex, drugs, music are usually not the reasons for large scale wars or genecide. However, I can't really say much on beliefs, believing in not to believe in a God.

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We all believe in something, even if its believing in not believing in God!