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[quote=anglathammaroth]not muslims! Terrorists...[/quote]

Is it political correctness to make this statement? or is it a fact?

List the conflicts around the globe and list the terrorist activity separately. You will see a common thread of similarity with the two list.

PC or Fact.

What is the problem with mentioning facts?

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[quote=runningman]I didn't mean to fix there country for them. They need to do it themselves. Why don't the Saudi Princes give there money away to help the[B] extreme [/B]poverty that is there in those countries. -...- All I am asking is where will it be next.[/quote]

I don't know about the Saudi's but I know someone pays off the families of those guys who strap on the bombs and die in the name of allah. Saddam was one of the leaders paying the families of Palestians a sum as compensation for their noble death, death in a holy war is to honored in Islam.

Where next, luckily Australia stopped a biggy last week. Jordan just got hit, and their govt have been on the helping side of the Western countries.

Someone please tell the parents of these 3 christian school girls who were beheaded that their children in Indonesia did not die in the name of Islam by terrorist whose goal is to purge the country of Christianity. 2 very short reports: [URL="http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=700&id=2173232005"]http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=700&id=2173232005[/URL] or tell the parents of a toddler who died in a market bombing in a Christian town. [URL="http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=700&id=587972005"]http://news.scotsman.com/topics.cfm?tid=700&id=587972005[/URL]

and just for a touch of balance read a 2 minute page on this Hindu site about the same attack on the Christian market, and tell these people its not about Islam. [URL="http://www.globalgoodnews.com/world-peace-a.html?art=11173873148953881"]http://www.globalgoodnews.com/world-peace-a.html?art=11173873148953881[/URL]

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What, are you comparing that to what's happening in France? Man....i cannot believe that. Even if some Muslim groups are trying to 'feed' the riots for their cause, they are in no way the most important factor, just a small group trying to bend it to their advantage. Show me the blogs you guys were talking about.

I know a lot of Americans resent Europeans for their 'weak' attitude: well...at least history has taught us to make more distinctions in the world than just 'We vs the Muslims'.

You guys seriously dissapoint me. Try and educate yourself a bit before just putting the blame on Muslims again.

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[B]I don't expect anyone to appreciate what I am about to say but do you guys realize the amount of ignorance and dare I say it racism in your posts?[/B]

This is far from being only muslims and if you guys had any clue you would know that unfortunately this whole car burning thing is not a new tradition here. I've been living in the Strasbourg/Mulhouse area for 10 months and around these parts they have a yearly contest around new years as to which city burns the most cars. Pityful I know.

Unto the muslims or the whole conflict you must realize it is in no way shape or form organized. Little teenage boys aren't being enrolled to make molotov cocktails and throw them in cars. And there's also been a number of leaders in the muslim community to have stood up to say no to the riots admitiddly it not being all that succesful in stopping the conflict.

Lastly while I'm not trying to justify in any way shape or form the rioting and the savage behavior of the people committing these crimes it is vital to first understand the root of a problem before going any further.

Discrimination, and not simply religion or skin colour based is a very prominent thing affecting all levels of society. Education as a whole is a flawed system were only few of the best can succeed. Welfare is a lifestyle that many depend on. Social progression, or the elevation of the status of living is non existent today; in the past it was the son who was going to be the first in his family to complete school or own a house, today he will be the first in his family to be endebted.

Also keep in mind that the media only shows a brief portion of what is going on. So many people seem to forget that and swallow every single word as the absolute and full facts.

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:RockOn:

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i think if anyone is really interested in this topic they should watch a movie called "Hate (La Haine)" it will open up your eyes a little to some of the stuff that goes on in French ghettos and on life in general

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^^ forgot about that movie, it's a powerful one. thanks for bringing it up

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Glad to hear someone bring up the movie La Haine ( which is btw 10 years old ). One of my favorite movies of all times and it's truly representative of the whole situation and just to give you a brief idea it involved a white jewish guy, some algerian guy and an african guy for the main cast.

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Sometimes I think Yao is the only one making any sense... why do people think everything boils to one issue all the time? And that the world is so simple? :roll:

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:oops:

Thanks Mixu....I just simply try to grasp all the aspects of a case or a problem: simplifying something in order to make it easier to understand is always a tempting option, but it does no right to the complexity of most problems, and therefore any solution or opinion derived from a too much simplified case can never be satisfactory IMO...

On the other hand I've also learned a great deal from people on this section, for which I am very thankful. And I just love the discussions here too, especially on the edge :D

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Thanks Mixu....I just simply try to grasp all the aspects of a case or a problem: simplifying something in order to make it easier to understand is always a tempting option, but it does no right to the complexity of most problems, and therefore any solution or opinion derived from a too much simplified case can never be satisfactory IMO...

On the other hand I've also learned a great deal from people on this section, for which I am very thankful. And I just love the discussions here too, especially on the edge :D[/quote]

Agreed.^^^^^^^^^

Apparently these problems in Fance have been going on for over 40 years.

The media would have you believe that this has all started since 9/11 or that Al Qaida had something to do with it.

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Yea. And that pisses me off. What pisses me off even more is that some people are totally unwilling to do a little historical research in order to realise that, and just keep hammering that bloody Evil-Muslim-Terrorist agade...

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Most would rather have it served to them in bowl and then have it fed to them with a shovel.

"That's a good little doggy, keep eating till that bowl is empty"

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[quote=dig72]Agreed.^^^^^^^^^

Apparently these problems in Fance have been going on for over 40 years.

The media would have you believe that this has all started since 9/11 or that Al Qaida had something to do with it.[/quote]

Yes exactly.

Riots as well as striking and most forms of civil unrest are rather common in France.

There's even a riot dedicated police task force ( I'm sure other countries do as well ) that's rather large just to keep up with the constant mess.

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maybe if the governments stop helping and giving breaks to the poor, then they will learn to help themselves. cruel, but catering to people only makes them get lazy and take advantage of the situation. tell them tough shit, this is how we do it here, live by our rules or move back to wherever you came from and make it better there. obviously you want it the way it is there, so GO BACK>

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Uh....Sightless...

You might wanna give a few books that explain the interaction between states and civil society a try. Joel Migdal wrote a good one that is actually directed towards 3rd world development problems, but it is in many aspect also appliccable to modern society:

Joel S. Migdal: State in Society (studying how states and societies transform and constitute one another)

Integration in not a one way road dude...and from a lot of example you can see that most immigrants in a country will take the chance to do so, if offered the right instruments to do it (education, social status, future prospects). YES, they need to be facilitated to a certain extent, otherwise the impetus to integrate won't ever appear in their minds.

You see...they don't want it to be as it was back home. They came there with the hopes for a BETTER life, but the opportunities they got were jack shit. I don't know, but France has a pretty bad record when it comes to adapting itself: in it's whole history it has always forced other cultures to adapt themselves to France. Maybe it's time they realize that the time they could do that is gone, and that they seriously need to go through a fundamental change and start creating the conditions in which newcomers can finally get a change to create a place for themselves in French society.

Once you give them the chance to call something a true home, people will fight for it you know. Some states just seem to forget that sometimes.

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i was beginning to believe dance music fans were dumb until Yao and jdat spoke.

Glad to see some sanity on this board, even though in the minority.

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Yao the Irish and Italians came to North America with absolutely nothing. We made it just fine. I am sure they can make it if they would ever work. The problem is they don't want to work.

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Yeah sure, why not repeat those ethnically based clashes until they finally secure a place in civic society thru violence. Great. I don't recollect the Irish and Italians being welcomed with open arms, do you?

And moving from the urbanized regions to Canada all they saw was the indigenous people, who got swept aside just as easily. You're making the wrong equation here dude, although it might seem logical from your point of view. And if you had seen only snippets of the interviews with a few of those rioters out there, you'd have know that they're fucking pissed for not getting the chance to work. They're being discriminated really badly, and all they can get is lousy ass jobs or none at all.

Just see on TV that Chirac is making pledges to adress the situation in the Banlieues, providing education and help for the youngsters out there. Hope he keeps it, because it's damn necessary.

Sarkozy should keep his mouth shut, and start diving into some of the causes of this all instead simply adressing the symptoms with muscle language, it won't solve shit.

Seriously Runningman...the world ain't just red and grean laserbeams, there's a whole lo more colours ;)

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[quote=runningman]Yao the Irish and Italians came to North America with absolutely nothing. We made it just fine. I am sure they can make it if they would ever work. The problem is they don't want to work.[/quote]

agreed

everyone who came to america came with nothing early on.

its the ""look at me, im stuck in a bad place in life, help me"" attitude that fucks it all up. yes there are places in central africa where they are pretty much fucked in terms of getting a great education and moving on, but elsewhere, i have no pity. to stick it to this topic, these fuckers in france ruining life for the rest, well go back to morocco where you can beat your wife if someone sees her in public, where you cant do shit without your imam's consent, etc etc. seriously, france invited you to thier country, not questioning shit, giving you an oppurtunity to ""[B][U]try[/U][/B]"" not to sit in your shitty neighborhood and whine about how the gov't ignores you. go out and get a job, save money move on, put your kids in school and make them study. god this thread is turning me into cartman. fucking equality BS. we can offer it, we shouldnt force it. if they dont wanna better their lives, then too bad for them. sad thing is, if this goes down a worse path, the same ppl who want us to understand why we should treat everyone better and help make thier lives better will be the same ppl picketing the UN and the USA when troops are sent in to stop violence and corrupt gov't.

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and screw a lot of that IMO.

you come to my house, you adapt to my rules, not the other way around.

1. we all know its a few bad eggs. anyone who thinks its the entire muslim population based in france is a moron.
2. it is a social problem. but one that those ppl in the heart of it must fight first.
3. social intregration, and interaction have nothing to do with gov't. they fight each other a lot, and cross paths, but shouldnt be intermingled IMO, unless gov't policy is actively being violated in an attempt to prevent social integration (alabama colleges).

and as for not getting the chance to work, psssht. where in the world are they buying food, housing materials anything required to live??? no one GAVE runningman the oppurtunity to invent something, he went out, and did it. just as Yao attends university, no one told you to go, no one actively recruited you(barring scholarships), you knew enough to go out and find a place to work, study etc

i cant wait to go to europe so i can get really stoned with Yao in a coffe shop and chit chat it up..

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[quote=thesightless]maybe if the governments stop helping and giving breaks to the poor, then they will learn to help themselves. cruel, but catering to people only makes them get lazy and take advantage of the situation. tell them tough shit, this is how we do it here, live by our rules or move back to wherever you came from and make it better there. obviously you want it the way it is there, so GO BACK>[/quote]

[quote=thesightless] and as for not getting the chance to work, psssht. where in the world are they buying food, housing materials anything required to live??? no one GAVE runningman the oppurtunity to invent something, he went out, and did it. just as Yao attends university, no one told you to go, no one actively recruited you(barring scholarships), you knew enough to go out and find a place to work, study etc[/quote]

I'm sorry but I can't help but point out the contradiction in these two different posts.

Keep in mind that a lot of the young generation lives at home. Coincidentially this not apply exclusively to the so called ghetto crowds no more then it corresponds to the poorly educated. It affects many many different levels of society here.

Salaries as a whole tend to be a joke in France and a lot of people have no alternatives then to stay living in the family home when they grow up cause they can't make a decent salary.

Lastly, I'm not making the assumption that you might particurlaly believe this, but some people in the US think that those on welfare are a bunch of lazy people etc. Now picture a nation of welfare seekers and you'll begin to have a small vision of what France is like. So many people are in situations were they make more money on welfare then if they would be working.

It's a system that is flawed to the root and doesn't give a natural instinct to aspire to a higher calling or to try and evolves one's lifestyle.

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i still dont feel bad. its up to them to get out or develope thier own areas just like the immigrants of america did when the welfare system did not exist and things were actually harder.

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I found this article quite succinct...

[quote] 'If there is no struggle, there is no progress," said the African American abolitionist Frederick Douglass. "Those who profess to favour freedom and yet depreciate agitation are men who want crops without ploughing up the ground; they want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its many waters ... Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will."

By the end of last week it looked as though the fortnight of struggle between minority French youth and the police might actually have yielded some progress. Condemning the rioters is easy. They shot at the police, killed an innocent man, trashed businesses, rammed a car into a retirement home, and torched countless cars (given that 400 cars are burned on an average New Year's Eve in France, this was not quite as remarkable as some made out).

But shield your ears from the awful roaring waters for a moment and take a look at the ocean. Those who wondered what French youth had to gain by taking to the streets should ask what they had to lose. Unemployed, socially excluded, harassed by the police and condemned to poor housing, they live on estates that are essentially open prisons. Statistically invisible (it is against the law and republican principle to collect data based on race or ethnicity) and politically unrepresented (mainland France does not have a single non-white MP), their aim has been simply to get their plight acknowledged. And they succeeded. [/quote]

...

[quote] And the reality is that none of this would have happened without riots. There was no petition these young people could have signed, no peaceful march they could have held, no letter they could have written to their MPs that would have produced these results.

Amid the charred chassis and broken glass there is a vital point of principle to salvage: in certain conditions rioting is not just justified but may also be necessary, and effective. From the poll tax demonstrations to Soweto, history is littered with such cases; what were the French and American revolutions but riots endowed by Enlightenment principles and then blessed by history?

When all non-violent, democratic means of achieving a just end are unavailable, redundant or exhausted, rioting is justifiable. When state agencies charged with protecting communities fail to do so or actually attack them, it may be necessary in self-defence.

After the 1967 riots in American cities, President Johnson set up the Kerner commission. It concluded: "What white Americans have never fully understood ? but what the Negro can never forget ? is that white society is deeply implicated in the ghetto. White institutions created it, white institutions maintain it, and white society condones it." How else was such a damning indictment of racial discrimination in the US ever going to land on the president's desk? [/quote] [url]www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1641907,00.html[/url]

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:RockOn:

Now cut the bullshit about them having to simply 'go to work' please. If it were that easy, there would be no ghettos.

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it is that easy, its the people who are stupid and dont realize what it means to support themselves.

dumb analogy about ppl not realizing what ""the real world takes""

NBA just instituted a dress code. a lot of the more ""ghetto"" and ""gansta"" players cried about it. some said they wouldnt obey it until the penalties came out. they still bitched. Charles Barkely said it succinctly ""if i own a business and interview 2 kids, equally qualified, one a white kid in a suit and the other a black kid in a do-rag , a basketball jersay and baggy pants, who's gonnna get the job""

it is about knowing what it takes and working to it, not the other way around. plenty of GENIUSes and wealthy ppl come from terrible areas. they knew what it took to work hard and bust your ass. i have zero pity for ppl who remain in the ghettos only feeling bad for themselves and looking for someone to help them.

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Spend some time there, read some research and then you'll know how hard people try dude. Those people that have actually made it big, coming from the ghetto are not the only ones that actually 'wanted to make something of their lives'. I'm kinda beginning to understand why the US has so many ghetto's: I'm sorry to say this, but simply neglecting causes of it and just telling them to go to work is the most fucked-up attitude towards this problem you can have dude.

That is the problem with many US peepz IMO: their attitude. And it has lead to one of most inequally didvided income scales on the planet. You always think you can make it if you work hard enough for it. Well, sorry to tell you this, but that is a dreamworld you're living in. In the real world, you see, people are being held back by a score of other circumstances than just their work-ethics. US society is still pretty racistic to begin with, and the non-existent social system doesn't make things much better. That's what you get when crime and drugs make easier and more money than a legal job dude. Who wants to spend their life working in a fucking Burger King? Not me, and certainly not those people in the Ghettos.

Please, do some serious reading about it, because I'm not going to answer any posts of this kind anymore: it cripples the discussion and keeps us from trying to probe into the problematics of what's taking place in France in the first place.

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this is beginning to show the difference in the nations we grew up in. capitalist vs socialist. i, beng from the US, have the, work for it and earn it attitude, while Yao has the help em out attitude. neither is wrong or right, just differences in views. but it shines through a bit huh./

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Hold it there...

I may be of a different viewpoint, but the last thing I'm saying that we should cuddle them to death, allright? It's the person him/herself that gets a job and education in the end. What HAS to be done thru state intervention is to fight circumstances in a nation that create inequal chances among people where they are clearly not strong enough to do it themselves: in fact, the behaviour of the state and a few of it's branches are at the root of this problem. Hence it is the state's responsability to adress these issues and thus help create a more 'equal field of play'...that's it.

Somehow you guys seem to equate socialism to stupid samaritanism...I can't believe that. I truly think, for the first time on this board the fundamental differences are showing now, this points out the lack of insight in European politics even better than has been show in our discussions on the US elections last year. Damn I'm astonished, truthfully astonished.

And yes, the state plays a bigger role over here, which has until now led to a much more equal division of jobs/national income per capita (also ethnically divided), and also significantly less ghetto?sation than in the US (not saying they're not here at all, France is the worst case around here).

But i do agree, neither is wrong or right mate. I just feel you and a lot of others could use a little more education on how things work here...maybe this could be a nice starting point for that ;) It might bring us a bit closer to each other too...

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[quote=thesightless] these fuckers in france ruining life for the rest, well go back to morocco where you can beat your wife if someone sees her in public, where you cant do shit without your imam's consent, etc[/quote] agreed. I have the same view on the problem. it could happen now almost everywhere. These events in France started exactcly after end of ramadan. I'm pretty sure that there were some forces that pushed masses.

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[url]http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/europe/11/06/france.riots.fatwa.reut/index.html[/url]

read

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[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Paris_suburb_riots[/url]

read some more.

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OF COURSE the prominent public people are going to issue fatwahs against the rioting..... they also issued ones against terror attacks, and the insurgency in iraq, and the taleban ... they all worked well right?

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lol

just get the message behind it, although i do concur that it is mostly PR work there ;)

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^^ have you ever heard of saying one thing and doing another..

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im not going to drink this weekend, even though i have a free pass to spirit i think with open bar..........

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lol

FYI

A Fatwa is something that will be obeyed without hesitation by true Muslims, don't forget that. It's a holy duty, so if it were radicals alone rioting, the riots would've stopped a lot sooner. Pretty much proves to me that Muslims my have tried to feed the fire, but the real rioters had nothing to do with that. Anyhow, I'm not gonne react on that bullshit about Muslims anyway. Back the 'lazy people issue', which i strongly oppose. For that, the first link was meant to be read.

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we call them the real muslims, but is al zaquarwi a fictional creation? they are all real msulims, some are sinister, some are wonderful human beings. but they let the sinister ones operate at will rather than rooting out their problems from teh heart

and that shows a similar problem, there is no central authority for them. they dont know who to obey. each sect has its own leader and does exactly what you dsaid accordingly. one imam says kill americans, and others say keep peace......

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[QUOTE=thesightless]there is no central authority for them[/QUOTE]

I'm going to reveal some ignorance here (certainly not the first time) -- does Islam have a "Pope-like" figure? Someone who heads up and speaks for the faith?

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Good question, it all depends on the Islamic 'sect' you belong to. This coming from you guys, i cannot image that with these riots some of you insisted in blaming it on the 'Muslims'...

Anyway, for any revivalist/fundamentalist/militant Muslim the Iranian Ayatollah will in most cases serve as a 'pope' or supreme authority. For the others, it usually a bit different, prolly more locally placed.