HorizonForumsone horizon
Log inSign up

[ms] · Est. May 2002

Music madethis place,we just kept itgoing...

One durable person. One social graph. Many communities—and every way people speak, share, listen, write, gather and remember.

Forums / Politics

Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

135 durable postsStarted 2005-08-11Latest 2013-10-26
#461722Post 41 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Wwwwhhhhhhhoaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!

Now that is some good dialogue. And I appreciate it. Eye-P, Superdave, and Neoee, I'm glad you guys could make some comments which took some thought, and on Neoee - some serious digging. Thanks, I'm thinking now, where before all I could hear was garbage.

So, you have made me look in a little deeper, and desire to examine the cases more. It will be interesting for sure, and it is important.

Some real shit has gone down, and I'm not putting it past Bush -W to have allowed it to have a reason to take out Saddam. I don't think it would have been for his dad, as many like to say. I think he is more intelligent than that, and his dad did exactly what he said he would do. But more I truly believe Bush-W may have allowed this tragedy for the sake of giving reason to not only go after Bin Laden and Saddam, but more to gain military ground in the middle east. That from a stragetic point, and give freedom to the region as a mute point initially and stronger point later, all which is true. People will be freed from tyranny, but at a cost, which the middle easterners understand and are not afraid of like we are in the West.

I also believe there is much we simply cannot be told.

What if by allowing this attack, and taking the war to the middle east, Bush really did save the US from having all out warfare on American soil. We have to give some credit that not one attack has happened since, yet it seems sure they will hit again.

#461736Post 42 of 135

Rob- I know not many people would agree with me but I truly believe that 9/11 was either allowed to happen or done by our own govt. Although I don't think Bush was behind it, to me he is just the puppet. Look at the PNAC members. They tried to urge Clinton to go to war with Iraq in an open letter which is still on their website. If you look at the list of members its scary to see where they are now. Cheney is the head of PNAC. On their own website you find mention of the need for a "catalyzing even, like another Pearl Harbor".

Its really worth checking out the 9/11 timeline at [url]http://www.cooperativeresearch.org[/url] . The picture painted with news events isn't a pretty one. Especially with all the practice excercises that took place prior to 9/11. Thing like the sale of the towers shortly before, the removal of security and bomb sniffing dogs just 5 days before the attacks. Norad's northern vigilance which left our skys unprotected, FEMA being set up for an excercise in NY on Sept. 10, the mock Pentagon excercises which simulated a plane hitting it coupled with the fact that the wing of the Pentagon that was hit was under construction and mostly empty. Even a town neighboring the one that the plane went down in the field, had a simulation, predicting, for lack of a better word, the events that took place on 9/11. You don't have to believe me. As a matter of fact I urge you to draw your own conclusions. But the picture is easily drawn if you just look at the timeline.

Now all you guys probably think I'm a nut. :youdork:

#461744Post 43 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Neoee- You are not nuts. You are exactly correct.

9/11 was 1 of 2 things:

  1. LIHOP= let it happen on purpose

  2. MIHOP= made it happen on purpose

If people believe that 19 hi-jackers(6 whom are still alive) outwitted the entire US armed forces and intelligence community, then they are delusional.

PNAC is hiding in plain sight.

[url]www.newamericancentury.org[/url]

The real conspiracy theory is the "official" story.

However, people in the US are too concerned with Natolee Halloway, or Scott Peterson, or whatever, to notice that we have been lulled into a trance.

More information can be found @:

[url]www.fromthewilderness.com[/url] [url]www.endofsuburbia.com[/url]

#461768Post 44 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

That last website paints a pretty dark and one-sided picture my friend (but damn wish I had enough money to subscribe to FTW).

Oil maybe part of the motives, but I certainly do not believe that it was the sole reason for going into Iraq. Iraq really was a liability for the Middle East, and even if there have not been real WMD findings, even the UN acknowledged that Saddam was most likely waiting for the sanctions to be lifted so he could restart his program (Saddam had a real fascination for those weapons, it has been documented before). In the meantime, he used emotional blackmail to have the resolutions amended in such a way that he could use them against his own people (simply by making his government the distributor of all the money and goods flows). But he started to make big mistakes by constantly frustrating all efforts from the UN to ameliorate things for the Iraqi people, or for example the weapons inspections. The sanctions we a weapon in his hand, so there were 2 options in the end for the UN: leave him alone and run the risk of him going berserk or finally get rid of the guy forever.

Stupid Europe was for using the tissue as usual, and the US was for the permanent solution. That a little more control of oil resources came with that, was a nice bonus to say the least, but it may not have been the prime motive for going in. I think the interests were combined.

Furthermore, with all this speculation and drawing conclusions: I've come to one myself today:

It doesn't matter whatever conclusion I come up with, because it is my experience that every time when I draw one from the information that I have at my disposal, I meet and talk to someone in the higher echelons of politics, or I read from them, and they tell me things that without exception turn all my information, thoughts and conclusions upside down, simply because they have key information (or at least a little part of it) that I have not. Everytime when I think I know something, I hear something which makes me realize that in fact I really don't know anything when it comes to global politics. But I try to grasp the little bits and pieces I can get my hands on though.

#461790Post 45 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

I do question and begin to believe Bush is a puppet of the Saudis and the big oil companies here in the U.S. The U.S. oil companies have produced record financial results the last couple of years and the Saudis keep increasing production in turn increasing their wealth.

I also think that 9/11 was a golden opportunity to take care of Saddam and Iraq once and for all. You wonder if the war room was similar to the film "Wag the Dog" when people in the Bush camp invented reasons to invade Iraq. It's interesting that Iraq became a target of the U.S. considering the hijackers were mostly Saudis.

The Saudis and the oil companies knew that the price of oil would sky rocket and they would only benefit. Plus, Halliburton could make big profits rebuilding the country. Now, Bush is on his 5-week vacation on his ranch here in Texas with gas prices higher than ever and chaos in Iraq. His lengthy vacation alone tells me that he thinks things may be going according to plan. His plan of course, to keep oil prices high, distract the public with the War on Terror while real villians rob us at the pump, and a presence in the Middle East to protect oil interests especially in Saudi Arabia.

So, who's the bad guys? Bin Laden, Saudis, or Bush. Maybe all of them.

#461960Post 46 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[img]http://www.souverainete-france.org/images/photos/saddam-rumsfeld.jpg[/img]

#462043Post 47 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=Jenks][img]http://www.souverainete-france.org/images/photos/saddam-rumsfeld.jpg[/img][/quote]

This pic was taken at a meeting where the US sold Iraq chemical weapons, which he then used against Iran.

Not sure what this has to do with 9/11 though?

#462064Post 48 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

It doesn't have anything to do with 9.11.

I just like to post pictures.

#462434Post 49 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Jenk likes pictures. I like Jenks avator, cracks me up everytime.

Yao, I do follow what your saying about the changes in information turning you upside down. I find the same to be true.

I will follow the links provided soon, I'm curious what you guys have found.

One question though. I havent heard anyone mention the anti-terrorist group 'able danger'. Or the fact, that the 9/11 commission completely left their information out to the report. If they were a true govt group and the facts they have released are true, it spits in the face of the 9/11 report as valid. Who knows? I threw in some links for your interest.

[url]http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05226/553271.stm[/url] [url]http://www.homelandsecurityus.com/abledanger.asp[/url] [url]http://www.cia.gov/cia/information/eo12333.html[/url] [url]http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/005191.php[/url] [url]http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/national/AP-Sept-11-Hijackers.html?hp&ex=1123819200&en=75c8bf9eafed684c&ei=5094&partner=homepage[/url] [url]http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2005_08/006886.php[/url]

or just follow this google link for more, if you want...
[url]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=able+danger&btnG=Google+Search[/url]

A quote from the homelandsecurity link.

'' ?Able Danger?: The American People Should Demand Answers Questions of Legal Issues, Intelligence Oversight and Sharing of Collected Intelligence from US SOCOM that ARE NOT being asked By Sean Osborne, Senior Analyst & Military Affairs Expert

11 August 2005: As we reported yesterday, Congressman Curt Weldon (R-PA) delivered to his peers in Congress on 27 June, 2005 revelations and evidence gained by a secret military intelligence entity, Code Name: ?Able Danger? a full year prior to the events of September 11, 2001. (See article below). According to Congressman Weldon, and as reported by FoxNews yesterday, "Lawyers within the administration ? and we're talking about the Clinton administration, not the Bush administration ? said 'you can't do it'" when referencing the ?taking out? of a known terrorist cell that would be the main component of the 9/11 attacks. These ?lawyers? then placed 3M Post-It brand stickers over Mohammed Atta's face. In my professional opinion, the words and actions taken by these lawyers were the beginning of a literal, real-world cover-up which would result in the deaths of 2,819 innocent human beings. "

#462448Post 50 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

The 9/11 commission report is the new Warren commission report; i.e.- it is a snowjob, a whitewash.

Google David Ray Griffin. :shock:

#462455Post 51 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Google Big Rubber Fist!

#462509Post 52 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

lol. ^^ extremerestraints.com

. it is sad that none of our agencies had either 1. the lack of capacity, 2. lack of will or 3. had their hands tied up b/c of ACLU style restrictions... to deal with any of the shit RP posted. if i were in that classroom with the kid saying what he said, id be the asshole taking things into my own hands.

there is a story out there from Long Beach, Long island, where a guy who worked in the towers was begged by his neighbor of middle eastern descent to help the guy move on the 11th. he begged and begged, so the guy took off from work. he woke up on 9/11 at about 8am, saw the neighbor was already gone from the night before, and decided to get in his car after looking in the windows and seeing the house cleaned out. by the time he got back from the deli, the towers had been hit. the neighbor long gone hasnt been found. his name was fake. FBI doesnt know his whereabouts. the nieghbor saved his life.

another one that got swept under the rug is a bay ridge, brooklyn isalmic society for some reason had a 7AM meeting at thier offices. normally, they only meet in the evening and on weekends. on 9/11, they were seen partying inside the offices, cheering and dancing. fortunetly, a group of carpenters working were working next door. they saw this as they were making thier way out of the building to thier cars, and beat a dozen of the members, and killed one before the already occupied police could arrive. the isalmic society(i cant find thier name, i forget) now receives police protection for their weekly meetings. :|

#462544Post 53 of 135

What does this picture have to do with clinton or 911?

#462553Post 54 of 135

[quote=rewing3]What does [b]this [/b]picture have to do with clinton or 911?[/quote]

what picture?

#462584Post 55 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote]It doesn't have anything to do with 9.11.

I just like to post pictures.[/quote]

i thought it was my job.

#462705Post 56 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=Jenks]Google Big Rubber Fist![/quote]

Jenks with your avator dancing, I'm afraid to know what that link might 'pop up'. :lol:

#462706Post 57 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Well sightlesss, I can follow some of what you say, but it still seems to me that Clinton had a bit more of an opportunity to curb the threats of 9/11. There is some interesting details in this link: [url]http://www.judicialwatch.org/[/url]

If you go there, follow the couple links in the paragraph for more info., one of which is an old copy of some report in a .pdf file format, another is a video.

It seems probable that Bush knew something was coming, but Clinton actually had the capability to 'nip it in the bud'.

Btw, the Long Island story is interesting. I bet alot of middle eastern people were 'in the know'. If so, than the Bush Adm. had to have ample info also if the intelligence was working.

Only one other point. If you remember with the Clinton Adm. the CIA was cut down in many ways. So was the military. I remember also when the head of CIA changed under Bush, he said it would 5 years before they would be back up to where they had been in the past. If that is so, maybe there were such problems in the organization that communication and other problems existed which stopped the process from working as it had in the past.

Just a thought. :?

#462720Post 58 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=robprunzit][quote=Jenks]Google Big Rubber Fist![/quote]

Jenks with your avator dancing, I'm afraid to know what that link might 'pop up'. :lol:[/quote]

what link? in my sig? that's the promotion roster im on.

or are you talking about Big Rubber Fist.

two words..

Doug Stanhope.

re: clinton...

he definitely had the opportunity to "nip it in the bud" and he failed on that part miserably.

am i wrong in hearing he had the chance to get bin laden, and decided not to? had his location, informants, etc, and just didn't act?

#462737Post 59 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Yeah, I was referring the the rubber fist. scary :shock:

Doug Stanhope [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doug_Stanhope[/url]

re:Clinton

From the voice of Clinton at a fund raiser or some function, someone asked him the question about Bin Laden, and he made the comment that Sudan had him and wanted to pass him to the US, but he (Clinton) didn't feel they had enough evidence to hold him, so he (Clinton) tried to get the Saudi's to take him, ''but they thought he was too much of a hot potatoe'' (Clinton said), so Afghanistan took him ...

I've heard a few other things on this but I cant remember the details, but officially according to a Fox Report and the links of other sites which detail the accounts ... they should have had him.

[url]http://search.foxnews.com/_1_EC2UIR0495LKMB__info.foxnws/search/web/Clinton%2Band%2BBin%2BLaden[/url]

But, who really knows? :|

#462799Post 60 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=robprunzit]

It seems probable that Bush knew something was coming, but Clinton actually had the capability to 'nip it in the bud'.

Btw, the Long Island story is interesting. I bet alot of middle eastern people were 'in the know'. If so, than the Bush Adm. had to have ample info also if the intelligence was working.

?[/quote] Slight Conspiracy Theory--hell it is/was a conspiracy. maybe he didnt. maybe those terrorists were aware of who would be a prime target for US intel. maybe, just maybe they had the wherewithall to send people here simply to act like a normal US citizen in every way(jobs, family, community), with a simple, yet underground way of communicating to those who were willing to kill themselves in planes or trucks. maybe they were and still are ahead of us. they are familiar with our laws and liberties, maybe so much that they knew we cannot simply trace all middle eastern peoples phone calls and communications.....

tim mc veigh got all those explosives to the building. and no one had a clue about him. imagine 500 tim mcveighs. its fucked up.

also , on a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT SIDENOTE>(re:Iraq) [url]http://www.damnfunnypictures.com/html/Hidden-Iraqi-Jet.html[/url] this never once hit the media..... i wonder why. :?: they hid that thing pretty well, we found it on accident. now do we think that just maybe they could hide things that are small enough to housed under it???? just use common sense. replies to PM's plz. i dont wanna hijack thread.

#462857Post 61 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Why would they bury ONE jet? :? Jets aren't in violation of any international treaty.

This looks made up to me. Like it could have gone down something like this:

"Private Johnson, we've got orders for you and Private Smith to go bury that Iraqi jet." "We're going to dig it up a few months later so the American public will think, 'Oh, those sneaky iraqis, i'll bet they buried the WMDs too!, i'll bet they bury EVERYTHING!' "

Or the Iraqi's really do bury everything, and in the desert somewhere are mounds of weapons, jets, and picnic baskets and other stuff.

#462964Post 62 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

we will never know. in my opinion they obviously hid the jet, these things just don t get lost. they cost hundreds of millions per each one. all i am saying is that there very well might be shit hidden somewhere. emphasize might. not saying deinetly, not saying no way. shit we found a jet. it isnt small. just might. :? sorry for hijack.

#462969Post 63 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

screw the hijack, this wasn't going anywhere anyway, lol..

so answer me this...

"Why hide a jet?"

#462993Post 64 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

dude, i dont know why. im a CPA in NYC. not an iraqi military official. my army experience is forensic accounting. i am just saying maybe. the fact that the jet was hidden is there. its possible something smaller might be hidden too.

only arguing the ""maybe"". nothing else.

#463002Post 65 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

maybe i crapped my pants, maybe i didn't, i'm no forensic accountant, my only expertise is in wondering why they buried a jet in the desert. Suspect on OUR part, not theirs imo.

:P

#463034Post 66 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Hey sightless, thanks for the comments. Though you probably know I follow your reasoning very far. One thing for sure, I'm glad to hear at least 'question' in your dialogue. No one really knows anything about what Bush knew or didn't know, or how those fu#$ers could get away with such an incredible plan. But, they did it, and probably will again, even though it will be harder for them next time. We will get slack, as always, and they will hit us, and we will start the blame game all over again.

Did Bush know, I really don't think so, but who knows for sure. Could Clinton have changed the scope of things ... definitely!

I do think the terrorist are ahead of us though. I heard a month ago that they have a way of sending info in the form of files over the internet thru Ebay with some encrypted passworded something-er-another. Sounded new to me. So hopefully our guys can figure it out faster than the bad guys know we are in their heads.

Oh btw, that site you linked for the jet pix is a bad site. It loads bad stuff in your computer. One of my blockers when freaking crazy and shut down my browzers completely. Thats a good thing though, cause I have had too virus bugs in the past year. So be careful bro. The pix were great though, and I still believe the poisons are out there somewhere. Much easier to hide that crap than a jet.

#463035Post 67 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=Jenks]maybe i crapped my pants, maybe i didn't, i'm no forensic accountant, my only expertise is in wondering why they buried a jet in the desert. Suspect on OUR part, not theirs imo.

:P[/quote]

I doubt we actually had anything to do with this. My guess is someone/group from Saddam's forces saw things going to shit and basically thought they might be able to sell this off an make a buck once things settled down. If [i]we[/i] were going to bury anything it would probably be a nuke or chemical weapons so we could go 'Look, we found WMD's!'.

#463040Post 68 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Anyways back to the original subject. Rob I think you understimate what Clinton's administration was doing and how much sleeping Bush's was doing:

[quote]Early 2001: Bush Staffers Less Concerned with Terrorism

Clinton and Bush staff overlap for several months while new Bush appointees are appointed and confirmed. Clinton holdovers seem more concerned about al-Qaeda than the new Bush staffers. For instance, according to a colleague, Sandy Berger, Clinton's National Security Adviser, had become ?totally preoccupied? with fears of a domestic terror attack. [Newsweek, 5/27/02] Brian Sheridan, Clinton's outgoing Deputy Defense Secretary for Special Operations and Low-Intensity Conflict, is astonished when his offers during the transition to bring the new military leadership up to speed on terrorism are brushed aside. ?I offered to brief anyone, any time on any topic. Never took it up.? [Los Angeles Times, 3/30/04] Army Lieutenant General Donald Kerrick, Deputy National Security Adviser and manager of Clinton's NSC (National Security Council) staff, still remains at the NSC nearly four months after Bush takes office. He later notes that while Clinton's advisers met ?nearly weekly? on terrorism by the end of his term, he does not detect the same kind of focus with the new Bush advisers: ?That's not being derogatory. It's just a fact. I didn't detect any activity but what [Clinton holdover Richard] Clarke and the CSG [Counterterrorism and Security Group] were doing.? [Washington Post, 1/20/02] Kerrick submits a memo to the new people at the NSC, warning, ?We are going to be struck again.? He says, ?They never responded. It was not high on their priority list. I was never invited to one meeting. They never asked me to do anything. They were not focusing. They didn't see terrorism as the big megaissue that the Clinton administration saw it as.? Kerrick adds, ?They were gambling nothing would happen.? [Los Angeles Times, 3/30/04] Bush's first Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman, Henry Shelton, later says terrorism was relegated ?to the back burner? until 9/11. [Washington Post, 10/2/02] People and organizations involved: Bush administration, Clinton administration, Hugh Shelton, National Security Council, Donald Kerrick, Counterterrorism and Security Group, Sandy Berger, Brian Sheridan, al-Qaeda[/quote]

[quote]April 20, 2000: Some Complain Clinton Administration Focusing Too Much on Terrorism The Washington Post writes, ?With little fanfare, [President Clinton] has begun to articulate a new national security doctrine in which terrorists and other ?enemies of the nation-state? are coming to occupy the position once filled by a monolithic communist superpower.? In his January 2000 State of the Union address, President Clinton predicts that terrorists and organized criminals will pose ?the major security threat? to the US in coming decades. However, some claim that a ?preoccupation with bin Laden has caused errors in judgment.? National Security Adviser Sandy Berger counters that the threat of large-scale terrorist attacks on US soil is ?a reality, not a perception. ... We would be irresponsible if we did not take this seriously.? Counterterrorism ?tsar? Richard Clarke predicts that the US's new enemies ?will come after our weakness, our Achilles heel, which is largely here in the United States.? [Washington Post, 4/20/00] People and organizations involved: Osama bin Laden, William Jefferson ("Bill") Clinton, Sandy Berger, Richard A. Clarke[/quote]

[quote]Mid-August 1998-2000: US Submarines Ready to Attack bin Laden
Within days of the US African embassy bombings, the US permanently stations two submarines, reportedly in the Indian Ocean, ready to hit al-Qaeda with cruise missiles on short notice. Missiles are fired from these subs later in the month in a failed attempt to assassinate bin Laden. Six to ten hours' advance warning is now needed to review the decision, program the cruise missiles, and have them reach their target. However, in every rare opportunity when the possibility of attacking bin Laden occurs, CIA Director Tenet says the information is not reliable enough and the attack cannot go forward. [Washington Post, 12/19/01; New York Times, 12/30/01] At some point in 2000, the submarines are withdrawn, apparently because the Navy wants to use them for other purposes. Therefore, when the unmanned Predator spy plane flies over Afghanistan in late 2000 and identifies bin Laden, there is no way to capitalize on that opportunity. [Clarke, 2004, pp 220-21] The Bush administration fails to resume the submarine patrol. Lacking any means to attack bin Laden, military plans to strike at him are no longer updated after March 2001. [9/11 Commission Report, 3/24/04 (B)] People and organizations involved: al-Qaeda, George Tenet, Osama bin Laden, Bush administration, Clinton administration[/quote]

[quote]January 10, 2001-September 4, 2001: Armed Predator Drone Is Readied, but Unused
Even before President Bush's official inauguration, Clinton holdover counterterrorism ?tsar? Richard Clarke pushes National Security Adviser Rice and other incoming Bush officials to resume Predator drone flights over Afghanistan (originally carried out in September and October 2000) in an attempt to find and assassinate bin Laden. [Washington Post, 1/20/02; CBS News, 6/25/03] On January 10, Rice is shown a video clip of bin Laden filmed by a Predator drone the year before. [Washington Post, 1/20/02] Clarke learns of an Air Force plan to arm the Predator. The original plan calls for three years of testing, but Clarke pushes so hard that the armed Predator is ready in three months. [New Yorker, 7/28/03] A Hellfire missile is successfully test fired from a Predator on February 16, 2001. [CBS News, 6/25/03] In early June, a duplicate of the brick house where bin Laden is believed to be living in Kandahar, Afghanistan, is built in Nevada, and destroyed by a Predator missile. The test shows that the missile fired from miles away would have killed anyone in the building, and one participant calls this the long sought after ?holy grail? that could kill bin Laden within minutes of finding him. [Washington Post, 1/20/02] Clarke repeatedly advocates using the Predator, armed or unarmed. However, bureaucratic infighting between the CIA and the Air Force over who would pay for it and take responsibility delays its use. Clarke later says, ?Every time we were ready to use it, the CIA would change its mind.? [New Yorker, 7/28/03] Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Steve Hadley decide to delay reconnaissance flights until the armed version is ready. In July 2001, Hadley directs the military to have armed Predators ready to deploy no later than September 1. [9/11 Commission Report, 3/24/04 (D)] The issue comes to a head in early September, but even then, a decision to use the Predator is delayed [New Yorker, 7/28/03] People and organizations involved: Richard A. Clarke, Central Intelligence Agency, Stephen Hadley, Condoleezza Rice, Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush[/quote]

I find the following especially interesting since Wolfo's part of the PNAC: [quote]April 30, 2001: Wolfowitz in Deputy Secretary Meeting: Who Cares About [bin Laden]?
The Bush administration finally has its first Deputy Secretary-level meeting on terrorism. [Time, 8/4/02] According to counterterrorism ?tsar? Richard Clarke, he advocates that the Northern Alliance needs to be supported in the war against the Taliban, and the Predator drone flights need to resume over Afghanistan so bin Laden can be targeted. [Clarke, 2004, pp 231] Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz says the focus on al-Qaeda is wrong. He states, ?I just don't understand why we are beginning by talking about this one man bin Laden,? and ?Who cares about a little terrorist in Afghanistan?? Wolfowitz insists the focus should be Iraqi-sponsored terrorism instead. He claims the 1993 attack on the WTC must have been done with help from Iraq, and rejects the CIA's assertion that there has been no Iraqi-sponsored terrorism against the US since 1993. (A spokesperson for Wolfowitz later calls Clarke's account a ?fabrication.?) [Clarke, 2004, pp 30, 231; Newsweek, 3/22/04] Wolfowitz repeats these sentiments immediately after 9/11 and tries to argue that the US should attack Iraq. Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage agrees with Clarke that al-Qaeda is an important threat. Deputy National Security Adviser Steve Hadley, chairing the meeting, brokers a compromise between Wolfowitz and the others. The group agrees to hold additional meetings focusing on al-Qaeda first (in June and July), but then later look at other terrorism, including any Iraqi terrorism. [Clarke, 2004, pp 30, 231-32] Vice President Cheney's Chief of Staff I. Lewis ?Scooter? Libby and Deputy CIA Director John McLaughlin also attend the hour-long meeting. [Time, 8/4/02] People and organizations involved: Northern Alliance, Richard Armitage, Bush administration, Stephen Hadley, Taliban, Richard A. Clarke, Richard ("Dick") Cheney, Promis, Osama bin Laden, al-Qaeda, Central Intelligence Agency, John McLaughlin, Paul Wolfowitz[/quote]

[quote]September 4, 2001: Debate Heats Up over Predator Drone; Decision Again Delayed
Attendees to an important cabinet-level meeting on terrorism have a heated debate over what to do with the Predator drone. Counterterrorism ?tsar? Richard Clarke has been repeatedly pushing for the use of the Predator over Afghanistan (in either armed or unarmed versions), and he again argues for its immediate use. Everyone agrees that the armed Predator capability is needed, but there are disputes over who will manage and/or pay for it. CIA Director Tenet says his agency will operate the armed Predator ?over my dead body.? [Washington Post, 10/2/02] Clarke recalls, ?The Air Force said it wasn't their job to fly planes to collect intelligence. No one around the table seemed to have a can-do attitude. Everyone seemed to have an excuse.? [New Yorker, 7/28/03] National Security Adviser Rice concludes that the armed Predator is not ready (even though it had been proven in tests during the summer), but she also presses Tenet to reconsider his opposition to immediately resume reconnaissance flights, suspended since September the year before. After the meeting, Tenet agrees to proceed with such flights. [9/11 Commission Report, 3/24/04 (C); 9/11 Commission Report, 3/24/04 (D)] The armed Predator is activated just days after 9/11, showing that it was ready to be used after all. [Associated Press, 6/25/03] People and organizations involved: George Tenet, Richard A. Clarke, Condoleezza Rice[/quote]

[quote]December 2000: Incoming Bush Administration Briefed on Terrorism Threat; Apparently Ignores Recommendations CIA Director Tenet and other top CIA officials brief President-elect Bush, Vice President-elect Cheney, future National Security Adviser Rice, and other incoming national security officials on al-Qaeda and covert action programs in Afghanistan. Deputy Director for Operations James Pavitt recalls conveying that bin Laden is one of the gravest threats to the country. Bush asks whether killing bin Laden would end the problem. Pavitt says he answers that killing bin Laden would have an impact but not stop the threat. The CIA recommends the most important action to combat al-Qaeda is to arm the Predator drone and use it over Afghanistan. [9/11 Commission Report, 3/24/04; Reuters, 3/24/04 (B)] However, while the drone is soon armed, Bush never gives the order to use it in Afghanistan until after 9/11 (see September 4, 2001). People and organizations involved: George Tenet, al-Qaeda, Central Intelligence Agency, James Pavitt, Osama bin Laden, George W. Bush, Condoleezza Rice[/quote]

I suppose thats enough reading for now :P

#463064Post 69 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

No, thats not enough. How about we look at Clintons response:

[url]http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/africa/082198attack-us.html[/url]

Here is the heading of this article:

U.S. Cruise Missiles Strike Sudan and Afghan Targets Tied to Terrorist Network

April 21, 1998.

Case.

Closed.

#464122Post 70 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

Neoee, thanks for the reading material, though I'm crossed eyed now, maybe I'll change my nickname to x-eyed. :lol: Well, I do have some concern about Bush's set up time, responce, and possible overlooking of some instances in those first 9 months, but it doesnt add to or take away from Clinton's failure to take advantage of many circumstances in his 8 years in office.

So much of this makes me wonder what the president actually does to make himself aware of the intelligence at his fingertips. How does he and his team regard threats as not important, somewhat, and very important details to pursue.

I'm sure its not an easy job!

#464126Post 71 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=eye-p]No, thats not enough. How about we look at Clintons response:

[url]http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/africa/082198attack-us.html[/url]

Here is the heading of this article:

U.S. Cruise Missiles Strike Sudan and Afghan Targets Tied to Terrorist Network

April 21, 1998.

Case.

Closed.[/quote]

eye-p Maybe I'm sleepy at the moment and don't know what your point is. Are you considering this a sufficient responce or non-sufficient responce?

I remember that day and watched the news unfold, after a day or so, the details of the aspirin factory became clear and maybe a janitor had been killed inside since it was done at night.

At the moment, I felt glad that Clinton was stepping up to the plate and hitting back, but it turned out to be a 'no-blow' in the end.

What about the USS Cole, and the 1st World Trade Center attacks? What about the opportunity Clinton had to take Bin Laden from Sudan, but allowed him to go into Afghanistan when the Saudis declared they wouldn't take him?

Maybe Clinton had his eye on some young bods, and specially fermented cigars from the region known 'south of the beltline'. Well, can we blame him? :Suck: Whats more important: National Security, or Personal Gratification?

#464134Post 72 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

an interesting link:

[url]http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A39770-2004Jul9.html[/url]

#464198Post 73 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=robprunzit][quote=eye-p]No, thats not enough. How about we look at Clintons response:

[url]http://partners.nytimes.com/library/world/africa/082198attack-us.html[/url]

Here is the heading of this article:

U.S. Cruise Missiles Strike Sudan and Afghan Targets Tied to Terrorist Network

April 21, 1998.

Case.

Closed.[/quote]

eye-p Maybe I'm sleepy at the moment and don't know what your point is. Are you considering this a sufficient responce or non-sufficient responce?

I remember that day and watched the news unfold, after a day or so, the details of the aspirin factory became clear and maybe a janitor had been killed inside since it was done at night.

At the moment, I felt glad that Clinton was stepping up to the plate and hitting back, but it turned out to be a 'no-blow' in the end.

What about the USS Cole, and the 1st World Trade Center attacks? What about the opportunity Clinton had to take Bin Laden from Sudan, but allowed him to go into Afghanistan when the Saudis declared they wouldn't take him?

Maybe Clinton had his eye on some young bods, and specially fermented cigars from the region known 'south of the beltline'. Well, can we blame him? :Suck: Whats more important: National Security, or Personal Gratification?[/quote]

I will address these things 1 at a time.

  1. The first WTC attacks came 8 days into the Clinton presidency. 8 days. He didnt blame GHWB, as he easily could have, rather the FBI tracked down those responsible and they are now rotting in jail. How many people have been convicted for 9/11, or the Anthrax attacks? ZERO.

  2. The USS Cole happened in 1998. Surely you remember 1998. Clinton was for some reason occupied. In fact, the rightwingers all accused Clinton of "wag the dog" in responding to any crisis, since the blowjob scandal was happening. I guess attacking isolated training camps in Afghanistan isnt good enough a response? And if you really want to talk about missing your target, you can explain why we havnt gotten OBL yet, or you can explain what Iraq has to do with 9/11. I wait for your response.

  3. Sudan NEVER offered Bin Laden to Clinton. Sorry. Never happened. The source of this story, a pakastani named Monsoor Ijaaz(sp) has been totally discredited and now shows up on Fox News occasionally. Further, the 9/11 commission also debunked the Sudan claim. So did Richard Clarke.

However, since we are on the subject, how about we talk about the Taliban? Do you remember right after 9/11, when Bush told the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden? The taliban replied, "show us proof that he was involved with 9/11 and he is all yours". Well, you might know that NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER COME OUT THAT BIN LADEN WAS INVOLVED WITH 9/11. None. Isnt that a bit strange?

Thats the funny part. Condi Rice said that they had overwhelming evidence that OBL did 9/11. Yet, it has NEVER been made public? Doesnt that seem strange to you AT ALL?

Look, you can deflect and obfuscate all you want, but at the end of the day, this is just more excuse making for GWB. And for what?

#464204Post 74 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

?[quote]Well, you might know that NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER COME OUT THAT BIN LADEN WAS INVOLVED WITH 9/11. [/quote]

not arguing here, but wasnt there a few video confessions? and its hard to find him because we are in a dumb war. the region itself isnt an American ally either, he could be in a random persons basement for all we know. it would be like an american citizen bombing a islamic holy site and hiding in America. not many would hand him over to our authorities. .... just a thought. he could be in manilla, london, moscow, or seatlle, no one will know, because no one over there is realiable enough to give him away. that and we cant prosecute dead people.

those thoughts, and it was david rose, a english reporter who first said that sudan offered him to us.(not sure of the facts, but he was the author, published in a vanity fair article about 8 weeks after the first attacks in the 90's) at least that is what Sudan has told us. [url]http://www.sudanembassy.org/asp/print.asp?ID=66[/url]

that's thier official webiste for thier embassy here in US.

#464213Post 75 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=eye-p]Do you remember right after 9/11, when Bush told the Taliban to hand over Bin Laden? The taliban replied, "show us proof that he was involved with 9/11 and he is all yours". Well, you might know that NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER COME OUT THAT BIN LADEN WAS INVOLVED WITH 9/11. None. Isnt that a bit strange?

Thats the funny part. Condi Rice said that they had overwhelming evidence that OBL did 9/11. Yet, it has NEVER been made public? Doesnt that seem strange to you AT ALL?
[/quote]

I'm a little fuzzy on what you mean here. Are you implying that OBL is not responsible for 9/11? As sightless points out, I do think there was some video where he claims responsibility and other video that strongly suggests his involvement.

Assuming arguendo for a moment that there is not any hard and cold evidence that OBL was actually responsible for 9/11, he's openly been a cheerleader for the act itself and an advocate for future simlar acts. Maybe it's just me, but I think that if someone gets on global TV professing a desire, intent and ability to do us imminent harm, we ought to be able to go in and take them out. I could really care less if he actually ordered the attacks.

Before anyone jumps on me for what would appear to be an incongruent position vis-a-vis my many anti-Bush/Iraq posts, I do want to make it clear that my primary beefs with Bush and Iraq are:

  1. Timing: We should have wrapped up Afghanistan/Taliban/OBL before going in there.

  2. Honesty: Regardless of the fact that I can understand and appreciate the need to get rid of a guy that has repeatedly thumbed his noses at the world until the last possible moment, I personally don't think he was honest about the reasons for going into Iraq, or giving him the benefit of the doubt, that his analysis was based upon willful blindness.

  3. Competence: Even if you believe Bush was 100% honest about the reasons for going to Iraq, the planning wasn't there and he's left us in a terrible spot.

Not looking to hijack the thread with all the Iraq stuff, just protecting myself from "hypocrite"-type responses.

#464219Post 76 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=you-p][Well, you might know that NO EVIDENCE HAS EVER COME OUT THAT BIN LADEN WAS INVOLVED WITH 9/11. [/quote]

There is video of Bin Laden commenting that the Trade Center attack went BETTER than planned, he didn't expect the towers to come down, but he was pleased with the success of the mission.

I'd say that's pretty good evidence he claimed responsibility.

#464222Post 77 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

i'd also add on the multiple calls for jihads against america. if your gonna call GW and DC war criminals, then bin laden has gotta be grouped with them. he did the same thing. ordered a war for asinine reasons. none of them actually fought. thing is, WE (USA) keep paper trails. he hides in a caves and sends videos to news agancies. bush could have overtly sent in a nuke and blown the shit out of bagdahd. outside of tracing nuclear elements to the our reactors, there wouldnt be much evidence he did it.

too much bullshit in the world today. :?

anyone wanna chip in a buy a secluded island? :P

#464231Post 78 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

  1. Bin Laden has in fact denied being involved. On that same tape, he said that he thought the attacks were better than anything he could have hoped for.

That is quite different than claiming responsibility. This he has never done.

Problem is, when we listen to US intelligence tranlations of OBL video and audio, we get a whole different translation than everywhere else in the world.

Thats kinda funny isnt it?

OBL clearly hates the US, and was thrilled over the attacks. That is NOT the point.

Condi Rice and GWB PROMISED evidence. None HAS EVER been produced. Why?

Let me guess, national security?

You guys cant be THAT gullible.

Explain to me why we havnt caught him yet? This is 6'5" muslim with a dialisis machine. He would be hard to miss.

#464232Post 79 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

[quote=thesightless]i'd also add on the multiple calls for jihads against america. if your gonna call GW and DC war criminals, then bin laden has gotta be grouped with them. he did the same thing. ordered a war for asinine reasons. none of them actually fought. thing is, WE (USA) keep paper trails. he hides in a caves and sends videos to news agancies. bush could have overtly sent in a nuke and blown the shit out of bagdahd. outside of tracing nuclear elements to the our reactors, there wouldnt be much evidence he did it.

too much bullshit in the world today. :?

anyone wanna chip in a buy a secluded island? :P[/quote]

Right. And if Bush nuked Bagdahd, he would be on CNN/Fox in 15 minutes claiming victory for the USA, maybe saying, "Mission Accomplished"?

If OBL really did it, why wouldnt he be running around telling anyone who would listen that he defeated the US military?

#464234Post 80 of 135

Re: Clinton Administration ultimately responsible for 9/11

So is this pretty much where you're coming from EyeP ?

[img]http://www.jnpp.ee/dvd/Pildid/DVD%20PILDID/Conspiracy%20Theory.jpg[/img]

[img]http://xtremeclub.com/images/Movies/wag_the_dog_ver3.jpg[/img]

Log in to reply