Don't take this the wrong way, as I don't mean to suggest that there's a full-blown war going on there or that we're getting our asses kicked or anything, but is anyone else concerned, in light of recent events, that perhaps the Taliban wasn't as defeated as we were originally led to believe?

Back when Bush declared victory in Afghanistan and stated in unequivocal terms that the Taliban was no more, I pretty much took it at face value, in part because I didn't think there was any reason to think that Bush would make such a representation unless it were true.

In the wake of Bush standing on the deck of that warship with the big "Mission Accomplished" sign behind him and the clear disconnect between what we can all see is going on in Iraq and the adminstration's rose-colored view of it, I now can't help but wonder just how fierce the fighting is there. Clearly, there is still some pretty serious combat going on.

Just a thought.

Re: Afghanistan

I'd say it's fair to say that they never really took full control of Afghanistan. Ok yea they would have taken the major cities, but because of the terrain it would be very difficult to take the rest. Plus there are major areas in the north east that are in a kind of no-mans land between Afghanistan and Pakistan, they were controlled by Warlords, don't really know what's going on there.....

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P.S.

[quote=toasty]when Bush declared victory in Afghanistan and stated in unequivocal terms that the Taliban was no more, I pretty much took it at face value[/quote]

No offence, but ROFL

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[quote=joker797]P.S.

[quote=toasty]when Bush declared victory in Afghanistan and stated in unequivocal terms that the Taliban was no more, I pretty much took it at face value[/quote]

No offence, but ROFL[/quote]

Yeah, I know. That was back when I still considered myself a republican. :roll:

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I'm in Ireland, and having never been to America I've no idea what it's like to grow up there, so I'm not judging

From the outside, as I'm sure you're aware, there's a growing feeling around the World that America is playing the bully a bit too much.

I'm wary of what happens when China start getting really involved. They ARE the next superpower

^^Yeah, that's what I understand. There's a lot of people here, too, that feel that we ought to be taking steps to make sure we don't alienate our allies as well. Being inflexible and bullheaded now isn't going to help us next time there is a war and we want (or god forbid need) assistance.

love Ireland, BTW

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it is a combo of the worms that still kill people, and the gov't's lack of ability to control thier outlying, warlord controlled lands.

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This is a very intresting Place in the World.. :roll: But also very nice.. :!:

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Thanks for another useless comment Pakaty P?l.....

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leave em be. english isnt his strong suit. he is a good cat.

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[quote=thesightless]leave em be. english isnt his strong suit. he is a good cat.[/quote]

If you say so

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Yeah, leave him alone. Pataky is to Mercury Nation as Balki Bartokomous is to Larry Appleton

[img]http://www.brigittewiechmann.de/lachen/ueber/balki.jpg[/img]

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[quote=threehills]Yeah, leave him alone. Pataky is to Mercury Nation as Balki Bartokomous is to Larry Appleton

[img]http://www.brigittewiechmann.de/lachen/ueber/balki.jpg[/img][/quote]

As I said, If you say so.....

Any more want to jump on the bandwagon???

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bump.

Yep, bumped a thread from over a year ago. Thing is, though, with the current situation in Afghanistan being what it is and the Taliban experiencing a resurgence, coupled with North Korea ramping up their nuclear aspirations, it seemed apropos.

Lemme see if I've got this straight:

1. Osama bin Laden attacks us on 9/11
2. We send troops into Afghanistan, but fail to capture bin Laden
3. We remove the Taliban from power, but we don't finish the job, it experiences a resurgence and is regaining power
4. We attack Iraq, remove Saddam from power, but leave a civil war in our wake.
5. While all this was going on, North Korea developed nuclear weapons.

Looking at the ol' scorecard, I can't help feeling that the time since 9/11 has been wasted.

1. Bin Laden is still loose
2. A rogue state has nukes
3. Iraq is a fucking mess
4. The Taliban, whom we ostensibly removed, is back

How has any of this put us in a better position than we were on 9/11? Yes, Saddam is gone, and that's a good thing, but considering the current situation in Iraq, I'm not feeling like high-fiving anyone over that. At best, it's a wash until the region can be stabilized.

At this point, I've gotten so accustomed to Bush's incompetence, it almost doesn't phase me any more. Every now and again, though, something will happen that jogs my memory on what a fucking imbicile we have running the show here. :evil:

Re: Afghanistan

hahaha...oh yes indeed he is a complete jackass..but its not him at the end of the day..its a combo of a lot of shit behind the scenes..speculation is unecessary but i dont know...i doubt very much that osama was ever under threat with the american air force (g.i joeeeeeeeee) dropping bombs like hot cakes on freakin mountains and desert land....it was a sham..the whole afghanistan thing was so pathetic...just so that the public could feel better about doing something about 9/11....and it wasnt to remove some oppressive regime and empower women, the place is still just about as fuked..

if anything i hope this makes you and us more sceptical and wary of what our so called freely elected governments act....its really sad because it america we are talking about not amerikkka....this is supposed to be the leader in all that is free and good...and instead it seems to have turned on its own people using propaganda and making empty promises and taking advantage of the vunerability felt by its people..if it were saudi or some north korea doing this sort of shit it would be understandable and not surprising....

but this is supposed to be the leader of the free world...and right now it seems to be far from...

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Well, I remember being booed as a mindless piece of euro trash and US basher for critisizing the invasion of Iraq and Bush's post 9/11 policy... I should be wearing a shirt that says TOLD YA SO, but that's 1. too lame and 2. not constructive anyway.

[quote]Looking at the ol' scorecard, I can't help feeling that the time since 9/11 has been wasted.

1. Bin Laden is still loose
2. A rogue state has nukes
3. Iraq is a fucking mess
4. The Taliban, whom we ostensibly removed, is back[/quote] Add the following to the scoreboard:
5. Thousands of US soldiers killed in vain and even more civilians
6. Useless military actions creating a gigantic deficit on the US budget
7. The UN deprived of any influence
8. The US is the laughing stock of the world and has lost every shred of political and military credibility
9. Sky high oil prices
10. Fundamentalist terrorism stronger than ever
11. Violations of human rights by the US on a massive scale (Gitmo, ...)
12. A president who says torturing suspects is acceptable and has no problem fucking over any convention out there

I agree with Malayday: Bush has done an extremely poor job being the leader of the "Free World." And imo an even worse job being the leader of the US.

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I pretty much took it at face value, in part because I didn't think there was any reason to think that Bush would make such a representation unless it were true.

why because everything else he said was?

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[quote=scag clown;387712]I pretty much took it at face value, in part because I didn't think there was any reason to think that Bush would make such a representation unless it were true.

why because everything else he said was?[/quote]because he doesn't eat dolphins? ;)

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[QUOTE=KinKyJ;387690] 5. Thousands of US soldiers killed in vain and even more civilians[/QUOTE]

I was watching CNN this morning, and the most recent estimate for Iraqi civilian casualties since the invasion is a staggering [B]655,000[/B]. That is not a typo -- well over half a [B]million[/B] people.

That is truly, truly tragic.

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[quote=toasty;387866]I was watching CNN this morning, and the most recent estimate for Iraqi civilian casualties since the invasion is a staggering [B]655,000[/B]. That is not a typo -- well over half a [B]million[/B] people.

That is truly, truly tragic.[/quote]I'd even go further and call it a crime against humanity since the war started on false pretences and has no point whatsoever.

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^^^^ Oh kinky don't say that , they dont deserve to live thoes Camel riders in that Camel country , all what they do is EVIL over there.

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Crime against humanity. I would say all war is just that.

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We definitely have taken out eye of the ball in Afghanistan. Spead too thin in Iraq to keep things under control there.

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how in the world can these militants kill half a million of their own people. is maintaining the grip over people really worth it? shit, their love with the power to simply kill is sickening. and dont say its the coalition troops, it isnt. maybe, on the high end, i can see 100K killed by troops. the rest.... well, we need to ask al sadr, and his homeboys about that.

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^^^^ Your government opened this evil door anyway , and don't tell me its not them who killed the majority , Fallujah , Baquubah and and. Do these names ring a bell for you the sightless.

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^^^what he said

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that cant be a thought out statement...mr sight...dont tell me it is..please.

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wait, you people actually think colalition troops have killed that many? dont ever call us brainwashed. its no where near that number. yeah, its our fault, but we aint pulling the triggers on the bombs. fuck em, waste.of.time. pull out say fuck you, enjoy the dark ages at this point.

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noman i wasnt saying that...i was just dissapointed that you consistantly spin everything for yourself..and approach it at such a twisted angle...its twisted for me maybe the opposite for you..i realise that but still... sure the number may be off the mark..even if it is less...does it matter...the point is the destruction of lives... i refuse to elaborate... i think this boils down to you not thinking humans are worth life...

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not there, not anymore, i wanted to beleive it for so long, then i see hamas get elected, i see the taleban fighting for power, i see iraq every fucking day, and then i think about my brother up in west point mlitary academy. so no, not right now. someone can convince me, cuz i used to beleive we had to stay after we fucked it up, but no one in that region is voicing for peace and calm. they are all fighting for power.

i didnt spin anything, i just said that number is way high, go read about how the study only went to 1800 houses i think, and then they extrapolated the numbers. did anyone ask if they went to hosues in baghdad? or did they go to the outskirts where there is a lot more peace and calm? b/c the violence is condensed to two geographical areas within the sunni triangle.

and bululu, your opinion, to me at least, is bunk, after reading your backing of hezzballah and whatnot. and before you critique the US/UK/australia and the other countries with troops there, ask your local governmental representative why your country is known as the place to go if you need to run from the law. criminal? come on over! we protect you. take care of your own backyard.

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i sypathize....i cant feel what it is to be in your position..im sure it must be frusterating not to see what it is you want to....

but how can there be any peace and calm with america there?....foriegn white troops rather because those people cant tell the difference...get off their land get off thier property stop using thier resources stop trying to gain geo political control and impose and dominate stop backing israel and its continous demolition of human life and its disregard for what is considered precious for these people...then perhaps there will be some talk of peace and calm....

there hasnt been one step in that direction...not one policy amended nothing... so i think its unreasonable to say their not doing their bit....the didnt have that bit to do anyway if werent for the american doo doo

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i hear what ya mena on the iraq control, but again, they voted.

NO WAY to leaving isreal. never, they are a cat sitting between a group of pit bulls. they were forced off thier lands, and got em back, they arent muslim lands, they are judeo-christo lands and those lands had peace until the expansion. they have every right to be there. if you say no, then the iraqis have no right to iraq if we want it, cuz that is all that happened to the region NW of saudi. and isreal has EVERY right to do what they do. they arrest those who seek harm on their citizens while enduring non stop attacks from sick fucks. and everyone wants to blame the US for isreal, DONT, go back and read the history books, it was the UK who impleented the borders post ww2.

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wow...i get all of about half an hour of international news eveyday here..and in the past two days if heard and seen a report on an israeli missle strike on 'suspected' militant leaders...both of which hae been un hurt in the attacks...who died then?....well yesterday 6 people including a teenage boy...all 6 were of the same family....same family...same...same family..blown to bits...and injured bystandars...it happened at night... today...3 i think died..any militants...nope...hes alive and kickin...and you know what hes gonna do...hes gonna go and tell his 'brethren' that he survived for a reason and that they killed his faily on purpose..which i have a hard time seeing past...and it will only help his cause and soon...the inevitable...

this is just two days...two days i happened to catch the news...whichi i sometimes cannot do....israle im terribly terribly terribly sorry.....just is not what you say it is doing...protecting itself or whatver....fuk that dood...fuk that...

america does not need to ''leave'' israle to be 'devowered' by its bloodthirsty neighbors...nobody is sayiing that but there needs to be a change...and i highly dout that in todays age israle would be pushed 'ínto the sea' or whatever paranoid secong holocoaust theory is out there...and there has been no change what so ever...just an avid show of willingness to kill and have complete disregard for any human life and form of decency...just a show of might and power and aggression

Re: Afghanistan

well, go ask someone whose son or daughter was killed by a suicide bomber from gaza. then go look at a hamas rally where thousands of people show they are clearly ready to wipe isreal away. then look at amenidijad (spelling i know), then look at hezzbollah. lets think what caused the recent lebanese conflict.....

Re: Afghanistan

no way man...i already talked about why those peole were there at the rally....you cant make sweeping statements like that these are different incidents caused by different things... yes look at the suicide bombers...what can they do?...do they have precision guided missiles..do they have gps systems....do have freakin walkie talkies...do they have gernades even....or how about a n m16....or apltly an uzi?...no they dont...they have cheap arse ak 47s which are far and few to come by....they have shit all...so what do they do... they get pushed to the brink to where their life isnt worth being lived...its actuallt better to just die..and if its for a cause well then great..lets fukin do it...die heroes right?...fighter for the cause...fighters for the ressistance..

how you can distinguish between that kind of terrorism and unknown unwarned surprise missiles flying past houses and blowing some random one up for ''suspected'' reasons...they have precision boms the highest tech shit night vision and thermal and god knows what not..and still kids and innocents are dying everyday...EVERYDAY...all the time...what are these suicide bombers....compared to this extreme inhumane opression... they cant even see thier own family members if the israely military does not allow them...thier movement is controlled and restricted they are constantly monitored...its sick... oh and please dont say this is what they have to do to protect themselves cuz thats a crocko shit...

Re: Afghanistan

so you would rather isreal just send in thier own suicide bombers?!?!

and for all these ''surprise missles'', are you aware that isreal sends helicopters to do flyovers the targets and drop pamplets telling people''if you are not hamas, leave now'' (wording is actual, but the idea is the same). they warn them, yet the people stay. ask davetlv, he lives there, he'll back it up.

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Similar to the past war in Lebanon, there is a double standard being applied here. At least the Israelis when shooting their missiles are aiming at military targets, as opposed to the random, civilian aimed missiles and suicide bombers of hamas and hezbollah. Just because one group has bigger and better missiles doesn't automatically put the militarily inferior people in the right, you actually need to look at intent, which is exactly what you're side-stepping when you make your claims.

And to further this debate, what is Israel to do when hamas and hezbolleh are using civilians as shields or storing their weapons in schools, civilian homes, etc.? Are the civilians not just as guilty for allowing that?

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here, from the other thread ill give everyone who hates me some fuel.

i really and im serious here, think that the countries within the UN that consider hamas a terror org, should simply stop funding palestine. my thoughts coming to this conclusion, are A. why in the world do we have to help a group of people who openly elected a militant group to office B. we owe them nothing after that. C. we shouldnt fund our enemies, even if they are elected. D. hamas, to this day, still refuses peace and acknowledgement of isreal, and continues to sponsor the idealology of murder in name of.. E. they bring everything on themselves, act hostile, and demand we help them kill others and operate.

so , in essence, i really think that we need to stop giving our money to those devoted to harming others, in particular our interests. they are already feeling the backlash of not having money as we can see in the news. so, if they dont want to work with us, we sohuldnt work with them

look at the history books, the jews and christians were happily living together until the muslim warlords killed them and forced them out from roughly 700 AD to 1100 AD. they deserve every right to fight for those lands again. they lost them to violence, they can and should fight back for thier historical claims to the lands that all 3 major religions stem from

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^^^^ Man reading what you are writting , you make the Isreali Army look like the nicest and coolest army in the World (I love how you give a statement and then you ask us to ask davetlv if it was true or not), you will never change mr. sightless , too bad.

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he lives in tel aviv..not gaza..... why would i rather israel send its 'suicide bombers''..im saying they dont have to...they have fukin super missiles man...compared to the amazing arsenal of what was the group that was in the forefront of perpretating the attacks in israle a few years back...

what israle is doing is worse beacuse it is daily it is al,most everyday....they did a study...1 in 3 kids in palestine...1 in 3 have seen thier own father being physically arrested or subdued by israly forces...thats has a profound impact on a childs psyche and its impact should not be underestimated...... im in no way defending the attacks..... but i do believe that if anybody is pushed to take thier own life they are desperate and if there are a fixed and predictable number of people that do it in your own society..that means that its because of your society...because of people

so if this desperation leads them to express their fear and frusteration to the extent that they choose to do such a drastic and damaging thing, has serious implications.....such impilications go beyond reasons of brainwashing and/or religion