Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

not me, i'd introduce him to the pistol whip over and over again as long as i knew he was involved. this doesnt mean i would pick up a guy off the streets, but for instance, when they had that huge mosque held down and we had to raid it, everyone of those people would be in a backwoods village in pakistan under intense interrogation. they obviously know something, now whether they will give it up or not is a questoin of thier own willpower to deal with pentathone in the bloodstream and leather straps across the back

just remember, the world didnt cry when that kid got beaten for keying a car all those years back. these people shoot other people. by doing that, i think they forgo any rights we give to people, simply because they deny those rights to thier many victims.

example,

what happens if we catch al zaqwari? we know he has contact with bin laden, we obviously know he has a source for weapons and explosives. if he wont talk normally, why would you object to chemical manipulation in order to break his will and save the 30 non-soldiers that die every day in the streets of Iraq. not to mention the future casulties that could be avoided if we get bin laden. why wouldnt you utilize every method to cut these people off at the pass? if you dont, you can only blame yourself when people die in the future

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless]so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?[/quote]

If we sacrifice those parts of ourselves that separate us from the terrorists, we've already lost. If I had the choice between beheading someone to get information to save lives, I would not behead that person. Principles are more important to me.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote]not me, i'd introduce him to the pistol whip over and over again as long as i knew he was involved. [/quote]

What if you had to use the pistol whip to determine IF he was involved?

[quote]these people shoot other people. by doing that, i think they forgo any rights we give to people, simply because they deny those rights to thier many victims.[/quote]

Whoa...so now an individual gives up their rights by violating someone else's rights??? You really have no respect for any of the founding principles of this country do you?

[quote]if he wont talk normally, why would you object to chemical manipulation in order to break his will [/quote]

To be honest, I'm not sure that I'm against using chemicals to get prisoners to talk. I am not sure that I would put that in the category of abuse or torture. I would oppose locking him in a fetal position to sleep in his own shit...the reason is because once we lower ourselves to their level, regardless of the nobility of our purpose in doing so, we've lost...we've become what we seek to destroy. Torture and abuse is morally wrong and downright un-American.

[quote]why wouldnt you utilize every method to cut these people off at the pass? if you dont, you can only blame yourself when people die in the future[/quote]

If you could pinpoint Bin Laden's location to a 2 mile radius, would you drop a nuke on him? What if it meant killing 1 innocent civilian? Would you do it?

The reason I wouldn't do it is because America is not an "ends justifies the means" society or culture. If we give up who we are and engage in behavior that we condemn others for (Saddam, Castro, Amin, etc.), what have we gained?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless][quote]I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?[/quote]

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true[/quote]

Instead you'd rather others live in fear- anyone but you. Excellent approach. :roll:

On another note, we have many innocent people who have been put to death, being found guilty on such and such charge. When we can't even get it right [i]with[/i] due process what says we will without? I've asked the question before, but what if it was your mom, dad or child that was being subjected to this treatment- would it still be ok?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

certain people know that you have to do this from time to time. circumstances dictate that we do it. it doesnt make it right. but sometimes i do belive we need to step over the line to do it. it happens all the time. and my family was involved in a way, i lost my uncle john in 9/11. but i guess thats ok, because it didnt happen to you. if it took torture to stop what happened then i am all for it. would have saved a few thousand lives and prevented 2 dumb wars.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless]certain people know that you have to do this from time to time. circumstances dictate that we do it. it doesnt make it right. but sometimes i do belive we need to step over the line to do it. it happens all the time. and my family was involved in a way, i lost my uncle john in 9/11. but i guess thats ok, because it didnt happen to you. if it took torture to stop what happened then i am all for it. would have saved a few thousand lives and prevented 2 dumb wars.[/quote]

I think you are just missing the important points here.

Torture does not work. Period. It obviously didnt help save your Uncle John(RIP), and it hasnt saved anyone since. Do you understand that?

Further, the people @ Guantanamo simply do not have the information which we would need to prevent a future attack. Why would we continue to torture someone who clearly has no relevant information?

Lastly, do you not see the hypocrisy in sending a prisoner for "rendition" to Syria or Egypt while our President condenms these countries for human rights abuses?

For an attorney, your personal loss on 9/11 seems to have damaged your ability to think critically.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless]certain people know that you have to do this from time to time. circumstances dictate that we do it. it doesnt make it right. but sometimes i do belive we need to step over the line to do it. it happens all the time. and my family was involved in a way, i lost my uncle john in 9/11. but i guess thats ok, because it didnt happen to you. if it took torture to stop what happened then i am all for it. would have saved a few thousand lives and prevented 2 dumb wars.[/quote]

I am sorry to hear about your Uncle John. I was lucky. My father was in DC, but did not have business at or near the Pentagon. Your anger is understandable and I can't say that I know how you feel because I didn't lose anyone on 9/11. However, I still do not think that that horrific day justifies sacrificing who we are. Torture is wrong...you admit that. If we start to say that it is ok to engage in acts that we can agree are morally wrong because of the ends that they serve, who have we become and where do you draw the line?

You say you are willing to engage in torture...what aren't you willing to do to save 1000 lives?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

no, i can differentiate in what i need to do in work and how i feel about people who want to kill us. i would clearly stay away from a case like this anyway. mind you im a tax attorney, not a criminal defender.

but i still think that there will exist times where you need to do anything you have to in order to prevent something worse from happening. its just a cold sad fact that i live with. just like the fact that we all realize that eventually something like 9/11 will happen again, it is only a matter of time. :? :?

i just wont put my morals above someone's life. some people will. i would do anything to save an innocent life. these people at gitmo are not innocent.

edit here

like the example i said before. what happens if we catch zarqwari (sp)?

do we just lock him up? or do we let people do what they have to in order to at least try to find out important info. im all for letting people do what they have to so they can find out where the explosives are and if he knows anything about binladen. we know he knows how to communicate with the guy. this man is directly responsible for thousands of murders, what gives him the right to be treated fairly. thats my question. because if you put morals over fairness, then you let the rest of these worms just step into his shoes.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

OK, fine. Lets put morals aside.

Torture still does not work. Why use it? Revenge?

How are you not getting this?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

im asking you the same question. we just need to agree to disagree. we feel differently about the same thing. this is like mike moore trying to convince bill oreilly to have the same thoughts.

whatever, to each his own, its not like we are mortal enemies now. i just beleive that if nothing else works, then we should be able to take that step beyond what is fair. you dont.

peace

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

fair enough. :|