I think it's irresponsible that he compares American soldiers to Nazis, Russians in the Gulag, and Pol Pot in Cambodia. The prisoners in Guantanamo were forced to listen to rap music in rooms with no air conditioning as torture. I don't see this as being the torture I would expect in a concentration camp run by Nazi Germany.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

we spend a lot of money on our "psych" divisions.

you'd be surprised what one would confess to after 36 hours of christina aguilera's "genie in a bottle."

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

In the 60's Jane Fonda went to Vietnam, sat on a enemy tank, viewed American prisoners of war, and took sides with the enemy during a time of war. It has now been shown how our prisoners were battered more after her visit, and the enemy was pumped up.

This Durbin has the right to say whatever he wants, and be free to it, but he and the others may cause much more calamity in the Mid East.

The enemy may be uplifted, as they read his comments in the Al-jizera (sp) propaganda newspapers. People may die because of his words. :x

Mental torture can be as damaging if not more damaging than pysical abuse. It's wrong imo for people to be captured and held without trial in what is basically a concentration camp. Charge them or release them.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Did those fighters (now held in the prison camp in Cuba), did they follow the normal way wars are fought. Like wearing uniforms, or not harming innocent people, ie, children, and women. Could they care less who they kill, or how terrible that is for the ones who remain to deal with their family members death?

Have you forgotten who they are, where they were caught, what they were doing when they caught,

1. Fighting for the Taliban in Afghanistan.
2. On the battle field, or hiding in Taliban bunkers.
3. Fighting to kill the coalition of many nations, which came in to find Bin Laden and take out the Taliban which supported and helped fund his movement.

Why do so many people simply want to support these people? Is our political persuasions so important that we would stand up for murderers, so that our opinions are pushed to the front?

Ok, lets just let them all go. :roll:

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Let's put a moratorium on comparing anything to Nazis. Neither side should use it. That being said Durbin didn't. Here are his words: [quote]When you read some of the graphic descriptions of what has occurred here -- I almost hesitate to put them in the record, and yet they have to be added to this debate. Let me read to you what one FBI agent saw. And I quote from his report: On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold....On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night. On another occasion, not only was the temperature unbearably hot, but extremely loud rap music was being played in the room, and had been since the day before, with the detainee chained hand and foot in the fetal position on the tile floor. If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.[/quote]

Senator Durbin was calling for more congressional oversight of Guantanamo and for the prisoners to have the right to challenge their detentions. What happened to innocent until proved guilty? If the United States doesn't follow it's own rule of law how can we complain when others don't?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=HoneyBearKelly] If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime -- Pol Pot or others -- that had no concern for human beings. Sadly, that is not the case. This was the action of Americans in the treatment of their prisoners.[/quote]

But that's the comparison right there - Durbin, in the quote you have posted, maintains that the acts of American soldiers are congruent with the acts of those deplorable organizations of days past. He's basically saying that if you took what is happening at Gitmo and what happened at Auschwitz and put them side by side they would look to be the work of the same hand.

"If I read this to you ... you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime"

We may be arguing semantics, but I read those words and I see Durbin attempting to connect the two.

I do agree with the fact that this whole operation down in Cuba is creating more questions than answers. The tactics involved in these types of interrogations rarely lead to valid tips, and even if these prisoners were ready to confess - what kind of intelligence would they be offering? Some have been locked up for 2 years now; I doubt they still have their finger on the pulse of terrorist activity.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

So, if not the Nazis, Pol Pot or the Soviets, who would you say is an apt comparison for treatment described in the FBI memo? Invoking the Nazis, Khmer Rouge or Soviets may be a bit over the top, but some of the treatment described is a bit extreme.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

WHY THE FUCK ARE WE CRYONG ABOUT THE TREATMENT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD KILL US IF GIVEN THE OPPURTUNITY TO DO IT WITHOUT REPRECUSSIONS.:evil:

SOMEONE TELL DURBIN TO REACH INTO HIS ASSHOLE AND PULL HIS HEAD OUT OF IT.

maybe his kid needs to be become a POW in a place like Iraq and then his tune will change a bit after he finds out that they whipped, drugged, beat the kid.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

I heard Senator John McCain say that an apology was in order from Durbin for his comments comparing Nazis, Gulags, and Pol Pot to Gitmo. I heard others in governement are also wanting an apology from Durbin too.

The operation in Gitmo has about 500 plus prisoners. Not the millions of Jews that died in concentration camps by being gased and other horrible atrocities. Also, 2 million people were killed by Pol Pot. So, let's quick making silly and outrageous comparisons. To continue with comparisons, insults the many families and dead killed by these horrible regimes.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

First. Well, Durbin is an idiot, and his comments will hurt him ... hopefully. But, we Americans forget what happens after a couple months, and he doesnt have campaigns for several years, so if he sits back and zips his lip, this will all go away FOR HIM.

But for THE WORLD, his words have seriously damaged how middle eastern people look at the effort. That is where Durbin becomes an IDIOT. He only wanted to hurt the Republican basis for not giving a timeline to get out of Iraq, and he did not take into account his words would affect the safety of our troops, and the trust from people in the region.

We all know his words where WRONG, without question, but the middle eastern people don't know that. Even if he did offer an apology, the damage has been done, and Al Jazira (sp) media would most likely never play his recant to the population over there.

Second. The prisoners being held were caught in the bunkers where only the fighters were hanging out or hiding from the bombings. There isn't a question about their involvement ... so guilt is not the question, but most people forgot that already, or just don't remember the facts. REMEMBER THE FACTS.

If you want to compare something, think about how Japanese Americans in America were rounded up and held in camps during WW2. They actually were innocent, but held 'just in case' of allegiance to their country of birth.

These guys in Cuba camps were only lucky they didn't die in battle trying to kill coalition soldiers, and we feel sorry for them.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless]WHY THE FUCK ARE WE CRYONG ABOUT THE TREATMENT OF PEOPLE WHO WOULD KILL US IF GIVEN THE OPPURTUNITY TO DO IT WITHOUT REPRECUSSIONS.:evil:[/quote]

Because that is what separates US from THEM. Once we start to say some level of mistreatment is ok, where do we draw the line.

[quote]maybe his kid needs to be become a POW in a place like Iraq and then his tune will change a bit after he finds out that they whipped, drugged, beat the kid.[/quote]

Have you ever thought that all of this Gitmo crap might actually make it worse for American POWs???

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Make it worse for American POWs. What makes it worse are the comments Durbin made a last week. WAKE UP!

This is a War!

By the way, the GITMO POW'S are eating probably better than you. They are served daily the best dishes, lemon chicken, etc.

Also, a few months back about 200 detainees were released. Already 12 of those guys have been picked up again.

Why cant you people see the Big Picture? War isn't pretty, it isn't fun, it's not nice. But it is war, and those detainees are not having their fingernails pulled off, or their tongues cut out.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=robprunzit] This is a War! [/quote]

Well, it is on the battlefield. As for the POWs, the war is over. They're done fighting, whether they like it or not. I think people frequently confuse what is going on on the battlefield with what goes on in the prisons.

[quote=robprunzit]By the way, the GITMO POW'S are eating probably better than you. They are served daily the best dishes, lemon chicken, etc.
[/quote]

I've got to say, I don't think this is necessary. They ought to be getting sustenance and that's about it. I do think it is ridiculous, though, that trotting out the menu is the best defense torture apologists have. "Sure, we're beating them, we're chaining them naked to the floor, we're setting dogs on them -- but at the end of the day, they're getting rice pilaf and apple cobbler, so it all evens out.

That's obviously a bit of an exaggeration, but the point is that doing one or two things right, or even exceptionally well, doesn't excuse other bad acts.

[quote=robprunzit]Also, a few months back about 200 detainees were released. Already 12 of those guys have been picked up again. [/quote]

Why the hell were they released? Bush talks about it like those that are critical of what is going on in Gitmo would like to see these prisoners released. I wouldn't. If they are American citizens, I would like to see them charged and tried in a prompt fashion, as is their Constitutional right. If they're found guilty, we can execute them for all I care. That's what due process is all about. What I don't want to see is them being tortured, because America is supposed to be above that.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

12 have been picked up again but over two dozen have died in combat with us.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

i agree with what some are saying here....but when i read comments that go beyond ignorance of the truth of what is going in gitmo, abu graib, and other places (like so many do...) but actually agree with blatant mistreatment and abuse of prisoners ....i get sick to my stomach. the geneva conventions were held to set rules for war after the chemical weapons used in wwI and the atrocities of wwII.....they were an effort to prevent actions like them from happening again. but now hypocrites out there are saying it's ok to do what we are so clearly doing to our prisoners.....and it is people like you that are the biggest reason the rest of the world is distancing itself more and more from the choices we make.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

From [url]http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh062105.shtml[/url]

[quote]Durbin asked an obvious question: If you?d read that report, would you ever have thought that it was describing American conduct? Or would you have thought what Durbin said?that it must describe an evil regime, the type we have long denounced? The answer to that is perfectly obvious?and so is the state of our fallen culture, the culture being trampled under by the Russerts, the McCains and the Wallaces.

But we?ve now reached a miraculous point in the crumbling of our discourse. We?ve reached the point where citizens are mocked by major scribes for wondering if we were lied into war?and where United States senators are told to apologize for denouncing the conduct described in that report. But then, lunacy has spread throughout our discourse over the course of the past dozen years. And your fiery ?career liberals? have known to be silent. They looked away again and again. Now we see what that has bought us.

Remember: If you?re troubled to think that we may have been lied into war, that makes you a ?wing nut? to today?s ?mainstream? press corps. And if you think that FBI report sounds un-American, you need to apologize to the Senate! McCain, Russert, Kristol, Hume, Wallace? They?ve turned their backs on sanity itself. Everyone has to fight this spreading press culture?and you have to ask more from those who kept quiet while this culture of insanity was born.[/quote]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Glad to see that Durbin has apologized for his remarks.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Forgot to add this - here's a theory about Saddam and the Gitmo treatment of prisoners:

Do you think that letting the world know that Saddam was treated well by him eating Doritos, Cheetos, and Raisin brand crunch was the militiary trying to restore their image in light of their criticism at Gitmo?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=HoneyBearKelly]From [url]http://www.dailyhowler.com/dh062105.shtml[/url]

[quote] Remember: If you?re troubled to think that we may have been lied into war, that makes you a ?wing nut? to today?s ?mainstream? press corps. And if you think that FBI report sounds un-American, you need to apologize to the Senate! McCain, Russert, Kristol, Hume, Wallace? They?ve turned their backs on sanity itself. Everyone has to fight this spreading press culture?and you have to ask more from those who kept quiet while this culture of insanity was born.[/quote][/quote]

Remember: If you agree with even [i]some[/i] of what Bush has done, that makes you a ignorant redneck who doesn't pay attention to current events. And if you think some of the most radical left wing politicians are doing more harm than good by denouncing every action of the administration you need to apologize to the "blue staters" who are obviously more educated than you are! Kennedy, Durbin, Franken, Matthews, Moore? They've turned their backs on sanity itself. Everyone has to fight this unwavering hatred of all things Bush/Republican - and you have to at least consider the idea that some of what is being done at home and abroad might, just [i]might[/i], make the world a safer, more prosperous and more unified place for our children and our children's children.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

What Durbin did has made the whole effort less safe. Troops will be scrutinized differently by nationals, who don't understand American politics, who want get to hear the 'so called apology'.

Short article to read: [url]http://www.bayoubuzz.com/articles.aspx?aid=4272[/url]

His apology by the way, was as laim as the original statements. He only apologized for hurting some peoples feelings. He did not say that his statements or his comparisons were wrong, and apologize for those terrible misleading statements. The Washington Post, Durbin said,

"Some may believe that my remarks crossed the line," said the Illinois Democrat, at times holding back tears. "To them I extend my heartfelt apologies."

It would be different if he had said something like: 'I am sorry for what I said, it was wrong and it hurt many of you, it has put troops in harms way, and many around the globe have misunderstood my remarks, and for that I am most sorry'. And of course more could be said too.

In the middle east, common people don't understand what politics are like in America. How the left thrashes out at the right. How liberals slander and lie, and then back off, after the damage is done. Al Jazira (sp) will only print what helps the efforts of the terrrorist. Durbin has become an aide to the terrorist, just as Jane Fonda was in the Vietnam War.

Another point. If he really apologized, why doesn't he step down, like Senator Trent Lott (republican Dec. 2002) did after his misguided racist comments at the birthday party. Not even on the Senate floor, about Americans during a time of war. Lott's comments were minor in comparison, and he resigned. He was pushed out of office because of his words.

[url]http://www.pbs.org/newshour/bb/congress/july-dec02/lott_12-12.html[/url]

Then the liberals don't even accept his apology. [url]http://www.ethicalego.com/no_apology_for_racism.htm[/url]

Where is the backlash over Durbins comments from the Left or Liberals. They like many of you, liberals believe what he said to be true, and don't care what damage it has done. True damage for America in the middle east, more than GITMO or AbuGrab ever has done.

His comments were so far exaggerated that the words cannot even be taken back from where they have gone. More insurgents will join up and suit up with explosives because of his comments. And all he can do is say 'I'm sorry if my words have hurt some of you'

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

A new Rasmussen poll shows that 70% of Americans believe the Gitmo Bay terrorists have been treated ?better than they deserve? (36%) or ?about right? (34%).

The survey also found that just 14% agree with people who say that prisoner treatment at Guantanamo Bay is similar to Nazi tactics. Sixty-nine percent disagree with that comparison. This helps explain why Illinois Senator Dick Durbin apologized for making such a comparison.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

I think his apology was more for the Anti-Defamation League demanding an apology for trivializing the Holocaust.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Yeah Superdave, he opened up a whole new can of worms.

Ok, check this out. This article first paragraph states:

''On June 3, Pentagon Spokesman Mr. Lawrence DiRita announced the amazing results: "In 31,000 documents covering 28,000 interrogations and countless thousands of interactions with detainees, having issued 1,600 Korans, Southcom found 5 incidents of apparent mishandling by guards or interrogators and 15 incidents of mishandling and outright desecration by detainees." Did you hear that? The suspected terrorists mishandling the Koran more often than U.S. personnel.''

[url]http://www.aim.org/media_monitor/3755_0_2_0_C/[/url]

It would not surprise me if detainees are trying to frame the guards, by doing these things and blaming the guards. Crafty bunch!

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=robprunzit]Make it worse for American POWs. What makes it worse are the comments Durbin made a last week. WAKE UP!

This is a War!.[/quote]

Hmmm...what would be worse, a senator making comments regarding an FBI report on the abuse suffered by prisoners or the fact that prisoners are being chained in the fetal position and left to shit all over themselves. Well if you choose the former and completely discount the later, I would say you lack a great deal of credibility on the issue.

Sure it's a war, but it is a war about ideals. Do you support freedom and democracy and human rights or do you support brutality and a win at any means attitude. Sorry but abusing and torturing prisoners is something the enemy would do...torture is not an American ideal.

[quote]By the way, the GITMO POW'S are eating probably better than you. They are served daily the best dishes, lemon chicken, etc. .[/quote]

Good for them...but fortunately I don't get chained up to sleep in freezing or boiling temperatures. I'll skip the lemon chicken if it means I don't have to sleep in my own shit.

[quote]Also, a few months back about 200 detainees were released. Already 12 of those guys have been picked up again..[/quote]

So. Never said that they didn't belong there.

[quote]Why cant you people see the Big Picture? War isn't pretty, it isn't fun, it's not nice. But it is war, and those detainees are not having their fingernails pulled off, or their tongues cut out.[/quote]

And what people is that? People who believe in American ideals? I know that war isn't pretty, but abuse and torture is not what this country is about. They're not having their testicles ripped off with pliers either, but that doesn't mean that the abuse they are suffering is not real and should not be condemned.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=robprunzit]What Durbin did has made the whole effort less safe. Troops will be scrutinized differently by nationals, who don't understand American politics, who want get to hear the 'so called apology'.[/quote]

So was everything just honky-dorry until Durbin came along? That seems to be what you're saying.

[quote]It would be different if he had said something like: 'I am sorry for what I said, it was wrong and it hurt many of you, it has put troops in harms way, and many around the globe have misunderstood my remarks, and for that I am most sorry'. And of course more could be said too.[/quote]

That's rich. So Durbin puts the troops in harm's way for something he said on the senate floor...just curious did anyone else have any role in putting them in harm's way?

[quote]In the middle east, common people don't understand what politics are like in America. How the left thrashes out at the right. How liberals slander and lie, and then back off, after the damage is done. Al Jazira (sp) will only print what helps the efforts of the terrrorist. Durbin has become an aide to the terrorist, just as Jane Fonda was in the Vietnam War.[/quote]

Just curious, what's your connection to the middle east? I hear so much pontificating about how things are taken in the middle east and I'm always curious to know how much people actually know about what they're talking about.

[quote]Another point. If he really apologized, why doesn't he step down, like Senator Trent Lott (republican Dec. 2002) did after his misguided racist comments at the birthday party. Maybe because he doesn't have the president's advisor pushing to have him ousted.[/quote]

Because he's not as stupid as Trent Lott. He should have never stepped down...it was a dumb move that left us with Bill Frist.

[quote]His comments were so far exaggerated that the words cannot even be taken back from where they have gone. More insurgents will join up and suit up with explosives because of his comments. And all he can do is say 'I'm sorry if my words have hurt some of you'[/quote]

Dude, you need to listen to a little less Savage Nation.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=robprunzit]A new Rasmussen poll shows that 70% of Americans believe the Gitmo Bay terrorists have been treated ?better than they deserve? (36%) or ?about right? (34%). [/quote]

I would agree that they have been treated better than they deserve. But the reason they have been treated better than they deserve is because we, as a nation, are better than those who would treat them as they deserve to be treated. That's what separates us from them. We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath...we are better than that. If you have lost sight of what we are and what we stand for, then the terrorists have already won and you don't even realize it.

You're walking down a dangerous road of moral relativism that leads to the worst types of abuses committed in the name of the highest ideals.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=pacific493]We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath.[/quote]

Uh, evidently we do, and lots of Americans are fine with it. :roll:

That's troubling...

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]Make it worse for American POWs. What makes it worse are the comments Durbin made a last week. WAKE UP!

This is a War!.[/quote]

Hmmm...what would be worse, a senator making comments regarding an FBI report on the abuse suffered by prisoners or the fact that prisoners are being chained in the fetal position and left to shit all over themselves. [/quote]

Well put. It blows me away that people are making such a huge deal over these comments while glossing over the conduct that prompted the comments in the first place. If I were Durbin, I would have said, "Tell you what -- I'll apologize for my comments when the Bush adminstration apologizes for letting this happen on its watch."

Why were people not so up in arms when Santorum made comments referencing Hitler about a month ago?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]What Durbin did has made the whole effort less safe. Troops will be scrutinized differently by nationals, who don't understand American politics, who want get to hear the 'so called apology'.[/quote]

So was everything just honky-dorry until Durbin came along? That seems to be what you're saying..[/quote]

Not quite, cant see how you would read anything like that into what I have mentioned. War couldn't ever be 'honky-dorry', its messy, thats really what it is.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]It would be different if he had said something like: 'I am sorry for what I said, it was wrong and it hurt many of you, it has put troops in harms way, and many around the globe have misunderstood my remarks, and for that I am most sorry'. And of course more could be said too.[/quote]

That's rich. So Durbin puts the troops in harm's way for something he said on the senate floor...just curious did anyone else have any role in putting them in harm's way?.[/quote]

Not close to the damage Durbin has caused. Our troops are working close to nationals, training them, and working with them in the most difficult situations. Cultures are very different, and much can be a division point in what they are doing side by side with Iraqis, both military and civilian. Trust is a key in what they are doing.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]In the middle east, common people don't understand what politics are like in America. How the left thrashes out at the right. How liberals slander and lie, and then back off, after the damage is done. Al Jazira (sp) will only print what helps the efforts of the terrrorist. Durbin has become an aide to the terrorist, just as Jane Fonda was in the Vietnam War.[/quote]

Just curious, what's your connection to the middle east? I hear so much pontificating about how things are taken in the middle east and I'm always curious to know how much people actually know about what they're talking about..[/quote]

1. I have studied and read up on Islam. I have questioned the leading Muslim cleric and Imam in Atlanta about Islam.
2. I dated an Iranian girl for a while, and hung with many of them.
3. Next to my office is a good friend, a Libyan muslim man much older than me. He and I talk about this stuff, and he explains much of the Arab and muslim culture to me.
4. Talk radio, about 6 different shows a day. I listen off and on as I have time, not continually. Many things are discussed, and much of it is politics, where many viewpoints are brought up and debated.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]Another point. If he really apologized, why doesn't he step down, like Senator Trent Lott (republican Dec. 2002) did after his misguided racist comments at the birthday party. Maybe because he doesn't have the president's advisor pushing to have him ousted.[/quote]

Because he's not as stupid as Trent Lott. He should have never stepped down...it was a dumb move that left us with Bill Frist..[/quote]

Not dumb. I happen to respect him for taking responsibility for his mistake, though I miss him, and also his mistake was tiny in comparison to what Durbin has done.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]His comments were so far exaggerated that the words cannot even be taken back from where they have gone. More insurgents will join up and suit up with explosives because of his comments. And all he can do is say 'I'm sorry if my words have hurt some of you'[/quote]

Dude, you need to listen to a little less Savage Nation.[/quote]

Actually, I only listen a little to M. Savage, and he really doesnt like Bush btw. There are many others who do a better job than he. And I make my mind up about what I believe, it only helps to hear more of the entire story with the help of talk radio. You cannot get a full view any other way, whether you agree with them or not. Fox is helpful, and much more balanced than locals or CNN.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

Ok let me ask you a question. Since these GITMO guys were all picked up in battle situations, we can pretty well assume they were only there for one reason. To fight and kill. Many of the same clan are strapping bombs to themselves and blowing up Iraqi policeman, civilians, and children.

With that being stated, my question is two fold.

1. how would you treat these guys? how would get them to talk?
2. how do you try these people in American courts? where do you get the jury from, witnesses, lawyers, not to mention the cultural differences which would confuse matters more, and I don't mean language, I mean mental cultural differences based on their upbringing.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=toasty][quote=pacific493]We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath.[/quote]

Uh, evidently we do, and lots of Americans are fine with it. :roll:

That's troubling...[/quote]

Excuse me, what is troubling, is the clear fact that you have forgotten 3000+ people did on 9/11 from people of the same mind and belief structure. America was attacked, and people groups from all over the world died that day in the most horrible way. Instant death, smoke, fire, being crushed, some fast, some slow, some jumping out of windows, some fallen with the buildings.

I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK, but how can you forget why this is happening anyway. Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it. Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys, who would slit your throat if they could use you for propaganda like they have so many, example Nick Berg.

Go view the beheading videos I posted, and think about it.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]In the middle east, common people don't understand what politics are like in America. How the left thrashes out at the right. How liberals slander and lie, and then back off, after the damage is done. Al Jazira (sp) will only print what helps the efforts of the terrrorist. Durbin has become an aide to the terrorist, just as Jane Fonda was in the Vietnam War.[/quote]

Just curious, what's your connection to the middle east? I hear so much pontificating about how things are taken in the middle east and I'm always curious to know how much people actually know about what they're talking about..[/quote]

1. I have studied and read up on Islam. I have questioned the leading Muslim cleric and Imam in Atlanta about Islam.
2. I dated an Iranian girl for a while, and hung with many of them.
3. Next to my office is a good friend, a Libyan muslim man much older than me. He and I talk about this stuff, and he explains much of the Arab and muslim culture to me.
4. Talk radio, about 6 different shows a day. I listen off and on as I have time, not continually. Many things are discussed, and much of it is politics, where many viewpoints are brought up and debated.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]Another point. If he really apologized, why doesn't he step down, like Senator Trent Lott (republican Dec. 2002) did after his misguided racist comments at the birthday party. Maybe because he doesn't have the president's advisor pushing to have him ousted.[/quote]

Because he's not as stupid as Trent Lott. He should have never stepped down...it was a dumb move that left us with Bill Frist..[/quote]

Not dumb. I happen to respect him for taking responsibility for his mistake, though I miss him, and also his mistake was tiny in comparison to what Durbin has done.

[quote=pacific493][quote=robprunzit]His comments were so far exaggerated that the words cannot even be taken back from where they have gone. More insurgents will join up and suit up with explosives because of his comments. And all he can do is say 'I'm sorry if my words have hurt some of you'[/quote]

Dude, you need to listen to a little less Savage Nation.[/quote]

Actually, I only listen a little to M. Savage, and he really doesnt like Bush btw. There are many others who do a better job than he. And I make my mind up about what I believe, it only helps to hear more of the entire story with the help of talk radio. You cannot get a full view any other way, whether you agree with them or not. Fox is helpful, and much more balanced than locals or CNN.[/quote]

[quote]Not quite, cant see how you would read anything like that into what I have mentioned. War couldn't ever be 'honky-dorry', its messy, thats really what it is.[/quote]

Well, you seem to be pinning all of the alleged increased danger facing american troops on Durbin. Perhaps I engaged in a bit of hyperbole, but you seem to discount any effect the underlying abuse and mistreatment of prisoners has. Do you think that GITMO placed american troops at no increased danger until Durbin made his comments? And considering that it was conservative types like Hannity and Savage who spread Durbin's comments far and wide and gave paid them far more attention than they deserved, don't they bear some blame as well?

[quote]Not close to the damage Durbin has caused. Our troops are working close to nationals, training them, and working with them in the most difficult situations. Cultures are very different, and much can be a division point in what they are doing side by side with Iraqis, both military and civilian. Trust is a key in what they are doing. [/quote]

Incredible...so all of this falls on Durbin and no one else?

[quote]1. I have studied and read up on Islam. I have questioned the leading Muslim cleric and Imam in Atlanta about Islam. 2. I dated an Iranian girl for a while, and hung with many of them. 3. Next to my office is a good friend, a Libyan muslim man much older than me. He and I talk about this stuff, and he explains much of the Arab and muslim culture to me. 4. Talk radio, about 6 different shows a day. I listen off and on as I have time, not continually. Many things are discussed, and much of it is politics, where many viewpoints are brought up and debated. [/quote]

Ahh, so you have no real experience with the middle east...thought so. Sorry, but dating an Iranian and chatting with people who have been to (or are from) the middle east hardly qualifies you to pontificate about the effect that Durbin's comments are having on the street in the middle east, much less the effect they are having on insurgents and the manner in which they will now treat american troops as a result.

It's amazing how you think that that list of experiences qualifies you to say that Durbin is the problem...simply amazing.

The talk radio part doesn't surprise me, though. A little piece of advice, listening to Rush or Hannity or Savage or Boortz or any of the other talk radio people doesn't make you an expert in anything, but partisan political rhetoric. .

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=toasty][quote=pacific493]We don't cornhole our captives like the Mujahadeen (sp?) did in Afghanistan, we don't beat prisoners with sticks until they bleed, we don't hang people upside down and dunk their heads in water until they cannot breath.[/quote]

Uh, evidently we do, and lots of Americans are fine with it. :roll:

That's troubling...[/quote]

There are those among us that do, but that is not what true Americans would do because those are the tactics of our enemies and the enemies of freedom.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=robprunzit]Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it. [/quote]

As a matter of fact, I, like many Americans, did lose some friends and colleagues in that tragedy. You didn't have a monopoly on grief or outrage on 9/11, and you don't now.

That, however, is a different issue. You preface your remarks by saying, "I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK," and then you go on to suggest just that. Our children's history books will, for the first time, contain a section about how Americans were the architects of torture. Doesn't that bother you?

[quote] Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys[/quote]

Sounds to me like you've been listening to too much Karl Rove. I have fucking had it with neocons equating a desire to not torture people with a desire to coddle and "understand" terrorists. Remember what happened when we decided to go into Afghanistan? Apart from one lone jackassed dissenter, every single Senator and Rep, republican and democrat alike, voted to authorize Bush to use [b]whatever force was necessary[/b] to vindicate what happened on 9/11. If you seriously think there was an ideological difference at that point, I'd challenge you to point to some evidence of it.

[quote]Since these GITMO guys were all picked up in battle situations[/quote]

All? How about the folks that were rounded up here in the states and shipped down there? I seriously draw a distinction, as the Supreme Court did, between American citizens and folks rounded up in Afghanistan. Americans need to be charged and tried, and dealt with accordingly, whatever that entails -- if that means they're executed, I'm fine with that. Actual combatants can sit and rot as POWs as far as I'm concerned. We can interrogate them to our hearts content, and can use some pretty aggressive tactics to do so. They can't be tortured, though, because when we -- who have long held the position of being above such things -- bring the bar down to that level, everyone will drop to the lowest common denominator and our troops will absolutely be tortured when captured, at a minimum.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote]Excuse me, what is troubling, is the clear fact that you have forgotten 3000+ people did on 9/11 from people of the same mind and belief structure. America was attacked, and people groups from all over the world died that day in the most horrible way. Instant death, smoke, fire, being crushed, some fast, some slow, some jumping out of windows, some fallen with the buildings. [/quote]

While it seems to have become an acceptable tactic to conservatives that all arguments can be won with a vivid reference to 9/11, your response was...well...completely non-responsive.

[quote]I don't say this to make abuse or torture OK, but how can you forget why this is happening anyway. Maybe if you or someone like your family members were involved you would think a little deeper about it. Sounds like to me you guys want to defend these bad guys, who would slit your throat if they could use you for propaganda like they have so many, example Nick Berg. [/quote]

You may not intend for your position to make abuse or torture OK, but that is what you are doing. You are saying that it is ok, you are condoning its use and that is not what this country stands for. I hate to break it to you, but I and my family members are involved...we are all members of this country and we are all at risk from terrorist attacks. That being said, if this country lowers itself to the tactics used by our enemies, then we have already lost.

Ahhh, so now we are defending the bad guys...go ahead and take the next step...we're providing comfort and aid to the enemies and we are traitors...right? Isn't that where this is going? So now if we condemn torture and abuse (which you're not trying to make OK), we are defending the bad guys? Give me a break. The only thing I am defending are the ideals of this country...you're defending an "ends justifies the means" approach, which is the ideal underlying the worst abuses that we have seen.

[quote]Go view the beheading videos I posted, and think about it.[/quote]

I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk? [/quote]

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote]I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?[/quote]

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless][quote]I have seen them and they are horrific. Would you condone American soldiers beheading a terrorist if it would get another terrorist to talk?[/quote]

to save the many lives that terrorist would be glad to take if given the proper oppurtunity, then yes. like i said, i never want to be running down 5th avenue fearing for my life, and those of my family ever again. sad but completely true[/quote]

It's obviously the most difficult moral dilemma we could face (the one you point out). I go back and forth on that, but I fall more on the side of not wanting to stoop to their level. If we lose our ideals and give in to our baser emotions, then we are no better than they. Our ideals are worth dying and sacrificing for...if I had to sacrifice myself or my family and friends in order to protect the dignity and integrity of who I am as an American and who we are as a nation, as painful as it would be, I would do it. I am not a terrorist and will never act as a terrorist would act.

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?

Re: Sentaor Dick Durbin comments

[quote=thesightless]so you would sacrifice/risk lives to put morals over them?[/quote]

Boy, that's a loaded question. That assumes that torturing people actually does any good. Studies have shown it to be an ineffective tool in actually getting accurate information because people will say anything just to get the torture to stop. The info is worthless, and then you go back to them and do what? Torture them some more with more ferocity until they send you on another boondoggle?

If you could assure me that:

1. The people being tortured had relevant information, AND
2. They would "break" and provide that information, AND
3. The information they would provide would be accurate and timely, AND
4. Americans would be saved by torturing them.

...then maybe we've got a dilemma. As it stands, though, torture is just torture for torture's sake.

Look, I want to get these fuckers, too, but this ain't the way to go about it.