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Used to head to Church all the time, just for a fiddle from the priest.

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Can't say I waste my time going to church!

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Cool.

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took me 4 yrs to find a church here in FL... but it has been nice... making friends etc. there are a lot of churches I wouldn't like, but finding a cool one isn't so bad ;)

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there is no perfect church (always something to like/dislike) because they're all filled with imperfect people, but once in a while a church hits on all cylinders and seems perfect for you at that time, that's when it's really cool and a great place to attend!

What's up with the subject of this post "-"? It doesn't have one is confusing.

Oh, I get it, someone's been deleting their typing. :p

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Being married and having a 2 yr old son - I've found church to be much more beneficial in a variety of facets. #feelsgoodman

I don't know if it's related to joining a church or not, but since joining I've also joined a Gym, started eating (limited amounts of) meat again. And upgraded to a $1500 camera. :)

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^So if we all go to church, we all do as good as the above?

If any of my children (not particular on having any) quotes anything from the bible, I will forcefully make them revise Origins of Species cover to cover and rephrase line after line 3000 times, till the little shit knows right.

Moreover, I partake religion as a cultural identity of the overall existence of human development, we are pattern seeking, societal organisms, who innate chemical reactions as emotions. Much like love, envy, and the forth, all occurring and reoccurring within our right hemisphere of the brain.

I have no real objection to people practising religion, in whatever form it may seem. However, I am a strong secularist, and believe strongly on keeping the separation not just from state, but more so on anything. I do not partake on fictitious revelations to hold any accountability in the pessimisms of daily life.

But I'm happy for you religious people, for I cannot sustain any 'natural' forms of happiness nor [I]#feelsgoodman [/I]states with a strong separation of a deity.

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[QUOTE=Illuminate;1127352] But I'm happy for you religious people, for I cannot sustain any 'natural' forms of happiness nor [I]#feelsgoodman [/I]states with a strong separation of a deity.[/QUOTE]

So I am a "religious person" because I go to a church? By that logic, you must be a religious person because you go to restaurants.

Secondly, as much as you have tried to intellectualize the human experience, I would suggest that sharing spiritual experiences with other people, of different backgrounds, socioeconomic status's and races, and backgrounds is actually a rather enjoyable experience for ones spirit. ;)

It seems like you have a one size fits all idea of what a person must be like if they go to a church, but actually you are incorrect, especially a non-denominational church.

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1127438]So I am a "religious person" because I go to a church? By that logic, you must be a religious person because you go to restaurants..[/QUOTE]

If you don't go to church for a spiritual connection, more so attending a 'religious' ceremony in the 'house of god.' then why else would you though? as Chunky mentioned he used to go there to get a fiddle from the priest. More so, the term religion can be described in many ways, I see it best as the connection between the natural and supernatural through the naturals belief of having connected to the supernatural by transcendental means.

I think this lies within the whole concept of celebrating religion, more so in a Christian perspective (as it is the most incorporated within societal and judicial values), At Christmas and at Easter; are people celebrating for the reason of the 'spiritual' holiday or just to exchange gifts and maliciously defecate each other with chocolate?

Actually, what benefit can one attain, vice-versa by sharing spiritual experiences? Apologies for dwelling into the psychology of this question, but a former study by William James (1901), a leading philosopher, analysed on this reasoning by conveying his study on the science of Religion ([url="http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/wjames/varieties-rel-exp.pdf"]http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/wjames/varieties-rel-exp.pdf[/url])

Titled [I]The Varieties of Religious Experience[/I] he had found that "[I]Men’s religions need not be identical - is religion a “survival”of primitive thought[/I]?"

I don't have a problem with anyone practising religion, as I had mentioned above, but I may hold discourse on the enforcement of its value having no significant reasoning of its purpose to the evolvement of the individual.

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1127438]So I am a "religious person" because I go to a church? By that logic, you must be a religious person because you go to restaurants.

[QUOTE]You got to restaurants to eat, you go to churches to practice religion . :)[/QUOTE]

Secondly, as much as you have tried to intellectualize the human experience, I would suggest that sharing spiritual experiences with other people, of different backgrounds, socioeconomic status's and races, and backgrounds is actually a rather enjoyable experience for ones spirit. ;)

[QUOTE]And you can do all these things and more without ever stepping inside a church or practicing any form of religion. [/QUOTE]

It seems like you have a one size fits all idea of what a person must be like if they go to a church, but actually you are incorrect, especially a non-denominational church.[/QUOTE]

Btw Serious question, what constitutes a non denominal church ??

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[QUOTE=DIDI;1127668]Btw Serious question, what constitutes a non denominal church ??[/QUOTE]

[IMG]https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/97bb78fbc3b59142b2436009f2876798/tumblr_mgqzz568zi1rj82r7o1_500.png[/IMG]

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^^^ :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Why don't you "google it" :lol:

I like ine your signature didi - "the ""club spirit"" is in the soul."" It never dies"

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Are you trying to implement a connection between spirituality and religion? There is a distinction between this and a good read with relation to this I found was from this: [url="http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news-events/harvard-divinity-bulletin/articles/spiritual-but-not-religious"]Amy Hollywood - Spiritual but Not Religious | Harvard Divinity Bulletin[/url]

So the non denominal is related to Christianity?

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[QUOTE=Illuminate;1127740]Are you trying to implement a connection between spirituality and religion? There is a distinction between this and a good read with relation to this I found was from this: [URL="http://www.hds.harvard.edu/news-events/harvard-divinity-bulletin/articles/spiritual-but-not-religious"]Amy Hollywood - Spiritual but Not Religious | Harvard Divinity Bulletin[/URL]

So the non denominal is related to Christianity?[/QUOTE] Stopped reading at this. "The spiritual person has an immediate and spontaneous experience of the divine or of some higher power." Divinity and higher power are just not part of the spirituality I feel.

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1127703]Why don't you "google it" :lol:

I like ine your signature didi - "the ""club spirit"" is in the soul."" It never dies"[/QUOTE] Seeing you mentioned non denominational I assumed you would be the best person to ask about. :)

Now that sig is my idea of spirituality :) Just for the record I don't believe a soul is either divine or religious. Lots to learn yet :)

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[QUOTE=DIDI;1127753]Stopped reading at this. "The spiritual person has an immediate and spontaneous experience of the divine or of some higher power." Divinity and higher power are just not part of the spirituality I feel.[/QUOTE]

Providing some form of ammunition. Theology...

[QUOTE=nikoa;1127757]Yes.[/QUOTE]

After months if not years of silence and you give me this...

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^^^We are not much good to you are we ?? :lol:

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You southerners! :)

So dark and ambient.

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^^ hahaha!!

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Finding a good church was like searching for the perfect mix to take on a road trip. There are so many churches out there that I would never join. But we got lucky and found a good one. The pastor and his three brothers actually grew up in England for a while, so at least his perspective is broader than many.

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Non-denominational means it's not corporately tied to any denomination like Lutheran, Baptist, Episcopalian, Catholic, etc. Non-denominational Christian teaches Christianity. It's an independent church financially and in practice. Even non-denominational churches usually have a group of "elders" or those assigned to keep the church's finances and practices on target with their goals and accountable (like making sure a pastor isn't making off with all the tithes). Also, none of the pastors are ever aware of how much any particular individual tithes.

I go to (or watch online) a church more to get an educated person's (the pastor's) perspective on divinity in order to affect my own perspective on my own life & the relationships within it.

Non-denominational churches use their finances to support their own particular missions, helping particular groups of people who need help in this world and aren't able to get any in another way. When you find a church you like to attend because you value the pastor's perspective, style, etc. it's also a good fit if their missions are in line with your own values.

For instance, one of our church's mission is to feed orphans in Haiti where they created a girl's school there to feed and educate orphaned girls due to losing their parents to hiv/aids. Another might visit and act as a pen-pal to women in prison so they don't feel all alone or hopeless.

I go to hear an educated person's perspective of the Bible, sometimes I agree with what's said, other times I don't, but I remain open to the ideas. In fact, recently I was really, really offended by a guest speaker at our church and that sermon rattled in my mind for the rest of the week, it was very dark and negative -- no thank you! My family all felt the same. Sometimes our church really misses the mark with us -it's ok. I won't go into detail how they've flubbed up a holiday, and greatly offended me, haha, it happens, so what?

Spirituality is about your own personal experience with anything divine (source, creator, God, etc.) and some people get filled strictly by nature, which is also an experience of the divine. Other people believe music is the only link they need to a high power, that's cool too. For me, music is one aspect, I value other aspects as well.

I attended a few services of one non-denominational church whose sermons revolved around young people (16-25) and getting them to think independently from their parent's values. I felt like they discounted (almost demonizing) all older people and valued only the young and it was pretty blatant. "Speaking in tongues" and the young people all dancing around, it felt more like a cult to me -no thank you! But, it was interesting and I value the experience. Some pastors use the alter as a means to brainwash young minds, that's pretty awful I think.

I feel like I have to guard against putting much junk (i.e., news stories, crap TV, hideous music, etc.) in my mind unless I want alot of junk in my life. Going to church mostly helps put good stuff into my mind, therefore, a greater chance of getting good stuff out of life. It's not for everyone, but I enjoy open minds. Variety is the spice of life! No one likes to be "preached" to, certainly I don't.

Some of my most spiritual filling experiences have occurred all alone on a mountain top. Other times I have them when my entire church is singing a particular song and the music is really, really good... I like to be "moved" in that way. Occasionally, and I wish it happened more often, I'll hear a pastor say something that really resonates with me and I'll feel changed by learning something new... I like that too.

There's a quote somewhere I read that goes something like....Religion is about other people's divine experiences and spirituality is about having your own divine experience.

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Hugh Jackman illustrates it better than I could... I agree with much of what he says. I attend a church though for many of the above reasons that Kiwi stated. Nice post btw Kiwi.

[video=youtube;n1CfLH9jY_o]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n1CfLH9jY_o[/video]

[video=youtube;jL612CPmib8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jL612CPmib8[/video]

[video=youtube;MEIfCvQgJl4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEIfCvQgJl4[/video]

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I'm not a huge Hugh Jackman fan, but I enjoyed these videos and his open-mindedness. Listening to these made me like him much more.

I believe God/divine/source is love... not necessarily "everything everywhere." In all that discussion, he didn't really mention love. It's the single most important thing to give & receive. I agree God is in "the magic" of everything loving, the quiet space, where there is peace and peace within. I think where you find hate, bitterness, resentment, disdain, violence, you snip yourself off from your Source for a bit. But I do believe in non-duality and that when we die, we actually fully awaken to life. It's all clear in the non-physical... this physical life is all illusion for our learning & expansion. Emotions are guides & symbols too.

Thanks for posting these. Is your church a non-denominational Christian church? I assumed it was.

I think those who are missionaries going out to help others are altruistic, exceptional & divinely inspired, but I also don't subscribe to the belief we're called to suffer in this life for great rewards in heaven because that implies you have to earn your way in.

And I don't think it serves anyone to try to cram beliefs down anyone's throat "spreading the gospel." I have questions on a lot of that, just like he said. Maybe "spread the gospel" means more of a "talk to each other about this love" type of thing? I think it's important to feed, nurture, and help those hurting or going without.... well, those are all acts of love.

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So God is love?

You got Romans 12:9 telling me: Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good. However, you further pass into things like Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately. But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves. Numbers 31:17-18, or even He [Josiah] executed the priests of the pagan shrines on their own altars, and he burned human bones on the altars to desecrate them…. He did this in obedience to all the laws written in the scroll that Hilkiah the priest had found in the LORD’s Temple. Never before had there been a king like Josiah, who turned to the LORD with all his heart and soul and strength, obeying all the laws of Moses. And there has never been a king like him since. 2 Kings 23:20-25

And here's my non Hollywood based opinion on 'God'

[video=youtube;CGfelTnLIoI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CGfelTnLIoI[/video]

Pardon some obscure misconceptions.

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Another thing, if this non-denominational is independent of major Christian perceptions, couldn't it be regarded as Pantheism if it was totally independent? But... I don't think it has/will?

My whole argument on Religion is best decried with this:

[video=youtube;5xvILvxYbFA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5xvILvxYbFA[/video]

Again, apologies on the lack of Hollywood actors in this video.

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spirituality > religion

that is all :)

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I was giving my own comments on Hugh Jackman's videos, not quoting scripture.

I do, however, enjoy your ego trips, have 3 degrees myself (2 of which are in science), and own a successful business.

The most studied/educated scientists recognize a presence of a higher power outside of all laws of science/nature. Statistics hold no meaning for me & never have. I am interested in miracles and things outside of the laws of nature, things that cannot be scientifically explained and are out of our realm. If you can go there, I'll gladly join you.:D Thanks for sharing your views.

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Where does one commence, amongst contradiction?

[QUOTE=KiwiTollway;1128472] I was giving my own comments on Hugh Jackman's videos, not quoting scripture.

[QUOTE]Is this not the overall contradiction? As titled in the video 'Is Christianity a Ego Trip?' and a previous post I have resonated two valid psychological perceptions of individual consciences, Fritz's Balance theory and James' varieties on religious experiences. As confusing as it may have been, if the Bible, is the true and everlasting word, then why is not fulfilled to its complete perceptions, yet left to individual dichotomy? You stated: 'God' as love, thus the only form of justification I can exclaim of this is evidential from the Bible, for an Atheist cannot truly hold value to express God's love, if you get what I mean. However, the Bible says Christians should (in summary of a few verses) propose killings, murder other religious priests as they are not fulfilling 'God's' orgasmic narcissism? I guess my fault lies that I don't really understand how this so called God works, thus relating to scripture in the only evidence of this deity's proclamations. [/QUOTE]

I do, however, enjoy your ego trips, have 3 degrees myself (2 of which are in science), and own a successful business.

[QUOTE]I am truly happy for you. I appreciate the work and intellect the field of science holds, for the future of tomorrow is not possible without it, let alone the recount of yesterday is evidential with it. Please do not regard this as an ego trip, I just wanted to make a rebuttal, of a thread on an opposing point of two people who enjoy non-denominational churches, I simply just wanted to merely ask why, and point out on what I believe it bears no significance in individual reasoning. I don't think there has been many notified studies emphasising the value a faith in religion holds to do so. If you don't mind me asking what sciences did you study in? Just out of curiosity.[/QUOTE]

The most studied/educated scientists recognize a presence of a higher power outside of all laws of science/nature. Statistics hold no meaning for me & never have. I am interested in miracles and things outside of the laws of nature, things that cannot be scientifically explained and are out of our realm. If you can go there, I'll gladly join you.:D Thanks for sharing your views.

[QUOTE]Sorry, but I thought you studied science? How exactly are conclusions confined with evidence from statistical data? Albeit, qualitative/quantitative data holding no means? I understand forecasting errors, or regression residuals, yes they are accounted as errors and it is justified, but surely you have conducted and concluded many experiments based on statistical data, surely? What makes your account for having no reasoning to it? As a mere science observer and stepping into the academic field, I am curious to hear your views on this, as it may differentiate my views on any further experiments I may conduct with statistical data. In addition, your point about leading scientists on having a higher recognition higher than science/nature, well that is 'statistically deemed correct (DeGrasse Tyson's point) but I care of nothing what so ever what their beliefs are, I care again when this is biased against objectivity or encroachment of my beliefs and reasoning for holding trialled and tested methods by critical analysis and peer reviewed on its accuracy. [/QUOTE] [/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1128429]spirituality > religion

that is all :)[/QUOTE]

But... you believe in a Religion?

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I believe that religions are cultural and that many of the individuals who practice them are all believing in the same God.

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Yes that does make sense, as the origins of the three leading western religions all originated from was it Abraham? I haven't really looked into origins much, I do believe that no Eastern religion has no attachment to a God. Yes there is facets of multiple deities, but I don't think any really believe in the one single God, not really close to the views that the Western Churches may view 'God.'

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That's true.

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I love you Illuminate... that's divine/creator/God in me loving the origin of you. By that, I mean not where you came from as far as parents go, your looks, or your personality that developed, but from where you came from before any of that & beyond ego. When something inside anyone else resonates in you (beyond ego) and feels good, including all things of nature, things that resonate, can't put words to it, that's alignment with our creator. That's what I believe and that's love. When I move beyond this world, I will recognize Illuminate from the next level though we might never meet here.

It's interesting to me that Jesus came to earth to set people free from the laws of man, the laws that are all mentioned in the Bible, especially old testament craziness. He could set you free with a thought because every thought he had had power......free from inner bondage of illness, physical bondage, psychological bondage, all forms of "can't eat that, eat this, kill them, sacrifice this," troubles, etc. He is/was love. That love sets everything free, free to be loved, by that I mean BE not act. I'm interested in discussing being, not anyone's actions. Because I don't believe we are the sum of our actions/decisions/choices, efforts/behaviors, attachments/fears, etc. I, personally, don't believe we are. I know this goes against what most believe.

Education, science, all learning are forms of expansion. But, it's only the expansion that matters, especially expanding in love.

I am a Christian, but alot of typical Christian beliefs don't coincide with my beliefs and I'm fine with that, ego driven and non-ego driven. For example, last Sunday at our church the youth pastor spoke about how we have to first admit we're all unworthy of God's love, then ask for it and receive it. There are scriptures that describe unworthiness, but there are an equal number, if not more, of scripture that describe how worthy we all are. I think the point is we are of little understanding, but we are growing in understanding/comprehension of that love. Sometimes a sermon will resonate with me, doesn't make it more right or wrong, but at that very moment, it resonated and that was allowing me to be/feel loved at that moment. At a different moment, that same message might not resonate at all, might even tick me off, in that moment I am not feeling loved. So I extract the love experience whenever, wherever I can at the moment I'm in alignment with creator. In that way, I am steered via love.

You can call it intuitive or creativity, or an intangible awareness, but it's what's in between all that we see, more about how we feel on a deeper level... and that part of Jackman's videos I really enjoyed.

There are things you know that are outside all rules of nature/science or laws of man. Laws are important, I'm not saying they're not. But you/I can't explain how/why you know what you know all the time, sometimes you just know it. There are things I sense about you based on the words you type, beyond my senses (sense is just a word I'm using), and things you just know about me beyond what I type. This is fascinating, right? This is spirituality, not religion.

At the moments when attending a religious ceremony, such as at church, I am expanded in who I am. That expansion is great. And when it doesn't happen, that's great too because that helps hone me into what I want, what I believe, etc. Each day I cannot go back and be the person I was the day before because I take all experiences in and use them on my path for expanding my being (not my ego). I think our ego minds can keep us running around in circles in our wants & our wounds, replaying old tapes of our mother's [or whomever] words, comparisons, etc. But love allows you to be be you... without resistance.

I like that by attending a church, my funds can affect someone's life on the other side of the world, not because that makes me feel better about me (although it does), but because I value all life and believe all life is worthy of being honored, and I can't more easily reach the other beings over there. I don't believe there is horror/tragedy in death. In death, we simply return to our pure state of love. Love that is purely non-physical. I might have to die a certain way at a certain time to bring expansion/awareness to someone, or to more than one person who knew me, that's because we're all interconnected. Others won't be affected at all by my death maybe some will celebrate I'm gone. Love is in all of that, even in the way in which I die. If there's no love in any of it, if I didn't love while I was alive in physical form & there's no expansion anywhere because of my presence or absence, and if no one loved me, it's all pointless being... thus, God is love and that love is in all creation... in the stillness, in the meditation, in the chaos, maybe even in violence. I don't believe there is love in violence, but maybe that's because of my limited scope? It's in the expanding of your ability to love that makes life worthwhile. Everything else is just business & the passing of time.

As far as scientific experiments, they too, are for learning and expanding. It's a method of expanding that feels very comfortable to scientific type people, but it's also simply expansion. You cannot account for everything. They are, ultimately, only statistics, valuable to some, valuable to a degree, limited ultimately, important nonetheless, but I choose not to focus in that direction. I can still say to my child "60% of all African Americans are in prison in this country or 10% of all female college students will be raped.." or some other statistical facts [& these I just made up, true or not] if those statistics resonate with her being and lead her/him in a different direction, that exchange was important, not necessarily the statistics themselves. Statistics can help us learn about our physical world, but regardless of errors or accounting for the unaccountable, the unaccountable is what's really interesting to me. How did that baby seemingly come alive after being presumed & measured as dead for 2 hours after birth? That's fascinating! Scientists probably concluded it was because their measurements were off, or there was something intangible that took over between the exchange of a mother loving/grieving her dead child, it was the sound of her heart beat like music to the baby's hearing sense, it was the baby's power to live, it was the power of the physical touch or was it the power of a higher power? Most likely, different scientists concluded different forms of reasoning. There is peace in "I don't know, it's not up to me." And there is peace in "I must find out conclusively." It's all valid and reasonable, but the statistics themselves are only measurements of what we can measure. I like the unmeasurable, that's what I was saying.

I think I've beaten this all to death now, back to work.:what

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Do you remember that 'What if I told you?' video about something along the lines of Jesus is the answer, however Jesus only exists because of Religion? Paradoxical yes, mere stupidity surely not?

Well along those lines, What if I told you all of what you have stated above, about love, resonating charity, expansion at weddings, and warm feelings does not require a religion, science, or church to express this in its true nor humanistic ways?

And the most phrased verse from the Bible John 3:16 sounds something like this: For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Again, this God only sees value by killing? Supporting to previous views of abolishment of individual rights, purgery, moreover, sacrificing his only Son to somehow save us all? Did this God do not the same things with Abraham, bit of psychological foreplay to kill his son by a means as a test?

I really did not understand what the above presentation was about? I apologise for this, as I mentioned to you my atheistic views fail to comprehend anything with a sentence of God and love together as one. However, one thing I did find a common trait when I debate with other religious paradigms is the view of conversing away from the question I propose.

I had asked why you believe statistics is not important, and your answer related to made up statistics you 'resonate' to your child? The point I benign, is if you have studied the sciences you should surely answer this question, let alone parry away from a 'made up' statistics, and conclude on a baby being dead for two hours? For you see, my argument lies deep within this point, I can only affirm that statistical data is pretty valid in a myriad of studies, some of which I hope to validate on very soon. Climate change for example could not have been possible to validate without statistical data, The list is never ending with relation to this validity. So I may ask again why do you believe statistics is not important?

With allusion to the points above do you understand my some what head scratching why I still do not believe Religion, God, Jesus, can't really explain the unexplainable for me?

I may have to conclude on a personal hero of mine, Mr. Hitchens to 'resonate' what I believe should conclude this matter:

[I]“Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely soley upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.[/I]”

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Kiwi if you don't mind I like adding humorous quotes from members to my signature. If I may quote your first line from that previous post.

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haha, glad you found it humorous. You won my heart many posts ago.

I never mentioned expansion at weddings, don't know what that's about, and I never said statistics are unimportant so I cannot answer the question posed to me. Statistical data is very valuable. I sincerely apologize I don't have time to quote accurate ones and my example was a poor one. I never said church was required to experience things mentioned. I have tried to convey my thoughts/beliefs/perceptions "ad nauseam" so I now surrender. I believe we actually agree on many points. No need for scratching. I think my point was more that the statistics of what scientists believe is uninteresting to me. (I've been interrupted 6 times by children while trying to post my thoughts this evening.) Sorry if this sounds scattered.

If you'd like a better example of a real-life physical/spiritual experience that defies science, logic, and statistics more so than the new-stillborn baby brought back to life, I recommend the memoir by Anita Moorjani "Dying To Be Me" for your consideration, if you're so inclined. She was raised Hindu... makes no matter to me. Her experience/story is fascinating.

Thank you kind person. "[I]We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, open-minded-ness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake.[/I]” -Christopher Hitchens

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Beautifully articulated Kiwi, enjoyed reading your posts. :Smiley:

[QUOTE][COLOR=#CCCCCC]I like that by attending a church, my funds can affect someone's life on the other side of the world, not because that makes me feel better about me (although it does), but because I value all life and believe all life is worthy of being honored, and I can't more easily reach the other beings over there. I don't believe there is horror/tragedy in death. In death, we simply return to our pure state of love. Love that is purely non-physical. I might have to die a certain way at a certain time to bring expansion/awareness to someone, or to more than one person who knew me, that's because we're all interconnected. Others won't be affected at all by my death maybe some will celebrate I'm gone. Love is in all of that, even in the way in which I die. If there's no love in any of it, if I didn't love while I was alive in physical form & there's no expansion anywhere because of my presence or absence, and if no one loved me, it's all pointless being... thus, God is love and that love is in all creation... in the stillness, in the meditation, in the chaos, maybe even in violence. I don't believe there is love in violence, but maybe that's because of my limited scope? It's in the expanding of your ability to love that makes life worthwhile. Everything else is just business & the passing of time.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I have found that sometimes people who have a hard time with the Loving God concept also have a hard time with the concept of total forgiveness for their sins, or of the sins of someone in their life. Their parents might have practiced a religion or not, but didn't walk the walk, they just went practiced the religiousness for religions sake. Or lead a life weighed down by sin against them, holding grudges, never really letting go and therefore never fully living a free existence to love freely. I think these are some of the reasons people can't wrap their minds around "God." Not saying this applies to Illuminate, who I also have always enjoyed discourse with in MS, just throwing it out there really. Many times my conversations with people who have the toughest time were raised Catholic, or have some Catholic connection in their family which has thoroughly turned them away from the idea of God and church, sadly. Other times it's as simple as some people open admitting to me they don't feel worthy of being forgiven, for reasons usually stemming from childhood. Again, not saying this applies to you Illuminate. I guess part of my point is that regardless of the accuracy of the bible or the reality of their being 1 God and his son being Jesus (which I do believe) but regardless of those concepts being accurate, I personally really enjoy the notion of feeling forgiven, not carrying around the weight of the worlds sins and my own all the time.. Which I might add is easy for me to feel when I feel disconnected from "God." This forgiveness allows me to forgive others more freely on micro and macro levels, and allows me to see them in a certain way that may or may not be possible otherwise. On a level higher than just the human level.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think it's really really unfortunate that the way in which some individuals have practiced religion has turned away others from embracing spirituality.

BTW, this is a great album for reading Kiwi's posts to :lol: [IMG]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.png[/IMG] [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6ih1aKeETk"]Tycho - Dive {Full Album} - YouTube[/URL]