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^ Thank you for associating anything I wrote with that beautiful music, how delightful!!

I have found the same thing regarding people with ties to Catholicism. Rather than finding they are no longer embracing a spiritual walk, I think it's more they are distancing themselves from organized religion in general because of their experiences involving Catholicism. To stop growing spiritually for any reason is really sad, I so agree, but probably everyone goes through that at one time or another. Bad experiences can do that to people for awhile. i get it.

I also believe there is one true God and in the trinity-- Father, Son & Holy Spirit. I am exploring the Holy Spirit now in my walk with Christ. And here's the thing...to any small, innocent child, their parents represent gods to them. Since parents often bring their own flaws into parenthood, that experience for a child can have lasting effects on their spiritual walk. (I think abused children are the hardest adults to reach spiritually.)

Christianity is not like a salad bar where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you.... like forgiveness, which is a good example of an aspect people, of course, find easy to embrace. Forgiveness can be used by some as a sweeping brush allowing anything and everything and relying on that promised forgiveness to cover it "well, I know I'm forgiven" when in context it says "go and sin no more" don't forget. (not saying you do that, just saying.) Whereas "love covers a multitude of sins."

One of my favorite ages of my kids is when they're about 3 years old and could articulate their thoughts/feelings, but still come from a rather pure spiritual place. My youngest used to look at himself in the mirror to talk to Jesus. How telling is that? An innocent child goes to the mirror... because he knows God is IN him, not just all around him, maybe he knows this spiritually? I know no one taught him that. You can learn a lot about God through a young child.... they live in the now, everyday is new, they easily forgive & love everyone, they want to have fun, laugh, enjoy life, they can see a person's heart not just their behavior & looks, they have preferences but those preferences are ever changing while some remain constant.

I remember when I was growing up, looking in the mirror was a kind of reassurance "Yea, I'm still here" and there was some kind of comfort in seeing my image. And it's like I know deep inside when I'm reflecting God, or when I'm not... I can tell by the way I feel inside about myself. Notice how you feel when you're mean or angry to someone vs how you feel being kind/gentle with anyone. Isn't that God directing you and saying "I am love inside you" ? I think so. If you can see value in every person, whether they are reflecting Christ or not, they might be reflecting the opposite of Him, every bit of information helps you see Him more clearly because it expands your awareness.

I wasn't raised in a spiritual way, so when I was growing up and anyone even mentioned Jesus, I felt insulted inside as if just His name, that word, made me less than an actual person, one who made mistakes. That was my ego-driven mind exerting that no one was more important than how I felt inside. That part of your ego, the part that has to have concrete answers, has to have evidence, has to wrestle every concept to the ground until it's dead & makes sense, that part has to die for the greater part of faith to grow inside you. Knowing we live in a miracle-drenched world where so many things happen that no one can explain, it gives me great comfort, which is love also.

God doesn't conjure bad things to happen unless they serve the purpose of expanding a person's awareness of their connection with Him. [These are just my own views. I don't claim to really know.] He has the power and it's too complex for me to understand the "whys" because only the creator has the bigger view; I'm a mere, tiny flashlight, I can only direct anyone towards what I, myself, have seen. I've been like Job wrestling with God and wanting to know purpose of pain/suffering, of loss, of everything. There's just so much love & comfort in the Bible (like in the world), why would anyone purposely point out or focus on the violence? What purpose does that serve? What you focus on becomes your reality. How much more important is gratitude? Immensely!! Job lost everyone and everything he held dear to learn these concepts. Because someone doesn't recognize God is there, doesn't mean God isn't STILL actively involved in that person's life.

Job 33 (The Message version).....

God always answers, one way or another, even when people don’t recognize his presence.
[SUP]15-18 [/SUP]“In a dream, for instance, a vision at night, when men and women are deep in sleep, fast asleep in their beds— God opens their ears and impresses them with warnings To turn them back from something bad they’re planning, from some reckless choice, And keep them from an early grave, from the river of no return.

[SUP]19-22 [/SUP]“Or, God might get their attention through pain, by throwing them on a bed of suffering, So they can’t stand the sight of food, have no appetite for their favorite treats. They lose weight, wasting away to nothing, reduced to a bag of bones. They hang on the cliff-edge of death, knowing the next breath may be their last.

[SUP]23-25 [/SUP]“But even then an angel could come, a champion—there are thousands of them!— to take up your cause, A messenger who would mercifully intervene, canceling the death sentence with the words: ‘I’ve come up with the ransom!’ Before you know it, you’re healed, the very picture of health!

[SUP]29-30 [/SUP]“This is the way God works. Over and over again He pulls our souls back from certain destruction so we’ll see the light—and [I]live [/I]in the light!

Job 35: [SUP]9-15 [/SUP]“When times get bad, people cry out for help. They cry for relief from being kicked around, But never give God a thought when things go well, when God puts spontaneous songs in their hearts, When God sets out the entire creation as a science classroom, using birds and beasts to teach wisdom. People are arrogantly indifferent to God— until, of course, they’re in trouble, and then God is indifferent to them. There’s nothing behind such prayers except panic; the Almighty pays them no mind. So why would he notice you just because you say you’re tired of waiting to be heard, Or waiting for him to get good and angry and do something about the world’s problems?

Job 42:

[SUP]1-6 [/SUP]Job answered God: “I’m convinced: You can do anything and everything. Nothing and no one can upset your plans. You asked, ‘Who is this muddying the water, ignorantly confusing the issue, second-guessing my purposes?’ I admit it. I was the one. I babbled on about things far beyond me, made small talk about wonders way over my head. You told me, ‘Listen, and let me do the talking. Let me ask the questions. [I]You[/I] give the answers.’ I admit I once lived by rumors of you; now I have it all firsthand—from my own eyes and ears! I’m sorry—forgive me. I’ll never do that again, I promise! I’ll never again live on crusts of hearsay, crumbs of rumor.”

And because Job was honest with God, careful always with his words & thoughts, not listening to gossip & hearsay, no longer questioning every move God made in his life, Job's entire life was restored with blessings 100x more than he experienced in the first part of his life. Honesty/truth is love. When any religion is dishonest, teaching lies about power, lies against what they truly know in their hearts is the truth, that's when I want nothing to do with any organized religion either, because it's no longer loving people, but using them. They teach love is testing, love is hard, good is difficult work, but truthfully, love is easy, easy like when we're little children and haven't been conditioned into believing we're inherently bad. All you really have to be is the loving human being He created you to be, nothing more, nothing less. If you're not you, you're not love.... because God is IN you, he's in your love. Now that's freedom!! [my own opinion]

Currently in my spiritual walk, I have exhausted all my petitions, my questions, my complaints, all blame and agony. Now, I am looking inward to what God says to me, directly, and I've found He speaks through everything and everyone, music, nature, everything, including Illuminate. He speaks to me through words of love that He knows touch/move me in a certain way with resonance.... I've found resonance is like a switch I just turned on and got in tune to.... and that's how I know it's Him coming through... that comforting resonance that I don't have words for, it just speaks to my spirit in a way I can't explain... I just know God is love. I know what I know because I know what I know. I can't explain it, prove it, etc.

:LoveYou::LoveYou::LoveYou::LoveYou: that tycho music, thank you so much FL!! This has been fun connecting in this way! On with life.....

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[QUOTE=KiwiTollway;1128694] [B]Christianity is not like a salad bar where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you.[/B]... like forgiveness, which is a good example of an aspect people, of course, find easy to embrace.[B] Forgiveness can be used by some as a sweeping brush allowing anything[/B] and everything and relying on that promised forgiveness to cover it "well, I know I'm forgiven" when in context it says "go and sin no more" don't forget. (not saying you do that, just saying.) Whereas "love covers a multitude of sins." ..[/QUOTE]

Not sure what the "salad bar/picking and choosing what theology suits you" means in the context of this discussion...

As for the part about people using "forgiveness" to justify sinning... it's not really what I'm referring to. It's more about the grace aspect of forgiveness. Giving and receiving grace for yourself and for others. We are all sinners, we all make mistakes, we all are far far far from perfect. Given that, it's just really really important to forgive yourself, be good to yourself and allow God to forgive you, for anything frankly. I don't really get hung up on the legalistic aspects of Christianity, at all.

I also believe that "Christians" worship different definitions of "God." It's not as if all Christians view who God is the same way.

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1128704]Given that, it's just really really important to forgive yourself, be good to yourself and allow God to forgive you, for anything frankly. I don't really get hung up on the legalistic aspects of Christianity, at all.[/QUOTE]

I so completely agree with you; that's so very true. Was I sounding legalistic? yiiiiikes... I hope not.

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1128627] Not saying this applies to Illuminate, who I also have always enjoyed discourse with in MS, just throwing it out there really.

Again, not saying this applies to you Illuminate.

So I guess what I'm trying to say is, I think it's really really unfortunate that the way in which some individuals have practiced religion has turned away others from embracing spirituality.

[/QUOTE]

In fact, relating me to having a tough catholic upbringing, is not only an insult to me but to my parents as well. What right nor fact can you individually permeate within my up bringing on why I think any form of religion is utter nonsense more than anything. My father was an academic and a practising engineer, he expressed a strong view of atheism within the household, there you can conclude how this had worn off on me. :)

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1128704] I also believe that "Christians" worship different definitions of "God." It's not as if all Christians view who God is the same way.[/QUOTE]

Ahh now we're getting somewhere, amidst the contradiction on all of the above posts have gotten, shall we amidst on your perception that religion is a personal observation?

Much like Depeche Mode - Personal Jesus?

More to your response Kiwi, is this a fight amongst Christians trying to understand their own religion?

A great way I understand religion is as And as expressed by Pascal Boyer: ‘Our minds are prepared [for belief] because natural selection gave us particular mental predispositions.’ This is evidential through our ancestors, much before Adam and Eve ever came into existence. Some chose to comprehend the deity bears significance, some chose no, and conclude that it gets in the way of progress and has no previous liberating evidence.

And Florida, a good article to maybe having an evidence on your conclusions why Atheists are Atheists: [URL="http://www.tandfonline.com.wwwproxy0.library.unsw.edu.au/doi/abs/10.1080/0048721X.2013.841110"]

Three cognitive routes to atheism: a dual-process account[/URL] David Peter Kalkman [URL="http://www.tandfonline.com.wwwproxy0.library.unsw.edu.au/toc/rrel20/44/1"] Religion [/URL] Vol. 44, Iss. 1, 2014

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From previously readingBreaking the Spell: Religion as a Natural Phenomenon by Daniel Dennett, there was a quote I searched and finally found, that I believe looks at the in-necessity of a need for religion, moreover its prudentials to spirituality;as there is none :

“If you can approach the world's complexities, both its glories and its horrors, with an attitude of humble curiosity, acknowledging that however deeply you have seen, you have only scratched the surface, you will find worlds within worlds, beauties you could not heretofore imagine, and your own mundane preoccupations will shrink to proper size, not all that important in the greater scheme of things. Keeping that awestruck vision of the world ready to hand while dealing with the demands of daily living is no easy exercise, but it is definitely worth the effort, for if you can stay centred, and engaged , you will find the hard choices easier, the right words will come to you when you need them, and you will indeed be a better person. That, I propose, is the secret to spirituality, and it has nothing at all to do with believing in an immortal soul.”

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On the point of Christianity not being a "Salad Bar" you two believing in a [I]Non-Denominational [/I]church is that not in any sense a selection of your religion, "where you get to pick & choose what theology suits you"?

I merely applaud on this, when you debate with more than one religious person. After a while they end up winding each others knots on individual interpretations, and you get the rest...

Back to my lemon squash,

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No one concluded you had any Catholic upbringing or experience Illuminate.. in fact, you even quoted him as saying he was NOT applying any of that to you. I thought you left the conversation. I got what FL was expressing there and I was trying to agree. But, I think my own views got convoluted somehow and I feel I'm not expressing myself well here anymore.

I really don't know what FL means by Christians worshiping different definitions of God. I didn't mean for the conversation to go in that direction and I didn't mean to seem legalistic. I am not "trying to understand" Christianity as much as I am always learning about it and my own spirituality. I stay open to experiences of learning and enjoy something that resonates with me.

I spent most of my early decades pretty much not believing in anything, but I still prayed when faced with scary situations. I don't believe I have a mental predisposition for any particular belief seeing as I believe the opposite of almost every single person in my family.

This has become less fun now so I am bowing out. Thanks!

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[QUOTE=KiwiTollway;1128755]No one concluded you had any Catholic upbringing or experience Illuminate.. in fact, you even quoted him as saying he was NOT applying any of that to you. I thought you left the conversation. I got what FL was expressing there and I was trying to agree. But, I think my own views got convoluted somehow and I feel I'm not expressing myself well here anymore.

[QUOTE]I think you may have not understood the full message[/QUOTE]

I really don't know what FL means by Christians worshiping different definitions of God. I didn't mean for the conversation to go in that direction and I didn't mean to seem legalistic. I am not "trying to understand" Christianity as much as I am always learning about it and my own spirituality. I stay open to experiences of learning and enjoy something that resonates with me.

[QUOTE]Ok, awesome, even you fail to understand this, as much as I do,[/QUOTE]

I spent most of my early decades pretty much not believing in anything, but I still prayed when faced with scary situations. I don't believe I have a mental predisposition for any particular belief seeing as I believe the opposite of almost every single person in my family.

[QUOTE]Sorry, you did believe in something. You prayed when 'faced with scary situations.' So... if you pray I believe that yes you are a believe in a deity and practise a form of religion.[/QUOTE]

This has become less fun now so I am bowing out. Thanks![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Thanks for your time. I hope you're more confused than I ever was about Religion, more so the idiocracy of Christianity. [/QUOTE]

:)

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One more to round out this thread, [h=1]“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him will believeth in anything. - Hitchens 3:16”[/h]

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I was raised in a religious home, and I believe firmly that there are many benefits to attending a church, regardless of ones beliefs. I may have said some things earlier that were too blunt, but basically what the reason why is due to my early experiences in church. So much politics and legalism. But you take the good with the bad, and mostly I am glad I went with my family growing up. I think there is way too much religion for sure, and I don't think a person has to go every sunday or read their bible every night, or pray before every meal, in fact less of that is better. The "salad bar" phrase I have heard many times at church camps, so it just kind of sent shutters down my spine :lol:.

Most humans are on a spiritual or intellectual journey in life if they are at all self-actualized, and I don't think they have to go to church to be a good person or anything like that. In fact I have several atheist friends, and they are great people and I would never tell them what to do. All I was saying to start with is, I happened to find a church that I like. I did not think that was possible in Central Florida, where I thought all churches were too kooky here. It's nice to connect with other families our age and just get together for positivity sake.

My goal is to start a homeless outreach program via this church. I don't pretend to believe church is just about ME and MY family. It's about helping each other and showing my son and wife examples of other families who are going through the same things we are, helping my wife feel more connected with her community and things of that nature. I try to keep things simple, moderate and open, not saying I know what's right for anyone else. It is in my nature though to help people, I tend to care more than a lot of people do about people I don't know, that's part of how I was raised.

Have an intellectual, good, blessed, terrible day, it's all a part of the human experience after all. Most of life involves suffering, may as well suffer together, going about it alone is not ideal, but is an option. :)

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Illuminate, I'm not confused whatsoever. I am not at all confused about what I believe. There is no confusion, no fog, nothing cloudy, muddy, with me about this. Trying to relay what I believe on a forum of strangers using words typed on a keyboard is somewhat a challenge. Would you like me to go over John 3:16 in the detail as I understand it? (btw, it is engraved on a plaque in my living room.) Or any scripture that has you so flabbergasted so many believe in and have for thousands of years, I am willing to give you my best attempt.

I understand you find my beliefs incredibly foolish. We can hijack this thread if you'd like. I'm only working a half day today because I have company coming in this weekend and wanted to get somethings ready here at home for my guests. But let me be very clear about my intentions, I have no wish to convince you, convert you, or make you believe anything other than what you believe. I am willing to open myself to your scrutiny because that exposure doesn't bother me in the slightest. I am not God, and I don't pretend to be, or to have all the answers. But, I have a relationship I can tell you about if you're interested.

Let me ask you .... Is your father still living? How about your mother? Have you ever reached the end of yourself at anytime in your life yet? If you haven't, I believe you will at some point (maybe, maybe not). Have you ever had something happened that literally knocked you down it was so shocking, jolting, upsetting? Or has life been relatively smooth and easy for you thus far? I'm just curious. If anything ever really jolting happens to you, something that fills you with angst and unanswered questions, maybe you'll be inclined to contact Kiwi? I'd like that.

I believe it is a natural state of being to reach the end of yourself at some point in time. Does it mean you'll change your beliefs when that happens, who knows? Maybe not. I certainly don't pretend to know the future. I can only relay to you what I've lived firsthand. I know you think of Christianity as some foolish philosophical justification or mental adaptation or whatever, but I can assure you (better if we were talking face to face to each other) it is part of my life inside my inner being and it has manifested things for me I could never have conjured, things of which I have no control, things of which there are no scientific answers, and in fact, were against ALL odds and statistical probability. I can't go into detail here because it's too personal and I am not that type of person. But I can give you some glimpses of details...................

I have been spoken to (not audibly, but through thoughts) in my dreams, I have been prompted outside of my capabilities, I have been pushed outside of my own free will, I have witnessed miraculous manifestations right before my eyes; it's not as if some person told me to believe this so I did, not at all. In fact, I'd say I fought against it as hard as you are/do. And I had no family atmosphere at home sending me in this direction, I had quite the opposite. I think even Atheists have faith in something, maybe it's themselves, nature, biology/science, but they believe something. And with faith as small as the tiniest seed, it's still faith.

In my neighborhood growing up, we had some Catholic families and I thought they were weird. My mother would turn in disgust at how many children they had and she'd whisper to me "they don't believe in birth control, how horrendous!" And I thought anyone who went to church was really weird... because my mother thought that too. And for years, I'd go to a funeral or wedding and I'd think "This stuff is so foreign and feels so uncomfortable, these people are crazy to do these things, think these things!"

Then I started experiencing loss and lots of it. Things were happening in my family that involved very hurtful lies and it was all very much out of my control, and nothing was how I always thought they were, people I loved dearly were being terribly hurt, and none of it was within my control, and that hurt me, really, really badly, and I was extremely confused. As I looked outside of my own family situations, I wondered about people who had more peaceful lives and why was my family situation such a mess? Why do some people not have to experience loss early in their lives and while others do? I felt very much "Why me? Why this?" and "I do not want this." Then, things got worse!!! I mean, really worse!! I thought "Ok, this IS unbearable." I thought "THIS is MY life, you have to be kidding me? THIS is horrible!!" Have you ever thought that? It was very, very personal, not of my choosing, and I hardened up fast. I was so hardened I didn't care about anyone or anything. I had to just get through each day with whatever comfort I could find, and I found some, and just kept putting one foot in front of the other.

Then one day when I was about 21, a total stranger came up to me at work in the lunch room and said "He knows everything that has ever happened to you just as he's counted every single hair on your head." And I thought "Freak!!! Get away from me!" to her. I gobbled down my french fries and I never went near her again. lolz

What I'm saying is, I get where you're coming from. And I know you can stay there easily and maybe you will. But with this life, you just never know do you? I never asked questions you're asking or even engaged in conversation with people about it, but they sought me out. They came into my awareness at random times and said seemingly random things to me, but I can look back now and say "I was sought after." There was seeking and it was not of my doing. I was not seeking. I wondered why things happened to me and my family and not to everyone else I ever knew, but I thought it was just bad luck. Like a bad deck of cards I thought I was handed. My mother would say "Deal with the cards you're dealt that's all you can do" and so that's all I knew to do. I tried that and it just didn't work out for me. I had dreams of a better life. But believe me, I did not seek any religion, wasn't taught it, had no idea anything about it until it started very, very slowly finding me .....by a word here, a word there, a kindness unexpected, an unconditional friend, still I resisted.

And today... I'm "the freak" discussing these things with you. haha.... that's life for ya! A big, wide circle I guess.

Talk to ya later if you want "Mr Hitch." If not, I'm down with letting this all drop. Back to basking in the sun under my red striped umbrellas....and I think I'll listen to tycho, dive again today... so peaceful.

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FL gives me tingly goosebumps!

(just read his post after I posted mine. enjoyable post FL)

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This thread to me resembles a scab that you just have to keep on picking; the scab in my individual opinion is the mere illusion of religion, and its portrayal in our lives. Once burdened by a deity, the scab – it never heals, as much as our mediocre obsessions to relieve, depress, or medicate it, the blasphemous nor arrogant opinions it derives cannot transcend the individuals opinions that everything will be all right if we surrender. More so, profane our sub consciousness to an all loving, ever caring, jealous God, prophesising a mediated reclamation, in all accounts. The way I have viewed this objectivity of God, from all Western religions (Eastern seemed too complex to grasp), was in fact that all humans are bound by a burden of sin. Where you can in assembly, have these sins removed by begging forgiveness, and in stating your vulgar proclamation of repaying a sin as a currency, whilst in a sense the currency is calculated by the means of transpiring ‘love.’ As evident in Florida’s post of [I]I personally really enjoy the notion of feeling forgiven, not carrying around the weight of the world’s sins and my own all the time... Which I might add is easy for me to feel when I feel disconnected from "God.” This forgiveness allows me to forgive others more freely on micro and macro levels, and allows me to see them in a certain way that may or may not be possible otherwise. On a level higher than just the human level.[/I]
The religious proclamation of love I define as almost a commandment form the supernatural, you must love the ‘God’ in return for forgiveness, or forever hold your final judgement to the perils of hell. Is this not a sense of contradiction not a mere paradox of expressing love bound by a commitment to the deity? Furthermore, God has you under appeal for your somewhat ‘eternal’ life. I ask what is the difference of this from a dystopian view on the operations of society, having an invisible dictator controlling your actions with no consequences?

Kiwi I respect you as a person, and irrespective of my religious views, I believe you hold an equal if not a greater necessity to the overall contribution our existence. However, I must make note that most of your posts in any thread seem to be held subservient to Florida’s, for yes we all take sides, more so it could be a formal attraction, but I have always viewed that Religion treats if not degrades women. I cannot comprehend why you do this, but as an individual you may posing to seek a vagrant connection, or even a framework of moral/subconscious support. Women as portrayed in religious views I cannot agree with. If the origins story, and that is as far as it remains in its epilogue claimed The Lord God said "It is not suitable for the man to be alone, I will make a helper for Him (Genesis 2:19). Thus, from the creation of the human species, the woman has always been only a helper, in religious dichotomy. This does not obviously only resound in Christianity but continues in the horrific treatment within and against Islam, and the obscure treatment of women in Judaism excluded from prayers, and the obscure tradition of holding [I]Mikveh[/I], to name a few. I suppose much like other fence sitters, in need of an understanding found the omnipresence within supernatural forms, on the progression if not advancement of the spiritual self, much like yourself with Florida, has a relation that you agree if not correspond with. I cannot claim this, as I do not only have nil regards to faith, henceforth believe in individual persistence rather than the supernatural or figures.

Your claim that [I]I have witnessed miraculous manifestations right before my eyes, [/I]I regard as utter nonsense (you guessed it) for reading David Hume’s’ enquiry concerning human understanding written in 1776 mind you. He noted that In the foregoing reasoning we have supposed, that the testimony, upon which a miracle is founded, may possibly amount to an entire proof, and that the falsehood of that testimony would be a real prodigy: But it is easy to shew, that we have been a great deal too liberal in our concession, and that there never was a miraculous event established on so full an evidence. I may view miracles as utter nonsense, but I may not hold any opinion onto your views. For within our dominions, we are freed to express our proclamations.

In some way, you may be asking why am I such a ‘God hater,’ well the deprivation on quotes like; Things of which there are no scientific answers, and in fact, were against ALL odds and statistical probability. I can't go into detail here because it's too personal and I am not that type of person. But [I]I can give you some glimpses of details [/I]is why I have such strong opinionated views of religion. The constant views of the religious person/group have an uttermost personal connection to the deity who frees them to the good times ahead. The encumbrance of influence it has in politics, legal perceptions, protesting with pitch stakes on advances in science, homosexuality, abortion, liberation, and to say the least the millennia’s of wars, torture, hatred and loss of innocent lives due to a religious proclamation. In recent times a view on this ([URL]http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/irish-church-under-fire-over-childrens-mass-grave/2014/06/03/1c6520e8-eb59-11e3-b10e-5090cf3b5958_story.html[/URL])

Nevertheless, my foremost abhorrence relies on the contradiction it is euphemised in its existence. As I love bickering Christianity I must look to the divine if not near Mary like saint of Mother Theresa. The Catholic’s answer to Margret Thatcher, who in her later years had expressed her loss of he faith in letters sent to the heads of the Catholic Church at the time. Quotes like: [B][I]I call, I cling, I want ... and there is no One to answer ... no One on Whom I can cling ... no, No One. Alone ... Where is my Faith ... even deep down right in there is nothing, but emptiness & darkness ... My God ... how painful is this unknown pain ... I have no Faith ... I dare not utter the words & thoughts that crowd in my heart ... & make me suffer untold agony.[/I][/B]
And in response to these letters, the bishop who canonised her as a saint, the Rev Brian Kolodiejchuk, who has prepared an edition of her letters as part of the evidence that she really was a saint. "It will give a whole new dimension to the way that people understand her," he told Time magazine ([URL]http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2007/aug/24/wasmotherteresaanatheist[/URL])

Thus, keep your feel-good traditions away from law, the state, and me. For I may rest another day. Much like the founding fathers of America, that had made of what it is today held such a great secularism, and should be congratulated on such an effort for posing moral, ethical, and prolusion without spirituality.

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"Thus, keep your feel-good traditions away from law, the state, and me." Illuminate, I will keep my thoughts away from you as you desire, but your statement is not true regarding the law or the states. After all I've revealed to you about my own experiences, and you have revealed nothing & answered no questions I posed to you, that you can call what I've written "feel good traditions" is beyond me. I've opened myself up far more than you have to me and yet you call my experiences "claims" okay then, I see where I stand now.

I apologize for not making myself as clear as you'd like me to regarding my own experiences. I am subservient to no man [or woman] of any kind regardless of their race, age, or religion, I assure you of that, you're right. I don't know if you're from Sydney or America, but if you reside here in America, your house, car, toilet paper, everything, and anything you have were ALL purchased with currency that reads "[I]In God We Trust[/I]" and this country was fathered/founded in prayer and Christianity with the law that all are free to believe what they want to believe. This country's pledge states "...[I]One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all..[/I]." and every court proceeding begins with an oath to the Bible to speak honestly throughout the proceeding. If you're in Sydney (as your profile says), I have no idea what that currency is based off or their foundations. Again, I apologize for my lack of education on those matters.

I made a joke to FL because he said my "salad bar" analogy sent "shutters down his spine" I think is what he said... maybe he meant "shivers?" I thought it was funny and so added my goosebumps comment. I don't know why he kind of resonates with me, I guess it's because, thus far, he's been the kindest, most open poster to me here since I joined.

One cannot compare non-denominational Christian beliefs to those of Catholics because there are distinct differences, especially in your characterization of how sin is regarded and in relation to love. I have no knowledge of bishops or sainthoods. Our God gives us free will to make any decisions we want to make, He holds nothing against us in regards to loving him or not as far as His loving us because He is constant, never changing, whereas, we can be/act all over the place. And nothing we do or don't do affects his forgiveness, but that's not how Catholics believe or interpret the Bible and what they do is none of my business. God is love, therefore, if you love a mustang convertible, God is in you. If you love your children (don't know if you have any). if you love yourself, or have ever loved anyone else, your creator's love is in you. I know you find it hilarious that I see that love in you, but I still do; it's still quite evident, but I don't want to offend you or pick a scab, or be a thorn in your side with any of this.

I can only relay to you from the person I am today trying to explain Christian beliefs, which does not mean I'm on a fence. I am not. I'm also not trying to cram anything down your throat because I, myself, hate that and have been on the receiving end of that in my life from well-meaning Christians. No human being is perfect. But I don't hold what some do against the whole lot of them, not even Catholics, although I've had some very bad experiences with that form of organized religion as many people have as well in our society.

On the points you made, well... the Bible tells us to "take captive every thought to make it obedient" and "whatever things are true, whatever things are honest, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, [B]think on these things[/B]," therefore, it's clear the battle is in our minds in regards to faith, suffering, agony. But, it takes practice to control one's thoughts and no one teaches this to their children (how to do it) so we're conditioned to believe what we think even when our thoughts have no basis in truth. No sees things completely clearly through their thoughts, we can only know what we see/experience without knowing/seeing the bigger picture involved. Much agony begins with our minds, because our thoughts are constantly running, if we don't take control of them, they run rampant with our egos like wild horses, & that causes us trouble. We don't think with our hearts, as quoted, we think with our minds.... but our minds are playgrounds. The quotes you mentioned remind me of this - conscious thought running a muck. Somewhere in the stillness of ourselves, for instance when we meditate or just before we awaken from a deep sleep, before all the mind chatter begins, that's when our Source, our Creator has a chance to speak to us, prompt us, inspire us, because the rest of the time we're reading things on the internet and taking in all kinds of crap into our minds. But then also, there are things we just know because we know and we can't explain how/why we know something, for instance, at a pertinent moment, or how/why we can sometimes find just the right words, sometimes we can't. What do you call all of that, random chance? Is all of life just random to you? I'm really interested in how you explain these things. I'm also really interested in the questions I asked you, which you answered none of. I'm sincerely interested. But if you want to keep the conversation at this other level, that's fine, too.

We're not "bound to a burden of sin" we are free to sin or not to sin, it's "free will." We are free to love or not to love. Whether we ask for forgiveness or not, we already know everything we do is already known & it is known with understanding, not with condemnation. That's the whole point of Jesus, to set us all free. He was sent to represent [to become the human form of] unconditional love. All of the chains, burdens, the yokes around our necks, the yokes we tie to each other, none of that is about God or Jesus. People who do not really know the Bible believe it's all rules, regulations, punishments, etc... when it's really a book of love & guidance. But just as you can't know what light is unless you've experienced darkness, there is much contrast in the Bible to make significant points to us. And through contrast in life as well, that's how you know what you enjoy, love, want, and desire. If you never knew desire, you couldn't know what desire fulfilled felt like. What's so ironic about your complete distaste for "religion" is your actual limited scope of understanding it while really believing you understand it completely. I've lived life long enough to know you will experience the contradiction of your own beliefs and it will have nothing to do with me or anything I've typed here, or anything on MS. Life is contradiction, the Bible is not, it is our guide out of contradictions. It doesn't bound one's heart to doctrines, it frees us from that.

That's why every prisoner is sent to his cell with a Bible. Bibles are the one item a prisoner can have even if under severe solitary confinement. Because even though the person is physically locked up, no longer free to roam, commit crimes, etc., they can find freedom in the words of that book, and they can then endure incarceration, even solitary incarceration.

My mother uses your same argument that women are subservient in the Bible to explain her own distaste of anything having to do with Scripture. You said it depicts women as "the helper" to men, but it does not. That is not true. I'm a feminist, I'm for all equality of every kind. And I have not been offended by anything said, in context, in the Bible. It clearly states one gender is not of more importance than the other, all throughout it. People typically take scripture out of context and apply different meanings to it than the writer intended. That's kind of the role of a pastor, someone who's studied it so intensely, completely in context, that they can relay the meanings of the words as they were intended, not for evil or to justify anything horrid. They can, and do, sometimes miss the mark. Others have such a gift of discernment that they rarely distort the meanings.

Consider the Apostle Paul’s teachings: “Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord” (Ephesians 5:22). A husband with a tendency to look down on women as subservient might use this passage as an excuse for continuing to put himself first. But such a man would be completely missing the point of the passage. Paul said that [I]everyone[/I] should be submissive, not just wives as proven by the verse just before it which states “Submit yourselves [I]one to another[/I] in the fear of God” (Ephesians 5:21), that is, wives submit to husbands and husbands submit to wives. The Christian way is through humility. We're all in this, equally, together. We're described as "one body" with different parts, all of which are important and dependent on the other.

The Bible states that neither man nor woman has a special advantage. Christ does not choose men in preference to women or relate to men more directly. “There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: For you are all one in Christ Jesus” (Galatians 4:28). It is true that women are dependent upon men, but it is equally true that men are dependent upon women. [I]“Neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord” [/I](1 Corinthians 11:11). They are “[I]heirs together to the grace of life” [/I](1 Peter 3:7). “[I]God created man in His own image…male and female” [/I](Genesis 1:27, 5:1-2). Both of them together are the equal likeness of God.

May you rest freely in "great secularism." Our country is free and none of it has come about without spirituality and moral compass. I hope we can still be friends. I hold nothing against you.

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Yes "shivers." :lol:, I combined "shuttering at the word" with "shivers down my spine" to really drive my point home :lol:. Kiwi you've gotten me interested in reading the Bible, perhaps for the first time in my life. Having grown up hearing passages read by old men and women in Sunday school, it just never really sounded very interesting, perhaps because I was more focused on kid stuff. But the truth is, as you've pointed out, there is so much wisdom in the Bible.

While on vacation recently in NC my parents really wanted my wife and I and son to go to church with them at this old church built in the 1800's that they attend. It was the first time I had ever heard a female pastor deliver a sermon, in my life. She was Duke educated and a really strong communicator. It was a presbyterian church. One thing I liked was the openness and congregation participation. Sitting there and just listening sometimes, especially to one person can get old fast for me, unless they are really engaging. That's probably partially due to my dad being a professional speaker and me being an actor :lol:. Anyway, /tangeant.

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^^ Cool!! You just never know where inspiration comes from next.... a woman pastor in an 1800s built Presbyterian Church, or maybe a Kiwi shows you something you hadn't seen before, well ok then, great!! It's all good! Lots of gender equality throughout the Bible, absolutely, and lots and lots of freedom from all forms of oppression, even those that exist only in our minds.

Education + strong communication skills + openness = great combination to me as well. Add awesome music and I'd probably love that church too!

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[QUOTE=KiwiTollway;1129012]You just never know where inspiration comes from next.... [/QUOTE]

that's a quote from a short film I did actually... the other part being "it strikes when it wants to."

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weird coincidence.... no such thing!! :roflmao: wish it struck more often though! :Bounce:

maybe it's everywhere, we just have to see it?

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In your first appearances Kiwi, I use to think you were an alias of Florida. Using the same smileys, only responding to his posts, liking the same artists, and all of this at at time when he was getting bombarded for ordering a table in a night club. But only our creator knows. He knows everything from your sick perverted thoughts, to commanding your illiterate methods of cognitive dissonance.

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Wholly shit son, are you paranoid or what? :roflmao:

And to respond to your troll comment, my friend from New York who moved to Tampa wanted to get a table for his birthday and invited me. That's a far cry from me ordering a table at a nightclub. :what

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My response to your propositions are as follows:

[I]After all I've revealed to you about my own experiences, and you have revealed nothing & answered no questions I posed to you, that you can call what I've written "feel good traditions" is beyond me. [/I]

I completely understand your experience. At a time in your weakest affirmations you found God. Now you seek no other, as this has been completely reaffirming, that anything you do, believe, connote you just have to pray and everything will be alright. Furthermore, from our ancestral homo sapiens development of communal recognition and patterns of sharing experiences to explain a phenomenon, similarly within a church or place of worship I don’t believe much development has incurred from our ancestors to now.

To your oblique on ‘revealing’ and answering questions, where I believe you stated the following: [I]Let me ask you .... Is your father still living? How about your mother? Have you ever reached the end of yourself at anytime in your life yet? If you haven't, I believe you will at some point (maybe, maybe not). Have you ever had something happened that literally knocked you down it was so shocking, jolting, upsetting? Or has life been relatively smooth and easy for you thus far? I'm just curious. If anything ever really jolting happens to you, something that fills you with angst and unanswered questions, maybe you'll be inclined to contact Kiwi? I'd like that.[/I]

I am in an utter interrogation as much to a methadone addict who has had his hit and now imagining spiders crawling out his body, on what actually are you trying to emphasise nor question here? The topic of this thread was my rebuttal on the mediocrity if not foolishness of religion bringing much barriers if not cognitive failures to our societal development. I will not personally answer any of those questions as they are blatantly out of topic, and I believe unworthy of discussion in a public forum. If it is some form of spiritual connection that you aim to reason with my failures I am certain if not, I may undoubtedly correct this with either philosophical or psychological meaning.

Furthermore, I still await my initial questions that I had asked on your scientific education, qualifications, and a clear answer on your reasoning behind statistics?

[I]ALL purchased with currency that reads[/I] "[I]In God We Trust[/I]"

This motto was only adopted on paper notes 1956, however adopted on coins from 1861. There is actually a good background to this phrase, which again reclaims my affirmation on secularism. The phrase used as a battle cry in the Civil War by unionists to believe that God was on their side ([URL]http://www.treasury.gov/about/education/Pages/in-god-we-trust.aspx[/URL]). Albeit, the case was brought forward by Reverend. M.R. Watkinson, it can be further depicted on the constitution that should have forbid government passing any law irrespective of religion. There was even a case (432 F. 2d 242 - Aronow v. United States) on the usage of this motto, where its findings found that:

9. It is quite obvious that the national motto and the slogan on coinage and currency "In God We Trust" has nothing whatsoever to do with the establishment of religion. Its use is of a patriotic or ceremonial character and bears no true resemblance to a governmental sponsorship of a religious exercise.

Moreover, in:

12. While "ceremonial" and "patriotic" may not be particularly apt words to describe the category of the national motto, it is excluded from First Amendment significance because the motto has no theological or ritualistic impact

13. "Currency has been issued by the United States Government since 1861. Thus, for almost a century, there has been no inscription on our currency reflecting the spiritual basis of our way of life." Senate Report No. 637, 1955 Cong. & Admin. News, p. 2417 ([URL]http://openjurist.org/432/f2d/242/aronow-v-united-states[/URL])

Thus concluding that this is a mere war cry/motto than having any religious significance to its value. Additionally, proclamation of Jesus Christ when he was at the local markets placed conveniently in front of churches, walking around tipping over tables because he hated the sight of money in front of churches? Theodore Roosevelt found this offensive, some form of sacrilegious he pledged, didn’t really get too far.

[I]This country was fathered/founded in prayer and Christianity with the law that all are free to believe what they want to believe. This country's pledge states "[/I]...[I]One nation under God, indivisible with liberty and justice for all..[/I]."

Again refer to 432 F. 2d 242 - Aronow v. United States, District Judge Thompson noted:

12. "There is of course nothing in the decision reached here that is inconsistent with the fact that school children and others are officially encouraged to express love for our country by reciting historical documents such as the Declaration of Independence which contain references to the Deity or by singing officially espoused anthems which include the composer's professions of faith in a Supreme Being, or with the fact that there are many manifestations in our public life of belief in God. Such patriotic or ceremonial occasions bear no true resemblance to the unquestioned religious exercise that the State of New York has sponsored in this instance."

So comprehensive was this case even the Jehovah’s Witness argued why Americans were worshiping the flag as opposed to the God? I believe the first case was Minersville School District v. Board of Education (No. 690). I see why this is not a legitimate case of perpetrating Christian beliefs of idol worshipping?

And your point on America being founded on Prayer and Christianity is absolute drivel. Obviously I am going to refer to Article 11 or the Treaty of Tripoli, where President John Adams stated that:

As the Government of the United States...is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion--as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility of Mussel- men--and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

From the article Allen B. Our Godless Constitution. [I]Nation[/I] [serial online]. February 21, 2005;280(7):14-20. Available from: International Security & Counter Terrorism Reference Center, Ipswich, MA. Accessed June 7, 2014. (I usually rely upon peer-reviewed journals, as opposed to further drivel from the internet):

If we define a Christian as a person who believes in the divinity of Jesus Christ, then it is safe to say that some of the key Founding Fathers were not Christians at all. Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and Tom Paine were deists--that is, they believed in one Supreme Being but rejected revelation and all the supernatural elements of the Christian Church; the word of the Creator, they believed, could best be read in Nature. John Adams was a professed liberal Unitarian, but he, too, in his private correspondence seems more deist than Christian.

George Washington and James Madison also leaned toward deism, although neither took much interest in religious matters. Madison believed that "religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize." He spoke of the "almost fifteen centuries" during which Christianity had been on trial: "What have been its fruits? More or less in all places, pride and indolence in the Clergy, ignorance and servility in the laity, in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution." If Washington mentioned the Almighty in a public address, as he occasionally did, he was careful to refer to Him not as "God" but with some nondenominational moniker like "Great Author" or "Almighty Being." It is interesting to note that the Father of our Country spoke no words of a religious nature on his deathbed, although fully aware that he was dying, and did not ask for a man of God to be present; his last act was to take his own pulse, the consummate gesture of a creature of the age of scientific rationalism

[I]I have no idea what that currency is based off or their foundations. Again, I apologize for my lack of education on those matters.[/I]

‘I thank God’ that we have no religious mottos on our currency. I’m sure Jesus would be proud, as he hates money being related to churches.

[I]I can only relay to you from the person I am today trying to explain Christian beliefs, which does not mean I'm on a fence. I am not. I'm also not trying to cram anything down your throat because I, myself, hate that and have been on the receiving end of that in my life from well-meaning Christians. No human being is perfect. But I don't hold what some do against the whole lot of them, not even Catholics, although I've had some very bad experiences with that form of organized religion as many people have as well in our society.[/I]

I exclaimed on your previous disarray priori to finding God, I believe it was your mid 20’s where you found a spiritual connection – where prior to this a fence sitter as I like to call those agnostic types? And questioning my past on family, weak points in my life, recommending a need for a deity are typical psychological traits of persuasion. Usually administered by cult leaders, fundamental religious beliefs, and even financial advisors. One can only brace the mouth opened further to this.

[I]But, it takes practice to control one's thoughts and no one teaches this to their children (how to do it) so we're conditioned to believe what we think even when our thoughts have no basis in truth. No sees things completely clearly through their thoughts, we can only know what we see/experience without knowing/seeing the bigger picture involved. [/I]

So all the children in this world who attends a public school, parented by atheists are undoubted raping, torturous, stealing, and cunning betided minded human beings. I believe I find Dr. Seuss series more signifying in proclaiming morality, ethical reasoning, and capabilities for human development as opposed to the bible.

[I]Much agony begins with our minds, because our thoughts are constantly running, if we don't take control of them, they run rampant with our egos like wild horses, & that causes us trouble. We don't think with our hearts, as quoted, we think with our minds.... but our minds are playgrounds. The quotes you mentioned remind me of this - conscious thought running a muck. [/I]

You nor anyone’s religious experience of “I suddenly realise the universe is all about me.” As cleverly depicted by Daniel Dennett, can bear a true resonance to your phrasing. No one needs mind control by transcended means to live happy and prosperous life in sustenance of oneself and others around us. This has been going on for millions of years, I apologise the Bible only claims 6000 of this.

[I]That's why every prisoner is sent to his cell with a Bible. Bibles are the one item a prisoner can have even if under severe solitary confinement. Because even though the person is physically locked up, no longer free to roam, commit crimes, etc., they can find freedom in the words of that book, and they can then endure incarceration, even solitary incarceration.[/I]

It’s a book for the fainthearted by the fainthearted. I can only assume that most felons may seem anything beyond their abilities dwelling into philosophy may be too difficult to comprehend. However, the library within most prison institutions may hold more of an answer rather than being in confinement.

And your views of women being treated ‘equally’ in the bible, in rebuttal I offer you these lovely transfigurations to ponder and further explain:

"When men strive together one with another, and the wife of the one draweth near for to deliver her husband out of the hand of him that smiteth him, and putteth forth her hand, and taketh him by the secrets: then thou shalt cut off her hand, thine eye shall not pity her." (Deuteronomy 25:11-12)

"Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a woman have conceived seed, and born a man child: then she shall be unclean seven days; according to the days of the separation for her infirmity shall she be unclean." (Leviticus 12:2)

In addition, as a feminist Elizabeth Cady Stanton the leading lady of the women’s rights movements in America had once said: [I]“The Bible and the church have been the greatest stumbling blocks in the way of woman's emancipation.”[/I]

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." (I Corinthians 11:3)

"For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man." (I Corinthians 11:8-9)

I rest my case on the bible.

[I]May you rest freely in "great secularism." Our country is free and none of it has come about without spirituality and moral compass. [/I]

Useless line, and in conclusion to this rebuttal I pose you the same in defence as once venerated by Thomas Jefferson:

“Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State.”

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1129152]Wholly shit son, are you paranoid or what? :roflmao:

And to respond to your troll comment, my friend from New York who moved to Tampa wanted to get a table for his birthday and invited me. That's a far cry from me ordering a table at a nightclub. :what[/QUOTE]

If you read that thread, I actually supported your stance. An no it was not a 'troll' comment, a mere analysis of human behaviour asnd psyche of relations in traits of behaviours.

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In layman's terms that is, I mean... are you kind of understand the contradiction if not confusion that religion initiates? Again I'm not here to prove you wrong, but from much reading, understanding, and discussion in relation to all of this I just simply fail to comprehend confusion, delusions, and bluntly obvious contradiction. I appreciate both of your reasoning that believing in religion transfigures your lives, I appreciate that. However, in my case I had been exposed to too much philosophy, psychology, and the scientific principles of demanding evidence in addition to thinking critically, has all but alluded my views of religion.

The reasoning behind its barriers of advancement and peace as I had mentioned previously, is what discourages my participation nor association to a mere phenomenon.

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ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh Got it! You're a lawyer, law student or paralegal, 30-something, raised in an atheist's home, have both your parents living as well as anyone you really care about, and have never been critically ill a day in your life, probably never seen anyone die before. No more explanations and long dissertations needed! The secret, non-physical aspects of this world have not yet been revealed to you.

I rest my case and throw my humanness [and all of its God-designed perfect flaws] on the mercy of your justifying mind & critical thinking COURT. I have made a conscious choice not to put any personal, specific details about my life on this forum. It is in no way a method of dodging your questions. What do my science degrees have to do with this discussion? Who even cares?

I had no spiritual awakening/experience in my 20s. I said I was pursued all through my 20s, the example I gave was when I was 21. Another instance of how you turn what I write around completely distorting the meaning of it with obscure conclusions you conjure. That you continue to misrepresent what I write is what's turning me off to this discussion.

As much as you find my beliefs to be delusions, I find your opinions about something you know little about (despite your constant siting of opinions from humans who correspond with your own beliefs), which you consider more real, equally absurd & contradictory. Just because you don't believe doesn't make God any less alive & real and ALL around you illuminating all goodness & beauty that exists.

Thomas Jefferson and our other founding fathers wanted this country to contain inhabitants free to believe whatever they choose, that in no way discounts Christianity, in fact, it corresponds quite nicely to Christian beliefs that we are all free to choose and that there be a wall of separation between church and state so that it's inhabitants are, indeed, free. That doesn't make those who believe to be fools as you believe we are. In fact, just the opposite. Free will is celebrated all throughout the Bible. The separation of church and state is critically important to the Christian citizen and the secular citizen, so? How does that dispute Christianity? It doesn't. It's unfortunate you still view Christian beliefs as confining when they are, in fact, freeing. But, so be it, that's your choice in not understanding the book itself.

Every year scientists discover physical, scientific evidence of various accounts of facts in the Bible, including those long thought to be absurd. Just like human beings once thought the earth was flat.

With all my humble effort, I can see nothing I offer would be good enough for your consideration as even remotely valid, so it's all just aggravation now. My desire for participation has been extinguished. You can't even concede that "In God We Trust" printed on every dollar bill (i.e., trusting in a deity called God) is religion inside every purchase you ever make and that our country was founded on Christian beliefs of freedom to choose, which is just blatant denial of the most obvious. Also, every single day in your life (if you've ever validated your days are numbered by a calender or celebrated your own birthday like the rest of us) began with the death of Christ (this is year 2014 A.D.= After Death of Jesus Christ) and has been counted that way ever since for over 2,000 years for good reason! How many generations of "fools" do you think really exist that these beliefs continue to be perpetuated and you really believe they're ALL wrong and you're obscure/random beliefs are valid... it's an educated ego at its finest! There is no confusion, no "phenomenon" about days of the year, money, the court systems, the freedom that exists in America, the millions of churches and billions of believers in the world, but you're convinced your views are correct and ours are all wrong despite "God" being acknowledged all around you? I mean, how much further can denial go? I'm not interested in knowing. But, I'm really done now.

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[QUOTE=Illuminate;1129149]In your first appearances Kiwi, I use to think you were an alias of Florida. Using the same smileys, only responding to his posts, liking the same artists, and all of this at at time when he was getting bombarded for ordering a table in a night club. But only our creator knows. He knows everything from your sick perverted thoughts, to commanding your illiterate methods of cognitive dissonance.[/QUOTE]

And this is just rude & uncalled for -----clearly evidence something I've written has stuck a serious chord with you because now you're resorting to insults. Cool! A bit immature for your intelligence I once found attracting. Oh well. All things must end.........

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Interesting and thought provoking thread....

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[QUOTE=floridaorange;1129152]Wholly shit son, [/QUOTE]

Pun intended or not? Either way, very funny

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^(intended)

At the very end of the day, our planet and all of it's intricacies, how it spins on it's axis, it's proximity to the sun, and the many many other amazingly intricate examples in nature could be compared to a rolex watch, to the extent that the way it works as clearly designed by something intelligent, not just random. If I were walking through the desert (universe) and found a swiss watch on the ground among rocks and sand I would make the assumption that it was put there by something, especially upon admiring all of its incredible detail, craftsmanship, etc. The earth is a lot like that rolex, and the galaxy of stars and planets, etc is a lot like that desert.

Here's an interesting article from the Guardian about "Chaos Theory and Divine Action."

[url="http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2010/jul/14/chaos-theory-polkinghorne-god"]Chaos theory and divine action | Mark Vernon | Comment is free | theguardian.com [/url]

[COLOR=#d3d3d3][QUOTE][FONT=arial]t's with that recognition that there is a possibility of giving an account of divine action within nature, which is compatible with science. It relies neither upon a God who intervenes outside the usual play of nature, nor seeks low-level causal gaps. Rather, God's action could be viewed as analogous to top-down, emergent causation – particularly when it implies signs of purpose or intentionality.[/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=#333333][FONT=arial][COLOR=#d3d3d3]An obvious – though obviously contentious example – could be the relationship between mind and the neural components of the brain. To put it simply, if neurons affect our consciousness from the bottom-up, mind might be said to do so from the top-down. That'd be one way of understanding human agency. Divine agency could be described by analogical extension.[/COLOR][/FONT][/COLOR] [COLOR=#d3d3d3][FONT=arial]Whether or not you buy that will depend much on your prior metaphysical assumptions. We all have them. But be they theistic or otherwise, there is a general conclusion that can be posited about science: from the point of view of mathematical description, what chaos theory and reductionism more broadly demonstrate is that most of nature is scientifically underdetermined – which is to say that scientific explanations are limited. Further, it's not an epistemological gap that's being appealed to in John Polkinghorne's work, but rather an ontological causal openness. Hence the possibility, at least, of making the link with divine action.[/FONT][/QUOTE] [/COLOR]

I won't pretend to know all the answers Illuminate, that's not what this thread is about for me. I am just saying, I have a tough time assuming we humans and our beautiful planet are not one giant accident. I enjoy this specific church because it contains people from all over the world who appreciate the freedom to gather and connect on a spiritual level. The religion part can go f*ck itself quite frankly. [IMG]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/images/icons/icon6.png[/IMG]

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[QUOTE=Illuminate;1127602] Actually, what benefit can one attain, vice-versa by sharing spiritual experiences? Apologies for dwelling into the psychology of this question, but a former study by William James (1901), a leading philosopher, analysed on this reasoning by conveying his study on the science of Religion ([URL]http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/wjames/varieties-rel-exp.pdf[/URL])

Titled [I]The Varieties of Religious Experience[/I] he had found that "[I]Men’s religions need not be identical - is religion a “survival”of primitive thought[/I]?"

I don't have a problem with anyone practising religion, as I had mentioned above, but I may hold discourse on the enforcement of its value having no significant reasoning of its purpose to the evolvement of the individual.[/QUOTE]

One day when you have a wife and kid(s) you may re-think this. I have also found churches to be help combat extreme loneliness, which I have experienced in my past when I lived by myself in a part of the country that was 2,000 miles from all I knew. Church helped. There aren't that many environments where men and women gather humbly to collectively praise a power greater than themselves. In such a setting problems actually can be solved, on deep personal levels. Connections can be made on a level higher than the human level. It can be rather special. Also intimidating, because church and God do surpass our understanding as humans, we can hardly grasp infinity or other concepts associated with God, especially the highly intelligent earth dwellers. They tend to have the toughest time with it. Also people who like to pretend to be in charge of everything, like one of my Uncles :lol:.

At any rate, I'm reading [URL="http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/wjames/varieties-rel-exp.pdf"]this[/URL] article again now that I have time, thanks for posting it.

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[QUOTE=audrey_w;1129179]Pun intended or not? Either way, very funny[/QUOTE]

Taking the Lord's name in vain?

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Well I'm not perfect :lol:

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If I can get to your responses in chronological order, commencing at Kiwi's post.

[I]You're a lawyer, law student or paralegal,[/I] - Nope [I]30-something[/I], - Nope [I]Raised in an atheist's home[/I], - Yes, to an extent. [I]have both your parents living[/I] - Nope [I]as well as anyone you really care about[/I], - Nope [I]and have never been critically ill a day in your life,[/I] - Nope, came close to losing all my fingers on my right hand once.
[I]probably never seen anyone die before[/I]. – Nope, I’ve witnessed first-hand a human being getting shot. Do you know what it is like to see someone lose their life in a matter of one second?

If you really want to find out my biography – a point of reference could be here: ([url="http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?20260-Where-is-everybody-from-%28New%29-Member-sign-in-sheet&p=1123249#post1123249"]Where is everybody from / (New) Member sign-in sheet - Page 38[/url])

[I]The secret, non-physical aspects of this world have not yet been revealed to you[/I]. – They have in a way, and I have somehow managed to find a probable reasonable explanation for it. Mainly thanks to Sigmund Freud

[I]What do my science degrees have to do with this discussion? Who even cares?[/I] Two reasons:

[LIST=1] []It is a rarity for scientists to believe in a form of religion, there was that statistic at only 7% of leading scientists in America believing in a form of religion. I found this really interesting in your case, and wanted to know what sciences you had a history in, and probably would have dwelled more into finding correlations in scientific practises and religious beliefs. []If you had any probable qualifications to explain on your statistic dilemmas. Still trying to figure this out myself on the statistics side of things. [/LIST] [I] Another instance of how you turn what I write around completely distorting the meaning of it with obscure conclusions you conjure. That you continue to misrepresent what I write is what's turning me off to this discussion[/I]

Isn’t this the whole problem of interpreting conjunctive information nor individual reflections? I do apologise if I had misinterpreted your explanations, by no means have I had intention to wordsmith nor change things, but I personally have difficulties understanding personal religious recounts, as I had mentioned previously fail to comprehend.

[I]As much as you find my beliefs to be delusions, I find your opinions about something you know little about (despite your constant siting of opinions from humans who correspond with your own beliefs), which you consider more real, equally absurd & contradictory. Just because you don't believe doesn't make God any less alive & real and ALL around you illuminating all goodness & beauty that exists.[/I]

It is not something I know little about, it is something I choose to know nothing about. I can only cite on precedence of evidence, knowledge, in a personal way it makes sense for me. Please feel free to post my responses and contradict it with a religious brief, such as a pastor’s interpretation, or other biblical phrases. One cannot interpret enough. How exactly does the points I raise [I]equally absurd & contradictory, [/I]if you can point out any of the mentioned, I will be happy to research further and hopefully clear any absurdness or contradictions. And again, I honour your religious practises, I’m glad you find happiness amongst this, but unfortunately I don’t – this does not mean God does not exist to you. You choose the path you have created I cannot pertain you from choosing that, however, I personally would like ‘further information’ before I may forego into the path. Your tone in the last sentence almost sounds as if I had completely threatened the facet of your ‘God.’ I hope I have not offended this, I know I have broken a few commandments in the process of providing my rebuttal, but by no way should this by any means threaten your devotion if not capitulation to the heavenly being.

[I]Thomas Jefferson and our other founding fathers wanted this country to contain inhabitants free to believe whatever they choose, that in no way discounts Christianity, in fact, it corresponds quite nicely to Christian beliefs that we are all free to choose and that there be a wall of separation between church and state so that it's inhabitants are, indeed, free.[/I]

You raised a point that America was founded on [I]Prayer and Christianity[/I], I can only point out on evidence where this is not true, similarly to the fact of “In God we Trust.” To the point of corresponding to Christianity, you had mentioned that Christianity was not a salad bar, so how does this correlation be provocative in its sense of freedom to choose? The separation I believe in, however at times religion as a whole does try to break down this wall – this I find amusing if not profanely senseless.

[I]Free will is celebrated all throughout the Bible. The separation of church and state is critically important to the Christian citizen and the secular citizen, so? How does that dispute Christianity? It doesn't. It's unfortunate you still view Christian beliefs as confining when they are, in fact, freeing. But, so be it, that's your choice in not understanding the book itself.[/I]

In Luke 19:27 Jesus mentioned a parable, that read: “But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me.” I see the bible as entire debate of which religion is more promising to God, and the eternal struggles to reign supreme. Take the Dome of the Rock for example.

[I]Every year scientists discover physical, scientific evidence of various accounts of facts in the Bible, including those long thought to be absurd. Just like human beings once thought the earth was flat. [/I]

And this is where we reside our opinions. There has not been any probable account to validate the key reoccurring’s of the bible. Finding locations is nothing ground breaking, and yes the bible is a collection of writings, journals and not immediate recounts. The New Testament itself was noted to be written at least twenty years after Jesus’ death.

[I]You can't even concede that "In God We Trust" printed on every dollar bill (i.e., trusting in a deity called God) is religion inside every purchase you ever make and that our country was founded on Christian beliefs of freedom to choose, which is just blatant denial of the most obvious. [/I]

Did I not clarify on this matter? I thought I had abbreviated clearly on your interpretation of this, whereas, I had referred to cases in precedence, and original recounts of the founding fathers i.e. the Treaty of Tripoli. If your faith is compelled by this connotation, then I am regretful to say that I cannot take your claim as reality.

[I]Also, every single day in your life (if you've ever validated your days are numbered by a calender or celebrated your own birthday like the rest of us) began with the death of Christ (this is year 2014 A.D.= After Death of Jesus Christ) and has been counted that way ever since for over 2,000 years for good reason![/I]

Again, if a monk had formulated a calendar based on his faith (Dionysius Exiguus) and reaffirmed by Pope Gregory XIII of its modern adaptation in Europe and soon the world, I cannot claim that this is the signification on the evidence of Jesus. There is the C.E – B.C.E debate to overturn the A.D/B.C phrasing, but I don’t believe no one really takes this far enough to consider its validity, moreover, I am positive the catholic church may hold subject to that.

[I]There is no confusion, no "phenomenon" about days of the year[/I], There is an ongoing argument of the adaptation of the Georgian calendar, from the Julian calendar. I believe there has been some confusion on the exact dating methodologies between Exiguss’ convergences of adopting the Easter table. Moreover, there is the debate of when Jesus was actually born. And why does the orthodox church hold a different adaptation to the calendar?

[I]money,[/I] No point repeating from end on this.

[I]the court systems, [/I] I don’t understand this argument?

[I]the freedom that exists in America, [/I] Sure, there is freedom in religion, and most first world countries had adopted this. Again, I don’t fully understand your argument here.

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[I]At the very end of the day, our planet and all of it's intricacies, how it spins on it's axis, it's proximity to the sun, and the many many other amazingly intricate examples in nature could be compared to a rolex watch, to the extent that the way it works as clearly designed by something intelligent, not just random. If I were walking through the desert (universe) and found a swiss watch on the ground among rocks and sand I would make the assumption that it was put there by something, especially upon admiring all of its incredible detail, craftsmanship, etc. The earth is a lot like that rolex, and the galaxy of stars and planets, etc is a lot like that desert. [/I] I believe you are trying to explain the fine tune argument here, and not provoking the design argument in its clearest form. The Fine-tuning argument takes the existence of life as evidence that an agent had a hand in making the universe. The argument is thought to hinge on the claim that ‘fine-tuning’ of various parameters is required for life to evolve. Who/What was this causation/agent for the development of the universe is a common theological question. Even Stephen Hawking remarked “And why is the universe so close to the dividing line between collapsing again and expanding indefinitely?...If the rate of expansion one second after the Big Bang had been less by one part in 10[SUP]10[/SUP], the universe would have collapsed after a few million years. If it had been greater by one part in 10[SUP]10[/SUP], the universe would have been essentially empty after a few million years. In either case would it have lasted long enough for life to develop? But amidst its origins there has been many studies concluding that the argument does not really propagate a creator if not adjuster of the universe, I have personally loved the way an article written by Christopher Sirola (Asoc. Prof. of Physics and Astronomy at University of Southern Mississippi) defined the way we may view fine tuning with relation to your points of Earth (Rough-Tuned Universe, Sirola, Christopher. Skeptic, 16.4 (2011): 50-52,64.):

[I]Consider the following: we humans, the only intelligent species on our planet with an advanced technology, must fulfill a number of requirements to sustain our existence. We are land-based creatures who must live in locations where the temperature is neither too hot nor too cold, where the air is thick enough to breathe, where fresh liquid water is readily available, and so on. [/I]

[I]A quick glance at any Earth globe reveals an obvious fact - about three-quarters of the Earth's surface is covered by salt water. Humans cannot live in the oceans. Yes, we can build ships to carry us, but what is a ship if not an artificial piece of dry land? Nor are we able to build artificial islands to host more than but a tiny fraction of us - and then again, we are merely recreating land, not living in the sea proper. [/I]

[I]Further investigation reveals significant portions of the Earth's land are also uninhabitable - places where the temperatures are too cold (at the poles), the air is too thin (mountains), or the ground is too dry (deserts). In reality, only about 10% of the Earth's surface is readily amenable to human habitation. Design proponents proclaim how wonderfully attuned the Earth is for life using factoids such as its distance from the Sun, the rate of the Earth's rotation, or the tilt of the Earth's axis, but they always seem to skip considerations such as those above. [/I]

[I]Further, moving out into space we note that Earth is the only known habitat for life in our solar system, that the space between objects in the solar system is barren vacuum quite inhospitable to life, that the solar system is but one of hundreds of billions in our galaxy, that our galaxy is but one among tens of billions of galaxies in the known universe, and that when one considers the long view the cosmos is quite hostile to complex life such as ourselves, Thus, design proponents should not be allowed to defend the "fine tuning" of the universe with such impunity. [/I]

[I]Of course, I realize that defenders of design will point to the fantastically precise values of various fundamental constants of nature that make even atoms and molecules possible, without which there could be no life of any kind. To answer this claim we must consider what is meant by a "constant" of nature. A "constant," in physics and astronomy, is a number whose value is set. Readers will likely be most familiar with the mathematical constant Tt (pi), the ratio of a circle's circumference to its diameter and whose approximate value is familiarly given as 3.14. Another example is the speed of light, made famous by Einstein, with a value of approximately three hundred million meters per second. Other important constants include, but are by no means limited to, the mass of a proton, the universal gravitational constant, and Planck's constant (basic to quantum mechanics). [/I]

[I]As it turns out, the design defenders are both ahead of (sort of) and behind the science. First, they leap ahead of current physics in the sense of assuming that their favorite constants are truly fundamental - they appear to believe that these numbers are set in stone, that they are inalterable, and that they are independent of each other. [/I]

[I]No physicist would argue that any constant of nature is fundamental in this restricted sense. It is true that modern metrology (the science of measurement) has elucidated wonderfully precise values for physical constants - for instance, the speed of light is known so well that physicists have decided to define other units of measurement from the speed of light, rather than further refine the value of the speed of light in terms of other units. But that doesn't automatically imply the speed of light is fundamental. In fact, one of the great results in the history of science was the determination by James Clerk Maxwell that the speed of light is the combination of two other constants, one electrical, one magnetic.11 The speed of light, therefore, isn't independent after all. Which of these three numbers, therefore, is fundamental? [/I]

In addition, to periodical jurisdictions, I must refer back to Hawking in a simple summary within this newspaper article:

[I]Many people would like us to use these coincidences as evidence of the work of God. The idea that the universe was designed to accommodate mankind appears in theologies and mythologies dating from thousands of years ago. In Western culture the Old Testament contains the idea of providential design, but the traditional Christian viewpoint was also greatly influenced by Aristotle, who believed "in an intelligent natural world that functions according to some deliberate design." [/I]

[I]That is not the answer of modern science. As recent advances in cosmology suggest, the laws of gravity and quantum theory allow universes to appear spontaneously from nothing. Spontaneous creation is the reason there is something rather than nothing, why the universe exists, why we exist. It is not necessary to invoke God to light the blue touch paper and set the universe going.[/I]

[I]Our universe seems to be one of many, each with different laws. That multiverse idea is not a notion invented to account for the miracle of fine tuning. It is a consequence predicted by many theories in modern cosmology. If it is true it reduces the strong anthropic principle to the weak one, putting the fine tunings of physical law on the same footing as the environmental factors, for it means that our cosmic habitat—now the entire observable universe—is just one of many. [/I] [I]Each universe has many possible histories and many possible states. Only a very few would allow creatures like us to exist. Although we are puny and insignificant on the scale of the cosmos, this makes us in a sense the lords of creation. [/I]

[URL]http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052748704206804575467921609024244[/URL]

[I]I enjoy this specific church because it contains people from all over the world who appreciate the freedom to gather and connect on a spiritual level. The religion part can go f*ck itself quite frankly.[/I]

You go to church, believe in God, Jesus, and fundamental moral and ethical beliefs of Christianity, probable to causation of sins and bearing forgiveness, and you conclude on the point that religion should go fuck itself? But… isn’t everything you believe a form of religion? I can assume this from the last time I checked on the definition of Religion.

[I]One day when you have a wife and kid(s) you may re-think this. [/I]

Sure, the contradictions of religion prolonging free thought and personal individual critical development.

[I]At any rate, I'm reading [URL="http://www2.hn.psu.edu/faculty/jmanis/wjames/varieties-rel-exp.pdf"]this[/URL] article again now that I have time, thanks for posting it.[/I]

This is just one of many, let me know if you had found this of interest. I would also suggest this:

[IMG]http://people.ict.usc.edu/~lane/jshs/whywebelieve.jpg[/IMG]