specifically regarding the Jeep / automotive industry.

[URL]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zax-iuCXcWQ[/URL]

[URL]http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/01/opinion/mitt-romney-versus-the-automakers.html?_r=1&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1351796722-7k/brA8tMzBSeIzREJBaLg&[/URL]

Why is there not more media attention over this? How can this really be a legitimate strategy in 2012 in a country that claims to be the leader of the free world?

Its quite shocking to my thinking. Why is CNN/BBC/ whoever not creaming him for this sort of falsehood tactics.

Hardly a noble quality for a leader IMHO ?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=Huggie Smiles;1067222] Why is there not more media attention over this? How can this really be a legitimate strategy in 2012 in a country that claims to be the leader of the free world?[/QUOTE]

The fact that there is not more media attention to this actually answers your second question. Over time, perhaps the truth gets out, but by that time, the election is over and no one will care and if it works, Romney has won Ohio. There are so few repercussions for lying in the political realm, I think the calculus is "why[I] wouldn't[/I] you just make some shit up and hope it works?" Pretty disheartening.

This actually presents a related question that I was going to post, and that is why on earth is it so hard to get objective information about the state of the race right now? I mean, I get that both campaigns want to paint their situation in the best possible light, but to read the coverage of the race, the message is either that Romney has got it locked up or Obama has it locked up. It's bananas.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=toasty;1067238]The fact that there is not more media attention to this actually answers your second question. Over time, perhaps the truth gets out, but by that time, the election is over and no one will care and if it works, Romney has won Ohio. There are so few repercussions for lying in the political realm, I think the calculus is "why[I] wouldn't[/I] you just make some shit up and hope it works?" Pretty disheartening.

This actually presents a related question that I was going to post, and that is why on earth is it so hard to get objective information about the state of the race right now? I mean, I get that both campaigns want to paint their situation in the best possible light, but to read the coverage of the race, the message is either that Romney has got it locked up or Obama has it locked up. It's bananas.[/QUOTE]

Because you trust the media to tell the truth?

C'mon, it's 2012. If you're still getting your information from major media outlets or newspapers, you're a lost cause. Lost because, if it hasn't 'clicked' yet in your mind, it probably never will.

You're not a prole; you're a pretty smart dude. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean you are not prone to making judgment errors, but .... after all that has happened over the years, you still wonder why "it's so hard to get objective information about the state of the race right now?"

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1067271]Because you trust the media to tell the truth?

C'mon, it's 2012. If you're still getting your information from major media outlets or newspapers, you're a lost cause. Lost because, if it hasn't 'clicked' yet in your mind, it probably never will.

You're not a prole; you're a pretty smart dude. I guess that doesn't necessarily mean you are not prone to making judgment errors, but .... after all that has happened over the years, you still wonder why "it's so hard to get objective information about the state of the race right now?"[/QUOTE]

I am obviously aware that looking to the media for objective information is not entirely reasonable, but I guess what I'm saying is that there seems to be a difference between this cycle and 2008 or any other cycle before it in terms of the complete lack of self-awareness from both sides. There was plenty of chest pounding in 2008, but if you looked, there were also plenty of people that would take a step out of the bubble and at least purport to give a view free from campaign spin. Most of those people seem to be gone in 2012.

Pick any random moment during this election and look a the front page on any news aggregator (is that a word?) like RCP, and the headlines look to be from two totally different races, one where Obama is poised for a landslide, and the other where Romney is poised for a landslide. It's just a theatre of the the absurd.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

Both sides seem to just care about getting power and the office more than giving a shit about making any progress. Hence why Congress' approval is at an all time low.

Good article about where it might go next: [url="http://www.salon.com/2012/10/27/frank_rich_right_will_rage_if_obama_wins/"]Frank Rich: Right will rage if Obama wins - Salon.com[/url]

IE even more extreme...

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=toasty;1067374]I am obviously aware that looking to the media for objective information is not entirely reasonable, but I guess what I'm saying is that there seems to be a difference between this cycle and 2008 or any other cycle before it in terms of the complete lack of self-awareness from both sides. There was plenty of chest pounding in 2008, but if you looked, there were also plenty of people that would take a step out of the bubble and at least purport to give a view free from campaign spin. Most of those people seem to be gone in 2012.

Pick any random moment during this election and look a the front page on any news aggregator (is that a word?) like RCP, and the headlines look to be from two totally different races, one where Obama is poised for a landslide, and the other where Romney is poised for a landslide. It's just a theatre of the the absurd.[/QUOTE]

How about no. If I find it absurd that people thinking watching the news or reading MSM reports makes them informed about current events, why would I waste time re-affirming my thoughts on the state of journalism (no such thing, anymore)?

One side is not self-aware; they're desperately trying to stay at the dinner table. The other side is drunk on self-satisfaction that what they do is called journalism even when it is not.

Politics is violence. Your team has practiced this for decades. This shouldn't surprise you in the least bit.

Only now is the other side recognizing this and, as I said, they're ready to sit at the dinner table.

I thought you would have predicted this already, but perhaps that's my mistake.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[url="http://www.thepostgame.com/features/201211/washington-redskins-world-series-presidential-election-forecast-obama-romney"]Redskins Rule Bodes Well For Mitt Romney But World Series Result Favors Barack Obama | ThePostGame[/url]

Re: The bold and repeated lying

I think the Halloween mask poll is pretty funny: [URL="http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/23/news/economy/halloween-masks-presidential-election/index.html"]Halloween mask sales predict Obama wins presidential election 60/40 - Oct. 23, 2012[/URL]

[quote] As unscientific as the methodology may be, Spirit Halloween has accurately predicted the [URL="http://money.cnn.com/news/economy/election-2012/?iid=EL"]election winner [/URL]by charting national mask sales since it started keeping track in 1996.[/quote]

:lol:

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[url="http://www.7-eleven.com/7-Election/NationalResults.aspx"]Fast, convenient. 7-Eleven®. Oh thank Heaven®. [/url]

:lol:

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Pkhdq.jpg[/IMG]

Re: The bold and repeated lying

^:roflmao:

Re: The bold and repeated lying

lol!

Re: The bold and repeated lying

:lol:

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=Huggie Smiles;1068182][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/Pkhdq.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE]

With sixteen trillion in the hole, what's another few million taxpayer dollars for a wildly successful tv show that could exist on its own.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

Using a few million dollars as a talking point on how you are going to fix government spending is a great target for comedy because of how stupid it is.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

Alright then. Let's get to something more substantive: Commiecare.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068286]Alright then. Let's get to something more substantive: Commiecare.[/QUOTE]

First read (and understand) this laymans point by point breakdown of Obamacare and feel free to explain what part(s) are Horrible and Absolutely Communist And Also Un-American.

This is probably the most detailed breakdown anywhere on the internet of the bill that doesn't require a degree to decipher.

[URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vb8vs/eli5_what_exactly_is_obamacare_and_what_did_it/c530lfx"]CaspianX2 comments on ELI5: What exactly is Obamacare and what did it change?[/URL]

Also a work in progress of EVERY single section of the bill is here: [URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vrt9x/obamacare_pointbypoint/"], Point-By-Point : explainlikeimfive[/URL]

Re: The bold and repeated lying

A work in progress, STILL learning what's in it 2 years later. What does that tell you? The very basis of the law is authoritarian, I don't care who originally envisioned the damn idea. The un-American part starts with the mandate to buy a product from a private entity, with punishment if one refuses to get said product tailored by the government. This has the effect of ending plans that people are currently on and who are satisfied (because the plan may not match what the govt.is mandating). It increases taxes on medical device companies with thin margins, thus increasing unemployment and risks leaving the MOST decrepit with even less means to ambulate and/or even survive: [URL="http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-news/2012/11/03/column-obamacares-silent-job-killer/"]Column: Obamacares silent job killer - News from USA TODAY[/URL] Other companies are in the planning stages of dumping much of their full-time workforce to trade for part-time positions so that they are not saddled with fees/penalties associated with the bill. [URL="http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/11/05/obamacare-drops-full-time-employment/"]Obamacare Drops Full-Time Employment | Via Meadia[/URL]

These are only a few of the downsides. Will you or your brethren ever admit to the shitstorm of unintended consequences that is coming to pass?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068287]First read (and understand) this laymans point by point breakdown of Obamacare and feel free to explain what part(s) are Horrible and Absolutely Communist And Also Un-American.

This is probably the most detailed breakdown anywhere on the internet of the bill that doesn't require a degree to decipher.

[URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vb8vs/eli5_what_exactly_is_obamacare_and_what_did_it/c530lfx"]CaspianX2 comments on ELI5: What exactly is Obamacare and what did it change?[/URL]

Also a work in progress of EVERY single section of the bill is here: [URL="http://www.reddit.com/r/explainlikeimfive/comments/vrt9x/obamacare_pointbypoint/"], Point-By-Point : explainlikeimfive[/URL][/QUOTE]

Either it will work perfectly, or it will not.

I'm not a betting man, but if you believe it will work perfectly, without flaws, and without any negative repercussions in the private sector, then nobody here should contest your starry-eyed optimism.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068304]A work in progress, STILL learning what's in it 2 years later. What does that tell you? The very basis of the law is authoritarian, I don't care who originally envisioned the damn idea. The un-American part starts with the mandate to buy a product from a private entity, with punishment if one refuses to get said product tailored by the government. This has the effect of ending plans that people are currently on and who are satisfied. It increases taxes on medical device companies with thin margins, thus increasing unemployment and risks leaving the MOST decrepit with even less means to ambulate and/or even survive: [URL="http://tucsoncitizen.com/usa-today-news/2012/11/03/column-obamacares-silent-job-killer/"]Column: Obamacares silent job killer - News from USA TODAY[/URL] Other companies are in the planning stages of dumping much of their full-time workforce to trade for part-time so that they are not saddled with fees/penalties associated with the bill. [URL="http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/11/05/obamacare-drops-full-time-employment/"]Obamacare Drops Full-Time Employment | Via Meadia[/URL]

Will you or your brethren ever admit to the shitstorm of unintended consequences that is coming to pass?[/QUOTE]

I say bring on the shirtstorm.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

You must not have read a single word from the first link I sent...

[quote] Question: Can't businesses just fire employees or make them work part-time to get around this requirement? Also, what about businesses with multiple locations?

Answer: Switching to part-time only won't help, as the Affordable Care Act counts the hours worked, not the number of full-time employees you have. So if your employees worked an equivalent of 50 full-time employees' hours, the requirement kicks in. Really, the only plausible way a business could reasonably utilize this strategy is if they currently operate with just over the 50-employee number, and could still operate with under 50 employees, and have no intention to expand. Also, regarding the questions about multiple locations, [URL="http://www.bakerlaw.com/alerts/special-health-care-reform-series-special-focus-on-the-employer-employee-relationship-part-i-8-15-2012/"]this[/URL] legal website analyzed the law and claims that multiple locations in one chain all count as a part of the same business (meaning employers like Wal-Mart can't get around this by being under 50 employees in one store - they'd have to be under that for the entire chain, which just ain't happening). Independently-owned franchises are different, however, as they have a separate owner and as such aren't included under the same net as the parent company. However, any individual franchise with over 50 employees will have to meet the requirement. [/quote]

We need to try at least to become informed about things before shitting on them and calling them Communist/Socialist/Marxist/Hitler etc.

Also the Supreme Court ruled that you aren't being forced to buy a product from a private entity. It is actually a tax.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068310]You must not have read a single word from the first link I sent...

We need to try at least to become informed about things before shitting on them and calling them Communist/Socialist/Marxist/Hitler etc.

Also the Supreme Court ruled that you aren't being forced to buy a product from a private entity. It is actually a tax.[/QUOTE]

A clock is right for the second time today.

Impressive. Keep up this good work.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068306] I'm not a betting man, but if you believe it will work perfectly, without flaws, and without any negative repercussions in the private sector, then nobody here should contest your starry-eyed optimism.[/QUOTE]

Who said this was going to be perfect?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

The Supreme Court is full of re-interpretative garbage (what's his face is a bonafide traitor who sold out his country). Barack said it wasn't a tax. Someone is pulling a quick one, and you've been sucked in. Your own link shows it's a bane to small business (trying to expand).

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068315]Who said this was going to be perfect?[/QUOTE]

So you're saying it's imperfect?

Please, illuminate all of us here on how this is so.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068307]I say bring on the shirtstorm.[/QUOTE] Last option remaining is to fiscally starve the beast (minus states rights asserting their sovereignty and embroiling the beast in more legal battles, as WY just did). If they ultimately fail, secession would be the next means of attack, but the state militia would need to beef up its numbers.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068318]So you're saying it's imperfect?

Please, illuminate all of us here on how this is so.[/QUOTE]

Uh, it is implemented by humans?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068316]The Supreme Court is full of re-interpretative garbage (what's his face is a bonafide traitor who sold out his country). Barack said it wasn't a tax. Someone is pulling a quick one, and you've been sucked in. Your own link shows it's a bane to small business (trying to expand).[/QUOTE]

They argued this was a tax ffs! YES! THEY DID! I'm not sure where you're getting your news (The Daily Resonator?) but you're misinformed on this one.

He may have said it was not a tax, but that's what the government argued.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068316]The Supreme Court is full of re-interpretative garbage (what's his face is a bonafide traitor who sold out his country). Barack said it wasn't a tax. Someone is pulling a quick one, and you've been sucked in. Your own link shows it's a bane to small business (trying to expand).[/QUOTE]

There wasn't any reinterpretation because the court never ruled on it, until they said it is a tax.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068320]Uh, it is implemented by humans?[/QUOTE]

But it'll be almost perfect, right? Except for the human element. Right?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068324]But it'll be almost perfect, right? Except for the human element. Right?[/QUOTE]

:Blazed: It will be as perfect as everything involving the gov't goes. Except under Romneys government because he would have had divine inspiration for everything, which of course would have made it perfect.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068321]They argued this was a tax ffs! YES! THEY DID! I'm not sure where you're getting your news (The Daily Resonator?) but you're misinformed on this one.

He may have said it was not a tax, but that's what the government argued.[/QUOTE] Soetoro publicly claimed it was not a tax, that's my only point. Of course, his legalese freaks obviously argued to the contrary in order to fuck us good.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068327]Soetoro publicly claimed it was not a tax, that's my only point. Of course, his legalese freaks obviously argued to the contrary in order to fuck us good.[/QUOTE]

Good for the president.

Do you [I]seriously[/I] expect politicians to be truthful? Aside from the "human element' of course.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=vinnie97;1068327]Soetoro publicly claimed it was not a tax, that's my only point. Of course, his legalese freaks obviously argued to the contrary in order to fuck us good.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know we had a Soetoro on the Supreme Court. :D

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=88Mariner;1068328]Good for the president.

Do you [I]seriously[/I] expect politicians to be truthful? Aside from the "human element' of course.[/QUOTE] Well, especially not this one who campaigned on no mandate but then turned around and passed this pile of piss in a purely partisan manner. I should have lowered my expectations, but I like to point out the inconsistency for those who call this a tax in order to bolster their argument of Supreme Court legitimacy (but ignore the administration's public claim that it's only a penalty). It may ultimately be a game of semantics (an art that Clinton mastered), but I'll be damned if I can ignore it.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068326]:Blazed: It will be as perfect as everything involving the gov't goes. Except under Romneys government because he would have had divine inspiration for everything, which of course would have made it perfect.[/QUOTE]

Well I'm not sure where this is coming from, but if that is not the theme of the evening for you, then perhaps the attention-whoring story arc may be a satisfactory explanation.

You religion isn't all that different than romney's mormonism. Your gods may be different, your institutions may be different, your doctrines may be different, and your mysteries may be different, but in the end, your religiosity is on par with his.

Why do you pretend otherwise?

Well, I think I already covered your 'pretending'.

As far as religion goes, I can only shake my head at the both of you.

Snark is the magic underpants of your religion. It makes its users feel good and safe and secure, but everyone else sees it and laughs at how awkward it must be.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

Why are you talking about something run by the gov't as "perfect" then? What answer were you expecting that wouldn't cause you to argue about the response?

Re: The bold and repeated lying

[QUOTE=res0nat0r;1068333]Why are you talking about something run by the gov't as "perfect" then? What answer were you expecting that wouldn't cause you to argue about the response?[/QUOTE]

You posted, based on the work of someone who has a ton of time to post threads on reddit, that everything is going to be alright. That everything is going to work.

When you buy a car, you expect it to all work properly.

One can hope.

If this is not going to work properly, then again, enlighten us as to why this may be so. I 'get' the human element component. However, it's as much a throwaway line as ending a movie with "it was all a dream."

If it is not going to work properly, tell us where to look and why that might be so.

Otherwise, readers will have to assume that you believe it is a flawless system and that, notwithstanding the 'human element', it's implementation will otherwise be perfect.

Do you believe this? Or do you believe there could be flaws beyond the human element?

[QUOTE="88Mariner;1068336"]

You posted, based on the work of someone who has a ton of time to post threads on reddit, that everything is going to be alright. That everything is going to work.

When you buy a car, you expect it to all work properly.

One can hope.

If this is not going to work properly, then again, enlighten us as to why this may be so. I 'get' the human element component. However, it's as much a throwaway line as ending a movie with "it was all a dream."

If it is not going to work properly, tell us where to look and why that might be so.

Otherwise, readers will have to assume that you believe it is a flawless system and that, notwithstanding the 'human element', it's implementation will otherwise be perfect.

Do you believe this? Or do you believe there could be flaws beyond the human element?[/QUOTE]

Lol. Comeon bruh and try and hold off on the rhetoric. I posted a link to an EXTREMELY detailed breakdown point by point, and even page by page of facts about the bill. No nonsense saying "it is all going to be perfect and we all will be healthy and free of cancer under Obamacare." Is it perfect? No im sure it isnt. Is anything run by the government perfect? No. And your point is what again exactly? Geesh.

Re: The bold and repeated lying

The verbiage of the bill itself gives the secretary such overreaching power with what must be dozens upon dozens of "The secretary shall," that we might as well be their lowly subjects. The ones who passed it are naturally immune from any side effects. What could possibly go wrong?