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Forums / Politics

The redistribution of wealth

60 durable postsStarted 2011-07-24Latest 2011-08-06
#104079Post 1 of 60

A lady I work with has seriously considered leaving her job and excepting government assistance. She's a single mom with a college education, working full time, pays for full-time daycare, pays for health insurance, pays taxes, gets no child support, has a small apartment, and after bills she barely has enough money to scrape by some months. Yet she makes [U]too[/U] much money to qualify for any type of government assistance. If she were unemployed, she could receive government assistance for free health care for her and her child, energy assistance, food stamps (which is now a debit card that the government puts around $750 a month for food and for a single mother), housing allowance or even free housing (some of the newer housing projects in NOLA are actually nice condos with a little NOLA architecture flare. In fact, these actually appeared nicer than what my wife were paying $1100 to rent each month.) With all her necessities virtually paid for by the US government, they then would give her welfare payments in the range of $800-$1200 for spending money. She would actually make out better each month than staying and holding her job and paying taxes.

Last year my mortgage broker expressed some political views to me during the purchase of our new house and during our discussion she told me story about something that recently happened to her family. Their 20 year old daughter, who was a full-time college student living at home and a full-time employee, told her mother she thought she was pregnant. After going to the doctor their daughter was contacted by several government assistance programs. These programs offered to cover the daughter's pregnancy and medical costs, give her and her newborn free medical insurance, free daycare, and a food program designed to help single mother's that covered all costs for children. With a tired face, she looks at me and says, "I've taught my daughter her entire life to study hard, work hard, and to earn the things you need in life. She's worked and made her own income and paid taxes since the age of 16. In one phone call, they took all those years of my parenting values and flushed then down the toilet. My daughter was being told by our government that she didn't have to work for any of those things, they'd all be given to her free of charge. Think about a 20 year old struggling to attend college full-time and simultaneously work a full-time job. That's an enticing offer."

One day while checking out in the grocery store, I was standing behind a woman that just happened to catch my attention. I'm a dick, so I was looking her up and down, and some things caught my attention. She's got on what look to be designer shoes, blue jeans with those fancy bedazzled ass pockets on them, a leather jacket, a gold ring on nearly ever finger, a gold necklace with a diamond medallion, this nice looking designer purse with 2 C's on it (whatever brand that is), some pretty damn big diamond earrings, and a leather beret to match the jacket. Even if all the brands and jewelry were fake, she was trying hard to look like she had money. Her groceries were all brand name items, some being expensive brands, like grey poupon type shit. While she's checking out she reaches behind her and grabs several candy bars and a couple cold drinks from the cooler and adds them to her groceries. She then reaches and pulls out her Louisiana Purchase card to pay for her groceries. Not thinking too much about it, I buy my $99 sour cream my wife couldn't have tacos without, and walk out to my car. On the way, I just happen to pass the same lady getting into a brand new Honda Accord. This lady dresses with an intent to look wealthy, drives a newer car than mine, and then uses my tax dollars to pay for her brand named groceries and junk food.

What are situations like these teaching our young people?

Do you feel that families making over $250,000 annually should take on a tax increase that will further fund government programs for the people in these situations?

What impact do you think government assisted programs such as these have on our economy, our national debt, and our strive for prosperity?

#1527645Post 2 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

some people will always take the piss out of the system clint. It doesnt mean there shouldnt be one to help those who really need it. A balance has to be struck.

Re the 250 K, yes I do think they should pay a higher proportion of tax.

Anyway, having discussed this with Americans many times over the last 4 years I have come to the following conclusion. You either think that government should play a role in improving the lives of the people in a country or you want them to organize your protection and then leave everyone to it. If you think the latter then your thread is basically a pointless exercise, and if you think the former then it's merely a discussion about how it's best achieved.

#1527659Post 3 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

oh yeah, and you can get a pair of fancy jeans like that in TJ maxx for 5 bucks. Not everyone shops at Dillards you know ;-)

#1527828Post 4 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=unrecogniseduser;976542]some people will always take the piss out of the system clint. It doesnt mean there shouldnt be one to help those who really need it. A balance has to be struck.

Re the 250 K, yes I do think they should pay a higher proportion of tax.

Anyway, having discussed this with Americans many times over the last 4 years I have come to the following conclusion. You either think that government should play a role in improving the lives of the people in a country or you want them to organize your protection and then leave everyone to it. If you think the latter then your thread is basically a pointless exercise, and if you think the former then it's merely a discussion about how it's best achieved.[/QUOTE]

well that about sums it up.

#1527853Post 5 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

When "improving the lives" becomes "make them dependent upon a handout to survive," we begin to run into problems. Also, when the taxation becomes oppressive, rebellion from the producers is not far away.

#1527867Post 6 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=floridaorange;976795]well that about sums it up.[/QUOTE]

why thank you 8)

#1527868Post 7 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=vinnie97;976832]When "improving the lives" becomes "make them dependent upon a handout to survive," we begin to run into problems. Also, when the taxation becomes oppressive, rebellion from the producers is not far away.[/QUOTE]

first line is where the balance needs to be struck. exactly what i am saying. nothing to do with whether the programs should exist

#1527908Post 8 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

I'm all in favor of helping people in need. Obviously I would never want anyone to suffer because of lack of food, medical treatment, or shelter. I think it's fucking crazy that there are people in this country that have multi-million dollar homes with several luxury vehicles in the garage, and then we have homeless digging through trash for food and the unemployed losing their homes to foreclosure. On the other hand, there are families that live on welfare and other government assistance for generation after generation. They are perfectly able bodied people who in fact could work and earn a paycheck, they just choose not to. The people like this who cheat the system is my concern. However, regardless of the reason someone needs/uses government assistance, I do not feel like it is right for a government to force a person or family with a certain income (that they deem "rich") to pay a higher percentage of tax because of that income. This is when we start teetering on the change to communism/socialism. Hey, sure it may be fucked up if someone who can afford gold ceilings in their house not to donate money to charities or help the needy, but that is their freedom given to them by our countries founding fathers. It is here, that they start to change the fabric American was founded on.

#1527910Post 9 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

When one benefits more from a society, it is acceptable from them to contribute more. "With great power comes great responsibilty" quoth Gandalf.

#1527928Post 10 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

It's acceptable for them to have the right to contribute more, not made to.

#1527941Post 11 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

communism/socialism, lol.I think you've been watching a bit too much Fox News there...almost all countries have staggered taxation. Nothing communist about it. Like I said, either you want funded public services or you dont. If you do, then you elect the government who, among other issues, you feel will best spend the public purse. The level of poverty in the US is disgraceful for such an affluent country and something needs to be done to address it. Various things will be tried, some will work better than others, and governments will be judged by how their success or failure is viewed by the majority. Democracy at work...Communism is a 1 party state that is unnaccountable

#1527960Post 12 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

you have the right idea, unreg, ideally. what i am seeing in this country is the voters being successfully fooled. youv'e hit the nail on the head with our poverty level(directly proportioned to the crime rate, over-crowded jails, and welfare) being a disgrace. unfortunatley from where i sit in middle america, this is not an issue and people are not connecting the dots that it is this exact gap in the classes that is most responsible for our economic woes. if you talk to MIDDLE CLASS people about balancing the scales (higher taxation, more corporate accountability, stricter regulations) they call u a communist.

#1527962Post 13 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Corporate accountability, I'm all for that. Higher taxation and stricter regulation, it most definitely depends. If small business is facing overreaching regulations (the HC"R" bill is having that effect, even after Pelosi promised 400,000 jobs upon its passage) that cut further into their bottom line so as to make them hire fewer or worse, lay off a portion of their workforce, then we obviously don't get a desirable net effect.

#1527963Post 14 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[ATTACH=CONFIG]6693[/ATTACH]

#1527965Post 15 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Very suspect graph since it doesn't include the attack on the sovereign state of Libya.

#1527973Post 16 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

I hadnt realised this was a Bush vs. Obama thread.

#1527985Post 17 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=unrecogniseduser;976983]I hadnt realised this was a Bush vs. Obama thread.[/QUOTE]

Its not but rather than being angry about people being given money to survive...perhaps it would be more productive to look at the tax profile of United States...who pays what tax and how did you end up at this level...high spending low income...i.e. corporate and high grade taxation. Should be the rich paying social welfare not the middle class...that is how social democracy is intended to work...anyway I don't want to be bogged down in discussion just thought it puts things into perspective...

#1527997Post 18 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=Shpira;977002]Its not but rather than being angry about people being given money to survive...perhaps it would be more productive to look at the tax profile of United States...who pays what tax and how did you end up at this level...high spending low income...i.e. corporate and high grade taxation. Should be the rich paying social welfare not the middle class...that is how social democracy is intended to work...anyway I don't want to be bogged down in discussion just thought it puts things into perspective...[/QUOTE]

the thing i really dont understand about the US is the employment law and the attitude of normal people towards it. In many states normal working people (on say 40-50 k) can be terminated from their job with no notice and without reason (maybe just because the economy goes bad). Then, it is these people, who have potentially most to lose if the economy goes bad and their number comes up, who are the ones who moan most about unemployment benefits for the poor. It seems to me that people are so blinded by their contempt for the poor that they will actually vote against their own interests...crazy.

In a semi related issue, In Austria where I am now my friend just lost his job at a big company. For the first few weeks he gets 80% of his former salary in unemployment benefit, and this reduces fairly quickly to a subsistence level. This is a real safety net because it gives him reasonable time to find a new job without having to move out of his place immediately and sell all his shit. For this, (and many other things I should add) I am happy to pay 30% of my salary in taxes, because next month it could quite easily be me...

#1527999Post 19 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

i just re-read my own comment above and realized that it might read like i am criticizing the arguments put forward by other people in this thread and putting words in their mouths. This is not my intention, i just got rambling and find it difficult to stop on issues like this, which is why i tend to leave them well alone...

#1528001Post 20 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

i agree with what you said...

#1528050Post 21 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

let's keep the topic focused on redistribution of wealth, not your hatred of the GOP...

#1528055Post 22 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

I want to take this moment to thank all who are contributing to the political discourse in the politics section lately. It's really a breath of fresh air, interesting and educational. A far cry from what was. Thank you :)

#1528074Post 23 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

True, it makes an easier go of it in here.

And to recent posts, I'll just post this revealing graph from another thread:

[img]http://politisite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Guess-Who-Really-Pays-the-Taxes.jpg[/img]

This also makes me wonder what percentage they've been responsible for in the past when the rich faced higher taxation if the percentage is that high today.

#1528080Post 24 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=vinnie97;977137]True, it makes an easier go of it in here.

And to recent posts, I'll just post this revealing graph from another thread:

[IMG]http://politisite.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Guess-Who-Really-Pays-the-Taxes.jpg[/IMG]

This also makes me wonder what percentage they've been responsible for in the past when the rich faced higher taxation if the percentage is that high today.[/QUOTE]

this is kind of the point tho isnt it? why are those around the middle paying a higher proportion of their earnings that those in the top 1%, i.e. the millionaires?

#1528125Post 25 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=unrecogniseduser;977145]this is kind of the point tho isnt it? why are those around the middle paying a higher proportion of their earnings that those in the top 1%, i.e. the millionaires?[/QUOTE]

Yes!

#1528142Post 26 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

On the rate of percentage taxed on each income bracket, I see yall's point. But 37% of say a million dollars is more than double of 57% of 250,000. And I guarantee you that top 1% makes way more than one million. The point of the graph is to show you that the top 1% pays the most money in taxes by far. It's just a shitty way if showing it.

#1528146Post 27 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=clintlove;977231]One day while checking out in the grocery store, I was standing behind a woman that just happened to catch my attention. I'm a dick, so I was looking her up and down, and some things caught my attention. She's got on what look to be designer shoes, blue jeans with those fancy bedazzled ass pockets on them, a leather jacket, a gold ring on nearly ever finger, a gold necklace with a diamond medallion, this nice looking designer purse with 2 C's on it (whatever brand that is), some pretty damn big diamond earrings, and a leather beret to match the jacket. Even if all the brands and jewelry were fake, she was trying hard to look like she had money. Her groceries were all brand name items, some being expensive brands, like grey poupon type shit. While she's checking out she reaches behind her and grabs several candy bars and a couple cold drinks from the cooler and adds them to her groceries. She then reaches and pulls out her Louisiana Purchase card to pay for her groceries. Not thinking too much about it, I buy my $99 sour cream my wife couldn't have tacos without, and walk out to my car. On the way, I just happen to pass the same lady getting into a brand new Honda Accord. This lady dresses with an intent to look wealthy, drives a newer car than mine, and then uses my tax dollars to pay for her brand named groceries and junk food.[/QUOTE]

Regarding this, yes this is shit. This person is most likely screwing the system and she should be punished if it is proven. No doubt about it. The guys that lived next door to me in NOLA had no car, no new clothes and almost no food a lot of the time. I remember telling you that one they borrowed 30 dollars from me for a week to get by. These are the people that need the help...

#1528158Post 28 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Salary of the US President - $400,000 includes a 50,000 expense allowance Salary of the US Vice President - $230,700 Salary of retired US Presidents - $180,000 Salary of House/Senate members - $174,000 Salary of Speaker of the House - $223,500 Salary of Majority/Minority Leaders - $193,400 Salary of US Chief Justice - $223,500 Salary of Associate Justices of the Supreme Court - $213,900 Salary of US Federal District Judges - $174,000

Guess who doesn't pay taxes? (Congress members do have to pay into Social Security but don't have to retire under it - FERS) Real easy for government officials to decide how much to tax wealthy Americans to help them pay for the national debt, when they don't have to pay any taxes at all.

Average Salary of a US Soldier deployed in Afghanistan and Iraq - $38,000

#1528159Post 29 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=unrecogniseduser;977236]Regarding this, yes this is shit. This person is most likely screwing the system and she should be punished if it is proven. No doubt about it. The guys that lived next door to me in NOLA had no car, no new clothes and almost no food a lot of the time. I remember telling you that one they borrowed 30 dollars from me for a week to get by. These are the people that need the help...[/QUOTE]

Agreed.

#1528161Post 30 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Ooh, Ooh... Just throwing this out there. What if people on any type of government assistance, excluding the disabled, were not allowed to vote? If you are getting government assistance that pays for you to live, who are you going to vote for? The candidate that will continue to give you or increase that assistance. It's a locked in vote for that candidate.

#1528192Post 31 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Yes, it's asinine, sickening and further stokes the fires of class warfare. Those who voted for the current occupier because they wanted some from his "stash" are just as sick as those who circumvent their tax duties so as to not pay their fair share.

#1528198Post 32 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=clintlove;977251]Ooh, Ooh... Just throwing this out there. What if people on any type of government assistance, excluding the disabled, were not allowed to vote? If you are getting government assistance that pays for you to live, who are you going to vote for? The candidate that will continue to give you or increase that assistance. It's a locked in vote for that candidate.[/QUOTE]

silly, lets stop rich people voting because they will vote republican if they promise continued tax breaks to the rich. works both ways.

#1528199Post 33 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=vinnie97;977290]Yes, it's asinine, sickening and further stokes the fires of class warfare. Those who voted for the current occupier because they wanted some from his "stash" are just as sick as those who circumvent their tax duties so as to not pay their fair share.[/QUOTE]

if people don't vote in their own self interest then what do they vote for?

#1528207Post 34 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Point taken. However, there are far less "rich" people than there are people on some type of government assistance. This may surprise alot of folks, but not all "rich" people are republicans either.

Speaking of rich, how much money does a family need to take in annually to be considered rich in ya'lls opinion. At the moment, the Obama administration is saying $250,000. Do you agree with that?

#1528210Post 35 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

imo 250 k is really really good money. Noone in the history of my family has had a salary like that i can guarantee you. I thought we were well off when i was getting 55, but anyway it will be calculated on some statistics or other and then rounded to a the nearest 50 K or so. I haven't been following it all really since we moved away.

#1528211Post 36 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=clintlove;977309] This may surprise alot of folks, but not all "rich" people are republicans either.[/QUOTE]

"Rich State, Poor State, Red State, Blue State: What's the Matter with Connecticut?"

This book explains that the rich states vote democrat but in the poorer states the rich vote republican. In the book the author explains that this is because in the poorer states partisanship divides people more than in wealthier states.

[IMG]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0691143935.01.SX220_SCLZZZZZZZ.jpg[/IMG]

#1528212Post 37 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=clintlove;977309] not all "rich" people are republicans either.[/QUOTE]

certainly not

#1528215Post 38 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=floridaorange;977313]"Rich State, Poor State, Red State, Blue State: What's the Matter with Connecticut?"

This book explains that the rich states vote democrat but in the poorer states the rich vote republican. In the book the author explains that this is because in the poorer states partisanship divides people more than in wealthier states.

[IMG]http://ec1.images-amazon.com/images/P/0691143935.01.SX220_SCLZZZZZZZ.jpg[/IMG][/QUOTE] So why are liberal havens like NY, Chicago, LA and Detroit all in various states of bankruptcy (aside from international banker looting)? You are counting these metropolises as being in rich states, are you not?

Smells like a book of generalizations.

Unrecogniseduser, the problem comes when a politician makes promises out of thin air to these people who have been reliant upon government handouts all their lives. The trough is dry.

#1528218Post 39 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

[QUOTE=vinnie97;977320] Smells like a book of generalizations. .[/QUOTE]

Forgive me sir but I am going to listen to the guy who's a Statistician and professor of statistics and political science and director of the Applied Statistics Center at Columbia University. Who also happens to have a mathematics and physics SB degree from MIT and a PhD in statistics from Harvard. Mr. Andrew Gelman only has 3 Outstanding Statistical Application awards from the American Statistical Assoc.

Oh and is also an elected fellow of the American Statistical Assoc and the Institute of Mathematical Statistics.

#1528239Post 40 of 60

Re: The redistribution of wealth

Is he qualified? :)

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