Re: God does exist

how do you account for the fact that your church does not acknowledge sentience amoung non humans when in fact, you can tell when a dog is excited, sad, dreaming. or how a cat knows to run from said dog. they clearly have sentience.

if you were referring to sapient, a term used to explain human self awareness, then that is a different story, thats because we can see, touch, hear, feel others.

Re: God does exist

[quote=geoffgulley;383940]... i'm definitely bringing a bible to wmc next year..... it'll be fun![/quote]

there will be one in your hotel room ;)

Re: God does exist

I am trying to answer the posts in the order they come but you have to take into account there are many of you and only one of me.

I am doing that because I am trying to respect the questions people are asking here because I do not want them to think I am ingoring them ahem...ahem...

I will be posting the facts I claim as soon as I can but please keep in mind that some of them are very lenghty and very in depth and I am tyrping them in word because I am writing a book on the subject

All I ask is for you guys to have patience as you well know this is a very in depth topic that has been around for ages and can take some time to explain.

I will offer a good website if you are interested to browse as it is time for me to go to bed.

[URL]http://www.apologeticspress.org/[/URL]

I must make a disclaimer abou this website though because to not do so would be a discredit to me. The individual by the name of Dave Miller is a known false teaher on the specific topic of marriage, divorce and remarriage. However the information on this website is very interesting and informative and I am willing to bet that you can find many of the answers to your questions here. But please do continue to ask me questions as it keeps me sharp and increases my studying. And I like to hear your responses on the various subjects. In fact this website may increase your questions you may have so I encourage you to bring them here for me to discuss.

Re: God does exist

wow man. do you own a suit of armor and a family crested sheild? maybe some peasants you allow to work your land in exchange for a room? a stallion and lance?

dark ages.

Re: God does exist

[quote=thesightless;383955]how do you account for the fact that your church does not acknowledge sentience amoung non humans when in fact, you can tell when a dog is excited, sad, dreaming. or how a cat knows to run from said dog. they clearly have sentience.

if you were referring to sapient, a term used to explain human self awareness, then that is a different story, thats because we can see, touch, hear, feel others.[/quote]

I was just quoting what ruse said. I do not know off the top of my head what he defines sentience as

What humans have is consiousness - that is defined as self-awareness

Animas merely have what is called survival instinct. eat, reproduce, drink, very basic stuff that can not be compared to self-awarenes

Re: God does exist

go watch the video on MSNBC of the panda crying her eyes out after killing her cub. dont tell me she doesnt have a conscience.

Re: God does exist

[quote=speciale;383913]I am not questioning God's existence but a lot of what is written in the Bible are just stories.[/quote]

I hope you stick around and read this thread often because I am going to get very in depth here with some pretty interesting stuff.

I do have to follow a bnatural order in proving the claims of the Bible.

Re: God does exist

[quote=toasty;383923]Actually, you can easily debate the accuracy of those statements. The fact that the sun, moon, and stars all exist does not mean that the authors of the Bible were correct in giving God the credit. Their existence only proves that the Bible's authors were looking around and trying to give some meaning to the things they saw in the world around them.

Could the creation of the earth, sun, moon and stars be divinely inspired? Sure. But just the fact that they are there doesn't prove anything -- and the fact that the Hindus evidently got it wrong doesn't prove that the Bible must necessarily be right.

Logic just doesn't flow that way. It just doesn't.[/quote]

the facts that I refer to are smiply that the sun does govern the day and the moon the night and that the stars are for days seasons and the such. I am aware that this is not evidence as some would see it

I was simply giving an example of the process used to prove or disprove one claim against another of the same sort.

Re: God does exist

[quote=geoffgulley;383935]ask any jew and they'll tell you (for the right amount of money... joke) that the bible (old testament) was basically written to scare the shit out of them and make them fly right (or forget they were stuck in a desert forver)... funny, you see christians interpretating the old testament (like sean said, by jews for jews) but never see jews interpretating the new testament now do you?

...and yes, i stole most of that from lewis black.... who's jewish.... tada![/quote]

I am not sure if you were being serious but I will answer it anyway.

The broad and I mean very broad overview of the Bible is this. The Old testament is an account of someone is coming. The first 4 books of the New Testament are He is here. The rest of the Bible is He will return and here is what to do to prepare.

The Jews did not believe that Jesus was the Christ and therefore give no credit to the New testament and therefore have no need for it.

Re: God does exist

Before I sign off I want to ask one more question.

Do you consider evidence left behind as factual proof?

My answer is yes and here is why: I can know someone was previously in an area I just passed by smelling perfume or cologne. I do not have to physically see the person to know that someone was just there. Evidence is in our lives everyday. We use it to convict criminals, to know if someone did their job at work etc.

If my boss comes to me and asks did you fill out the proper forms for this requsition? If I say yes that is not enough for him. He needs evidence so I produce the forms he asked for.

So in claiming God exists I will be putting forth evidence left behind and piece it together just like science has done for its claims.

Sorry to cut it short but it is past my bed time.

Re: God does exist

the same topic again? can anybody who read all of this tell me if there's anything new or is it just the same stuff he posted before?

Re: God does exist

if you believe it, then it is true

aside from facts, truth requires you to believe it being true

so, if you believe in God, he exists, if you don't, then he doesn't. Problem solved. Stop posting in this thread. :twisted:

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383950]First - You can not prove to the scientific comminity that God created the earth because they do not accept the existence of God. They have to get over that hurdle first in order to understand the evidence that is left to prove that God created the earth.[/QUOTE] Are you actually serious here? Here's the problem I find you ignore with this kind of statement: Where's the proof of god's existence? It's quite weak to just dismiss proof of god's existence without even an explanation, ie. accept god's existence, then I'll prove to you that that god created the earth. :roll:

Am I missing something in what you said here?

Re: God does exist

he is an attorney , and a good one at that. dont get him started.

Re: God does exist

[quote=thesightless;384022]he is an attorney , and a good one at that. dont get him started.[/quote] :CrackUp:

cowardly, the type of explanation you're talking about here is called [I]ignotum per ignotum[/I]... learn a bit of logics before you start teaching others.

Re: God does exist

i had a nice chat on how he should handle this via PM. we shouldnt see any more nonsense. let the guy answer our INQUISITION>

Re: God does exist

good lord not again.
this is just painful. its like arguing with a pine tree...

Re: God does exist

[quote=day_for_night;384042]good lord.[/quote]

EASY!!

[URL]http://www.thechurchofgoogle.org/[/URL]

Re: God does exist

^ brilliant! I now believe in god.

Re: God does exist

I wish this thread would die :EatMe:

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383994] Do you consider evidence left behind as factual proof?

My answer is yes and here is why: I can know someone was previously in an area I just passed by smelling perfume or cologne. I do not have to physically see the person to know that someone was just there. Evidence is in our lives everyday. We use it to convict criminals, to know if someone did their job at work etc. [/QUOTE]

Of course it can be used as factual proof. The question is, "proof of what?"

If I walk into a room and smell perfume, that means that someone wearing perfume was in the room before me, probably in the fairly recent past. It does not mean that a specific person was in the room. It doesn't mean that God saw to it that the room smelled like perfume for my arrival.

I suspect that you intend to present various evidence of God in the world around us -- things that you think couldn't possibly exist without divine intervention, things that science hasn't completely wrapped its collective head around yet. The fact that science hasn't come up with an explanation yet, though, isn't affirmative proof of anything.

Looking back through time, there are limitless examples of things that once confused us but that we now understand. We once tried to cure people of their illnesses by bloodletting, FFS.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, I want to emphasize that this doesn't mean that God [B]doesn't[/B] exist -- it just means that you're not going to have any luck proving it empirically. It is a matter of faith, and any argument to the contrary is going to be hopelessly circular. Already, most every point you've advanced presumes the existence of God which, of course, is exactly what you're trying to establish.

Please, just believe in God, be happy, and quit approaching this like it's science.

Re: God does exist

[IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c140/Javadran/die-thread.jpg[/IMG]

Re: God does exist

[quote=speciale;384130]I wish this thread would die :EatMe:[/quote]

God will not allow that to happen ;)

Re: God does exist

[quote=speciale;384138][IMG]http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c140/Javadran/die-thread.jpg[/IMG][/quote]

Live Thread Live!!! :Howdy: :Preachin:

Re: God does exist

[quote=hulkhuss;384156]Live Thread Live!!! :Howdy: :Preachin:[/quote]

:evil:

Re: God does exist

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God[/URL]

Re: God does exist

if this thread dies it will be born again. jk

I hate to sound negative or that I do or do not beleive in god, or any religon for that matter, but I fail to see how you are planning to prove to anyone the existence of god. I fully understand that consiousness = self awarness and that there things that we as mere human beings cannot possibly fathom; however if we cannot fathom such things how can we possibly begin to understand enough to prove gods existence?

If you can prove gods existence in this thread I will be truly amazed. I consider myself a realist rather than religous (not saying I dont beleive in god because I can neither deny or prove his existence) I can only determine to be true what I can see, taste, touch, smell and hear. (again with the consiousness)

Good luck with your quest and hope this doesnt turn out the way I suspect it will (for everyone involved as these discusions always end on a bad note, especially when you have such an eclectic group of individuals from all walks of life and all countries) this should get interesting

Re: God does exist

First we need to establish some facts and go from there.

1. We exists.

There are only two possibilities that accompany this fact.

1. We were created. A )If creation is true then who or what created us will need to be established and all other claims proven false.

2. We are a result of some other method of existing commonly know as evolution. A) If evolution is true then the method needs to be established and all other claims proven false.

I submit to this examination of existence that we were created. I submit to this examination of existence that creation is a result of Jehovah the God of the Bible.

As the burden of proof falls on me I will be presenting statements, and claims from the Bible as it's biggest claim is that it is the inerrant word of Jehovah from here on out known as God.

If the Bible can be proven to be factual and infallable as it claims it is then inherently it will show itself to be the word of God through it's self-proclaimed truths therefore leaving God as the creator He says He is.

If it can be found to contain proven errors then it is not the infallable word of God and will be dismissed therefore dismissing the posibility that God is the creator He says He is.

I will be submitting this in parts as I have time and to also allow you to post any questions or comments.

Let us begin.

When it comes to the Bible no subject is more significant than the subject of the inspiration of the Bible. Rejection of the Bible's inspiration equals rejection of the Bible itself because it claims to be peculiarly and uniquely revelaed, inspired, and delivered to men by God. If the Bible makes this claim then in it's pages there must be infallable proof of this claim.

First lets look at the Bible's claims of it's inpiration in order to get an understanding of it's claim. [CENTER][B]Inspiration As Claimed By The Scriptures[/B][/CENTER]

"The Bible's calims about itself involve three important words: inspiration, plenary, and verbal. One does not read much of the Bible before he come to understand that it claims for itself the very concepts of origin and quality embodied in these three words." [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1](Dub McClish)[/SIZE][/FONT]

The word inspiration is found twice in the King James Version of the Bible. Job 32:8 reads, "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." 2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." In Job 32:8 "inspiration" comes from the Hebrew word [I]neshamah[/I], which means "to breathe". In 2 timothy 3:16 the word inspiration comes from word [I]theopnuestos[/I],which means "God breathed", or "breathed by God". Paul, the writer of 2 Timothy, is claiming that the written scriptures are a divine product. "...the Biblical writers are called inspired as breathed into by the Holy Spirit, so that the product of their activities transcends human powers and becomes Divinely authoitative. Inspiration is, therefore, usually defined as a supernatural influence exerted on the sacred writers by the Spirit of God, by virtue of which their writings are given Divine trustorthiness." [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1](Benjamin Warfield)[/SIZE][/FONT] "According to 2 Timothy 3:16 what is inspired is precisely the Biblical writings. Inspiratiion is a work of God terminating, not in the men who were to write Scripture(as if, having given them an idea of what to say, God left them to themselves to find a way of saying it) but in the actual written product. It is Scripture, the written text, that is God-breathed." [FONT=Times New Roman]SIZE=1[/SIZE][/FONT]

Let me sum this up. According to the Bible's claims, God is the only author of every single word in the Bible. Although he used imperfect men to pen the Scriptures, these men were preserved from error in every respect in everything they wrote.

I will present evidence for the Bible's claim of inspiration later but for now this serves as a starting point for the discussion.

Re: God does exist

Much greater minds than ours have struggled intellectually, scientifically, psychologically, what have you, over this subject, and along with most of the worlds greatest philosophers and scientists, most all eventually agree that there is such thing as "GOD."

Re: God does exist

[quote=cowardly dj;384266]First we need to establish some facts and go from there.

1. We exists.

There are only two possibilities that accompany this fact.

1. We were created. A )If creation is true then who or what created us will need to be established and all other claims proven false.

2. We are a result of some other method of existing commonly know as evolution. A) If evolution is true then the method needs to be established and all other claims proven false.

I submit to this examination of existence that we were created. I submit to this examination of existence that creation is a result of Jehovah the God of the Bible.

As the burden of proof falls on me I will be presenting statements, and claims from the Bible as it's biggest claim is that it is the inerrant word of Jehovah from here on out known as God.

If the Bible can be proven to be factual and infallable as it claims it is then inherently it will show itself to be the word of God through it's self-proclaimed truths therefore leaving God as the creator He says He is.

If it can be found to contain proven errors then it is not the infallable word of God and will be dismissed therefore dismissing the posibility that God is the creator He says He is.

I will be submitting this in parts as I have time and to also allow you to post any questions or comments.

Let us begin.

When it comes to the Bible no subject is more significant than the subject of the inspiration of the Bible. Rejection of the Bible's inspiration equals rejection of the Bible itself because it claims to be peculiarly and uniquely revelaed, inspired, and delivered to men by God. If the Bible makes this claim then in it's pages there must be infallable proof of this claim.

First lets look at the Bible's claims of it's inpiration in order to get an understanding of it's claim. [CENTER][B]Inspiration As Claimed By The Scriptures[/B][/CENTER]

"The Bible's calims about itself involve three important words: inspiration, plenary, and verbal. One does not read much of the Bible before he come to understand that it claims for itself the very concepts of origin and quality embodied in these three words." [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1](Dub McClish)[/SIZE][/FONT]

The word inspiration is found twice in the King James Version of the Bible. Job 32:8 reads, "But there is a spirit in man: and the inspiration of the Almighty giveth them understanding." 2 Timothy 3:16 reads, "All scripture is given by inspiration of God..." In Job 32:8 "inspiration" comes from the Hebrew word [I]neshamah[/I], which means "to breathe". In 2 timothy 3:16 the word inspiration comes from word [I]theopnuestos[/I],which means "God breathed", or "breathed by God". Paul, the writer of 2 Timothy, is claiming that the written scriptures are a divine product. "...the Biblical writers are called inspired as breathed into by the Holy Spirit, so that the product of their activities transcends human powers and becomes Divinely authoitative. Inspiration is, therefore, usually defined as a supernatural influence exerted on the sacred writers by the Spirit of God, by virtue of which their writings are given Divine trustorthiness." [FONT=Times New Roman][SIZE=1](Benjamin Warfield)[/SIZE][/FONT] "According to 2 Timothy 3:16 what is inspired is precisely the Biblical writings. Inspiratiion is a work of God terminating, not in the men who were to write Scripture(as if, having given them an idea of what to say, God left them to themselves to find a way of saying it) but in the actual written product. It is Scripture, the written text, that is God-breathed." [FONT=Times New Roman]SIZE=1[/SIZE][/FONT]

Let me sum this up. According to the Bible's claims, God is the only author of every single word in the Bible. Although he used imperfect men to pen the Scriptures, these men were preserved from error in every respect in everything they wrote.

I will present evidence for the Bible's claim of inspiration later but for now this serves as a starting point for the discussion.[/quote]

pine tree...like arguing with a pine tree.

Re: God does exist

:roll: not again PLEASE

Re: God does exist

1. The chance of having two Tuesdays in one week is ten times as big as the chance that this thread is ever going to produce any valid proof for any of the two camps.

2. Religion is a private thing. Keep it that way and show some tollerance. It doesn't matter what you call your god: a clean conscience is far more worth than living by the rules set out by whoever.

3. CDJ, apply for a missionary post in the Amazonian Jungle. You'll have more success there than here. Actually, the more I read your posts, the more I feel like converting to islam. It's fanatism and tunnel vision like yours that turned me away from the catholic church in the first place.

This thread is absolutely useless. How about discussing spirituality rather than trying to convert infidels and venting bullshit?

Re: God does exist

[quote=KinKyJ;384345]1. The chance of having two Tuesdays in one week is ten times as big as the chance that this thread is ever going to produce any valid proof for any of the two camps.

2. Religion is a private thing. Keep it that way and show some tollerance. It doesn't matter what you call your god: a clean conscience is far more worth than living by the rules set out by whoever.

3. CDJ, apply for a missionary post in the Amazonian Jungle. You'll have more success there than here. Actually, the more I read your posts, the more I feel like converting to islam. It's fanatism and tunnel vision like yours that turned me away from the catholic church in the first place.

This thread is absolutely useless. How about discussing spirituality rather than trying to convert infidels and venting bullshit?[/quote]

I am not trying to convert anyone. It is people like you that ridicule me day after day, post after post and for what? Not because I have done or said anything insulting to warrant such treatment. In nearly every thread I post in no matter what the topic religion is brought up and it is not by me. Then when I defend my position on whatever my comment is people post even more insults and basically treat me like less of a person because I use God as my basis for life.

I think you and a number of others should take a long look in the mirror as to why you insult as you do. I am fully aware (probably even more aware than most of you) as to why you hurl the insults at me. It is simply because you do not like God or the Bible, not because you do not like me.

Lets examine why people do not like God for a minute and I am willing to guess that you and many others here will fall into this category. God says do not drink alcohol. People like to drink alcohol so if they were to follow God they would have to give that up. God says do not use profane language. People like to use profanity in their everyday conversations to express their thoughts make jokes etc. People who follow God have to give that up also. How about drugs, dancing, and even promiscuity. That is the biggest problem people have with God. If you follow God you are to have one partner for life. Lets face it, people are not willing to give things up to follow God. Simply put God has rules and prohibitions and most people are tired of rules and prohibitions so they dismiss any and everything about God to ease their conscious. You have rules in your life every second of it and it does get to be tiresome. Do this, dont do that, go here, take this, stop that and whatever you would like to add here.

You have no idea who I am other than a follower of God. Sure my comments are based on a beliefe system and you should know that yours are as well. Have I ever insulted your system of beliefs you or anyone elses for that matter? The resounding answer is no.

I am not the one with the problem here. All I am doing is participating in a forum just as you and everyone else here. People have said in other threads that I should not post anything if it does not apply to music and yet they participate in threads about "nonsense", terrorism, jokes, and the list could go on. That is what is called a double standard. Lets talk about whatever we want but not let people talk about religion.

It boils down to this. As long as I am a member of this board I have as much right to post whatever comments, and toipcs I choose as equally as everyone else here. When you click on the thread and post you are participating as well even if it is to insult, it is still participation.

I hold no bad feeling to you or anyone else that insutls me because as I stated earlier it is not me you insult is is God and the system He stands for. You know that and I know that.

I enjoy talking about this with other people and reading their comments on God. I encourage you and everyone else to continue to participate and post comments and I will continue to sift through the insults and ridicule.

I will be posting a vast amount of information here and it willget very interesting in the near futuer. It will be a great debate and much wisdon will be put to the test for everyone who participates in this thread.

Sit back relax and be a little more tolerant of what other people use as their basis for life. You might find some things to be more interesting if you see them as simply knowledge and not see them as an attempt to change your life.

Re: God does exist

[FONT=Helv][SIZE=2]Go out and check a documentary call " who Wrote the Bible" [/SIZE][/FONT]

Re: God does exist

[IMG]http://funnypics.free.fr/explorer/public/gifs/fascination.gif[/IMG]

Re: God does exist

sorry, I thought this was the non-sense thread

Re: God does exist

[quote=speciale;384384]sorry, I thought this was the non-sense thread[/quote]

i thought we all signed up for a religious debate class :)

Re: God does exist

This is all so familiar...

What's the over/under on CDJ theatening to leave the forum and/or just disappearing once again?

I'm in for 4 days.

Re: God does exist

I'll take 3

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;384266]First we need to establish some facts and go from there. etc., etc.[/QUOTE]

Dude, let me begin by telling you where I'm coming from. My father is a minister, I was brought up in a religious household and -- although I suspect that my impression of what God is differs from yours -- I do believe in a higher power of sorts to the extent that I don't believe that things in the universe occur purely at random, that there is a guiding force of sorts. I wish you no ill will.

Setting that aside for a moment, however, as a person who makes his living dissecting arguments and following lines of logic, I read posts like your last one and it just makes my brain hurt. Looking at your argument from a purely objective, antiseptic standpoint, you manage to pack an alarming number of logical fallacies into your post. Straw men, false dichotomies, equating correllation and causation, etc. The conclusions simply do not logically follow from the arguments.

I don't have time to go through it in detail, but you really ought to go back and take a good hard look at it, because as it stands, it's a logical trainwreck...