edit If you want to skip the opening arguments and get to the subject click here and read on from there [URL]http://www.mercuryserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32788&page=5[/URL]

Since I have made the claim that God exists the burden of proof falls on me. That is common sense in any claim that anyone makes. It is up to them to prove the claim.

I will show undeniable proof of the existence of God. That does not mean anyone will accept God into their life. That is a choice made individually. However those who take the time to read this thread and visit it every now and then reading all the posts you will understand and the facts and proof will manifest themselves.

I have been participating in this forum since the first year it was born.I love the music just as much as everyone else here and that is why I endure the insults and ridicule I get for believing and following all the commandments of God.

I do not insult anyone here for their beliefs or opinions on any matters. I am fully aware of the fact that you have the right to chose and follow any belief you want as much as I do.

I am open to any question and will answer it with only facts. I do not deal with opinions on matters as they are not provable.

My hope is that anyone who follows this thread will understand why I know God exists and respect that.

Re: God does exist

My first question is this:

Can the truth be found on anything and everything?

Give me your answer and state why you answered as you did.

My answer is yes, the truth can be discerned on absolutely everythiing.

Re: God does exist

where's the undeniable proof? :p

[IMG]http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d178/koojoekaper/SouthParkGod.jpg[/IMG]

^ south park's god. :)

Re: God does exist

[quote=cowardly dj;383795]My first question is this:

Can the truth be found on anything and everything?

Give me your answer and state why you answered as you did.[/quote]Provided you have the right tools to your disposal, the answer imo is yes. With tools I mean scientific techniques only. The question however is whether we NEED to know the truth on anything and everything.

[quote]My answer is yes, the truth can be discerned on absolutely everythiing.[/quote]Why?

Re: God does exist

proof in the form of a question? :|

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God exists in the person. There are 50 bazillion religions out there, most with a different God. I can only beleive that God is what you make him to be.

Re: God does exist

I say the truth can be found on any subject because I have learned to look through opinions and use only facts.

Facts inherently are truths that is why they are facts. Can we agree on that statement?

Opinion: Blue is the best color. Fact: the sun shines during the day and not at night.

How does the question about truth apply to the existense of God? Well it is this: He either exists or He does not. There is truth to be found in that statement. Only one answer can be correct.

Re: God does exist

CDJ, I don't think the argument is whether or not there is a God - I think most of us would agree in the existance of a higher power in some form or fashion - but my problem has always been with the idea that the Judeo-Christian God is the [I]only [/I]God. I asked you a question in another post but never got a response, I'll just cut and past rather than retyping the whole thing:

You say you have proof - irrefutable proof - that the God of the Christian Bible is the one true God and all others are false idols. That's great - really, I'm happy to hear it. So you have your Word of God, you study and pour over this Word, you live your life based on this Word and, as far as I can tell from a house music message board, you live a good, fruitful, happy life. And at the end of your days hopefully you will pass feeling that you have lived a long, full, good life and proceed into the hereafter confident that you followed the right path.

Now I'd like you to meet Frank. He's a member of a small tribe hidden deep in the Amazon rainforest, totally secluded from the "modern" world. He lives in a handcrafted hut with his family among a number of other handcrafted huts filled with other families that make up his village. These people have never heard of Jesus, Noah, Issac, Enos, Judas, the whole gang - they have no idea what Sodom is, couldn't even begin to find Jerusalem on a map and haven't the slightest clue who God the Father is. They do believe in a divine order though and have an equally elaborate and detailed system of beliefs as any other organized religion. Frank has his Word of his God, he studies and pours over this Word, lives his life based on this Word and it is a good, fruitful, happy life. At the end of ol' Frank's days he is filled with the certainty that he lived a long, full, good life and proceeds into the hereafter confident that he followed the right path.

Frank's case is not some hypothetical situation here. Millions, if not billions of people throughout history have been a believer in something [I]other [/I]that your version of The story - they lived a honest, hard working, devotional life. They raised a family, guided their children to be honest, hard working, devotional people and were laid to rest feeling that they were faithful followers of [I]their [/I]version of The story. They did not worship your God (according to you the one and ONLY one true God) but the God they did worship filled them with the same joy and happiness, directed them to live just as honest and good a life, and supplied them with the same peace of mind and spirit that you enjoy. Yet according to you they are all.....wrong?

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383793] I am open to any question and will answer it with only facts. I do not deal with opinions on matters as they are not provable. [/QUOTE]

If you can do this, more power to you. The problem that has plagued these threads in the past, though, is that matters of faith are based upon, well, faith -- not fact. By their nature, facts elude them.

And by the way, "because the Bible says so" is not an indisputable "fact" -- it may consitute your "truth," but it cannot be held out as "fact," which should be limited to empirically provable assertions. There is an important difference.

My thought has always been this -- belief in God is, and will always be, rooted in faith. For the believers, that faith gives them comfort and improves their lives. I don't understand why it is necessary to try to take it a step further...

Re: God does exist

[quote]How does the question about truth apply to the existense of God? Well it is this: He either exists or He does not. There is truth to be found in that statement. Only one answer can be correct.[/quote]agreed, but that isn't a fact though... that is only a judgement with no provable answer. backing up toasty's comments; religion is based on faith, not fact.

the sun shines at night in alaska, btw. :)

Re: God does exist

this thread hurts my brain

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^ haha... agreed, but so does work. this proved to be the lesser of the two evils.

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too early!!!

Re: God does exist

go back to my question.

if you worked at the smithsonian, or for another agency that has unlimited scientific tools, and could repeatedly preform an experiment,

how do you prove to the scientific communitiy that god created earth? how do you prove a soul exists as opposed to what a brain really is, a series of chemical reactions ingrained into a central nervous system? how do we prove the 7 days theory (really a 6 day with a day off) as opposed to proven, verifiable theories of the big bang, and evolution.\

edit, i wrote, and waited, and waited, and waited,

[QUOTE] ok, lemee re-frase this. so i dont get biblical quotes.

if you had every tool imaginable for geological survey and study, AND, the tools to examine space as we have today, how do you disprove the fact the earth was a result of a large explosion of elements and a few million years of gravity and rotation around the suns sphere of influence.

then, using everything that, lets say Cornell medical center, has, how are you going to deny that human evolved from what we have named primates. i know for a fact that when you examine the DNA proteins it shows that we share a lot of DNA, and this can done for ANY human being and ANY primate.

[/QUOTE] i.e go back to the thread you blew up last time and read my question

Re: God does exist

[quote=cowardly dj;383816] Fact: the sun shines during the day and not at night.

[/quote]

C'mon man. The sun shines 24 hours a day, you just can't see it for 12 of them. :)

[quote=cowardly dj;383816] I will show undeniable proof of the existence of God. [/quote]

You will show it? In this thread? Or elsewhere. I'd really like to see it you have it.

Re: God does exist

i can hear that theme song in my head right now.

[IMG]http://www.consoleclassix.com/info_img/Jeopardy!_SNES_ScreenShot1.jpg[/IMG]

alex : ''this behavior happens when a person or animal refuses to address''

me:: '' What is avoidance?"

COMON>:?: :idea:

and yes the correct factual representation would be the sun shines on your current position on the planet roughly -8-12 hours a day depending on season and then continues to shine on the side of the planet that is facing the sun.

Re: God does exist

not avoiding anything... been at the doctor

Re: God does exist

You know what I meant about the sun.:oops:

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type away brother.i need to hear this. and if this turns out to be some stupid digweed is god joke, im gonna hold a satanic worship meeting on your front lawn every friday night at 11PM.

Re: God does exist

BSULLY 828

I am aware that the entire argument here is not centered around the existence of God. However there are some here who do not think He exists.

In order to understand why God is the only true and living God you have to understand the entire picture from creation to the coming judgement. If God exists then did He do what the Bible says He did? What about the other gods who claim to exist and be "the" god? Well to answer that you have to take what the Bible claims God did and then what the other god claims was done and weed out the facts form false claims.

Other religious books contain theories of the sky above that were prevalent in the times they were written

I will give an example. Lets put Gods claim of the sun and moon next to the Hindus claim, using the Vedas, sacred Hindu texts.

Hindu:

"the moon is approximately 150,000 miles higher than the sun and shines with its own light...the earth is flat and triangular...earthquakes are caused by elephants shaking themselves under it" We know that the moon is not higher than the sun, it does not shine with its own light, the earth is neither flat nor triangular and I would like someone to tell the relatives of the thousands of victims who died in the tsunami that elephants shaking themselves caused the earthquake that in turn caused the tsunami.

God:

[COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:14[/COLOR] And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days and years: [COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:15[/COLOR] and let them be for lights in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. [COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:16[/COLOR] And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [I][COLOR=#808080]he made[/COLOR][/I] the stars also. [COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:17[/COLOR] And God set them in the firmament of heaven to give light upon the earth, [COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:18[/COLOR] and to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

One can not deny these are factual staements. We know that the stars are used for signs, days, and years. The "lights in the firmament of heaven" do give light upon the earth. The greater light (the sun) does rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) does rule the night. These statements are self evident.

I ask you how many mistakes it takes to disprove a claim? One? Two? Five? Ten? If a text claims to be from a god then it should not contain any false teachings. Is that an agreeable statement?

Does this prove that Gos exists? To many it does not but it does give you a comparison and an example of how to prove or disprove a claim. Just use facts.

Re: God does exist

I am not questioning God's existence but a lot of what is written in the Bible are just stories.

Re: God does exist

what does zangerbob mean?

Re: God does exist

[quote=Huggie Smiles;383914]what does zangerbob mean?[/quote]

[URL]http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=zangerbob[/URL]

Re: God does exist

[quote=BSully828;383818]CDJ, I don't think the argument is whether or not there is a God - I think most of us would agree in the existance of a higher power in some form or fashion - but my problem has always been with the idea that the Judeo-Christian God is the [I]only [/I]God. I asked you a question in another post but never got a response, I'll just cut and past rather than retyping the whole thing:

You say you have proof - irrefutable proof - that the God of the Christian Bible is the one true God and all others are false idols. That's great - really, I'm happy to hear it. So you have your Word of God, you study and pour over this Word, you live your life based on this Word and, as far as I can tell from a house music message board, you live a good, fruitful, happy life. And at the end of your days hopefully you will pass feeling that you have lived a long, full, good life and proceed into the hereafter confident that you followed the right path.

Now I'd like you to meet Frank. He's a member of a small tribe hidden deep in the Amazon rainforest, totally secluded from the "modern" world. He lives in a handcrafted hut with his family among a number of other handcrafted huts filled with other families that make up his village. These people have never heard of Jesus, Noah, Issac, Enos, Judas, the whole gang - they have no idea what Sodom is, couldn't even begin to find Jerusalem on a map and haven't the slightest clue who God the Father is. They do believe in a divine order though and have an equally elaborate and detailed system of beliefs as any other organized religion. Frank has his Word of his God, he studies and pours over this Word, lives his life based on this Word and it is a good, fruitful, happy life. At the end of ol' Frank's days he is filled with the certainty that he lived a long, full, good life and proceeds into the hereafter confident that he followed the right path.

Frank's case is not some hypothetical situation here. Millions, if not billions of people throughout history have been a believer in something [I]other [/I]that your version of The story - they lived a honest, hard working, devotional life. They raised a family, guided their children to be honest, hard working, devotional people and were laid to rest feeling that they were faithful followers of [I]their [/I]version of The story. They did not worship your God (according to you the one and ONLY one true God) but the God they did worship filled them with the same joy and happiness, directed them to live just as honest and good a life, and supplied them with the same peace of mind and spirit that you enjoy. Yet according to you they are all.....wrong?[/quote] :Bingo:

Re: God does exist

[quote=toasty;383819]The problem that has plagued these threads in the past, though, is that matters of faith are based upon, well, faith -- not fact. By their nature, facts elude them.[/quote]

I agree with you in part. It is true that most people can not tell you why they believe God exists. IMO if a person can not tell you why God exists without evidence consisting of more than the statement(s) "He just does", or "because I have faith that He does" then I will stand firm in saying that is not faith at all. That is wishfull thinking.

If you follow this thread for a while,because it will take some time for me to outline all that I find to be factual about God, then you will, at a minimum, understand why I know God exists. My faith is not a blind faith in saying He just exists. I have researched the Bible and it's claims for several years now. I study constantly. I often spend 2-5 hours a day studying. I am in search of the truth.

I assure you that anyone who can not tell you why God exists has not done very much research and is probably one of those "sunday only" religious people.

Stick around and I will show you why I know He exists and it is not on blind faith.

Re: God does exist

[quote=Garrick;383823]agreed, but that isn't a fact though... that is only a judgement with no provable answer. backing up toasty's comments; religion is based on faith, not fact.

the sun shines at night in alaska, btw. :)[/quote]

I refer you to the answer I gave to toasty's comment

and Alaska is not considered part of the earth

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383911] One can not deny these are factual staements. We know that the stars are used for signs, days, and years. The "lights in the firmament of heaven" do give light upon the earth. The greater light (the sun) does rule the day, and the lesser light (the moon) does rule the night. These statements are self evident.[/QUOTE]

Actually, you can easily debate the accuracy of those statements. The fact that the sun, moon, and stars all exist does not mean that the authors of the Bible were correct in giving God the credit. Their existence only proves that the Bible's authors were looking around and trying to give some meaning to the things they saw in the world around them.

Could the creation of the earth, sun, moon and stars be divinely inspired? Sure. But just the fact that they are there doesn't prove anything -- and the fact that the Hindus evidently got it wrong doesn't prove that the Bible must necessarily be right.

Logic just doesn't flow that way. It just doesn't.

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383920] I have researched the Bible and it's claims for several years now. I study constantly. I often spend 2-5 hours a day studying. I am in search of the truth. [/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.alcor.org/Library/images/circular.jpg[/IMG]

Do you study anything else? Seriously, that's like listening to me tell you that I'm the Messiah and reading a book that I wrote to support my position.

[QUOTE=cowardly dj;383922] and Alaska is not considered part of the earth[/QUOTE]

I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that this should have had a wink or a smiley face after it, but if you're serious, please, please elaborate. ;)

Re: God does exist

and just because a group of JEWS, yes jews, not the church of christ or catholics, or muslims, wrote this

[QUOTE][COLOR=#008080]Gen 1:16[/COLOR] And God made the two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [I][COLOR=#808080]he made[/COLOR][/I] the stars also. [/QUOTE]

doesnt mean it happened.

here. i gave birth an hour ago.

is this true? nope. but it is written.

facts, not quotes from a work of fiction.

Re: God does exist

im sorry im getting testy, but you keep telling us you will give fact, and yet, we still wait. nothing you have written can be proven or disproven, yet pretty much 99% of science can be proven. and that disproves essentially all the major tenents of all religion.

for instance. we have found frozen corpses in north eastern europe of so called cavemen, we test thier bones and tissues and can prove that they are indeed human or an offshoot of the homo- genus. i.e. not homo sapien, but as close as evolution got them. we can look at thier DNA and then look at our dna, and verify the similarities. we can and have proven it took millions of years for the earth to form. we also have proof that life existed before adam and eve in DINOSAURS. we have thier bones, their DNA, and more.

Re: God does exist

ask any jew and they'll tell you (for the right amount of money... joke) that the bible (old testament) was basically written to scare the shit out of them and make them fly right (or forget they were stuck in a desert forver)... funny, you see christians interpretating the old testament (like sean said, by jews for jews) but never see jews interpretating the new testament now do you?

...and yes, i stole most of that from lewis black.... who's jewish.... tada!

Re: God does exist

just the facts. [IMG]http://nightlight.typepad.com/nightlight/images/jack_webb.jpg[/IMG]

Re: God does exist

Your argument above does nothing but show that the words attributed to "god" within the bible are true, but in saying those things you're already accepting the assumption that god exists and actually did say these things. Where are the actual facts that prove god exists (not that what people claim is god's words are true)? If I say the world is round and it so happens to be true does that prove I'm god?

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... i'm definitely bringing a bible to wmc next year..... it'll be fun!

Re: God does exist

imma dress in a frock and walk around with picklemonkey, MJ dub and anonin so ppl think im molesting children

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=geoffgulley;383935]ask any jew and they'll tell you (for the right amount of money... joke) that the bible (old testament) was basically written to scare the shit out of them and make them fly right (or forget they were stuck in a desert forver)... funny, you see christians interpretating the old testament (like sean said, by jews for jews) but never see jews interpretating the new testament now do you?

...and yes, i stole most of that from lewis black.... who's jewish.... tada![/QUOTE]

I could tell you from many many years of yeshiva that that just isn't true or alternatively, if you were to ask less fundamental/religious christians they'd tell you the same thing.

Re: God does exist

[QUOTE=geoffgulley;383940]... i'm definitely bringing a bible to wmc next year..... it'll be fun![/QUOTE]

We'll just circle the sins we commit as they happen (let's try and circle the whole thing)...it'll really make confession for those of you who do much easier! ;)

Re: God does exist

[quote=thesightless;383845]go back to my question.

if you worked at the smithsonian, or for another agency that has unlimited scientific tools, and could repeatedly preform an experiment,

how do you prove to the scientific communitiy that god created earth? how do you prove a soul exists as opposed to what a brain really is, a series of chemical reactions ingrained into a central nervous system? how do we prove the 7 days theory (really a 6 day with a day off) as opposed to proven, verifiable theories of the big bang, and evolution.[/quote]

I will be addressing various aspects of your questions periodically throught this thread. For now I will give a quick answer to them.

First - You can not prove to the scientific comminity that God created the earth because they do not accept the existence of God. They have to get over that hurdle first in order to understand the evidence that is left to prove that God created the earth. At best I can offer you my evidence denying specific claims of the scientific community. One of the things I will be addressing in this thread is some of the various aspects of science vs. the Bible. Please stick around and they will unfold as quickly as I can find time to post them. Some are very lenghty and in depth.

Second - the brain is exactly what you say it is, chemicals and electrical impulses. The brain is only the physical aspect of the two halves of the human experience. The key here is consciousness. That is the one single thing that science can not account for. I plan on posting a great deal of information on this subject. It is probably my favorite when it comes to the science vs. God debate. For now I will give you some quotes from noted scientists who are not in favor of the consciouness being called a soul if you know what I mean.

"The problem of consciousness has been identified as an outstanding intellectual challenge across disciplines ranging from basic neuroscience through psychological to philosophical, although opinions vary widely on the chances of acheving a solution." (Zeman, 2001)

"Why do we have "sentience", as we might call it? Why do we have the capacity of self-awareness?... Why is it that, what is essentially no more than a bunch of atoms, should have thinking ability?...I'm afraid that at this point we start to run out of answers. The Darwinian qua Darwinian is reduced to silence. This is not to deny the existence of consciouness. Anything but!... The point is that as a Darwinian, that is to say as a scientist and an evolutionist, there seems to be no answer. (Ruse 2001)

I am going to have to get back with you on the 6 day theory because in order to do that I have to disprove evolution which is a process I will be going through in depth as this thread progresses.

Re: God does exist

forget all of this. i have definite proof God exists:

[IMG]http://www.intriguing.com/mp/_pictures/grail/large/HolyGrail049.jpg[/IMG]

"arthur, arthur, king of the britons.... oh stop groveling, if there's one thing i can't stand it groveling. and quit saying your sorry. it's always 'sorry this and forgive me that'".

Re: God does exist

[quote=cowardly dj;383950] I am going to have to get back with you on the 6 day theory because in order to do that I have to disprove evolution which is a process I will be going through in depth as this thread progresses.[/quote]

still zero verifiable, concrete proof, but this should be fucking good. someone meet me at the bronx zoo so we can tell the apes and gorillas and monkeys they dont really exist.